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Thread: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    In Raja Yoga training, as well as Buddhist/Shambala meditation training, I have learned and experienced that mindfulness (concentration of thought) comes before reaching emptiness - the Silence between the Thoughts.

    I see Mindfulness as a step towards Emptiness. Or what Petanjali calls in his "Yoga Sutras": .... citta-vr̥tti-nirodhaḥ - stopping the ripples of the mind (free translation).

    Concentration, as in the 6th limb of Raja Yoga (Dharana), or during concentration on your breath, the Shambala Meditation way, is a beneficial tool to eventually reach Emptiness (Dhyana), or Complete Realisation(Samadhi/acquiring truth), or whatever you want to call it.

    First learn to concentrate on one thing, and one alone, like a mantra, an object, your own breath, or even your feet in Walking Meditation (meditation in motion). Then let that thought go and experience the silence between the thoughts.

    When the moment of total silence or absence of thoughts gets longer and longer, one can even experience the "sound of silence", or the high pitch/tone of awareness.

    Don't worry, thoughts will come, sooner than you want, but you will become more compassionate towards your thoughts and you will learn to watch them from a distance, like visitors coming to your house. Welcome them at the frontdoor, and show them the rooms where they can meet the other equal thoughts (worries, irritations, shopping lists, bills to pay....), .... close the doors and walk away.
    Then wait for the next visitors. And they will come. Busses full of them
    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 2nd August 2019 at 12:35.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    This reminds me of Dilgo Khyentse who said "Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it"

    Quote "The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way.
    Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
    Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it."
    Oh, yes, and perhaps in the same vein, there's this one from another Nyingma lama :

    Quote The purpose of meditation is to awaken in us the skylike nature of mind, and to introduce us to that which we really are, our unchanging pure awareness that underlies the whole of life and death.

    In the stillness and silence of meditation, we glimpse and return to that deep inner nature that we so long ago lost sight of amid the busyness and distraction of our minds.
    Now, I can't speak to Sogyal Rinpoche's recent "fall from grace" (so-to-say) but the above quote certainly "rings true" with regards to the Role our Mind's play and ultimately the (apparent) realization of the "Nature of Mind" (aka our "Natural State") eh ?


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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Clear Light (here)
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    This reminds me of Dilgo Khyentse who said "Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it"

    Quote "The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way.
    Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
    Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it."
    Oh, yes, and perhaps in the same vein, there's this one from another Nyingma lama :

    Quote The purpose of meditation is to awaken in us the skylike nature of mind, and to introduce us to that which we really are, our unchanging pure awareness that underlies the whole of life and death.

    In the stillness and silence of meditation, we glimpse and return to that deep inner nature that we so long ago lost sight of amid the busyness and distraction of our minds.
    Now, I can't speak to Sogyal Rinpoche's recent "fall from grace" (so-to-say) but the above quote certainly "rings true" with regards to the Role our Mind's play and ultimately the (apparent) realization of the "Nature of Mind" (aka our "Natural State") eh ?

    I followed some of Sogyal Rinpoche's "crazy wisdom" teachings at the Rigpa centre in Amsterdam and I must say, very refreshing. Lots of laughter as well. He's Buddhism’s bad boy

    My Yoga teacher used to say: "The enlightened yogi will one night sit in a pub, wearing a fur coat, drinking beers and enjoying women, and the other night he will sit in a cave wearing rags and drink just water..... and he is content both ways, as he's not attached to either lifestyle.

    Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche (1939-1987) who established the Shambala training method, was famous for his fondness for beer and women. His son Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche is not currently teaching whilst allegations of misconduct are investigated at this moment .......

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Chogyam Trungpa was a co-opt or takeover of the Vajradhatu organization of the 1970s, which was a similar concept of getting Dharma centers opened in the west--without anything "crazy".

    Most of the Kagyu are shocked, embarrassed, and apologetic about it turning into Shamballah and how it went.

    Many of his close associates testify "his mind was so pure/pristine" and so forth, but the question most of us ask ourselves is, how does drug abuse or sex abuse display Bodhi or intense compassion for the wellness of all beings?

    There has to be responsibility since Prajna or Wisdom of Emptiness is a Buddhist subterfuge for Shakti or Power, and so if I develop this, it carries the equivalent of a Mulla Kurumb to kill at a glance. It holds all the lesser powers such as subjugation. So for example it would not be much of a barrier to replace peoples' wills and personalities with something else.

    A modern equivalent which I am not going to link is True Buddha School. This has 5-6 million followers, and the head guy holds zero lineages. However his people speak of him as they did Trungpa--it doesn't matter because he is so pristine he really is a Living Buddha. I have read a few of the sexual allegations against him and they are not really that bad, as in nothing violent, but I do get a sense of dominance or using his celebrity to overwhelm a female's disinterest in having sex with him.

    Most of the Nepali Vajracharyas are not monks and lead an ordinary married life, and many of the Sakya are the same way. Most of the leadership has integrity. It is not exactly the sex or a beer that is the issue, it is a moral ground. Concealing abuse would make me think of you as a criminal. Messing around on a vow drags you to hell.

    Now if we say there is a moral ground due to responsibility with power, and the Ming Empire used Buddhist advisors, Altan Khan was subjugated. He passed the Great Wall and attacked Beijing. So what they call "Alliance with the Gelug" came later and they mention some funny business about only a disciple being sent to meet the Khan. But the tradition within Gelug says they cast subjugation spells all over him; and then we see a peace treaty resulted.

    This eventually had internal repercussions to Tibet, in terms of the Gelug becoming a bit too Mongol-authoritative. It is really the case that the schools are made of imperfect human beings that do better or worse jobs. The moral imperative is at least as important as any other aspect, perhaps more. We are not omniscient but we must try our best.

    Emptiness is never alone, but is half of an Androgyne, Prajna--Upaya. When done on a strong moral ground, Upaya or Skillful Means produces Great Bliss. The Prajna or Wisdom of Emptiness, which without Bliss is as cold as death, is a certain way of handling Shakti or Power. So then to say the Union of Bliss and Emptiness is more or less to say the Union of Bliss and Power. This is rather heavily veiled since, on the face of it, that sounds like the worst possible temptation and could be interpreted as drugs and sex captives. The criterion of truth in it remains the morality. The "certain way" lies in that the Buddhist method does not use Patanjali's Eight Limb Yoga, it may appear similar, but it is something else.

    Aside from the problems, if you did Shamballah even a little bit, then you are initiated into Prajnaparamita. That part is real.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Oh, with regards to the past apparent mis-conduct of certain "realized ones" as somehow being some kind of Crazy-Wisdom-like "skilful means" meant to shatter the illusions of, I'm presuming, ONLY their Female disciples, well, that seems indicative of their not having fully integrated / transmuted the Divine Feminine Energies eh ?

    But whatever the case is, or rather was, as far as I can concerned (putting all of the various lineage affiliations and "battles" to one side) : it's our Natural State that is of prime importance, because once you are clearly knowledgeable about it, remaining as that in ALL the circumstances of Conventional Life is more than enough, I feel, to be "getting on with" (so-to-say) ... LOL

    But then again, on the other hand, given its Dynamic Spontaneous moment-to-moment Energetic Manifestations, there is simply no room left for some-one, like a WHO, a little-self, to make the claim of being a Master of all that eh ?

    In any event, I'd say Buddha simply means being Awake, divorced from ALL Conceptualisations, nakedly Aware eh ?

    Last edited by Clear Light; 3rd August 2019 at 10:46. Reason: A couple of amendments

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Regarding Buddhist and other religious ethics ...reminds me of my younger days before the start of this Millennium.

    I saw the emergence of new religion that will unite the most important, fundamental principles of all major human religions but surpass them in its spiritual elevation,
    embracing the differences of various groups and kinds of humans ..

    I saw it will necessarily emerge spontaneously through declarations and consciousness of many. From where I see it now it won’t happen any soon or fast,
    it may have to evolve over next thousand years at least

    Current religious systems including the Buddhist Sangha rooted deeply in the mentality of past 4000 years resonate with different stages of human evolution as they seem to preserve those various timelines indefinitely,
    the Big Time is ticking for the planet and human beings.

    Buddha or even Jesus did not teach a lot about human evolution but they did make prophecies about possible timelines to emerge.
    It’s all that a prognostic can do in either case. There are many possibilities and to be honest to the truth, reality is much more surprising, faster and stranger than fiction.

    Humanity is not a “status quod”. Its biological make up and intelligence structure and functioning evolve rapidly depending on relationship with environment, nature and nurture.


    Future “religion” of mankind will be more less “Universal” in my opinion, based in equal respect and love of Life and all its manifestations, surpassing differences - polar zones and extremes- and there won’t be any forced or even recommended practices or rituals involved, any “secret rituals” either, perhaps no secret rituals especially.

    It will be just set of Universal Principles at the end I feel that we all can respect.

    And out of the ethical principles such “Universal Religion” won’t target human free will, personal appearance or wellbeing in any manner, it won’t be a controller of human society.

    In its current form most religious groups who claim their origin in deep past are strongly biased to one or another side, in my best observation.
    Whether it is “matriarchy”, “patriarchy”, “holy Children” hence also pedophilia cults, the way of polarity- duality is still a way of strong egos, master-slave hierarchies,
    secret passage of many aspiring worldly powers,
    it’s still a way of the beast that does not want to let go off the aspiring noble man so it invents new finicky ways to keep us in the duality game.

    I see our existence further will be more free ..


    not the other way around.


    It would have happened already...but there’s so much underlying emotions and instinctive urges preventing many of these human bodies from rising beyond who “they always were”.

    The past of humanity on this planet can’t be called quite purified quite yet ...

    and opening our eyes to the reality of 21st century AD, it’s kind of suffocating by its own fumes.

    Speaking of “emptiness”, the “awakening” of 21st AD automatically surpasses the awakenings of Buddha Shakyamuni. Awakenings of tomorrow again will surpass the
    current ones.

    It’s because we define ourselves foremost as living, changing, evolving and mostly conscious entity. We don’t exist as “statues” or some kind of steady state idioms,
    and even if we prefer steady state from evolution times to times we can’t prevent or stop ourselves from happening.

    Wish, may all the good teachers and yogis who walk far ahead developing clear insight to reality be a beacon of hope regardless, mirror to Space and image to no one ,
    helping us navigate from the chaos to clarity
    from myriads of deceptions to the truth

    in the Empty Space


    Mysteries of the Local Void: Scientists map a Vast Void surrounding Milky Way



    🌟🌟🌟

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    ....... The "certain way" lies in that the Buddhist method does not use Patanjali's Eight Limb Yoga, it may appear similar, but it is something else.

    Aside from the problems, if you did Shamballah even a little bit, then you are initiated into Prajnaparamita. That part is real.
    You are right shaberon. They are not the same and I experienced that all too well.

    After years of study and practicing Raja Yoga (Eight Limb Yoga), which is based on the Yoga Sutra's of Petanjali, I felt I really missed something, as it is mainly a mental development. It's about self-knowledge and self-control. I started to feel cold and empty. An undesired emptiness in this case.

    The Dharma brought me the Heart, the third H of Head, Hand and Heart. It made me feel more complete. The circle became round.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    After years of study and practicing Raja Yoga (Eight Limb Yoga), which is based on the Yoga Sutra's of Petanjali, I felt I really missed something, as it is mainly a mental development. It's about self-knowledge and self-control. I started to feel cold and empty. An undesired emptiness in this case.

    The Dharma brought me the Heart, the third H of Head, Hand and Heart. It made me feel more complete. The circle became round.
    Awesome, that is good to find when someone holds the knowledge "for themself". Otherwise, it would be a belief. It may seem abstruse to many people but Dharma is the law of love, although usually you see the word "compassion" attached to Upaya or Skillful Means, in which case it is called Karuna. The use of "compassion", I think, is to distinguish it from a wistful or helpless love, it is active and makes results. And again, the English word, mind, is difficult, because mainly the way we use mind is meaning Bodhi Mind of the heart, not the psyche.

    This does not mean Patanjali is incorrect or doesn't work, again, it is a sort of moral judgement, to say Buddha Dharma is a superior guide, by teaching the heart not as an emotion but as a living power. I have also tried other Yogas and Ekankar and so forth, but, in the long run, this is home, and this realization is a large part of why.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    There’s much that could be said( from my perspective at least) about the misuse of mind-energy “free transmissions” and the teachings of various Higher Yoga Tantras and empowerments since they left their original homeland.
    But as a matter of fact: there’s no historical date when it all started, long before Buddha Shakyamuni.
    Whenever Oneness (of individuality) is conditioned and interpreted in dualistic manner, it falls to the duality ruling this world.

    Pure Being is Vajrasattva( or Ardhanishvara) because we all contain both gender qualities in ourselves, that is in each of us.
    They are indivisible, no matter whether they manifest as Yin or Yang on outside, the other is always latently( or manifestly) present.

    Most of the genuine instructions concerning sexuality were originally given in secret( but call it privacy) to wealthy students who were actually married or, well the lowest classes of students we commonly know only as prostitutes by volition.

    So called “Vajra caste” in India were of the lowest castes in India- blacksmiths caste, hard nuts in short. People who worked with iron and fire and dirt so did not have prejudice and so many “cultivated habits” of the more educated classes.

    Later Vajrayana ( Vajra is a name for diamond, thunderbolt, penis and many other related items , did I say penis 😆 , Yana is the “Way of going” aka transport means) turned to powerful trend and widespread group mostly because it opened the direct way of instructions to people of all castes and creed and genders.

    It’s especially associated with generating “tummo” or psychic heat. If you understand this in the right context of respective environments and have an idea of diversity of human biological makeup here on this planet, it will give you better sense.

    In India for example( but true also for many other “hot climatic zones” inhabited for thousands of years by humans) people lived and worked in the hot climate long enough to adapt to it. Their metabolic rate is generally faster than of people from cold North.
    Their body temperature oscillates around 37C unless they’re cold or ill, their organism turned them to heat processing engine. With fast heart and metabolic rate everything in the body happens faster, birth and death, digestion, temper changes and energy transformations, of course.
    There seems to be a common misconception about feats of psychic heat practiced and developed for cold “Himalayan caves”. It can be generated by anybody, true ...but still, the best of Himalayan yogis usually came from the South and there’s important feature to melting energies in accomplished way that only happens in hot climates.

    If you are born in far North or even not so far but generally colder climatic zones there are features of yogic practice you won’t experience, at least not in the same spontaneous manner.

    The Nordics have built saunas but compared to overall climatic heat lasting for days and months it’s like building AC rooms in the South.
    It is certainly helpful and takes some pressure off but it’s not the same.


    Back to Vajrayana, an accomplished master can guide anybody through personal instruction, true, provided the conditions for practice are accomplished.
    Masters without accomplishments keep giving empowerments and instructions to groups( sometimes crowds) of disciples who are sometimes completely different in their nature, very often in language they barely understand, is not Vajrayana.

    It is a puppet show for spoiled n rich, mostly.

    I’ve not been party to disseminating the teachings in the West in such manner. Intuitively avoided it. It may be fun and blessing but if you want to get any closer to the source you’d have to come to India , actually and be able to practice here under guidance.
    Not to mention that qualified guidance is very difficult to find and most of the true yogis accept their path as their guide, for lifetime.


    The rest of what’s happening with higher yogic teachings and techniques worldwide falls to vow breaking category, in my perspective.
    You get guilty by stepping in ( tongue in cheek)

    Guilty by prostrating in front of someone you don’t know really well( but everyone does it there). Even if you totally mean it, the master won’t get off to pick you up more than anyone else.
    I’m against prostrating people on the ground without it would make a good heart sense. Among adults this happens rarely.
    Other than that, making bows or beating people with sticks because someone else does that is spiritually, gross mistake.

    The rest of what happens in the room is an avalanche of “noble errors”.

    Good theater and nothing more except for two or three highly evolved students who have done the meditation, remember the past lives and simply, keep continuing their practice perhaps.


    Jump 60 years back to realize none of these masters wished to be where they are at the first place. They did not want to do this at all.
    Giving secret instructions to unprepared students constitutes breakage of the sacred vows.
    They were pushed out of their monasteries, turned refugees, escaping the brute force of Chinese “liberation army”. Their wealth was spent in couple of years before they became dependent on Western patrons to maintain their status and living as teachers.

    Most of them refused to go anywhere for long as they could. Firstly in Tibet, then in the spiritual homeland of India.
    Secular people are more likely to run somewhere for better life, monks and nuns not so.
    Giving some of these empowerments and teachings to Europeans say, 100 years ago would be mostly a no go, with couple exceptions. They’ve practiced and preserved the tradition for generations of unbroken lineages.
    Their true masters seldom spoke a lot or had many students.

    Just by talking a lot everyday( as common in secular society) much of your yogic and meditation practice loses its chance of accomplishment.
    People use it as a “supplement” to their life style, then turn it to entertainment.

    Yogis practiced in silence for years. There’s no accomplishment waiting for those who take meditation practice for “supplement” only. You can become supple for sure, get better wits, sense of humor and so on, by supplementing thus 😀

    From what I’m aware of, many of the yogic masters who went or were sent to teach to foreign countries did so after much inner struggle and to say it straight, out of despair and empathy for their own people.
    It’s when you see MANY people dying, being punished despite they’ve been the humblest and most benevolent creatures on Earth you know, you will do about anything that may help.

    At least I wish those prospective students made some sentient effort towards the knowing the unknown.
    For example, every effort should be made to explain the matter in language appropriate to people of today so they can actually follow the protocol/method.

    I suspect most of the teachings were given in traditional manner so that students could make just about half sense of it. It completely depends on the teacher and “how much” do they want to teach and give out, actually.
    Yogic techniques are pretty much a science rather than some mysterious faith and should be practiced with full awareness.

    Even the most simple teachings and meditation techniques can be conveyed individually if there’s true and sincere interest, followed by practicing them they bear unmistaken results.

    There’s something wrong that happened to all this being converted to public doctrine.

    One fairly ancient lama I won’t name, out of respect shared on occasion that (he thinks) the whole Chinese takeover of Tibet happened because too many sacred vows were broken( back then already).
    It happened again and again in history, people engaging in wrong way of practice, even with good faith brought the society down to their knees.

    Apologies to Clear Light, if this post proves to be very I will delete it or move it.

    My editing abilities are miserable yet, working from phone.


    Thanks if the above makes some sense to any of you, anyway


    With free smiles and blessings


    🙏🙏🙏
    Last edited by Agape; 4th August 2019 at 09:35.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Yes Agape very articulate and makes sense to me.
    My path got narrower and thus simpler Advaita Vedanta----only Brahman is and I am That.
    That Thou Art.

    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 4th August 2019 at 11:34.
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    This video goes deeply into what awareness is, and where it is located
    It may be a long talk but there is a helpful process in there.
    Awareness is an essential part of any meditation--you could say.

    Chris

    Swami Sarvapriyananda - "Astavakra The Heart of Awareness"
    This was the second lecture given by Swami Sarvapriyananda at RKVSNC on August 19, 2017. This lecture was a discourse on chapter 1, verse 12 from the Astavakra Gita/Astavakra Samhita:

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    Back to Vajrayana, an accomplished master can guide anybody through personal instruction, true, provided the conditions for practice are accomplished.

    Masters without accomplishments keep giving empowerments and instructions to groups( sometimes crowds) of disciples who are sometimes completely different in their nature, very often in language they barely understand, is not Vajrayana.
    Oh, on this point, I'd just like to say to anybody reading this : Yes you can receive as many "empowerments" as you like, even become an "Attunement Junky" LOL ... BUT there's a sequence of steps and stages to progress through whatever Brand of Spirituality you buy into ... now I'm sure any Sincere Practitioner doesn't need reminding of this but nevertheless, for newbies, it pays to do some proper Investigation into whatever Path you may be considering getting on board with ... but please don't fall for the "Love and Light" type of New-Age nonsense that will *not* Transform your Life as it does not put into place ways of really dealing with YOUR negative Emotions and Feelings and thus I'd say you'll just be wasting your time eh ?

    In "Duality" you can't have the Light without the Dark, nor can you have the Positive without the Negative, the Highs without the Lows etc etc ... the Real Question to begin with is : "Who Am I" ?

    Last edited by Clear Light; 4th August 2019 at 12:48.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)

    Back to Vajrayana, an accomplished master can guide anybody through personal instruction, true, provided the conditions for practice are accomplished.
    Masters without accomplishments keep giving empowerments and instructions to groups( sometimes crowds) of disciples who are sometimes completely different in their nature, very often in language they barely understand, is not Vajrayana.

    It is a puppet show for spoiled n rich, mostly.
    You must be summing up a lot of things here.

    The thing that puzzled me is why H. H. Dalai Lama went around the world giving something like 200 Kalachakra empowerments to crowds.

    Kalachakra is too big, too intense. To do it requires dedicating all day, every day to it. You have to do things like bathe in dirt and brush your teeth with kusha grass. It is an extremely complicated system with over 700 deities which for the most part are in a very different presentation than in the majority of other tantras.

    It probably is the most advanced teaching there is, but, the only way I know that it may be different is that it claims to produce Emptiness Body as well as Sahaja or Bliss Body available in the older and simpler tantras. I am not convinced, because, if you synthesize the commentaries, it seems more like an alternate way of doing the same thing.

    Its chief goddess is Viswamata, but, this is simply their name for Prajnaparamita.

    So if, like me, instead, you were at a Shamballah or other Kagyu center, they initiated you into Prajnaparamita. They didn't say that, there was no tantric procedure or any kind of "yoga technique", it just happened. How? Because they recite Heart Sutra, which contains Prajnaparamita's mantra, and is the main preliminary of deity yoga in any of the schools.

    They gave you the universal key. Nalanda Translation Committee Heart Sutra in pdf.

    Her full sadhana is one of few whose instructions are to study her text, Prajnaparamita, Perfection of Wisdom. She may also be used as a deity who, for instance, would employ the entire Kagyu Merit Field.

    The main approach of course is the rather literal Gelug philosophy called Prasangika, something like Emptiness is Emptiness. This is probably a better presentation to the public, since Emptiness is usually a difficult thing to understand. Dolpopa's "fringe" philosophy called Shentong is allowed in Sakya, Kagyu, and Jonang schools, and while I find it to be more accurate or complete, there is a greater danger to re-ify it, which has been mentioned before as a terrible sin, meaning "to make a thing of it", or to try to give it an objective existence like science would require. But it is still similar to the other teachings, in that you are given a series of concepts which have been found useful to help you enter a concept-free state.

    But in this case, the simple dharma center revelation of Prajnaparamita, although it came with little else, is vastly superior to receiving empowerment on a deity that you are not going to follow properly.

    If you mention Emptiness, at all, philosophically, it is Prajnaparamita. If you find it to be real in a yogic or meditative state, it is Prajnaparamita. If you follow Buddhism more throroughly, she remains in place, infinitely, there is not really progress except through her, Mother of All Buddhas. In other words, once you have the introduction, it is a permanent condition.

    The number of possible deities and mandalas is endless, but, in this world, we have been given a certain number that change us from deluded worldlings into Bodhisattvas. There is a general scheme it follows, with, I suppose, certain side branches that address individual strengths and weaknesses. People are broken and filled with varying degrees of fear, anger, and so forth, so if you are more neurotic, you would probably be given Eight Fears meditations, and if not, it would not be required. With enough of these outer, stabilizing processes, eventually one challenges death itself. This is not the end of the Path, but in all schools, there is an intermediate stage to uproot or eradicate death in the normal sense of the word.

    In order to do that, in all the schools, we use Prajnaparamita--even if taught as a book or philosophy rather than a deity--then Vajrasattva, which is Purification, although he has more abilities--and Guru. Most of us are never going to have any close bond to a living teacher, who would normally be placed as Guru. So we have to take what we are connected to--if Gelug makes more sense to you, then you would use H. H. Dalai Lama or Tson kha pa, if you can connect to Nyingma then it would be Padmasambhava, but for someone like me who has only a tenuous connection to Kagyu, it is the deity Vajradhara.

    Why do we have this? It is said that by Sutra-based meditation alone, accomplishment takes 300 eons. That is if you study Prajnaparamita and do the basic no-self meditations. The pattern of increasingly deep mantra meditation evokes power, which accelerates the process to only a few, one more, or even in this lifetime. The blessing is its danger. Mahayana is occult acceleration. It will force all of your rotten karma out of the subconscious, and hit you with it, very hard, on the objective plane. That should persuade you to quit making garbage.

    That is why the majority of mantra is slated towards protection and purification. The inner aspect is always just the unfolding and development of Prajnaparamita. She is also one of the few that the Tibetans class as a wisdom-giving or Sherab deity, meaning she enhances one's faculties. Two of the other Sherabs are Sarasvati and Manjushri. It could be reasoned that Prajnaparamita absorbs the Hindu Sarasvati, and both can be found to be the female aspect that unites with male Manjushri.

    These are Tathagata or Buddha Family deities, which means they can either constitute one's entire practice, or, they evoke the other Families, which simultaneously gives the possibility to train in another if more appropriate, or, makes all families operable. One would eventually settle into a main family that gives Enlightenment in meditation, while it is also the case that in the body and in manifestation, one must become able to use all families equally.

    I think there is a total difference between a puppet show for the rich versus the real Prajnaparamita given freely to people like the Dalits and me. The deity is no different than the Sutra philosophy but is much more powerful. She is the real esoteric or occult path. She was Aphrodite or Venus mysteriously arising from the sea, but we would have to say those schools are demolished. In Mahayana, she has been either the philosophy, or the main deity, continuously, since ca. year 200.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    I would actually also recommend studying the Patanjali Yoga Sutras to every aspiring Yogi, meditation practitioner, consciousness explorer and so forth, for starters,
    assimilating the precepts, stages and fruits of the Path since the formate of the message is most succinct, one of the oldest yoga instruction books known and passed through ages often as guarded secret.

    6 Yogas of Naropa practised in common within all systems of higher yogic teachings are specific offshoot of more ancient yogic system based in the understanding that everything is Light.

    More advanced yogis of past difficult to bring back to the day not only abided in Unity (Yoga) with the Universal Principles, but by understanding - direct insight- to the nature of Universe within and without they abided in Unity of Mind and Matter.
    Could dissolve their body at will, turn to rainbow, appear in two or many bodies at once,
    and so forth. Such feats were still observed and recorded though more rarely one or two centuries ago.
    Quite like Maggis or modern scientists, yogic teaching preserved not only the knowledge to base themselves in but also the way of right effort.

    They said we can go where they went too 😀🙏🌸🙏

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Ah, here's a quote I feel is relevant to this thread :

    Quote The nature of the mind has never changed ~ Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

    Thoughts manifest themselves within emptiness and are reabsorbed into it like a face appears and disappears in a mirror; the face has never been in the mirror, and when it ceases to be reflected in it, it has not really ceased to exist. The mirror itself has never changed. So, before departing on the spiritual path, we remain in the so-called “impure” state of samsara, which is, in appearance, governed by ignorance. When we commit ourselves to that path, we cross a state where ignorance and wisdom are mixed. At the end, at the moment of Enlightenment, only pure wisdom exists. But all the way along this spiritual journey, although there is an appearance of transformation, the nature of the mind has never changed: it was not corrupted on entry onto the path, and it was not improved at the time of realization.
    And :

    Quote The mistaken dualistic mind ~ Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

    All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy’s validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

    Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as ‘enlightenment’, ‘the nature of the mind’, and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.
    Now it may seem too Radical to assert BUT the "self" is a mere appearance, like an hallucination and our insistence on the fact of its "realness" is, I'd say, probably the "biggest of all the elephants in the room" eh ?


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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    I think of the cocoon of Life floating in the great Void, how frail it is bathing in the Empty Space. The Void has been surrounding us from ever devouring every living thing.
    We have to strive to survive. Being devoured by emptiness is what happens to most of people if you don’t care.

    The emptiness so empty. Ask why does Japan being one of the most advanced societies on the planet, at the moment have one of the highest suicidal rates per capita with all the taught love for empty.

    I’ve seen some very sad people attending these Zen seshins whatever you prefer to call it and they’re chronically sad. The only jokes many are capable of there are about how empty all is and how to hurt egos to the best degree.
    Some seem to be very sadistic and masochistic in their approach.
    The “hatred for self” turns to “hatred of life” and undiagnosed chronic depression easier than you count to 5. It’s so sad you’d cry of it.


    To get out of the great Void itself requires lots and lots of live effort.


    Find meaningful connection to others again and again, find the true vector and meaning of our existence here, it all requires effort.

    Once the “great empty” takes over people’s lives, sooner or later they’re done, their minds do not work anymore as they did, their willpower and intents, all the blessing and ability to be happy ceases.
    No roar, no drama, their aspiration of quiet disappearance slowly seeps to other people’s lives.
    Starting as sensitive humanitarians long ago, they turn hateful to every kind of life because it’s so frail, so transient, so empty.



    Emptiness is everywhere around us, make a little step to the side and you’re caught in it’s sweet sounding tune of Orpheus lyre, illusory but ever present call of the great sea of emptiness. The deep pathetic call bringing us to tears.

    Only the strong and courages can cross the great empty.

    Emptiness itself is empty and the religion of it, fairly everlasting
    It should not be followed unless you give your willing consent to something like depopulation of the planet.
    Not any soon but remember that every faith requires sacrifices to it, to declare itself full.

    Being a meditator doing nothing is not a real solution for depression, really.

    From life perspective Zen cults are just one polar extreme to the misgivings of human society.

    If you ever did couple years of meditation retreat you are meant to understand that “supreme accomplishment” would be shedding this piece of human coat,
    leaving it behind ,
    or ...perhaps ..starting a new life.

    The discovery of Life in the Universe beyond ourselves is going to be ultimately more important than just killing us mercifully for a dogma.

    Monk(or nun) symbolize impure ego. If you “want to be monk” or claim to be one, you are asking to be seen as such by this world.

    Life takes on all robes and appearances, Life is foremost about Being beyond self and great love and work to accomplish.



    🦢

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Oh, yes, if taken to an Extreme then yeah, sure, you'd probably seemingly "fall" into a type of Nihilistic-Emptiness, as in there literally is Nothing ... but that's not the Middle Way is it ?

    I'd say it's supposed to be like a Union of Emptiness and Compassion (energy), or Emptiness and Clarity, or some such togetherness depending upon the Path eh ?

    True Emptiness, I'd suggest, is like having the felt connection with the Base, the Ground of Being ?
    Last edited by Clear Light; 6th August 2019 at 10:53. Reason: Words, words, words !

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Who is aware of emptiness?
    Emptiness is not what it seems.
    It is empty of "things"
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    After years of study and practicing Raja Yoga (Eight Limb Yoga), which is based on the Yoga Sutra's of Petanjali, I felt I really missed something, as it is mainly a mental development. It's about self-knowledge and self-control. I started to feel cold and empty. An undesired emptiness in this case.
    Had that "cold empty" feeling too from doing self inquiry and stuff like that, until one day I remembered love, then it went away.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Who is aware of emptiness?
    Emptiness is not what it seems.
    It is empty of "things"
    Chris
    Well, respectfully Chris, I'd say "you" can't be Aware of Emptiness like you can be Aware of the sense of Depression, or of Hopelessness ... but interestingly it's the SAME Awareness present in ALL states of Mind because our True Nature is beyond all the machinations of the Mind ... The Emptiness teachings, per se, are meant like a Tool to unpick the Concrete-sense of "self" ... thus there is no "who" !!! LOL

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