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    Germany Avalon Member Iyakum's Avatar
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    Default Why are we lying ?

    Why are we lying?
    I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?

    We lie in fear, afraid of what others might learn about us. We are lying because we do not want to hurt someone we love. We lie to protect others, also we lie out of greed, envy, jealousy.

    But every time we lie this fear grows bigger, we lie to ourselves, sometimes so often and over a long time, so that we someday even convinced that the lie was the truth. The more we lie, the more we have to remember the lies, but as everyone knows, the truth comes out at some point.

    Only then what, then we invent a new lie or break everything together? ...
    Iyakum
    All the questions we have, all the answers we are looking for, about the meaning of life. Mother Nature, she has already answered, we just have to read it.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Everyone tries to solve problems, every day. It's at the very core of human existence, and always has been.

    But sometimes, a person might not think things through very well. A poor solution can very often become the next problem, and maybe an even bigger one.

    So someone who's broke might commit a robbery, or embezzle their company. Someone who's depressed hits the bottle, or hard drugs, and might become addicted. Enraged having discovered their partner's having an affair, someone might turn to violence. None of these solutions are very good ideas.

    And that's why people sometimes lie. It might seem the easiest way to solve a problem in real time: maybe a tiny one, maybe a significant one. But the rules remain the same: after that, they have another problem, and it could be a major one.


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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Quote Posted by Iyakum (here)
    Why are we lying?
    I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?
    There are lies that enter the moral domains which might be considered white lies. These are lies you tell someone in order to prevent further suffering and pain through which no further purpose would be served by them knowing differently. I would say these are judged by the intent behind them but it's a risky strategy and could backfire so the motives have to be of the highest order.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    I agree with Bill. Lies to solve problems no matter how big or small they are. Although it should work it is only an interim solution. I think the more time we spend, the more difficult it will be for us to lie.
    Only as Bill said, none is a solution, it could degenerate even more than help, even if the lie is still so small or was.
    Iyakum
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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Quote Posted by Peter UK (here)
    Quote Posted by Iyakum (here)
    Why are we lying?
    I would like to know your experiences, why you think, why we lie? Is lying part of humanity? Is it possible to live without lies? Are there any other reasons besides the ones I enumerate. What is your opinion about this?
    There are lies that enter the moral domains which might be considered white lies. These are lies you tell someone in order to prevent further suffering and pain through which no further purpose would be served by them knowing differently. I would say these are judged by the intent behind them but it's a risky strategy and could backfire so the motives have to be of the highest order.
    Thats the question. How will it end, if someone use the solution of liyng, of course it´s a risky strategy and as Peter UK wrote the backfire will show how it´s end.
    Iyakum
    All the questions we have, all the answers we are looking for, about the meaning of life. Mother Nature, she has already answered, we just have to read it.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    This may seem like a bold subject, but it's of fundamental importance.

    First, should be remembered that (plants and animals) nature is competitive as we know it, and both, to escape from predator or fool a prey, nature provides a means for (prey and predator) to deceive one another in a nature context where humans it's half vegetable, half animal, half human, half ET, etc. (just a way of saying)

    Second, in advanced stages of consciousness, mistakes are no longer possible to happen. Since the intention, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and the consequent actions are (naturally) seen as a single block, and thus, any Distortion is soon perceived, so that, it's no useful lying, disguising, concealing or omitting anything at all, because everything became clear from the beginning to the end.

    In this case, I refer to those who are already experiencing the process of "Desperticity", that is, if it's not yet fully awake, it's awakening up, and one of the fundamentals of this process is to solve all problems of self-corruption.

    ----

    Ethically speaking, the thread have well portrayed the issue of self-corruption in the following phrases, where we could (ethically) criticize that there is some lack of sincerity, or authenticity, but could be caused by a good intention.

    Quote Posted by Iyakum (here)
    We lie in fear, afraid of what others might learn about us. We are lying because we do not want to hurt someone we love. We lie to protect others, also we lie out of greed, envy, jealousy.
    Often, this intention of sparing the other is necessary, because not everyone is prepared to look at certain things as they really are, and no showing a truth to whom is not ready to assimilate it could be a wise thing, if the true can generate misunderstanding or even a unnecessary trauma.

    Anyway, if the truth is always relative, the lie is also relative ..
    Last edited by rogparan; 31st August 2019 at 19:10. Reason: bad english & clarity
    here I am, but I don't belong to this world
    So, nothing there are here belongs to me.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    The tricky thing with lying, for the good or the evil, is that one has to remember the lie (why and when).
    If you think you have to lie “for the better”, I think It’s wiser to be silent.

    If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything. (Mark Twain?)

    Sadly enough it’s true that when you mess-up your present, you will be the slave of your future.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Deux Corbeaux
    wise words you write. I asked the question to learn what exactly the meaning lies that we lie. It is also important for me to learn from others and their experiences. Sometimes, I have thoughts that are perfectly normal for other users. Only before I publicly give in a conversation something of me that testifies to ignorance, I prefer to ask in the forum. I have been carrying the question "why we are lying" for a very long time, today I remembered it and that's why I asked the question. I send a temporary thank you to all those who have so far made the effort to answer me.
    Iyakum
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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    When I was almost six years old, my mother was stopped by a policeman. While speaking with him, she told the policeman that we had only been living in Dallas for a few weeks (when I knew it was more like a few months). I was shocked. As she drove off, I asked her why she told the policeman what we both knew was untrue. She told me that what she did was called a "white lie."

    That was the day I learned that white lies were "OK." Over the course of the next several decades, my decision as to what should be considered a white lie expanded. Simultaneously I also ended up dealing with addictions that, of themselves, created great difficulties for others and myself.

    At one point I sought help and found it via what is known as a "12 step program." That program emphasized how important self honesty would be with regards to my recovery (and my ability to remain sober). I learned the phrase, "rigorous honesty." I had to adopt this specific operational protocol to become (and remain) sober. Sadly, there's a bad side to it. I can be "too open" and I can be "too honest." I also have trouble dealing with folks who aren't fully honest (which means most folks). I still find myself (at times) not being fully honest with myself and still, in the smallest of ways, with others. I then berate myself for failing.

    In every single case I find one, single common denominator. That which we call "ego." And to be clearer, I would point to that "lower self" that's all wrapped up in everything I can't take with me when this physical body passes and all the things I think are important that other people perceive about me. This is why I find myself lying to others and/or myself.
    Last edited by Sammy; 31st August 2019 at 19:31.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Thank you so much for posting this, Iyakum! I think about this a lot and keep returning to wonder if the spirit or mind would have any reason to lie, were it not confined by the material.

    Having been a very shy and private person most of my life, I think I have lied since early childhood to preserve or widen the barrier between myself and others.
    Fear, I think is a big part of it, especially when I was young, but the feeling of not wanting to be controlled and resenting infringement in my own personhood and choices was the usual reason as I got older.
    ...until I realized it was self-defeating, uncaring and pointless as a young adult...then when confronted with questions I did not want to answer, like Deux Corbeaux pointed out, silence seemed better. I thought, well there's
    a good solution!

    Finally, I dated someone very unusual who told me very early on in knowing him that lies by omission were still lies. It began an 'unraveling' for me of trying harder to be truthful being cognizant in the moments I feel compelled to hide... accepting myself and others as they are... being willing to share without fear...because in the end, that is really all I have to offer in this world... a sharing of experiences, viewpoints and a growing appreciation for everything and everyone around me.

    As I have gotten older, I feel more and more that one can choose to serve self or serve others, but one cannot pursue their mission to help others and pursue truth in the world, if it doesn't begin with truth at the self level.

    One of the last interactions I had with a family member who may be possessed (referenced in another thread), was to hear her say about me to the rest of the family and anyone else who would listen, "She is a liar. She has always been a liar."
    It hit me in my soul.
    Last edited by arborealis; 31st August 2019 at 20:24. Reason: left a word out

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Quote Posted by arborealis (here)
    "She is a liar. She has always been a liar."
    It hit me in my soul.
    Oooooof! I really felt that.



    So sorry that happened. That's the kind of thing that's kind of hard to 'unhear' — once someone's been so crass and insensitive as to actually say it.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Iyakum you covered most "reasons" why people are lying.
    Lies can indeed become a very loooong curved road.

    One additional big problem arises when one fights vehemently for lies of others.
    These can develop into witch-hunts.

    The road to freeing oneself from lies such as to be true to one self includes not acting on rumours and doing one's own diligent research.

    One interesting thing I recall, we were advised during my military service, to wait 24 hours before writing a report on a fellow comrade in order to filter out exaggerated additions.
    "The greatest good you can do for another is not just share your riches, but to reveal to him his own."
    -- Benjamin Disraeli

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    To add - it all comes down to Intent for me. What is the intention behind the lie (or behind anything)? The energy behind intention is what gets registered by the soul, and what we ultimately judge about ourselves (when the time comes). If when telling a lie the intent behind it is benevolent, in service to another, to defend them or protect them from harm, then that matters. If the intention is malicious, selfish, or ego-driven, then that's something else, and the difference matters very much.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Quote Posted by Michi (here)
    One interesting thing I recall, we were advised during my military service, to wait 24 hours before writing a report on a fellow comrade in order to filter out exaggerated additions.
    That should be protocol for most institutions.

    I lie to protect. And yet, I remember the lies told to protect me and I am resentful. So who am I really protecting?

    I struggle with lies by memory loss. I don't mean to lie, I just can't remember. I've had ECT done. I believe that's played a huge part in my mental capabilities.

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    To add - it all comes down to Intent for me. What is the intention behind the lie (or behind anything)? The energy behind intention is what gets registered by the soul, and what we ultimately judge about ourselves (when the time comes). If when telling a lie the intent behind it is benevolent, in service to another, to defend them or protect them from harm, then that matters. If the intention is malicious, selfish, or ego-driven, then that's something else, and the difference matters very much.
    I wonder what it matters when parents tell their children there's a Santa Clause... I was told that and when I found out, I recall not being very happy with my mother who was the one who played this Santa Clause game. I don't think she did that to be malicious, selfish, or ego-driven and I don't think she thought about her intent. It was a "cultural thing" that parents did when and where I was raised.

    And this is the question I have about "intent." How would any one person ever really know how wise, ethical and/or moral their intent really is? Its really only subjectively determined, yes?

    Here's a great example of how this can backfire. My father had a child with my step-mother when I was 20 years old. A year later she was dead because of pancreatic cancer and 3 months later, my father committed suicide. My half brother was adopted by my step-mother's mother who lived many states away. Years went by and I was, for the first time since ours Dad's death, able to see my half brother in the flesh when he was 12 years old. Then five years later he came to visit me and my family (as I had a wife and two sons at that point).

    We were driving in my car when the conversation went towards our father. And somewhere along the way I asked him how he was doing... how he had reconciled as to the tragedy of how he died.

    I heard silence and then glanced in the rear view mirror and saw shock on my half-brother's face. I pulled over and we talked. It was at that moment I learned, because he told me, that he had always been told Dad died of a heart attack. I saw my half-brother have to suddenly come to grips with the fact he had been lied to by the people he trusted the most.

    And worse, a few days later after he returned home, I was confronted by his mother's side of the family as to why I had to tell him the truth. Not only did they fail to acknowledge their own fault in not coordinating the lie with me but worse (and the actual point), they lied. Perhaps they realized I probably would not have gone along with it and worse, I might have made sure my half-brother knew the truth from as early as he would ever ask. But what surprised me the most was that when I spoke with their family representative, I was told this - [paraphrased] - "How could you possibly have told him the truth? We just assumed you had enough sense to know this."

    Amazing.

    And of course, this was the last time I spoke with any of them from that side of the family except when his grandmother (and the one who originally adopted him), at age 95, and clearly no longer remembering all this, spoke with me in the kindest way just before she passed on.

    Back to my father's death. If my half-brother ever obtained a death certificate for our father (as I have done), he would have seen "cause of death = suicide."

    Lies, when the truth actually comes out, always causes more harm than if the truth had always been made available. Always

    But think about all the above. As complicated as it all was and as justified (from certain pints of view it may have been), imagine if we all grew up in a world that simply and only always spoke the truth? Imagine how a world like that might also be populated with folks who were honest with themselves? Just imagine.
    Last edited by Sammy; 31st August 2019 at 23:26.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Avalon Member East Sun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Sometimes it's better to not tell someone that their Father or Mother committed suicide
    to prevent pain.
    Question Everything, twice or maybe trice..........

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    United States Avalon Member thepainterdoug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    East sun/ i do understand and appreciate you assessment. however, to prevent pain is to prevent what actually is. And so why stop there? as hard as it seems, the pain straight on could be less harmful than the truth withheld. why not continue to spare pain in all other aspects of their life ?.
    i think the problem is how we name things, bring meaning to good or bad. we are a slave to thoughts

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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Major lies as discussed above are ultimately damaging. Children deserve to know the truth, even if, at a young age they're told a disorted version to protect their growing minds. Later, they should be given the dignity of the full truth.

    But you have to lie now and then in this world. How about dealing with the irrationality of a huge company and a nameless faceless customer service rep on the phone, trying to win some results? Or--do you want to tell the "whole truth" to every cop that stops you, often for no good reason? To your boss, in some instances? No, I don't think many of us do want to give persons in positions of authority the whole truth about our intentions or our actions. This is where "lying" becomes protecting yourself and your loved ones.

    And even with friends sometimes--do we tell them the "whole" truth? Or do we sometimes leave out details, for whatever reason, things we don't want them to know. They call that dissimulation.

    The basis of a deep lasting relationship, with your lover, your closest friends and family is about openness. That doesn't mean you have to tell them everything but without truth it's a waste of time. With others, out there in the world, why should we tell them the truth--if they can use it against us?

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    Avalon Member O Donna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    All art forms to one degree or another have the element of lying/ deception at it's root. And in a mutual way, life intimates art and art intimates life.

    As above, so below.


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    UK Avalon Member Star Mariner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why are we lying ?

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    Lies, when the truth actually comes out, always causes more harm than if the truth had always been made available. Always
    As with everything it depends on the situation, because there's always going to be exceptions, but in general, I tend to agree. That was really tough on you and your family Sammy. It's a difficult one to call. But even when things do come out badly, it still comes down to intention.

    Let's say you have two people who each tell the same identical white lie, resulting in the exact same effect - the person goes along with it. But with one the lie was told innocently, to shield that person from harm. The other was told with secret cunning, with manipulation in mind down the road. These are the same on the surface, but very different underneath. And it's what's underneath that counts, the intent that matters – ethically speaking. Intention behind one's words and actions leaves indelible marks on the soul.

    Of course, good intentions don't always equal good outcomes, as you have seen. If it all goes wrong, has unforeseen negative effects, as it did with your father's secret, there's no bad karma on the soul, let's say, because the suicide lie (I'm assuming) was told with integrity, with protection in mind. But someone got hurt. What lessons did that teach your mother's side of the family? Perhaps prudence, perhaps forethought, perhaps the virtues of just pure honesty? Perhaps to open the heart and entrust another by sharing hard truths? Your half-brother on the other hand, who probably felt deeply betrayed by the lie, had his own lessons to grapple with. Perhaps how to trust, or just how to forgive.

    Everything in life is lessons, in receiving them and handing them out to others, even when we don't realise it's happening.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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