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    Default Space Elevator to the Moon

    This certainly reminds me of the devices described in some science fiction books... Apparently, this is now feasible and (relatively) affordable.

    Quote A space elevator to the moon could be doable — and surprisingly cheap
    New study suggests that a lunar space elevator could be built for about $1 billion using existing technology.
    Sept. 13, 2019, 4:30 AM ET



    Since the dawn of the space era more than six decades ago, there’s been just one way to get to the moon and back: rockets. But a pair of graduate students say we should now be able to ferry humans and cargo between Earth and our natural satellite via a sort of high-tech elevator.

    The idea of space elevators isn’t new; spaceflight visionaries have been talking about them at least since 1895. But Zephyr Penoyre and Emily Sandford envision a system that would be used not to ferry humans and cargo from Earth’s surface to Earth orbit — the goal of so-called classical space elevator concepts — but to provide transportation to and from the moon.

    In a study published Aug. 25 on the online research archive arXiv, the students contend that it’s technologically and financially feasible to build such a "lunar space elevator," which was first publicly detailed by Jerome Pearson at a conference in 1977 and by Yuri Arsutanov in a separate paper published in 1979.

    “It shocks me how cheap it could be,” says study co-author Penoyre, a graduate student in astronomy at the University of Cambridge, adding that the $1 billion it might take to build such an elevator “is within the whim of one particularly motivated billionaire.

    A very long cable

    Penoyre and Sandford, a graduate student in astronomy at Columbia University and a co-author of the study, call their lunar space elevator concept Spaceline. Its central element is a cable that would be anchored to the moon and span more than 200,000 miles to a point above Earth's surface — perhaps an orbit about 27,000 miles from our planet. (The cable of a lunar space elevator couldn’t be anchored to Earth’s surface because the relative motions of the moon and our planet wouldn't permit it.)

    As explained in the paper, the simplest version of the Spaceline cable might be barely thicker than the lead in a pencil and might weigh about 88,000 pounds — within the payload capacity of a next-generation NASA or SpaceX rocket. It could be made from Kevlar or other existing materials rather than the exotic and hard-to-make carbon-based materials that have long been seen as the key to building a classical space elevator.

    Future space travelers would use a spacecraft to fly from Earth to the end of the dangling cable, which would be held taut by Earth's gravity, and then transfer to solar-powered robotic vehicles that would climb up the cable to the moon. The voyage might take days or weeks. Return trips would simply reverse the process.

    Why spend hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars erecting a lunar space elevator instead of relying on proven rocket technology? Penoyre and Sandford say in their paper that the former might ultimately be more economical, especially for bringing raw materials back to Earth from moon-based mines.

    A paper published by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics estimated that a lunar space elevator system might pay for itself within 53 trips by transporting lunar materials to a space station between the moon and the Earth.

    Mining the moon

    For years, experts have been eyeing the moon as a potential source of valuable raw materials ranging from helium-3, a heavy version of the familiar gas that could find possible use in fusion reactors, to rare earth minerals like neodymium and gadolinium, which are used to make cellphones, medical scanners and other high-tech devices.

    A space elevator is like a railroad — you don’t build it unless you expect a lot of railroad traffic,” says physicist Marshall Eubanks, chief scientist at Space Initiatives, a satellite technology company in Palm Bay, Florida. He calls the calculations used in the Spaceline paper sound but cautions that Earth-orbiting satellites could collide with the colossal cable — a potential problem that could be mitigated by keeping the cable outside Earth's orbital space lanes.

    Despite their potential advantages over rocket transport, neither lunar space elevators nor classical space elevators have gotten much attention from space agencies or aerospace manufacturers. NASA has funded occasional studies on classical space elevator concepts since the late 1970s. But as of now there is no SpaceX for space elevators, even though companies in China and Japan have floated proposals for building classical space elevators by 2045 and 2050, respectively.

    “One thing that’s frustrating is the lunar space elevator idea doesn’t have much traction, and yet it’s a feasible idea and economically a game-changer,” says Space Initiatives CEO Charles Radley.

    Elevator debate

    Some experts say a classical space elevator might make more sense than a lunar space elevator, at least initially, because it could help facilitate exploration. For example, a classical space elevator might be used to assemble a huge spacecraft in Earth orbit and then launch it from there. Experts say that would likely be easier than launching the spacecraft from Earth, where gravity is so intense.

    But the classical space elevator would require a much stronger cable to withstand the higher forces exerted on the cable — and it’s unclear when materials strong enough and of sufficient length to make a suitable cable will be available.

    "The classical space elevator is a really tough problem, because the Earth's gravity field is so great that you need such strong materials that we don’t have right now," says Jerome Pearson, an aerospace engineer and president of Star, Inc., an aerospace company in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, and the author of several papers on space elevators. "On the other hand, you could build a lunar space elevator with existing materials right now."

    Given that concern, Pearson endorses the idea of moving forward with a lunar space elevator as a precursor to building a classical space elevator. "There are a lot of advantages with a lunar space elevator," Pearson says. "And with this new NASA program to return to the moon, there may be additional interest."
    From: https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna1051496
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    How do they avoid all the space junk from crashing into these?

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Right ,so this is a elevator strung out from the Moon towards Earth.
    So not much space junk their meeradas

    We would still fly up out from Earth the the end of the tether (some sort of stationary base platform, then jump in a lift to the Moon.
    Interesting
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Until the day a meteorite flies right through the thing destroying it on the way into the atmosphere I suppose it could work. Not so sure how the moon and earth can negotiate sharing a device attached to both physically. Doesn't seem possible.
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Thanks all for the comments.

    Another question I had is: If it's so simple and doable, why hasn't it been done already? Or perhaps it has :-)
    *I have loved the stars too dearly to be fearful of the night*

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    By the time there are operational shuttles between earth and space stations, there will be also shuttles between a space station and the moon.
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    It must be an elevator to space where you just you know, pop out the other end with a notice as the back door slams telling you which way to steer toward the moon and how far it is today. I would imagine there would times when demand for time in the elevator would be hotter like when the moon was right there so it's just pop away vs the other times always open for a trip where you have to circumnavigate 1/2 the earth diameter to get there! Pricing and life insurance per trip if you took the option would probably adjust day to day as the moon changes position also and hey there may be scalping of the tickets and all the deviant behavior associated with elevator time and even staged deaths where they send off an empty ship to let it you know, crash or burn or something and pretend they were on it.

    Call it a remote view of the future! :-) Truthfully it may be related to the med. weed I smoked earlier to relief some cancer treatment but whatever works right?
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    This will never come to pass. Not in the classic physics-macro-mechanistic way expressed by this idea.

    For instance, just think of the practical problems of providing food, water, rest and bathroom facilities for the travelers; not to mention the practical problems related to the construction, functioning, maintenance, etc... of the "space elevator" itself. Theoretically surmountable, but insurmountable in practical reality.

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    There is no known material that can hold its own weight without breaking over a length of a few, gonna guess, hundred miles. It is not the length that is the problem, we can pump out millions of miles of steel wire without a problem. But steel has a limit in tensile strength that is far exceeded by the length of 200,000+ miles.

    And if it were possible, it would not be thin, that much is for sure.

    Space elevator is not a new concept. Placing it on the moon might be.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    I've heard of carbon fiber being used instead of steel. Steel won't work for reasons mentioned above. With that, I don't believe carbon fiber would be strong enough, but I'm no expert.

    Is it possible other materials stronger than carbon fiber are available? Would we know?

    I found it interesting that Cara raises the question whether or not this has been done. The Moon? I'm not sure. Earth orbit? I can't rule anything out.
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    I have read on the internet in the past about fantastically heavy and large constructions being lifted into space using anti-gravity machines. why on earth would anyone wish to tangle with an idea full of possible disasters. It would be simply cheaper to produce whatever products are made of extracted mining materials right there on the moon and transport them back to earth on anti-gravity craft.

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Quote Posted by justntime2learn (here)
    I've heard of carbon fiber being used instead of steel. Steel won't work for reasons mentioned above. With that, I don't believe carbon fiber would be strong enough, but I'm no expert.
    Carbon fiber is significantly stronger than steel ─ and lighter than aluminium ─ but it too has its limits, and the cost of manufacturing it would be exponentially higher than if the thing were constructed from steel, aluminium or even titanium. That's why supercars that make extensive use of carbon fiber ─ McLaren, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Pagani, Bugatti, et al ─ are all so expensive.

    In fact, I saw a video yesterday with a Q&A about the new Bugatti Chiron ─ the currently fastest production car in the world, with an officially registered top speed of 491 km/h ─ and in said video, it was mentioned that customers can order their car with an entirely carbon-fiber body shell. Granted, it would be more expensive than needed because the aesthetics would demand that the carbon fiber threads of all the separate body panels need to be perfectly aligned, which demands a painstakingly meticulous devotion from the people making the body panels.

    But such a body shell ─ and mind you, we're now talking of something that looks like a car, but that's just an outer shell, with no engine, no gearbox, no axles or wheels and no interior ─ would cost the customer an extra USD $350'000. That's more money than what you pay for a well-equipped Lamborghini Huracŕn, McLaren 720S or Ferrari 488. Just for a body shell that's shorter than 5 meters in length, just over 2 meters in width and ─ without the ground clearance, because there are no wheels ─ about 1 meter in height.

    Either way, I think the proposal for a space elevator is insane. First of all, they are overlooking the tidal forces ─ it may be rooted at the moon, but it'll have to reach well within the influence of Earth's own gravitational field ─ and secondly, there is the cosmic radiation hazard. And then we're not even getting into all of the other things that people here have mentioned, such as criminal, geopolitical and strategic consequences and abuse scenarios.

    Just my two cents.

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Quote Posted by meeradas (here)
    How do they avoid all the space junk from crashing into these?
    I'm thinking about the STS tether incident - will our space brothers allow it?

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Until the day a meteorite flies right through the thing destroying it on the way into the atmosphere I suppose it could work. Not so sure how the moon and earth can negotiate sharing a device attached to both physically. Doesn't seem possible.
    Hi Ratszinger, it's not physically attached to the Moon and Earth, just the Moon.

    But yeah it's never going to be built.

    Having said that though, maybe smaller localised versions rising up from the Luna surface from mining operations.
    These would create fast turn around operations and ease the need for actual complex landings on to the Moon.
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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    The moon's gravity is 1/6th the Earth's gravity, or merely 17%. That means that for the same energy cost, six pounds can be lifted from the moon's surface for every pound lifted from Earth.

    An elevator makes no sense on the moon. A rail gun could easily shoot heavy payloads off the moon's surface for a fraction of the price. That's using off the shelf components - and not a whole new technology.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    By the time we would be capable of excavating material from the moon advanced ways of doing this will be found --elevator forget it--more like beam me up Scottie I suspect.
    We havent yet caught up with ancient advanced civilizations here.
    We cant even figure out how they quarried, cut, moved and placed massive stones in Pyramids and other buildings-walls all over the world.

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    If they could somehow manage to make a tube.........would not the vaccum of space just suck up anything placed in the tube?
    I picture a larger version of the tubes used to deliver mail and small items in the 1940's.

    It would not need to be very large....a continuous supply of small materials would be sufficient.....getting items to earth could pose additional challenges.
    Some posit our oceans have too much water......by maybe 400 feet globally. stick a tube/straw in it and deliver the excess to the moon! How anyone would prevent it from freezing and exploding is beyond me though....unless the sun somehow heats the tubes....?

    Interesting ideas....haha we could make space igloos!

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Assuming the technology exists, the ideal would be a carbon based nano material that would "extend" itself to an orbiting outpost, a 2 by 4 size would suffice, and serve as lift by having a platform attached to it. I would charge the nano material electrically to make the platform rise via electromagnetic pull. After the delivery on the outpost, the nano material could be either collected there or retract back to earth. Same technology could be used from the oupost onward I guess...

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    Quote Posted by CurEus (here)
    If they could somehow manage to make a tube.........would not the vaccum of space just suck up anything placed in the tube?
    Suction is merely the removal of a counterbalancing pressure to a pressure on the opposite side. So if anything is sucked up into a tube, then it's only because there is a pressure acting upon it from the opposite end, pushing it into the tube. Where would this pressure come from, when you're in space?

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    Default Re: Space Elevator to the Moon

    If I was looking into energy production in space I would consider taking advantage of the high contrast heat differential in space and any planets or moons without an atmosphere. Put up a shield to create contrast and use a gas that liquefies at low temperature and pump it from side to side (the pressure differential would take care of that) through an energy converter/ heat recovery system.

    With available energy anything would be possible, including electrolysis of water into oxygen and hydrogen - rocket fuel!

    Until we have a new propulsion system, this scenario or something similar will be what is used at least at first.
    Forget about it

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