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Thread: The Internet and The Shadow

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default The Internet and The Shadow

    The 'Shadow' here refers to the concept popularized by Carl Jung: that part of us (Jung said in all of us, dormant or otherwise) that's maybe a kind of inner 'dark side', that can emerge in certain situations and just take over the whole show.

    That's when someone's open, active behavior becomes unethical, immoral or even criminal. Jung strongly suggested that this is a potential for every one of us if certain circumstances were to prevail.

    One of those 'circumstances' may be the internet. Or specifically, the anonymity the internet affords.

    Like: supposing you could say or do anything you wanted to, confident you'd not get caught, and no-one would ever know? With that 'freedom', how might you take advantage of that?

    For some, that temptation (and there's no other word!) becomes overwhelming. And they then run riot on the net with duplicate accounts, false identities, lies, hoaxes, personal abuse, 'doxxing' (posting private personal information about others), and just about anything else.

    Then they become like little, invisible demonic entities, causing upset, hurt, trouble, harm and confusion wherever they go. And all very deliberately, too.

    Why do humans behave in this way, when they'd never ever do that if they were living under the same roof, or were all in the same room together? Even some sections of Avalon, which for many is a precious oasis of civility, kindness, sensitivity, understanding and intelligence, can occasionally become infected with distrust, personal unkindness, and sometimes worse.

    The mods do their best to ameliorate all this (and so do many helpful and supportive members!), but ultimately, humans will be humans. With all the baggage that entails.

    It seems we just have to live with that, whenever it happens.... do we?

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Yes. I learned this behavior from my mother. My friends were in fear of her because they called her crazy. She would sometimes just loose it, switching from my loving mother into a demon.

    I learned the method, to simply shut off the moderator, and let fly all those feelings bottled up inside me. I don't get violent towards people, but I have destroyed motorcycles, cars, wood projects, work projects and many other things I've forgotten since.

    My excuse, I don't know what my mother's is, is that we are in a secret war where the enemy is hidden. I know the enemy but no one else does. I want to fight, to turn it around, to destroy those who have transgressed against the human condition. But I'm not allowed to fight because no one else wants to. So I have to live in a world where the war goes on in a subtle way that requires guile and cleverness - I have neither of those attributes. Therefore, I am at a great disadvantage, I do not have the tools to live in a war zone and pretend like it is not, all the while being attacked by clever folks with all the right stuff to succeed in this pretend life.

    So sometimes I vent so I don't go insane. I have no guilt about it. Used to but guilt is something I was taught by the catholics in order to modify my behavior. I don't go for that so I have no more guilt.

    I am sorry this is the way I have learned to survive in a world that is not mine...but at least the only person I hurt is myself.
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 29th September 2019 at 17:10.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    ...

    Right on!

    It seems to me that these shadow-overtaken individuals are the 3D equivalent of these other trolls squatering one's mind and doing a similar job of bullying, nullifying and degrading others and which are also known as "evil spirits":

    The remedy, as with their 3D manifestations, it to manage to quit feeding 'em trolls... once one becomes aware of their existence and that something within oneself has attracted 'em to oneself in the first place (something they "resonate" with and can amplify undetected) which gives a clue as to what needs to be transformed or eradicated in oneself..
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    "Not being caught by another person" is a bit of cowardice in the face of "always seen by the Witness". Go on, commit more sins, as if you are an exception to "not a sparrow falleth". Yes, a machine can amplify the labor a hundred times, but I am not sure there is a huge rift between "they would never do that in person" and the fact that I, at least, have received no shortage of similar behavior in person. As a mod, the experience may be different if you are talking about a vicious shift on the part of someone you previously knew as reasonable and polite.

    The "thin social veneer" is a mental construct that is not particularly difficult to undermine. If one's "good" behavior was a compulsion, or done because it is apparently the "way to go", then it was not real, not genuine.

    There are a lot of humans who may appear intelligent, but lack souls. Someone who thinks it is ok to prevaricate is in some degree of ignorance, immaturity, or may be without soul.

    According to Yeshe Tsogyal, "Whenever consciousness is in the grip of an external object, it is under control of a demon". It is not possible to escape the Shadow when there is attachment to anything outside oneself. If a website is an external object, and there is clinging or aversion, then there is demonic activity. It's in everyone, just a matter of degree.

    In my experience--despite taking the Golden Rule to heart, and trying to "do the right thing when no one is looking", I have mostly in turn received mistrust, paranoia, and a stack of false accusations that is really deep. I have never found it backed by anything, other than such accusers feel they have achieved a "system of personal desires", in other words, because they can watch movies or something like that, their personal sphere is superior, and that gives license to say whatever they want.

    In this sense, there is something to the "Hannibal Lecter" character. He preferred to "eat the rude". He was polite and patient and never started stupid antics, but if you were rude, suddenly one day you were destroyed. So what would anyone say is the ultimate outcome or achievement of rudeness? They can "get what they want", perhaps thousands of times, but he is watching and waiting.

    I think it may be a western cultural thing. The ragged Tibetans and Bhutanese, despite poverty, floods, earthquakes, and so forth, are extremely resilient, generally remaining cheerful and pleasant. Here, if you get a million movies and never go hungry, you continue to snarl.

    They are blind in the following way: if I say the real person is the Heart, then this means, preferably, a smooth, harmonious feeling, call it the nervous electricity, at the core. So if I dwell in a calm heart, whenever another being is "in range", the instantaneous, unconscious communication is heart-to-heart, or, preferably, a smooth, even, electrical concordance. Many other beings cannot sense this, they perceive external signs and find delight in agitating the brain/body, they think your expressions of shock or disgust are entertaining. One of the best things is not to give them such an entertaining response.

    In person, at least, I can pretty much always tell if someone is "with it" or not, and if not, that is due to all the lies they live, in which case it is only a matter of time before something starts erupting. Online, it may be harder to discern; it is kind of like giving someone a gun, the machine allows them to express a violent tendency due to the false, external prop. Or a car, people drive like "me first" idiots all the time.

    We have to live with it, if I support "Free Speech" I cannot become a hypocritical suppressor, but that shows why I would not, under any circumstances, ever want to live in a "democracy".

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    Avalon Member Orph's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    In part, the reason some people act that way is because that is the way we are taught. Our parents teach us to not do certain things or we will be punished. Society teaches us to obey the law or we will be thrown in jail. Religion teaches us to follow God's commandments or we will end up in hell. .............. Do good or be punished.

    Using the threat of punishment to get people to "toe the line" doesn't teach goodness. It simply teaches people to be wary. In other words, the sin isn't the doing of the evil deed itself. The real sin is in being caught at it. So, .... if people were given free reign to do as they please and they choose evil, is it because we have a "dark side", as Jung says? Or is it more of a trained response to the "do good or be punished" mentality?
    I am enlightened, ............ Oh wait. That's just the police shining their spotlights on me.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    In my thirties I began a comparative study of philosophy, to determine which philosophers my own earlier independent musings had tended towards. Swedenborg I immediately dismissed. Kant came closest. The above video made me realize there is some value here. Amazing Grace and the rubber band technique have been filed for use.

    I see I might need to revisit these Jungian ideas...and maybe peruse Houman's thread, which I having a strong aversion to.

    There is a line of inquiry I am not allowed to broach. Every time I attempt it, I am side-tracked. I am aware of this block, know there is a certain specific idea I cannot follow, but cannot remember what it is. I remember it a few times a year, every year. But I can never get a handle on it, cannot flesh it out. It is not even all that disconcerting because I can't remember if it is even important...it has haunted me my whole life, I think even into childhood.

    I wonder if it is relevant and related to my crazy venting strategy?
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    One of those 'circumstances' may be the internet. Or specifically, the anonymity the internet affords.

    Like: supposing you could say or do anything you wanted to, confident you'd not get caught, and no-one would ever know? With that 'freedom', how might you take advantage of that?

    For some, that temptation (and there's no other word!) becomes overwhelming. And they then run riot on the net with duplicate accounts, false identities, lies, hoaxes, personal abuse, 'doxxing' (posting private personal information about others), and just about anything else.

    Then they become like little, invisible demonic entities, causing upset, hurt, trouble, harm and confusion wherever they go. And all very deliberately, too.
    This disturbing video explores taking “just about anything else” into the dark web. The topic is teenagers communicating with “strangers” on hidden accounts that parents are completely unaware of. The teenagers are essentially living two separate lives because their “private inner journals” are now alive journals in real time evolving in sinister ways to encourage flights of fantasy to become reality.

    The showcased mother is a registered nurse trained in psychology who never once saw any sign that her 15yr old was going to kill herself. The “anonymous people” the teenagers are communicating with can easily be labelled as “invisible demonic entities, causing upset, hurt, trouble, harm and confusion wherever they go. And all very deliberately, too.”

    This is a very dangerous 21st century dilemma that is escalating the rise of suicide and violence and we need to be vigil in our awareness of it.

    Thanks for the thread as it has many offshoots that intertwine.


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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    when discussing the nazi's in his presentations, jordan peterson is always quick to point out that we should view history not as the heroes we think we would be, but as the perpetrators. there is a strong chance that most of us here, had we existed in the nazi era, would have easily been guards, soldiers...or just civilians going along with the madness. the chances of us being heroes is very slim.

    but those guards and soldiers and civilians, one on one, in unguarded moments, would likely confess to the madness they were complicit in.

    as Bill often points out, if those of us arguing on the forum were put in a room with coffee and pastries, we likely would easily hash out whatever was causing the problem.

    point being: one on one, we can get along fine and even be harmonious. but in groups, irrationality and madness seems to spread like wildfire.

    we are less guarded about our shadows in groups. thus, the "mob mentality". the embarrassment one might feel in a one on one situation for doing something obnoxious vanishes when 1) others condone the obnoxiousness, and 2) the perpetrator of the obnoxiousness can then blend with a crowd of supporters and not be singled out as undesirable.

    the shadow is a mighty temptress. it's hard to be virtuous! and over time, it's akin to being on a very strict diet and then binging out of a sense of frustration.

    i think the shadow has to be expressed. it cannot be bottled up. that can be disastrous. humans have a natural tendency towards violence, for example. it doesn't mean we have go kill someone to express it. but we can take classes in mixed martial arts, for instance.

    the shadow needs to be expressed, imo, in a slow leak. just let it out here n there, minimally...so the desire to do something awful doesn't build and explode. i think most of our shadows are constipated.. so when they do emerge, they explode..and then it sets off a chain reaction, particularly in groups, with other shadows exploding. and then there's a real mess. that's the "mob mentality" according to me.

    the forum can get like that. and then of course there's the obvious thing of not having to face any immediate physical consequences for being an a$$hole. people can unload without any fear of reprisal. for people that have been fearful of expressing their frustrations all their lives, it's almost irresistible.
    Last edited by Mike; 30th September 2019 at 05:40.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    [...]
    ... a kind of inner 'dark side', that can emerge in certain situations and just take over the whole show.

    That's when someone's open, active behavior becomes unethical, immoral or even criminal. Jung strongly suggested that this is a potential for every one of us if certain circumstances were to prevail.
    [...]
    This is a crux of the matter that's downright scary due to its far reaching implied influence.

    To illustrate, here is another of those Swedenborg (1688-1772, way before Jung's time) interpretations of what's occurring in both world - spiritual and physical:

    There is a correspondence between Swedenborg, Jung and Laura Knight-Jadczyk's "Cs" STO-STS when transitioning from 3D to the 4D realm and doing the "work" here in order to secure some safer environment in 4D.

    It's a word of caution for people wanting to quit this world and zip ASAP to their "heavenly" relatives, family, friends, where everything is peachy, etc...

    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Hi Bill, what an interesting idea for a thread, really makes me consider my own actions too. I was a kid once...

    I did whatever I wanted on the internet, and I ended up learning quite a bit about myself. Looking back now, I'm thankful for that freedom.

    I admit, I did get up to no good! Mostly, it was just for fun - and not to harm anyone.
    The line is kind of gray though, and one morning I woke up and felt different - like something I was doing (which I thought was right) wasn't really right at all.
    I thought it would be a good idea to break into people's computers and delete their pornography... ( ha .. ha? )
    Anyway, I changed my mind about that - people can keep their pornography because... "people need to be able to do what they want"

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    ...

    For some, that temptation (and there's no other word!) becomes overwhelming...
    Why do humans behave in this way, when they'd never ever do that if they were living under the same roof, or were all in the same room together? ...
    My mom used to have a saying .. "A locked door keeps an honest man, honest" -- there's a bit of truth to that for most.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    The 'Shadow'
    It seems we just have to live with that, whenever it happens.... do we?
    Bill, I don't believe we "just have to live with this behaviour" and I think just by starting this thread it is your effort to mitigate this kind of behaviour. There is little doubt in my mind that some of the people of Avalon and others that visit frequently will think twice before acting on their "disinhibitions."

    Every human put on this planet has a dark side. It is generally held in check for our own benefit and the benefit of those that we are interacting with. The internet has launched every generation across the globe onto a platform where they can remain anonymous. Part of the intrigue of anonymity is that we can say things that we would never say in public. Take Twitter (just one example), it is a great tool for gathering and distributing information but it can also be a cesspool for humanity. Some will use it in a way that will immensely benefit them while others will use it as a means to unleash toxic, angry threatening behaviour. As with all things, some will be disturbed by it and never join in, others will be entertained for a while and move on but there will be a certain element of society that will find it intoxicating and wallow in for as long as they can.

    The dark side of humanity is beginning to spill into the light, we clearly see this in today's politics. These lethal flames are being fueled by the mainstream media finally coming to grips with the fact that people are willing to act and interact on stories that are negative. The media has been telling the public that they are victims, victims of racism, global warming, gender bias, greed, corruption, inequality, war, poverty, religion. Many, I would even wager to say most people now believe that this is true.

    This toxicity that has been spoon-fed to the public shows up on the internet every day. People unleash their anger in the most inhospitable ways possible, particularly when they can remain anonymous. Every single person put on this planet can find a reason to be angry or to be called a victim over some sort of moral, ethical, illegal or even legal injustice. These deadly flames that have been lit and fanned by the media are a last gasp of air before they succumb to the electronic age of the internet. 

    Many in the media have already succumbed to the fate of the electronic bullet while the rest are fiercly trying to change or survive. It is my contention that the mainstream media will be no more in a matter of years.  In 5-7 years you won't be able to find them and if you do you won't recognize them. The internet will greatly expand and it will start including a lot of voice and facial recognition features. This will not kill off anonymity but will be the beginning of the end. The internet will move to some sort of grading system for news and web pages that people will start to trust.  When more and more people start trusting the internet we will eventually hit a tipping point that will start to eliminate so much negative news. People have been wound up so tightly by today's media that it will take several years to unwind it back to the point of moderate civility.
     
    People across the world want the truth and they are looking hard for it.  Not just in politics and current events but they are curious about life, our existence, God and the afterlife. The internet will launch an age of critical thinking. Instant access to information that people can start to trust. The anonymous flame throwers will move back into the dark and the internet will emerge as a positive force for humankind. 


    Just as a footnote: government intervention could change the course of the internet or drastically slow down its development. I don't think governments can stop the eventual outcome but they can delay for decades.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    This sort of phenomenon isn't new. Before the internet (and still today) you'd often see malicious, slanderous graffiti scrawled on the walls of public toilets, subways, locker rooms etc, left by people who felt they had something to say, but were only happy to say it anonymously. It's more or less the same sort of thing. Anti-social behaviour. The need to attack, offend, distress openly and publicly, but also safely, without any threat of come back.

    Does this form of anti-social behaviour stem from our inner shadow? I don't know. It's certainly seated somewhere deep in human psychology, and I'd expect a psychologist could give a much more complete answer. I more suspect that, at least with internet trolling, the offender is engaging in a form, if I may say so, of emotional masturbation, in pursuing ego-gratification from the act. There's probably more to it, but that's what it seems to me.

    Trolling of this severe kind can stretch to some extent to general misconduct, of lashing out on internet forums like Avalon – as we have occasionally seen. When discussions get out of hand, that very same troll, whose name is Ego, can rear its ugly head and take over from the intellect. It's purely emotionally-driven in my opinion, which suggests more a form of neurosis than something of metaphysical origin like the shadow (although both are likely connected, in that one feeds the other). Emotions can and do reign supreme, but only if you allow them to take over and if you give them that power. It's an art in itself maintaining a balanced approach to all things, and keeping rational thought in control.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    This sort of phenomenon isn't new. Before the internet (and still today) you'd often see malicious, slanderous graffiti scrawled on the walls of public toilets, subways, locker rooms etc, left by people who felt they had something to say, but were only happy to say it anonymously
    Really good point, the internet is just making it much easier.

    Before the internet when I was about 11 years old, I wrote something "not nice" the bathroom wall at school. I didn't do it to be malicious or slanderous though, I did it to be hilarious.
    I spelled the principal's name wrong purposefully so it would rhyme with bitch, and once she found it was there, she made all the students write her name on a piece of paper. She never caught me though, I spelled it correctly on the paper

    Maybe it runs in the family. Father thought it'd be funny to put a used car battery next to the 'The Battery' road sign. One of our friends saw it there and remarked how terrible that it was, and I just laughed to myself because I knew Father did it.

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    Father thought it'd be funny to put a used car battery next to the 'The Battery' road sign. One of our friends saw it there and remarked how terrible that it was, and I just laughed to myself because I knew Father did it.
    Many years ago, when I was ice climbing in Scotland, I found a 'WARNING ICE' sign that had been uprooted from where it was supposed to be, lying by the side of the road below the mountains. It looked a bit like this:



    So I lugged this huge thing (it was metal, and heavy!), a thousand or so feet up to the foot of an ice cliff on the mountains above. A lot of climbers thought it was very funny, the photo appeared in at least one book, and no-one ever knew who hauled it up there.

    As best I know, it's still there. (No-one would ever have carried it down again!) No harm was done: it was a fun visual joke.


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    United States Avalon Member raregem's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by ernie nemeth (here)
    yes. I learned this behavior from my mother. My friends were in fear of her because they called her crazy. She would sometimes just loose it, switching from my loving mother into a demon.

    I learned the method, to simply shut off the moderator, and let fly all those feelings bottled up inside me. I don't get violent towards people, but i have destroyed motorcycles, cars, wood projects, work projects and many other things i've forgotten since.

    My excuse, i don't know what my mother's is, is that we are in a secret war where the enemy is hidden. I know the enemy but no one else does. I want to fight, to turn it around, to destroy those who have transgressed against the human condition. But i'm not allowed to fight because no one else wants to. So i have to live in a world where the war goes on in a subtle way that requires guile and cleverness - i have neither of those attributes. Therefore, i am at a great disadvantage, i do not have the tools to live in a war zone and pretend like it is not, all the while being attacked by clever folks with all the right stuff to succeed in this pretend life.

    So sometimes i vent so i don't go insane. I have no guilt about it. Used to but guilt is something i was taught by the catholics in order to modify my behavior. I don't go for that so i have no more guilt.

    I am sorry this is the way i have learned to survive in a world that is not mine...but at least the only person i hurt is myself.
    exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Ernie...no need to hurt yourself any longer. It isn't your stuff but theirs and you are a wonderful Spirit being with the birthright to heal and be your beautiful Spirit self. It IS yours to be that you are the "I AM", the "I AM THAT I AM". ALL YOURS!
    Last edited by raregem; 1st October 2019 at 19:42.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    ... Father thought it'd be funny to put a used car battery next to the 'The Battery' road sign. One of our friends saw it there and remarked how terrible that it was, and I just laughed to myself because I knew Father did it.
    The town of Dundurn Saskatchewan actually changed their own roadsigns to this, lol:


    https://wcyy.com/a-small-canadian-to...s-still-alive/

    As far as I know ... its still like that. I was first admiring the quality of the prank, then I learned the town actually made the signs like that!

    Anyway .. .straying way off topic, I just had to share that with yours and Bill's anecdotes.

    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 1st October 2019 at 22:59.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Trying to get back to topic, and understand WHY humans behave in this way - especially in regards to internet.

    I don't behave this way, and I'm human, so I'm confused and dubious about this 'dark side'. Do I have one? I imagine that I must (I'd just be blind to it because that's what evil does - makin' people blind), but that's suspicious too.

    Isn't this kind of like asking 'WHY are you people such assholes?'

    If someone were to ask me why I'm such an asshole.... I'd probably say 'what the heck are you talking about? I'm not an asshole'.

    I have asshole thoughts though sometimes, I think I can catch them though. Maybe the better question would be, why do I think like an asshole (ha ha)

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    UK Avalon Member Star Mariner's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    I have asshole thoughts though sometimes, I think I can catch them though. Maybe the better question would be, why do I think like an asshole (ha ha)
    I get that totally and I wrestle with the same. Each and every day when I have to drive somewhere - on British roads this is - these @sshole thoughts rise to the surface. I shout that very word and other slurs at other drivers in my mind - because the roads are full of these @ssholes, which kind of makes me an @sshole too I guess!

    It's incredible what a steering wheel in your hand can actually do to you. Love, peace, sympathy, spiritual awareness, it all goes flying out the window with one shift of the gears. Pick any European city to drive in, and give it a shot. I challenge you!

    Sometimes I think 'how would Jesus act?' My only honest answer is, he would walk.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: The Internet and The Shadow

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    I have asshole thoughts though sometimes, I think I can catch them though. Maybe the better question would be, why do I think like an asshole (ha ha)
    I get that totally and I wrestle with the same. Each and every day when I have to drive somewhere - on British roads this is - these @sshole thoughts rise to the surface. I shout that very word and other slurs at other drivers in my mind - because the roads are full of these @ssholes, which kind of makes me an @sshole too I guess!

    It's incredible what a steering wheel in your hand can actually do to you. Love, peace, sympathy, spiritual awareness, it all goes flying out the window with one shift of the gears. Pick any European city to drive in, and give it a shot. I challenge you!

    Sometimes I think 'how would Jesus act?' My only honest answer is, he would walk.
    I imagine Jesus walking and rolling his eyes. "God, I really don't think this is very funny... but fine, I guess I'll walk"

    I don't get road rage, but that's a great example! I think you're onto something, and rage could be driving a lot of people's terrible actions. I can think of a few terrible things I've done because of rage, and one was particularly idiotic (I was mad at the choice of party-music so I threw a Shania Twain CD at someone)

    I've just gotten back from driving too, and one thing I was acutely aware of is how I'm driving around a big metal weapon.

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