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Thread: Very Few People Can Actually Think

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    If I talk to myself it's a sign I am likely drifting into wrong-think.

    I can just as easily think without words, in pictures I can manipulate in my mind or ideas I hold as feelings that I can then compare to other ideas. And I have files in my mind. Some I can access in real time and some need time to percolate to the surface. But I can find things by category and relatedness as well to speed up the search - and feelings I remember are related to the topic at hand can also target the needed data.

    I can stay on topic for very long periods...

    But, my inductive reasoning is flawed because of my strong personal bias, and that has lead to incorrect deductions and conclusions. I am working on that. Who knew?

    Sometimes when I get stuck on a problem I will switch my thinking to Hungarian, that sometimes helps get past the impasse because then I can only think as simply as I can talk the language (no formal education in Hungarian so no words for advanced concepts).

    My mind is always working overtime...
    Forget about it

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    thanks for all the great replies. lots of good stuff.

    re "no mind": a spiritually desirable place for sages and yogis (and layman lucky enough to achieve it)...but i think that's more a state of being...which may be in some way superior, spiritually speaking, than mere thinking..but quite different actually.

    the "no thinking" seminar cracked me up a little. not in a condescending way! it's just that the comic in me was flooded with bad jokes at the thought of it. for starters, setting up the seminar, and all the logistics, most likely took quite a bit of thinking!

    re 'thoughts think us': thoughts are like dreams, in a way..so i can see why a statement like this resonates. however, thoughts can be reeled in, organized, and controlled with great effort..as dreams can. it's crucial when engaging in critical thinking, for example. or if you're planning and plotting a course for your life (or even your day!)

    strategizing your days, and ultimately your life, requires some detailed thinking. it's also true that, when stuck, letting the effort go and waiting for the thoughts to arrive on their own time can be invaluable...especially in creative pursuits. john lennon describes this happening to him when writing songs (it's how "nowhere man" came to be, for example)

    and, as mashika said, most people are scared to be alone with their thoughts to begin with, so the desire is lacking. the "monster" referred to there might also be called the "shadow", and we've all run from that from time to time

    if you can read and write and articulate, you're virtually unstoppable. it doesn't matter what you're engaging in. i need to write to truly think things out. and i'd never discourage anyone from using the tools of talking and writing to think...i just thought it would be an interesting exercise to try to think without those tools. it shocked me at just how difficult it was.

    much more i'd like to say about all this, but pressed for time atm. thanks for all the excellent replies

    p.s. paula thanks for that chart detailing all the various forms of intelligence. very helpful!
    Last edited by Mike; 18th October 2019 at 17:19.

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    United States Avalon Member RunningDeer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    p.s. paula thanks for that chart detailing all the various forms of intelligence. very helpful!
    Many of us can relate to several categories. In the early 1990’s, I purchased “7 (Seven) Kinds of Smart. It's a valuable tool to learn how we take in the world and process it, and helps us to better understand the processes of others.

    * Graphic chart and post here.
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 19th October 2019 at 12:52.

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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    "Hey Google" doesn't help the matter at all but I do believe most every being with awareness thinks. I just think what we as a species have lost is the ability to stay focused and hold a singular line or focus of thought. With the computer age who has a tendency to speculate on the ultimate questions? They just ask Google! Instead of going within one goes outside of self to find the answers today. Also the days of not finding what you want and just making your own are all but gone except for rare few exceptions. Imagine though for a moment, someone with more than the usual powers of concentration! Why is mediation important? For one in meditation everyone experiences difficulty keeping their mind on one thought! The mind can be a restless beast jumping from distracting noises to an itch and numerous anxieties. Indeed for much of our existence the average among us discovers that when meditating trying to hold one thought or image or intention or solution in mind for even one minute causes one to begin to suspect we are not really the master of our own mind's at all but at best frusrated casual part time observers of a mind and a body off on it's own destiny and an experience taking us places we never saw coming in a million years. How else do we end up in places years later asking ourselves how in the world we ended up here? Was it by lack of focus or was there really anything I could have ever done to change a thing at all?

    Sometimes life really makes it clear that resistance is futile!
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Some people think too much.
    Without realizing the consequence of their thoughts.
    EXample
    A conspiracy theorist who claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre did not happen, has been ordered to pay $450,000 (£351,000) to the father of one of the victims.
    Leonard Pozner, whose six-year-old son Noah was one of 26 killed in the massacre, was awarded the money by a jury in Wisconsin after successfully suing James Fetzer for defamation.
    The retired professor, who co-wrote the book Nobody Died at Sandy Hook with Mike Palacek, who agreed a settlement deal with Mr Pozner last month. Its terms have not been disclosed.
    Mike, I don’t mean to hijack your thread but felt I had to respond to this.

    Greybeard, with all due respect, how do you presume to know what Fetzer had in his mind regarding the consequences of publishing his book on Sandy Hook? Perhaps he thought “Gee, someone needs to manifest some courage regarding this event and what happened (or didn’t happen) there and I guess it will be me.”

    This case is far from over -- see article below on this absurd “trial” by Kevin Barrett and Robert David Steele’s response below that article.

    I think this whole matter and his legal issues does deserve some thought.

    https://phibetaiota.net/2019/10/spec...-in-wisconsin/

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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)
    One of my practices is not to think. My goal is to ask a question and the answer comes before I’ve finished asking. Pictures and ideas pop-in to fill out the rest.
    Same here Paula, except the anticipated new thoughts, insights and ideas, usually takes a little bit more time to percolate up in the old noggin for me.

    Kind of like when I turn the coffee on in the morning, it's useful to walk away, get some other things done in the meantime, and then come back when it's done.

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    United States Avalon Member RunningDeer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)
    One of my practices is not to think. My goal is to ask a question and the answer comes before I’ve finished asking. Pictures and ideas pop-in to fill out the rest.
    Same here Paula, except the anticipated new thoughts, insights and ideas, usually takes a little bit more time to percolate up in the old noggin for me.

    Kind of like when I turn the coffee on in the morning, it's useful to walk away, get some other things done in the meantime, and then come back when it's done.
    Me too, Gracy May. The practice is a work in progress. The hardest part for me was to not slip back so deep into analytical mind that I miss the natural phenomenon going on all around. And some of it says, "Come join in… Pay attention. This one’s for you."






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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    Caliban, Interesting thoughts. Fetzer did something really amazing in his Sandy Hook conspiracy thinking. First, he categorized too widely by connecting dots that should remain unconnected. Then he took those dots, and together with the gristle of intrigue, threw them into a mental sausage casing. When he was done he tied both ends of the sausage together with string, creating a closed loop of thought.

    We all do this and have to guard against it. Because our minds will go round and round and round and not let any countering info in. The ability to change one's mind is hugely important.
    Last edited by AutumnW; 19th October 2019 at 03:05.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    autumn you wrote something really interesting i meant to respond to earlier..about having to have limitation in creative pursuits.

    it sounds counterintuitive but it's quite reasonable. there's an old jewish idea that revolves around the notion that the only thing god lacks is limitation. since he is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, there is no distinction between this and that and therefore nothing to experience.

    the creation of the universe and all it's inhabitants represents his attempt at creating limitation. and it, ironically, created loads of possibilities and options and opportunities to create.

    like you, i need guidelines and limitations/boundaries to create/think. i'm lost otherwise

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    Quote Posted by Caliban (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Some people think too much.
    Without realizing the consequence of their thoughts.
    EXample
    A conspiracy theorist who claimed that the Sandy Hook massacre did not happen, has been ordered to pay $450,000 (£351,000) to the father of one of the victims.
    Leonard Pozner, whose six-year-old son Noah was one of 26 killed in the massacre, was awarded the money by a jury in Wisconsin after successfully suing James Fetzer for defamation.
    The retired professor, who co-wrote the book Nobody Died at Sandy Hook with Mike Palacek, who agreed a settlement deal with Mr Pozner last month. Its terms have not been disclosed.
    Mike, I don’t mean to hijack your thread but felt I had to respond to this.

    Greybeard, with all due respect, how do you presume to know what Fetzer had in his mind regarding the consequences of publishing his book on Sandy Hook? Perhaps he thought “Gee, someone needs to manifest some courage regarding this event and what happened (or didn’t happen) there and I guess it will be me.”

    This case is far from over -- see article below on this absurd “trial” by Kevin Barrett and Robert David Steele’s response below that article.

    I think this whole matter and his legal issues does deserve some thought.

    https://phibetaiota.net/2019/10/spec...-in-wisconsin/
    My post was a generalization.
    My point really is one of compassion.
    If I had a child murdered in similar to the alleged situation then I would be very upset to find "conspiracy theorists" who weren't there, exercising their minds, joining dots to come up with a plausible alternative.
    For Sandyhook not to have happened would have required the duplicity of a whole town--too many people would have had to been involved--thats my thought--may be wrong.

    Similar happened with recent storms that caused havoc--the destruction was horrendous and fair enough the Media do hype things but down playing what was happening might impact on efforts to mitigate the situation.

    Conspiracy theorists are pone to find an alternative that blames --whoever they want to blame--sometimes they get it right.

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Very Few People Can Actually Think

    As a sort of heads up, I'm not trying to convert/convince anyone into anything so much as explain my line of thinking. Nothing is for everyone, do as you wish, it's none of my business anyway.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    re "no mind": a spiritually desirable place for sages and yogis (and layman lucky enough to achieve it)...but i think that's more a state of being...which may be in some way superior, spiritually speaking, than mere thinking..but quite different actually.
    I'd say you're 50/50 on target. It's a state that one attempts to achieve in moments at a time when sitting in quiet meditation, but it's inherently understood that it cannot be 100% maintained during daily life. From what I understand it's not even encouraged to try. Monks often work, blue collar style laying bricks, pulling weeds, etc. The mind is needed but one tries to focus it on the work alone and not the fact that the goddamn mosquitoes are biting or it's so hot. Make sense?

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    the "no thinking" seminar cracked me up a little. not in a condescending way! it's just that the comic in me was flooded with bad jokes at the thought of it. for starters, setting up the seminar, and all the logistics, most likely took quite a bit of thinking!
    This is sorta what I meant by I think you're like 50% off target. One's ability to focus and handle daily life is significantly enhanced when one can maintain focus on singular tasks. This is a skill that can be exercised, like working out to lift heavier weights. During mindfulness meditation one notices the constant torrent of thoughts that are across the board. In the process of meditation one slowly attempts to rid themselves of these random off the wall thoughts. What you're left with is quietude. It's sorta like clearing your office desk. Then when you need to handle something you have a laser like focus.

    It's like a PC running multiple programs at once: If you stop all the bs background programs your PC will run like it's brand new. There wont be any blue screens or lock ups.


    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    re 'thoughts think us': thoughts are like dreams, in a way..so i can see why a statement like this resonates. however, thoughts can be reeled in, organized, and controlled with great effort..as dreams can. it's crucial when engaging in critical thinking, for example. or if you're planning and plotting a course for your life (or even your day!)
    Meh, I 50/50 agree on your analogy (or is it metaphor? Me still too dumb to figure out difference).
    Thoughts can be reeled in but not all are alike. Some are very very loud and overrun all other thoughts, which spills out into one's ability to focus. The only way I am aware of how to mitigate these issues is mindfulness or drug use. I don't mean to sound dramatic I'm serious.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    strategizing your days, and ultimately your life, requires some detailed thinking. it's also true that, when stuck, letting the effort go and waiting for the thoughts to arrive on their own time can be invaluable...especially in creative pursuits. john lennon describes this happening to him when writing songs (it's how "nowhere man" came to be, for example)
    I may face a banning for saying this but.... Lennon is overrated. Along with Dylan. Why do so many girls like him? He sounds like he's crying in half his songs. Bleh. He's okay I guess.
    For a serious note, see above.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    and, as mashika said, most people are scared to be alone with their thoughts to begin with, so the desire is lacking. the "monster" referred to there might also be called the "shadow", and we've all run from that from time to time
    Not all monsters are created equal. Some crush souls. You can't run. See Hotel California. Again, joking aside, this goes back to what I was saying about facing the issue or drug use. Some people hate life cause mrs. yoga pants broke up with them and is talking smack and some people hate life cause their house got bombed and family killed. Those monsters are drastically different. One can be ignored for a period of time but the other not so much. Some demons must be faced or you end up laying in bed for the rest of your life.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    if you can read and write and articulate, you're virtually unstoppable. it doesn't matter what you're engaging in. i need to write to truly think things out. and i'd never discourage anyone from using the tools of talking and writing to think...i just thought it would be an interesting exercise to try to think without those tools. it shocked me at just how difficult it was.
    I wouldn't discourage anyone from these things either. And I agree, 'Pen is mightier than the sword' and all.


    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    much more i'd like to say about all this, but pressed for time atm. thanks for all the excellent replies
    Perhaps if your mind was more clear you could have debated more efficiently!! (jk much love bud)
    Just as every cop is a criminal
    And all the sinners saints

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