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Thread: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

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    United States Moderator Tam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Glad to see this thread is up and active. I think this is an important discussion that needs to be had, in light of the inevitability of national legalization in the US in the next <5 years. (Iíd put money on it being by 2021)

    I have quite a bit to say here, so Iíll do so in 2 separate posts. Iím a rambler, after all 😊 Yes, this is going to be a super, super long post (as usual), so grab a snack, make some tea, and get comfortable. You're gonna be here awhile.

    This post is more or less in direct response to post #22 by Sammy, though it does also somewhat address those preceding it as well.

    Iíll start by saying that, while I am very much pro-marijuana, I donít think itís the answer to the worldís problems, nor is it perfect or risk-free. Itís not for everyone. And it certainly shouldnít be used by minors, at least not on any regular basis (a birthday or Christmas low-THC joint to share with friends is about where Iíd limit it). Smoking in any shape or form is harmful, and while marijuana is in no way addictive, people do get attached to it and overuse (as they can with anything, from hamburgers to cocaine).

    I say this as a regular user of marijuana, and someone who espouses its many benefits. It can and has saved or significantly improved many lives. It helps people with depression and anxiety function on a day-to-day basis without having to resort to dangerous pills. It helps people with chronic pain, veterans with PTSD and no one to talk to, and I have no doubt that long-term, it makes most people wiser, more compassionate, and introspective. Itís certainly not a gateway drug (Iíd argue Adderall and booze are more along those lines), and the reefer madness propaganda of the 50s-70s is outright bull****.

    I also have to disagree with the notion that thereís a lack of education and awareness of the negatives of marijuana among young people.

    While there has been an increase in incidents, quite a few of us are well aware of its pros and cons and donít zealously defend it to even the smallest iota of criticism. Something to keep in mind as a general rule in life is that just because a certain group is the loudest, doesnít mean itís the majority.

    I do think there should be marijuana ed in legal states, so teens (who will always and forever pursue what they shouldnít, nobody can help it) can make informed decisions about marijuana due to information that is freely delivered in an unbiased and scientific way, rather than the sensationalistic, fabricated fearmongering that every student is subjected to when itís time for drug education. Every kid knows the anti-weed crap is a crock of paranoid, delusional bull****, and this has the opposite effect on teenagers. Rebellious as they are, they totally dismiss it all and tend to go all out on cheap, crappy weed without inhibition. And crappy weed has all kinds of problems. No one should smoke it, ever.

    Good weed, on the other hand, offers a laundry list of benefits, and I encourage those who have never tried to dabble with an experienced, responsible friend. Unless you have any history of schizophrenia in your family, or an addictive personality. Definitely do not use it if this applies to you

    Like all good things, marijuana needs to be used in moderation, and thereís the modern issue of most of it having way, way, way too high of a THC ratio. This has only gotten worse with legalization, as growersí main demographic are daily users who are constantly increasing their tolerance to exceedingly high levels. So of course it's in their best financial interest, as a business, to cater to the customer's needs. This is very slowly beginning to change, though.

    For readers who have access to Netflix, I recommend checking out their series, Explained, and checking out the ďWeedĒ episode. It does a great job of explaining this problem more in-depth.

    Since I canít legally share this video here, however, Iíll instead share a related anecdote. This is where things are going to get wordy. Hope your snacks are ready to go. This would be a good time to check on your tea.

    The high-THC problem, in my opinion, is clearly why weíre seeing increased cases of psychosis, as the weed you buy at dispensaries nowadays is not the same weed my parents would have smoked in the 80s, or even before that. This is becoming more and more of an issue, as many people, myself included, want to have mellower, more relaxing highs, yet bud that fits that profile is becoming harder and harder to find. We also donít yet know the long-term effects of this modern, manmade superweed. There hasnít really been anything quite like in in our known history.

    This, to me, is whatís dangerous, and Iíll explain why. (Please note: I donít think it should be banned. Iím of the opinion that all drugs should be decriminalized and people free to ingest whatever the hell it is they want. But I digress)

    I started smoking when I was 20 (Iím 23 now). I have had periods where I would smoke 5x+ a day for weeks/months, and periods where I wouldnít smoke at all for weeks/months.

    On average, Iíd say I regularly hit the pipe once or twice per evening, to sort of unwind and mellow out. Every quarter or so, Iíd take a 2-6 week tolerance break, to help clear out my mind (marijuana does cause short-term memory issues while trace amounts of THC remain in your system, as well as REM issues, as others have noted) as well as help me be more efficient in my use of precious flower. Due to the fact that I live in a prohibition state, I had no choice but to get my supply from a dealer, and as such, had no say in what strain I go, nor any knowledge on how it was grown. However, I always made sure to invest in quality bud, that (supposedly) was either homegrown or occasionally smuggled from dispensaries in Colorado or California.

    This is important to understand, as it means Iíve had a wide range or strains of varying strength. I never had any issues with any of my experiences; while there were batches here and there I was less fond of, it was a personal preference thing. I never had anxiety or paranoia. The only negative side-effect is that I always got hardcore munchies, and therefore had to make a concerted effort not to eat copious amounts of food (and frequently failed).

    Iíve also had the chance to get legal weed in different forms from legal states, and I only had positive experiences to report.

    Last month, my family and I visited California, and given that weíre a 4/20 friendly family, we hit up the local dispensary to see what they had to offer. After getting a few joints and a small pack of gummy edibles (which Iíve had experiences with before), we went on our merry way. The joints took longer than expected to get through as they packed quite a punch, so at the end of our week, we still had the pack of edibles left, and we didnít want to waste it. So we were at the airport in California, about an hour and a half early, waiting in the terminal, when my parents and I split the edibles and each took our dose. My sister took none as she's only 18 and also has no interest.

    Now, I want to reiterate, I consider myself a seasoned friend of marijuana. Iíve smoked full, fat joints at social gatherings, taken several sizeable hits from bongs in one session, smoked hash, etc. It also wasnít my first rodeo taking edibles at an airport. Last time we were in California, we did the same thing, and I had a great time. I remember being baked at the terminal, sitting at the window overlooking the runway, absolutely fascinated by the airplanes taking off and landing, eating crappy, overpriced airport Mexican food (which was goddamned delicious given my state). It was very obvious I was high as kite (though I was very quiet), and I didnít have a care in the world as I was in a euphoric, childlike state of wonder. I remember hearing all the sounds of people and rolling luggage around me, and how musical it sounded. I was giggling like an idiot the whole time. It was lovely. I had taken 3 small edible marshamallows, totaling about 20 mg of premium quality, <40% THC sativa.

    This experience was nothing like that.

    This batch was about 60% THC, sativa, 20-25 mg (thereís always wiggle room on edible dosage). I popped my gummies, and within 30 minutes, I started feeling the effects. It was all standard; I was jubilant, everything was hilarious, munchies were starting to hit, I was relaxed, yet still alert. All good signs. I was in a good state of mind.

    Then, as edibles tend to do, it hit me like a truck out of nowhere.

    Now, Iím aware that high doses of certain strains of marijuana can cause light, quasi-hallucinatory effects. I knew of this, though I had never experienced it firsthand. I knew people who had, and their stories were interesting, but nothing like what I was about to be subjected to (so I was ignorant to the potential marijuana had; I underestimated it. This is key). Words will never adequately explain the feeling, but I am going to do my best.

    First, though, youíre going to need some relevant, boring details.

    The layout of the terminal we were in was a huge dome, with hallways intersecting it perpendicular to one another. The building was 3 floors (underground, ground floor, second floor). The hallways/corridors were constantly high in traffic, as people that would disembark planes would head down them to get their luggage in one direction, and in the other direction, oncoming travelers met at the center of the dome, to await their flights. The central circle was huge, it probably had 3,000 people in it at any given time, and it was a wide open space, with all the gates to planes on one side, food stalls on the other (which circled around the outer perimeter), and in between, rows and rows of chairs. It was very busy, very loud, and there were frequent messages on the intercom. There was no way out of this place; it was on the second floor, and the nearest non-emergency exit was a 5-minute walk down the long, busy hallway, past security, and even then, youíd be in the middle of a heavily-serviced loading/unloading/shuttle zone in the heart of the airport, which went on for a few miles in both directions. It was more or less a fortress.

    Still with me? Good.

    Anyway, the edibles hit me, hard, and it was totally unlike anything I had ever experienced in my life.

    It started with my brain being totally incapable of filtering and tuning out all the background noise. Suddenly, every little sound could be heard clearly. My hearing was enhanced to a degree that was almost superhuman. And this made me anxious.

    Imagine all the hundreds of sounds that come from being in a giant glass and concrete room with 2,000+ people. Talking, eating, arguing, typing on laptops, children playing, music in the background, intercom, rolling luggage, janitors cleaning, etc. My hearing was so acute that I could make out, crystal clear, individual conversations that were happening ~50 feet away. And there was absolutely no way to stop it, no way to tune it out. It was beyond my control. Every last little sound.

    And it was getting more and more amplified every second, as my hearing got increasingly sensitive, and everything bounced off the glass dome and off the walls. It was a very echoey room.

    An important detail that I think is relevant, is that I have ADD. So already, I have trouble ignoring things. My brain goes 500 mph when Iím in a quiet room by myself, and weed usually helps slow that down. Not this time. It was impossible, there was way too much going on.

    Within about 2 minutes, it was all too much. I was experiencing what those on the autistic spectrum call sensory overload, and it was horrible.

    I felt the ugly, familiar feeling of a nasty anxiety attack creeping up, and I absolutely had to get the hell away from this deafeningly loud, chaotic place. But there was no way out. I was in an airport. 60 feet above a concrete runway. I had nowhere to go. With that realization came an intense wave of claustrophobia.

    I got up briskly and told my father I was having a severe anxiety attack, and that I needed him to take me somewhere quiet, as I was rapidly spiraling into a hyperventilating, cold-sweat, vertigo state. My heart rate was through the roof.

    So he calmly walks me, by the arm, to a little area about 20 feet away where phone booths once were, so it was a sort of box. It was still loud as all hell, but it was about 30% quieter, so it was enough to calm me down as I closed my eyes, hands over my ears like an insane person (of which I was painfully aware), and tried to control my breathing. I kind of meditated, best I could, while he stood in front of me, muffling as much sound as possible. After a few minutes of this, the anxiety attack subsided, and I borrowed my momís noise cancelling headphones and sat back in the central eating area, eyes closed, just trying to maintain my heart rate and forget about the fact that I was stuck in an airport, higher than Iíve ever been in all my life, soon to board a f*cking airplane, and just starting to feel the effects of an edible the lady at the dispensary told me would ďlast hours and hoursĒ.

    And then it really kicked in.

    Suddenly, I was seeing beautiful, colorful, kaleidoscopic mandalas when I had my eyes closed. Undulating, ebbing geometric patterns. I could feel the blood flowing in my veins, my lungs pumping oxygen, my heart beating a little too fast, and other things I can't really remember. I was not expecting it, and it threw me completely.

    I made the mistake of opening my eyes, and colors were weirdly enhanced. Everything was faintly luminescent. I was extremely disoriented, and I was rapidly losing all physical sensation. My field of vision was growing. I could see more, farther out. Every second, things were getting exponentially more and more intense. I started to become hypersensitive to movement of any kind. I could clearly feel every little vibration, from footsteps to the rumbling of planes, almost like bass from a subwoofer.

    It wasnít unpleasant, but it was extremely intense, and I was in the worst possible place to experience something like this for the first time, without having any idea it was even possible.I was not aware marijuana could do this. I totally underestimated it.

    It was as if my 5 senses were magnified tenfold and no longer limited to my physical body. I could feel everything, on an energetic level, which is impossible to fully convey in language.

    At this point, another anxiety attack started to come on. A big one. And with my new, enhanced state, it was a whole new thing, a totally different caliber of awful.

    And that's when it peaked. I got hit with what I believe was a temporary psychic opening of the floodgates.

    I could feel the emotions and thoughts of every last person within a 50 foot radius or so, which means I was feeling hundreds of people. I could see waves of energy coming off everything like heat on asphalt.

    At this point, Iím losing my perception of time as well, but in a really weird way. I pulled out my phone to try and put on soft music to distract myself from all the visual and psychic noise, and the 2 seconds it took to do that took about 15 in terms of my perception of time itself. I swear to god, I was seeing everything in slow motion. Even though I felt my hand move in ďreal-timeĒ, my eyes saw it happen at about 25% speed, to a point where it left a tracer trail, which pulsated.

    And the phone. My god, the phone. It just gave off a horrible energy. The blue light was painfully, blindingly bright. It felt hypnotic, and sort of possessively, energetically loud in a way I canít explain, but was very much negative. It freaked me out, so I immediately put it away, which happened at normal speed (time was all over the place), and to my horror, about 80% of people in the room were on one device or another. And I'm telling you, I could feel the radiation from each and every one of them, and it felt jarringly unnatural. Where the energy coming off people had a certain flow to it, the energy coming off electronics was justÖdifferent. Synthetic. Heavy. Then I looked up, and saw the 30 televisions, and noticed they didnít give off the same energy, and it was then I realized that I was only feeling this from mobile devices.

    And it scared the **** out of me, because everyone was just clearly addicted to them, glued to their phones, and I knew in that moment that it was already too late to save us from it, that AI and the singularity was an inevitable certainty, and we were going to welcome it with open arms. All of this I had thought of before on many occasions. It doesn't take a genius to see this. In that moment, though, I understood, in a flash second, every implication of this oncoming revolution, on every level. It wasnít so much an epiphany as it was a sort of vision, without actually seeing anything. I canít really adequately explain it, but I knew it was all designed to keep us docile, that it was having a weird effect on people on every conceivable level, and that the war against us was already lost. We had collectively bit the hook, if you would. I know all of this is more or less easy to think about, it's hardly a groundbreaking revelation, but what I felt and knew was so much more than that. I can't really describe it. The closest thing I can compare it to is when Neo wakes up in the vat of gel in the Matrix, and sees the endless pods. It obviously wasn't that, but it was an equally horrifying, new layer of reality I was suddenly feeling, and somehow, technology was really, really disrupting it.

    All of this in a split second, while in the midst of an anxiety attack, under which I was being just inundated with a torrential downpour of psychic noise.

    This is the precise moment where I went from severely anxious to having a full blown panic attack. It took every last ounce of willpower in me not to throw up right then and there, and lay under the chairs in the fetal position sobbing like a baby. I donít like attention, though, so I was trying, very, very hard to keep it together. But I also couldnít stay in that central room. It was just way too much, like being in the ocean during a hurricane.

    So this time I tell my mother, I need to get the hell out. I need to move. I canít stay here. A small part of me was also aware we had to board a plane in about 30 minutes, and there was absolutely no way in a billion years that I could stand being cramped into a tiny seat in a tiny steel tube for 3 and a half hours, way up in the sky, with 300 people (it was a full flight). Knowing that didnít help things.

    So she whisks me away, tries to distract me by starting small talk, but for some reason, I was having a very hard time with speech and language in general. There were snippets where I couldnít understand a word she was saying, not because she wasnít speaking clearly, but because my brain was having trouble processing words and it was being rewired as gibberish. She walked me around the outer perimeter, and we took a large elevator reserved for the handicapped and employees, and it was instant relief. I was shut off from the world, and things got a lot more quiet, a lot more still, which confirmed my theory that I was feeling everyone and every deviceís energy. We rode up and down for about 10 minutes, before we had to walk back to begin the boarding process. Thankfully, that meant we got to sit in one of the gate areas, which was a long, rectangular room jutting out from the dome with a much lower ceiling, so things were significantly quieter. Less people, less noise. But I still having intense visual experiences, time was still weird, I could still feel the emotions and thoughts of the 3 airplanes worth of people around me, and it was still just too much. I was able to handle it, somewhat, but was still totally overwhelming. All I could do was close my eyes, hold my head in my hands, and silently cry. Turns out, most people at airports arenít in a very good mood, and I was feeling the full force of all that negativity on an energetic level that was so intense, I could feel it physically. I guess the only way my body could get rid of all that excess energy was through tears. I think that may be why we cry; it's a biological cleansing/balancing mechanism.Salt and water are used in a lot of rituals, so it kind of makes sense.

    Anway, I was still having anxiety attacks, randomly. They were very strong, and I was constantly on the verge of having a full-on mental breakdown. The kind that would definitely have me hospitalized and hooked up to a sedative. So an instinctual defensive mechanism sort of turned itself on, and I just sat on a chair, hunched over, breathing in and out, in and out, gently, eyes shut, hands over my face, a steady stream of tears just flooding out of me. Suddenly, things what is best described as far away as I receded deep within a quiet, dark, empty place in myself. It was very calm, very still, very neutral. I was vaguely aware of people around me; a peek confirmed people were staring (some were judging me, others clearly empathetic, most just a combination of bewildered and pitying me). I was vaguely aware my mother being very, very worried about me, asking my father what was going on, what was happening, if anything could be done. My father, whoís very likely on the autism spectrum and a bit of an empath, knew exactly what I was going through, and gently informed her nothing could be done, all we had to do was leave me totally alone and just wait, which I am very thankful for, as I was in a very delicate state, and human interaction would most definitively have pushed me over the edge.

    I wasnít feeling good at all, but I was no longer having a roller coaster of back-to-back anxiety attacks (though they were always threateningly close). I was just exhausted, drained on every level, and almost totally disconnected from everything around me. All I could do was consciously focus on this silence within me, like a void, and just feel my breathing, which was anchoring me.

    After what felt like an hour of this (in reality, it was about 25 minutes), I become dimly aware of the lady at the intercom making the final call to board the plane. She was naming the missing 4 passengers, and they were us. She must have warned us at least 3 times, but I just could not, could not move. If I did, I was going to lose my grip on things entirely.

    One of my parents gently informed me we had to go now, we couldnít wait any longer (they graciously extended the final call for several extra minutes, as anyone could plainly see I was not doing well at all). I didnít want to fly, but more than that, I didnít want to make anyone miss the flight. I also didnít want to get on the plane only to have a total meltdown and cause a full-on delay or emergency u-turn on the runway, which I was pretty sure was still a significant possibility.

    In the end, I was able to board the plane. As the universe tends to have a sense of humor, I had the luck of being sat directly behind a screaming baby whose frantic parents were unable to calm. It was too much, as I was still very, very high, and very, very empathic.

    Interestingly, I knew why the baby was crying; she was teething, and she was in a lot of pain. She was also scared of this weird new place, and she could feel the frustration and desperation of her parents, and was confused. I also knew she was a she, even though I never saw her.

    I couldnít handle it, and I was starting to relapse, hard, and I had to get the hell off the plane because I just couldnít be sat behind that baby for 3 hours. My mom picked up on it immediately, and somehow, strings were pulled, decisions were made, and the flight attendants made people move around and switch seats, so that my mother and I were as far away from the baby as possible, which meant we were upgraded to business class. I donít remember much; the whole process took a while, as people were being uncooperative. Part of me was mortified as every last person in that plane knew who I was, what was happening, yet I was still in a sort of haze, eyes, closed, still crying. I could feel everyone watching me, and what they thought of me. The emotion I felt most clearly from people was empathy combined with minor annoyance, not at me personally, but at the delay I was causing. We were most certainly leaving later than scheduled. Which mortified my even more, since I know one plane delay means 20 plane delays, and people missing flights. All of this just compounded on my anxiety.

    Fortunately, the peak of the high was behind me, and the rest of the plane ride (which passed in the blink of an eye, thank god) was more or less calm. Iím pretty sure I had moments where I could hear peopleís thoughts, crazy as it sounds. I was in that same semi-dissociative state the whole time.

    I came very, very close to having a psychotic break that day. If I werenít fortunate enough to 1) Be educated enough to somewhat understand what was happening and know it was all temporary, and 2) Be with a very understanding, supportive family, I have no doubt I would have been hospitalized that day, perhaps even at a psychiatric ward.


    I can only imagine the effects such a strong high would have on someone without these cards in their favor. A person who neither knew what was happening, or that it was temporary, or that had people around them that could help without the fear of punishment coming soon after.

    While it was a traumatic experience, it was also a cathartic one, and I came out stronger for it. Had I been hit at home, or the hotel, I think it would have been very different. While Iím curious to try it again, I have no doubt it was a mini-trip, and not something to be taken lightly.

    I will say, however, that I think these kind of experiences are important for a lot of people to have, and will ultimately lead to the evolution of humanity. I donít think what I experienced came from a lower vibration or anything like that; in psychedelics, set and setting are the most important thing, and I was in the absolute worst setting. I also had no idea or suspicion that it was coming, so it caught me totally off-guard.

    If used in a way where you know and expect it to come, understand what youíll be feeling, and are in a safe place with sober, responsible people that are here to help, I think it would have been a very positive thing.

    I could write a lot more on what I gleaned from that experience, but in terms of whatís relevant to this thread, I learned something simple: itís something best used sporadically.

    I havenít touched any marijuana since. Itís been like 5 weeks. I have had no desire to, which is good, since I was verging on starting to overuse. I think that was a necessary experience, it showed me what I can do if used irresponsibly, as I did.

    I do plan on partaking again soon. Iím curious to see if I will have different experiences now, as Iíve heard some people say once you have an anxious high, itís like a switch that canít be unflipped and anxiety becomes a frequent and guaranteed side effect of anything more than light use.

    In any case, I donít plan on smoking daily for months at a time. Iíll likely end up doing light sessions on weekends, one small hit or two some evenings, with long breaks between each cycle. This seems the healthiest way.

    My next post will be much shorter and will address some concerns/points in this thread. Thanks for reading.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    I just finished my half price dope yesterday. It was mostly sattiva (spellcheck never heard of this word, not sure one 't' or two) strain. Back to my local guy. This stuff tastes like ****! But it has a nasty kick to it.

    Talking about paranoia, I cannot take mushrooms because they freak me out and I can't function. Any other drug I've tried has been a delightful trip but never mushrooms. My personal favorite was acid but it is too strong for everyday use, duh. Haven't tried that in over forty years - wouldn't mind finding a hit to try it again.

    Alcohol is my bane. I hate drinking. Two beers and I am a write-off for any activity I might want to pursue. I can't read, write, do any project work, or even think. It is most annoying. When I go out for a drink that day is a loss. And then the struggle to get home, spinning and constantly needing to pee, makes the ride intermittent as I must debark and find a private spot outdoors to relieve myself. It is no fun the day after either.

    So for me, a hard core drug user, but not an addict, dope is just like mother's milk. Full of good things and sweet memories.

    I have quit certain drugs because I could hold the after-effects in my mind to overcome the addiction part - like crack, after becoming broke from free-basing. The downside was so dark and demoralizing that eventually just the thought of going through it again was enough to stop me from ever doing it again. I've lost friends who were not as fortunate. Because when I decide something, all actors opposed are gotten rid of...

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Hey Tam,


    that's a wild, terrible experience you had in the airport. The only way it could have been worse is if your family hadn't been around to see you through it. Imagine if you were alone or had some clueless friends around you? So, your fam should get lots of chocolate for a long time to come.

    You know, Joe Rogan and especially Joey Diaz talk a lot about the STRENGTH of the edibles they sell in the stores in Cali. On Joey's podcast he's actually had guests (usually comedians) who, like you, became incapacitated, had to lie down and could not continue to do the show. And that's from only taking a piece of an edible. If you search it you could find out how edibles are of a different chemical compound than THC or perhaps it just breaks down in the body differently to give a much more powerful high. It's hard to believe they'll just sell this stuff to anyone. No warnings, nothing.... It sounds more like an LSD trip to me and it might just verge on that.

    You got through it. I know what's it's like, though not in an airport. Whew. And you tell it well. As you said, the weed around now is not your parents' (or my) weed from the '80s. You can't smoke this, many joints/bong hits, as we smoked our stuff. People have to learn. But these shops do bear some responsibility for educating their customers.

    (P.S. - Your perception of people totally addicted to the AI/phones? I've been there. It really is stunning to see that when you're very high. Very sad. Just like the glasses in They Live)

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Tam, wow! How scary. Sounds more like 250mg than 25mg (for someone with regular cannabis intake.) Yoiks!

    Patients fighting cancer with cannabis oil need to keep increasing the tolerable dose day after day in stages, and many have experienced an "overdose" at some point, and describe experiences kind of sort of in the realm of what you went through. (Well, your writing was so descriptive, that it sounds maybe more intense than usual.)

    When THC goes into the blood stream, the first circulation cycle you have THC in your blood. At some point, the liver metabolizes the THC and changes it into 11-hydroxy-THC (11-OH-THC), which has an even more powerful psychoactive effect than THC (and is not known to be medicinal, but I haven't seen that it has gotten much scrutiny.) For a cannabis oil patient, the protocol is to take some coconut oil about a half hour before ingesting the THC-rich cannabis oil. This "keeps the liver busy" and so the liver is much less efficient at metabolizing the THC into 11-OH-THC.

    (I don't think this would have helped you), but if a patient (or non-patient) gets too high, they can bite down on a peppercorn - that releases chemicals that attenuate/kill the buzz. There is also an herbal tincture based substance called BuzzKill that someone can take if they get too high. I overdosed on cannabis oil the first time I made oil (for skin cancer) and decarbed it properly... and tested it on myself cavalierly. If the idea of having your brain doing somersaults and projectile vomiting is your idea of a good time, just make cannabis oil, decarb it once incorrectly so nothing happens when you try some, and then decarb it correctly and try even more, hell, lick the pan.

    My defense of cannabis comes along with warnings. Most of cannabinoid medicine (I predict) will be from non-psychoactive cannabinoids, and/or low doses "microdoses" of cannabis preparations with a variety of cannabinoids including THC but where the THC is below the threshold of bothersome CNS involvement. (Cancer and some other major conditions/diseases will continue to see THC being the major therapeutic component.)

    I agree there needs to be fair warning and education about cannabis, though the people who need to get the message probably don't trust the same government that unfairly demonized the plant to now give out the truth. The old Cheech and Chong movies give the impression a person could inhale an enormous amount of cannabis smoke. Maybe they could have with the 1970's cannabis at perhaps an average of 3% THC levels, but modern breeders have made sure that very average cannabis is 10% to 15% THC, and top shelf at the dispensary range from 20% to near 30% THC. A few puffs of 25% THC cannabis to a "newbie" (low tolerance) could drop a big guy on the couch, and wouldn't be that 'kick back', de-stressing, or mood elevating experience that was the plan. Edibles are even more unpredictable in how a person will react (the edibles I have seen do have warnings.) But if there was a warning, who would the big guy have believed? Maybe you should record a Public Service Announcement while it is fresh in your mind.


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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Denis, that thing about projectile vomiting...

    I was violently ill last week. My insides emptied right out from both sides. I never get sick like that. then I remembered the night before my friend had given me a cookie laced with pot. It was terrible but I ate it anyway. Thought nothing of it again. It didn't seem to do anything.

    On the way home on the bus I suddenly felt ill and had to get off to find a quiet corner to throw up in. Then I continued my journey. I went to sleep and woke up a few hours later sick as heck.

    Lately I've had a weak stomach, feel light-headed, get nausea when I bend over, and am very tired all the time.

    I am thinking it might be time to take a hiatus again from dope...

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Ernie, I doubt it was the dope, if it really was marijuana. It may have been laced with something that was not pot. Or an ingredient in the cookie itself.

    Never, in all my years, have I thrown up due to ingestion of marijuana. I've lost my cookies with alcohol or other substances combined with marijuana, but not from the marijuana itself.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Denis, that thing about projectile vomiting...

    I was violently ill last week. My insides emptied right out from both sides. I never get sick like that. then I remembered the night before my friend had given me a cookie laced with pot. It was terrible but I ate it anyway. Thought nothing of it again. It didn't seem to do anything.

    On the way home on the bus I suddenly felt ill and had to get off to find a quiet corner to throw up in. Then I continued my journey. I went to sleep and woke up a few hours later sick as heck.

    Lately I've had a weak stomach, feel light-headed, get nausea when I bend over, and am very tired all the time.

    I am thinking it might be time to take a hiatus again from dope...
    It wasn't the pot that did that to you it was one of the ingredients in the cookie mix. Probably rancid butter or bad vanilla extract but I doubt it was the pot.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Dennis, thank you for the advice, I'll keep the tips in my repertoire should this ever happen to me or anyone I encounter again. I'll be very careful not to let it happen to me again, though. It was horrible.

    You can "overdose" from marijuana and it can cause vomitting, but you have to take a LOT for that to happen. Like, an excessive amount. Though with edibles it's easy to do that. Still, I think it may have been an ingredient as well. Were you taking any medications as well?

    I'll be making a post later today to kickstart some discuasion about overlooked aspects to cannabis usage, mainly those with metaphysical/spiritual implications. Just need to do a bit of research first.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    The cookie was terrible, and my internal alarm went off but I ignored it - wat too much nutmeg for one - and hard as a rock!

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Ernie, I doubt it was the dope, if it really was marijuana. It may have been laced with something that was not pot. Or an ingredient in the cookie itself.

    Never, in all my years, have I thrown up due to ingestion of marijuana. I've lost my cookies with alcohol or other substances combined with marijuana, but not from the marijuana itself.
    Yes, I think it would be hard to ingest enough cannabis to make you vomit from cannabis.

    My experience with making cannabis oil is illustrative of the problem of getting the heating process done correctly to alter the chemistry. The plant matter has the cannabinoids in a non-activated state, the acid form (such as THCa and CBDa.) Upon heating within a time and temperature dependent window, the warmed cannabinoids (such as THCa) lose the part of the acid form of the molecule - a carboxyl group - to become the activated form (such as THC.) Further heating past the optimum time and temperature further alters the cannabinoid molecules - for example, THCa becomes THC which then becomes CBN (a non-psychoactive cannabinoid without much known medicinal properties other than maybe as a sleep aid.)

    Even when someone has studied the process and is attempting to carefully use typical kitchen equipment to activate the cannabinoids, they may fail - either by not activating many of the cannabinoid molecules or by going too far and basically destroying the known and studied cannabinoids that were the goal. (My first attempt at performing the decarb process using a kitchen stove and oven thermometer, on oil that I had extracted, was a failure - the cannabinoids were not activated. I ended up buying a fancy digital induction hotplate that could hold a temperature about +- 5įC. That worked.)

    For a home cook making cannabis edibles, you also really have to think the mixing process through carefully, to ensure that the cannabinoids are pretty evenly distributed. I would think that the process of making commercial THC-infused edibles has that step down pat, but I do have to wonder if Tam got more than 25mg, or (like CBD) if some edibles use overly-refined cannabinoids, such as pure fractionally distilled THC. What I'm describing here should point to erratic results and unpredictable potency in home-made edibles (which is true), but also underscoring that commercial edibles should be relatively close in dosage (but Tam's experience sorta points to -at least the possibility of- lack of quantitative QC.)


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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    i barfed after smoking a blunt once. this was at a party i hosted quite a long time ago. i recall while smoking it that it felt like i was eating the thing. anybody that has been around the block a few times has mindlessly picked up a half empty soda or beer can in the morning after a rough night and began slugging it only to realize it was full of blunt wrappers and tobacco and possibly spit and god knows what else. well it tasted like that.

    it reminded of the first time i had chewing tobacco. first i sort of liked it, then i began sweating, then i got dizzy, then nauseous, then i yakked all over the f#cking place. then i wished i was dead.

    my buddy jim, who i was smoking it with, called when he got home to report that he was throwing up all over his driveway. it kept coming and coming. 'dude', he said, 'i wish i was dead.' 'i know dude', i said. 'i know.'

    i was barfing on the floor next to my bed when he called. it just took everything out of me.. i didn't have the energy to clean it up, but i had just enough energy to lay there and be annoyed that i didn't have the energy to clean it up. it was something like barf purgatory. i recall laying there on my bed, all splayed out, like christ on the cross, sweating and nauseous, the thudding of the music and the drunken voices from the party drifting in from the family room, with that steaming pile of puke sitting there..mocking me. my greatest fear at that time was that i'd be discovered there in such an undignified state, so i tried to reach over and lock my door. that was my last memory. i never made it. fell off my bed apparently. the next morning i awoke huddled up in the fetal position, on the floor, my arm coated in puke and half digested bits of barbecue flavored fritos
    Last edited by Mike; 27th November 2019 at 23:42.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    i barfed after smoking a blunt once. this was at a party i hosted quite a long time ago. i recall while smoking it that it felt like i was eating the thing. anybody that has been around the block a few times has mindlessly picked up a half empty soda or beer can in the morning after a rough night and began slugging it only to realize it was full of blunt wrappers and tobacco and possibly spit and god knows what else. well it tasted like that.
    Always love your stories Mike! That's a highly unusual reaction, unless from mine and others experiences, it's smoked after excessive drinking. Did you have a lot to drink first that night?

    There are other weird things that don't normally happen, but they are rare, like happened to me a one of my first concerts, a RUSH concert back around 1978. I didn't have a license or a car yet, me and my best girlfriend really really really wanted to see the show in Louisville, so I got my dad to drive us there.

    My dad just hung out outside, so we were free to be wild kids lol! Just before the opening act came on I bought a small joint from a cool seeming guy in front of us in stand only near the stage, my girlfriend didn't want any but I did, as the band came on stage though my brain started to feel like frying bacon, I thought I was watching Jimi Hendrix on stage, the stage lights and strobe lights started overwhelming my visual senses, and next thing you know I just had to sit down in the middle of that huge crowd.

    It all suddenly became overwhelming like spinning off inti The Twilight Zone.

    I was Uncomfortably Numb...

    I was in my own little world from then on out. The opening band got done, the lights came on for intermission, and at the prodding of all the others around me I made it back to my feet for the RUSH intro, but I just couldn't handle the intense sensory input. All I could do was sit there in the middle of thousands of people standing and screaming all around me, listen, and try ever so hard to try and keep my s**t together.

    As they came on for the last song nothing had changed. I was hoping time would ebb away at whatever this strange influence was doing to me, but no go. As panic welled up within me all I could think was "how am I going to face dad like this? I'm SO friggin obviously wasted and busted!!!" Omg...

    And then the miracle happened. Soon as the encore was over, the lights came on and suddenly it all washed away like waking up from a bad dream. And just in time! I was suddenly able to get up like nothing had ever happened, go find my dad, and everything was cool.

    In hindsight, I think what happened, was that little skinny joint was laced with a bit of PCP which was still big back in that day, and which I would never do! Regular pot doesn't do that to even a dumb kid who has already smoked it a few times.


    My overall opinion of it as a responsible adult now? It should be legalized just like alcohol.
    Last edited by Gracy May; 28th November 2019 at 00:55.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Hi Gracy May, thank you, and I enjoyed your story too! (Do your friends call you Gracy for short? RUSH is an underrated band btw. That drummer can't be from this earth. You were a teenager in '78? I would have never guessed it. You look about 30 in your picture there)

    Yes, I was drinking that night I threw up. That could have been it, possibly. But I almost never drink to the point of puking. Perhaps it was the combination of the 2. Not sure. Then again, I've drank and smoked in the same night before and since several times and never that type of reaction.

    In very small doses, I've always enjoyed weed. My buddy Mike used to smoke these enormous bombers, one after another, and I'd get a pleasant high just by being in the room with him for a few hours.

    I've never been a drug man, but I dabbled here n there as a younger guy. I never really wanted to escape life...i preferred the substances that made me engage it even more. I never much cared for a feeling of losing control and letting go. It frightened me. If anything, I wanted more control. Beer always made me feel sharp and aware and in control, despite its reputation for making people careless.

    But yeah, I agree with ya ...weed should be legalized everywhere imo.
    Last edited by Mike; 28th November 2019 at 05:36.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    In high school, around 1971, I smoked a puff of a hand-rolled cigarette from India, called something like "Sherbidi." I made my friend stop the car and let me out to puke. My head was swimming and I was sweating...

    Nicotine!


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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    My defense of cannabis comes along with warnings.
    Good

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    I agree there needs to be fair warning and education about cannabis, though the people who need to get the message probably don't trust the same government that unfairly demonized the plant to now give out the truth. The old Cheech and Chong movies give the impression a person could inhale an enormous amount of cannabis smoke. Maybe they could have with the 1970's cannabis at perhaps an average of 3% THC levels, but modern breeders have made sure that very average cannabis is 10% to 15% THC, and top shelf at the dispensary range from 20% to near 30% THC. A few puffs of 25% THC cannabis to a "newbie" (low tolerance) could drop a big guy on the couch, and wouldn't be that 'kick back', de-stressing, or mood elevating experience that was the plan. Edibles are even more unpredictable in how a person will react (the edibles I have seen do have warnings.) But if there was a warning, who would the big guy have believed? Maybe you should record a Public Service Announcement while it is fresh in your mind.
    Really good comment... I am 62 (I sense in your generation, Dennis) and I never trusted "the man" (cops, government, etc) and totally get your point. I think the thing that bothers me is that with all the positive information about all the things good that can come from the plant (I always called it marijuana as I always liked the word)... but yes, cannabis is a fine word that, to me, points to the same thing... that all the good things seem to be all "the powers that be" who stand to make huge profits on it want us to hear.

    The sad thing about our world, the greed, etc. is that Big Marijuana isn't fighting the good fight for the common folk, they are fighting to make their companies a pile of money and because they are so well funded... well, you know how all that goes.

    Just one example... if you look at the pot dispensaries in Denver, did you know there are more of those than McDonald's and Starbucks combined? But that's just a statistic... the really sad thing is the highest concentration of these are in the low income neighborhoods and that, to me, suggests exploitation of the vulnerable. "Thank you, Big Marijuana for showing how much you care."

    I think my OP and first few posts were my public service announcement inspired to be written because of someone I care about that I hoped might read it and... if other factors fell into place, might seek a break whereby all the "targeted experiences" might subside (operative word "might"). Only written from the heart.
    Last edited by Sammy; 28th November 2019 at 03:04.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    I have read my way through all of this and there is no mention of the following: 1. Having had the experience of hiring workmen who were using the marijuana during their lunch break, etc., I discovered that their very RED EYES caused by broken capillaries resulted from smoking this weed and that IT SMELLED JUST AWFUL, LIKE THE POISON IT IS TO THE BODY. Now the brain must be full of blood vessels. You can therefore understand why some of these men. smoking since teenagers, had little to no math ability. One of these men was graduating from Weed to the use of CRACK. A perfect example of what the Government is planning for all the children, to round out the Genocide being worked on this Planet. I think the Senators and Representatives of the House should indulge so that we can get rid of them all and replace them with people who are untempted by alcohol, drugs, forbidden sex, bribery and ongoing corruption from State to National levels. That would lead to hope for America. The Democrats already appear to have been imbibing in all of the above and are hopefully not long for this world. I suggest the Linden Larouche Party. I am certain his Ghost is waiting in the Wings of the Whitehouse to Direct.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Hi Gracy May, thank you, and I enjoyed your story too! (Do your friends call you Gracy for short? RUSH is an underrated band btw. That drummer can't be from this earth. You were a teenager in '78? I would have never guessed it. You look about 30 in your picture there)
    Hi Mike. Yes my friends and family call me Gracy for short, and yes lol, I was a teenager in 1978. I'm 57 now. and yes, you were very close on your guess of how old I was in that picture.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Yes, I was drinking that night I threw up. That could have been it, possibly. But I almost never drink to the point of puking. Perhaps it was the combination of the 2. Not sure. Then again, I've drank and smoked in the same night before and since several times and never that type of reaction.
    What I began to discover at an early age going through my 20's was that there is a certain line, like, at a party say, where before that certain line of alcohol consumption I could take a hit off of that doob being passed around and everything would be all peaches and roses but, after a certain point doing the same would just make me dizzy and sick and need to go home sleepy by.

    I reckon we learn to moderate as we go along huh?

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    My life stopped involving "parties" which were always functions of polite decorum just in time. Thereafter, the life of people seems to have descended into dope and alcohol and sex. However, since I am 80 and still glued together and look perhaps 60, it all makes sense.

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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    ...
    I think my OP and first few posts were my public service announcement inspired to be written because of someone I care about that I hoped might read it and... if other factors fell into place, might seek a break whereby all the "targeted experiences" might subside (operative word "might"). Only written from the heart.
    Sweet. Hope the message got delivered, and thanks for delivering it and starting this conversation. I'm a medicinally-oriented cannabis advocate, and see cannabinoid medicine as a formerly forbidden treasure chest, now opened. I do see it as also medicinal in terms of mood elevation or stabilization, but for someone already in danger of a psychotic break, THC and other psychoactive substances that could nudge a person over the edge don't make sense, whereas the non-psychoactive cannabinoid CBD does make sense. And water, proper sleep, proper nutrition, B vitamins, magnesium...


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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marijuana - a most complicated matter

    Great public service, Mike, that's laudable of you. Did your friend see this thread?

    Well the news is in for the first year of legalization in Canada. The big pot growers, I think there are only one or two of them, have a glut of product. They thought they would not have enough for the anticipated surge in new buyers. Nope, the new buyers were there, sure, to give it a try but without winning over the regular users, they have no chance of success. And of course their greed got in the way and they did not compete with the black market, opting instead to keep the price point high (pardon the pun). The average user spends about $200/ounce. Not sure what the big guys were charging but it was substantially higher.

    And so what can we expect next here in Canada? The crack-down on illegal growers and sellers, that's what. The police will be called on to protect the profits of the big growers. They did this with cigarettes too, after legislation failed to get smokers to buy ridiculously expensive legal smokes (went from $3 to $10 overnight). The authorities tried for a time to curb the distribution of illegal smokes from our indigenous communities who are exempt from Federal law. They were pulling transport trucks over willy-nilly looking for illegal smokes until the truckers association stepped in and complained. They objected to all truckers being treated as potential smugglers.

    They stopped harassing the truckers and us long-term smokers were left with our illegal smokes sold illegally by our corner stores through the back door...because corner stores used to rely on the income from the sale of cigarettes, which I remember as being about 40% of their business. Nowadays, it is not uncommon for a corner store to not have any cigarettes at all because of the up-front cost of stocking the shelves with them.

    And my guy, the whiz kid from a small rural town, has hired ten workers for the harvest! All illegal of course. And he has full time work for two workers. His list of products is impressive, his store well stocked, and customers lined up around the block, figuratively. He says he could get a license but why? He doesn't need them - they need him!

  40. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    Richard S. (30th November 2019), Sammy (29th November 2019)

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