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Thread: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

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    United States Avalon Member Sammy's Avatar
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    Default Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    It's my opinion that we each hold to a primary cosmological, metaphysical world view regardless of whether one has consciously considered one.

    It also is my opinion that those who play a powerful controlling role prefer people hold materialism as that view. The reasons are many.

    To kick start the potential discussion (if the thread grows legs) is an excellent and reasonably brief video that makes a scientific case against materialism. Enjoy.

    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    I am a materialist, although this is not quite meant like the normal Dead Souls Materialism. When mainstream materialism was getting started, there was a minor view started by Baron d'Holbach and perhaps a few others, which stated that there is a different kind of matter which has consciousness or is conscious. It is not physical as we ordinarily define the three states, but when we recognize the fourth state, plasma, we are on the way to it. If we understand the sun is mostly not gaseous matter burning like we know it on earth, and, somehow, whatever it has is the laboratory of life and consciousness, this is closer to the actual nature of matter, the earthly condition being mainly a trick of the senses. And so there is no type of spirit, self, or god that is separate, independent of, or in any way different from rarefied matter.

    I would say that the extremes of scientific materialism and millenialist religion are both methods of control, and that is why I am not in a debate between them, since those are not the only two possibilities, we do not have to pick a side, since there are not those sides.

    Science, or Natural Science, was originally not materialistic at all and presumed some type of conscious or living influence, until Newton was more or less hijacked by vested interests. And so of course this is now what the educational indoctrination system is built on.

    This may not be the same view as Egnor, but, I would tend to agree that piles of information about the three states of matter tell me pretty much nothing about life or consciousness and I would never really expect it to.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    The more we learn the more I realise how little we know. I agree that the traditional materialists views that permeate our lives and education have certainly held us back and trap us in a materialistic world.

    Thinking differently and looking deeper into how our mind and consciousness operate at the deepest level will help us in our search for truth about life in general. The particles and atoms we are made of are likely fractals of the Universe.

    We still don’t even understand gravity or electricity let alone the mind and soul. Technically gravity could be a trick of the mind so we stay grounded on earth.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    I don't know if any of you have experienced this but it is a great example of the non locality of mind. I had an experience where I was seriously injured. Medics arrived and there was a cluster around me. I distinctly had the experience of calmly standing aside the medics and watching myself in a very calm state. I was simply observing it. I watched myself being very emotional and full of fear. I have had lesser experiences of this nature but this one was clear and distinct. I don't have any recollection of leaving the body, just standing there observing myself.

    When I recall that memory now, it is remembered from the perspective of this other self that watched the event.
    Last edited by peterpam; 18th November 2019 at 15:32.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Though Egnor implies the alternative to materialism is dualism, all of this is opinion, yet the case he makes against materialism, on its own, is (to me) quite strong.

    Near the end he points to form and matter. In my view, matter is simply a type of form albeit the one that I, as a human being, experiences as a dominating domain where it took me years and years to begin to see that "I," (using metaphors now...) as an expression of "the All That Is" seems to be an individualized expression of consciousness. One obvious difference between my body (matter) and my mind is I can touch my nose, touch my belly, touch my toe... but I can't touch my mind. Yet I can perceive "my" mind as not "your mind" which can only be the case within a dynamic of form.

    Dualism - this particular link does a great job in exploring the idea of dualism.

    I, personally, currently hold as my cosmological metaphysical world view idealism and specifically monistic idealism - essentially - consciousness is fundamental, consciousness is one.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    Though Egnor implies the alternative to materialism is dualism, all of this is opinion, yet the case he makes against materialism, on its own, is (to me) quite strong.

    Near the end he points to form and matter. In my view, matter is simply a type of form albeit the one that I, as a human being, experiences as a dominating domain where it took me years and years to begin to see that "I," (using metaphors now...) as an expression of "the All That Is" seems to be an individualized expression of consciousness. One obvious difference between my body (matter) and my mind is I can touch my nose, touch my belly, touch my toe... but I can't touch my mind. Yet I can perceive "my" mind as not "your mind" which can only be the case within a dynamic of form.

    Dualism - this particular link does a great job in exploring the idea of dualism.

    I, personally, currently hold as my cosmological metaphysical world view idealism and specifically monistic idealism - essentially - consciousness is fundamental, consciousness is one.
    Sammy, I am not educated in many of these theories but I do share your perspective more and more strongly that we are simply individualized fragments of expression of consciousness and that there really is a magnificent oneness to this creation. Sometimes I feel it in every cell of my body but I don't hold that state consistently. It is a state of such compassion and love that it is almost too much. Then I go back to the tired old stories of Ego and I am more than ready to give that up. I do love to intellectualize everything and I don't want to do that with this, in fact I can't do it with this because it won't happen.

    The video was very interesting, I particular found "free don't thought provoking. The idea that we may be in some way under compulsion to perform in certain ways but we have the free will to choose not to. That may totally redefine what free will really is. I know I will be considering this all day...

    Thank you Sammy, I love your energy and your curiosity about our existence.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    the alternative to materialism is dualism
    why not conscientialism ?

    even because dualism its derived from material world (good & bad or light & darkness)

    what shaberon said make sense .. are both methods of control ..
    here I am, but I don't belong to this world
    So, nothing there are here belongs to me.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    When I look at nature, I don't see various accidental forms derived from competition and natural selection. I always wonder about the minds that invented it. And I see that each form or classes of forms were invented by unique intelligences. I do wonder about the marvelous innovations in nature but I marvel more about the ones that thought them up.

    When I contemplate this idea I conjure ideas of beautific creatures, demi-gods, reveling in their creative genius! I do not see any randomness at all.

    Free Won't. What a concept! Entirely unique. I have always felt that free will does not quite describe the condition I experience. But free won't - yup - that's it.

    Materialism has a flaw. It is that it cannot be reduced indefinitely. Eventually there is a limit, both big and small. Because of this the idea of materialism as a philosophy is incomplete. It cannot account for every contingency that it itself requires there be. It does not satisfy because it does not remember the answer it was sent to question. What is reality? A circular argument is not an answer.

    The immaterial aspect of reality is a hard nut to crack because it is for the most part not an active player in our everyday lives. It is the cause of our world of effects. To speak of the effects does not necessarily address the cause, as is the case with materialism. Dualism goes only half way, admitting an immaterial cause but accepting the effects as dominant just the same since the discussion is set firmly in the camp of the materialists.

    Although Egnor cites recent brain studies, forty year old studies have also come to the same conclusions, just with far less fanfare...the brain cannot account for all the functions present in the mind of man.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    the alternative to materialism is dualism
    First, I see that you quoted only a fraction of the statement I wrote leaving out the part - "Though Egnor implies..." And so I am wondering if your next question is meant for Egnor or is simply offered as another alternative. So I will respond as if the latter is the case.

    Quote Posted by rogparan (here)
    why not conscientialism ?
    The following is a definition of 'conscientialism' (from here)

    Quote Conscientialism: (Lat. conscientia + al, pertaining to conscience) Originally denoting simple consciousness without ethical bearing, the term conscience came in modern times to mean in contrast to consciousness, viewed either as a purely intellectual function or as a generic term for mind, a function of distinguishing between right and wrong. With the rise of Christianity the term came to be described as an independent source of moral insight, and with the rise of modern philosophy it became an inner faculty, an innate, primeval thing. -- H.H.
    It seems to me that conscientialism is rooted in idealism in that idealism must be foundational to all, thus conscientialism seems to me to be a sub-view of idealism. Note I hold the view of monistic idealism which similarly to conscientialism, could also be considered a more defined, refined view of idealism. To each his own! And I would certainly never argue my view is correct and another's view is not.

    What I do like to point out is that we consider how our view impacts our thinking, words and actions and how all of those combine to impact others and our world. My suggestion is always - "The view that does the best for the most makes the most sense to hold."

    Quote Posted by rogparan (here)
    even because dualism (in the context of metaphisics) its derived from material world (good & bad or light & darkness)
    from the same source we have dualism defined -

    Quote Dualism: (Lat. duo, two)

    (a) In metaphysics: Theory which admits in any given domain, two independent and mutually irreducible substances e.g. the Platonic dualism of the sensible and intelligible worlds, the Cartesian dinlism of thinking and extended substances, the Leibnizian dualism of the actual and possible worlds, the Kantian dualism of the noumenal and the phenomenal. The term dualism first appeared in Thomas Hyde, Historia religionis veterum Persarum (1700) ch. IX, p. 164, where it applied to religious dualism of good and evil and is similarly employed by Bayle m his Dictionary article "Zoroaster" and by Leibniz in Theodicee. C. Wolff is responsible for its use in the psycho-physical sense, (cf. A. Lalande, Vocabulaire de la Philosophie. Vol. I, p. 180, note by R. Eucken.)
    So the word dualism, in the context of a metaphysical cosmological world view is not meant to be defined as is the popularly held view of the term that I have found bandied about on the internet and "new age" type books.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    is simply offered as another alternative. So I will respond as if the latter is the case.
    Yes, indeed, I think another alternative of choice, unaware about pre existed concepts of the word (concientialism), not intended to dialetics out of previous context.

    So, looking now at pre-definition you correctly pointed, the idea would be Concienciousness+lism, maybe a "Concienciouslism", to avoid the conventional Spiritualism that hide esoteric knowledge about psych and mental realms.

    I think any one deny that exist psych and mental phenomena, however, few acquire scientific knowledge to manage well these (abstract) nature of existence. Religious & Philosophy give some wise, but not enough, because of Veil of Ilusions.

    Universe its Mental (mentalism) and Senti-Mental (sentientialism), whereas matter and duality are created by these "creative" natures and not the other way.

    So, my question means include this another choice "Conscient" not by definition, but by Intuition.

    Quote Consciousness: (Lat. conscire, to know, to be cognizant of) A designation applied to conscious mind as opposed to a supposedly unconscious or subconscious mind (See Subconscious Mind; Unconscious Mind), and to the whole domain of the physical and non-mental. Consciousness is generally considered an indefinable term or rather a term definable only by direct introspective appeal to conscious experiences.
    At this point I even say that the snake could eats own tail, because if concious experience Its something Real, why can not be seen as Material too ?
    Last edited by rogparan; 18th November 2019 at 22:04.
    here I am, but I don't belong to this world
    So, nothing there are here belongs to me.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Sammy,

    I couldn't agree with you more. I recently saw a very interesting interview on this with Jeffrey Mishlove & Dr. Neal Grossman. I great exploration of both meanings of the term 'materialism'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXbcw5JpRuo

    Cheers,

    Kotch
    No Neurons were harmed in the production of this message!

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Quote Posted by Kotch (here)
    Sammy,

    I couldn't agree with you more. I recently saw a very interesting interview on this with Jeffrey Mishlove & Dr. Neal Grossman. I great exploration of both meanings of the term 'materialism'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXbcw5JpRuo

    Cheers,

    Kotch
    Thank you for this wonderful discussion video... definitely would be nice if the manifested post-materialism world emulated Grossman's view/dream.

    Note: I always wondered how 'deception' was left off the list of the Seven Deadly Sins.
    Last edited by Sammy; 21st November 2019 at 22:47.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    We look for complicated answers because we look out at a world that seems so complicated. Simple meanings and simple answers are not even considered...

    Materialism as a world view is not comprehensive enough to even compete as a cosmology.

    Dualism could answer the question but the idea behind it is compromised. You cannot have a cosmology that presupposes the counter-argument before it makes its own claims.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Materialism - as a cosmological, metaphysical world view

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    We look for complicated answers because we look out at a world that seems so complicated. Simple meanings and simple answers are not even considered...

    Materialism as a world view is not comprehensive enough to even compete as a cosmology.

    Dualism could answer the question but the idea behind it is compromised. You cannot have a cosmology that presupposes the counter-argument before it makes its own claims.
    I agree 100%. This is why my current (and likely lasting until the death of my body vehicle) cosmological metaphysical world view is monistic idealism.

    idealism - consciousness is fundamental

    monistic - all connected, no separation, essentially all is one.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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