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Thread: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

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    Default Apis Bull and Goat of Mendes type Figures in Ufology?

    Hello Avalon,

    This is a question that has been gnawing at me after a series of dreams in 2016 that were almost too-realistic, so whether it should be placed in a thread about dreams or contact, I am not sure. 

    Has anybody encountered, dreamed of, read about or heard of UFO occupants being a traditional type of either the Pan/Baphomet creature
    or an immense ox/water buffalo/bull-type being in the same biological format: Ox head, bipedal, humanoid upper bodily
    structure?

    Both types were navigating classic saucer UFO/glowing orb/spheres in my dreams and came to me, one on each side, the goat from my right (the
    north) and the Bull from my left (the south.)

    Is there a UFO-concordant history to these mythological figures?
    Last edited by Victoria; 5th December 2019 at 21:33.

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Despite the fact that I meet some,even human looking,none of them looks like those you described.
    "Your planet is forbidden for an open visit - extremely aggressive social environment,despite almost perfect climatic conditions.Almost 4 billion violent deaths for the last 5000 years and about 15000 major military conflicts in the same period."

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    The tale of the people of the north say they came from the mating of a monkey and a goat! "Fray", the god with horns and his twin sister "Fraya" were the result of this mating and the first humans according to this story. Horns were looked for in the 'real king' in Irish lore my grandmother told us stories about and according to this story the real king had certain signs to look for to be sure it was the "real O'Neill" it came time to get a new king. So if the birthmark and the horns were not evident somewhere they went to the next in line til they found it and when horns that could be felt and seen could show up on his head at the jaw, or the forehead or at times in the mouth or on the knees later at other times and then they'd rejoice at finding the next king. Now this may be fancifull BS too mind you.

    It is interesting to me that your dream is of the Fray or Pan character affiliated with the Fray and Fraya forming of Man. Going by memory man formed from the day the sun decided to change. This time when the sun changed it decided it was time to start over and to make some new life forms. It spat out tremendous amounts of mass and from this mass came this ball of plasma encased in water and it broke open and it spilled all over the earth and all life in this type was formed at this time on the new earth as it washed clean of the old and from this green muck all the new species grew. From this came a monkey and a goat long after the first learning plants that stung and ate meat.

    In time these land creatures formed and one day in the final phase of the sun in it's convulsions it changed once more to the yellow sun we see today and when this sun said hello the earth was ripe for the creation of the man animal. One day an Appa met a Bock and the Appa had a 'peli' and the goat had a 'pelu' in one version of this story and the Appa or monkey put his "peli" in the pelu of the Bock or Goat to express his love just as the sun changed and Fray and Fraya the first humans were made and from this they later mated to create all of mankind.
    Last edited by Ratszinger; 2nd December 2019 at 18:26.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    In relation to your post arborealis, Djinn pop into my mind.

    I'm a simple easy going guy that is very upset/sad with the worlds hidden controllers!
    We need LEADERS who bat from the HEART!
    Rise up above them Dark evil doers, not within anger but with LOVE

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Thanks all,

    I did not expect those type of beings to be maneuvering saucers, much less approaching me...even in dreams. It was very bizarre. The recognition of what they signify according to the most commonly
    referred-to cultural references of these animal gods or animal demons was very confusing for me.

    My initial interpretation from the first dream was, to beg internally, "Oh no- please tell me that Satanic Baphomet and child sacrificing Moloch are not
    actually coming to me with a purpose." It really troubled me for a while. Of course after some deliberating and reading about the basis of these historical figures, I arrive much to the same questions as with parts of Christianity and other religions...many what if's... what if everything that was really up is already down and vice versa, that everything we currently know in modern humanity is a perversion...that maybe there was nothing dark to these original entities, but that mankind or some other being attributed dark characteristics and sacrifices to them to manipulate us and disempower those entities? I've been so inundated with Christian symbolism that...maybe, just maybe, there is some other explanation or cultural history to these bull and goat beings...that somehow connects to our origins and UFOs...

    ... so maybe those beings were not representative of darkness in my dreams, as maybe they were beneficent long ago, historically. (?) ie: Brahma bulls and sacred cows in India, the Apis Bulls in Egypt or Pan, Amaltheia and Goat of Mendes before the Satanic reference...

    ---Fascinating, Ratszinger. Thank you! I will brush up on my knowledge of Vanir-Norse and Germanic Mythology. Hadn't even considered it, thanks much!

    As for the bull being, he looked quite a bit like the third character from the left in Sunny's depiction except more similar to an upright water buffalo with massive thick flattish horns that curved down behind the ears before coming up again, wearing a warrior type uniform and he was very powerfully imposing as compared to the goat, which was more of a ram with curved horns. I was frightened of the bull, not of the goat...with an overwhelming apprehension and foreboding when they both approached.


    Is that picture from a comic book? Go figure that the Djinn come up again...I suspect that Djinn or archons are responsible for many of my family's and my own experiences... * Wondering if there are actually comic books depicting Djinn...* Wow.

    Seems that even though I am new to the concept of these entities, they have a fairly common storyline and place in history as well as pop-culture consciousness. O_O It is interesting to read that there were "good" and "bad" (service to self and service to others?) members of their kind... like Angels, like humans... wouldn't that be something if at one point we all got along...

    Thanks all...
    Last edited by Victoria; 7th December 2019 at 02:46. Reason: spelling, forgetting things, legibility, on and on :-)

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    I did a short research before reply to give some tech approach in the fantastic learning about dreams. The first impressions I had remained stable, so I summarize them at the end of this research step.

    Psychoanalysis considers dreams to be always endowed with meaning, presenting contents that are subject to interpretation within a psychological framework, while almost other areas see the dreams as the most irrational and devoid of logic in human experience. (lol) So, like a psychoanalyst, I'm not intended to give answers, but inspire the dreamers to discover It by own.

    Based on the info " a series of dreams in 2016 that were almost too-realistic, " means that these dreams contains subjetive layers of information although they seem unrealistic and unreasonable. Ordinary dreams about lucid projection are more easy to identify and distinguish due to their extremely personal characteristics, so, projective themes can happen to ones that never experienced a entirely lucid major projection.

    Due to an inoperative nature, the dreamer may not always determine the oneiric images at will, but acts like a spectator or semi-spectator of a show that unfolds before it, over which it has no control, as in fact, we do not dream, we are dreamt, we suffer the dream, we are objects of the dream.

    The causes of oneiric images are highly varied. Among others we have discontinuity in the degree of extraphysical awareness, incorrect rationalization of facts occurred during authentic projections, physical or extraphysical trauma while the human body is inactive, unconscious creation of morpho-thought-forms or its reception from others. For last, not forget trivial hypothesis, like sheer hallucination due to foods or medication.

    Oneiric image born in a dream inside the consciousness, whether it is imaginative, hallucinatory, nightmarish, that can be one own morpho thought-feeling form, a form coming from another intelligence, or a distorted perception of extraphysical reality, So, dream symbols are generated in an attempt to compensate an insufficiency in the physical memory bank, called bio-memory.

    ---

    The useful tech approach worth before look objectively at the symbols, that all seems to be an Earth element of Fertility humanized creature (Pan, ox, bull). So, being a woman with fertility power, thougts, feelings or even influenced by others that eventually wants her get a baby, could be good lines of investigation about these serie of dreams.

    I suggest try remember circumstances at time these dreams happened for help more this self investigation, I think, aimed to clarify a possible compensation of psychological memory, to fill with facts that most likely happened in the dream time.

    we can call this as a "intended retro-cognition" .. to work on it will stir and relive memories but should be the shortest way .. (even can be seen as time-traveler, or retro-self-projection)
    Last edited by RogeRio; 7th December 2019 at 06:11.

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Hi Rogparan,

    Thank you for bringing the psychoanalytic approach to this. :-) Happy to explore what the beings might indicate from that perspective.

    I tend not to just look at dreams as symbolic anymore because I have had far too many too often that were precognitive, many that have left physical marks or impacted people next to me simultaneously (shared dreams) and too many life experiences that were irrational and unbelievable outside of the dream realm during conscious hours. I also suspect that many messages and communications from entities are relayed through dreams. 

    At the time of this dream sequence, I was far from home for a few weeks of training. During those weeks, I was completely alone, in class for 6-8 hours a day and studying intensely for the remainder of each day. I don't do any drugs or drink and I eat a really simple vegetarian diet- so nothing that I can think would cause any hallucinations. I was not under particularly high stress, but the training did consume absolutely all of my focus during that time.

    ...No masculine energies or males in my personal life that would have that type of view about me, none present during the training, nor did I get any sense of sexuality at all from those creatures in the dream...It was more like facing something spiritual: very old and very powerful...I had an innate recognition of them and yet was very apprehensive. One being seemed inferior to the other.  I love animals, there is really not an animal that I am afraid of anymore, so alarm about these things was out of character.

    In the dreams,at least in the first one, there was absolute darkness and I was standing on a very barren desert plain where the night sky seemed unusually low over the earth.  I could see horizon to horizon across an incredible expanse. The stars were multitudinous, and two appeared to fall from the ranks as white light orbs descending from north and south. I was facing west marveling at the galaxy unfurled above.

    There was the usual feeling of mounting dread whenever seeing these things heading toward me in real life, that sense of "not again" that is often mirrored in my dreams,  but I was astonished to find the navigators of the vessels to be what I considered mythical creatures. Not at all what I expected. Particularly surprising was that those were visages that I only knew about at the time as representing negative entities.

    Just noting that Bill's post about Chris Bledsoe's experience really struck a chord for many reasons, but per this thread, particularly because of his consistent contact with orbs and due to the bull in both the picture and his encounter.

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Quote Posted by arborealis (here)
    I tend not to just look at dreams as symbolic anymore because I have had far too many too often that were precognitive, many that have left physical marks or impacted people next to me simultaneously (shared dreams) and too many life experiences that were irrational and unbelievable outside of the dream realm during conscious hours. I also suspect that many messages and communications from entities are relayed through dreams.
    Worth to adjust the focus here. Dreams and Symbols are intimacy related. In function of (others past) events that impacted your life, we can not discard a kind of precognitive or premonitory dreams. Messages and communications through dreams is a fact, so this suspect is highly plausible.

    I'll also consider was not a bad dream, although you was apprehensive, there wasn't fear, accompanied with the mentioned innate recognition about the beings. These are good signals, represented by the psych symbols you reported.

    Quote ..there was absolute darkness and I was standing on a very barren desert plain where the night sky seemed unusually low over the earth.
    Nice !! We have here "elements of dream" to make some psych reading. These elements are very important to understand the dreams messages.

    the darkness -- means a possible change for the better

    be in total darkness -- do not hesitate to take an opportunity

    cross a desert in the company of others - Harmony between friends

    note -- regard that the "others" (goat, bull) may have been created unconscious to make sense of the dream. I'm not saying is that, you know I'm speculating beside you.

    the night sky seemed unusually low over the earth - this highly implies was not a ordinary dream, but a dreamed projection .. as your (extra-physical) awareness are not trained to do that, the projection phenomena it's seen as a dream.

    Quote There was the usual feeling of mounting dread whenever seeing these things heading toward me in real life, that sense of "not again" that is often mirrored in my dreams
    look at the sense of "not again" (for the usual feeling of mounting dread)

    if the others (bad) dreams never happened again, we can be close to a good answer

    in this sense, the fertility symbols can means a fertile idea you desire in terms of "not again" (to It works like that, or something like that)

    Quote those were visages that I only knew about at the time as representing negative entities.
    So, you may have sent (negative) entities far away from you (by the "not again")

    Regarding the previous bad experiences, maybe that was a kind of closure that you had long wished for to (not) happen (again).

    I think the weeks of training were important to accomplish this possible outcome

    ( as I said, the learning about dreams its facinating )

    -- update --
    Quote Bill's post about Chris Bledsoe's experience
    I did'nt see the videos yet (bad english).
    Last edited by RogeRio; 10th December 2019 at 09:38.

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Thank you, Rogparan! you may potentially have answered yesterday's question. My fiancé and I looked at each other and asked, "what happened? It's been a long time since any bad or frightening incidents have occurred! what caused it all to stop suddenly?"

    Quote "So, you may have sent (negative) entities far away from you (by the "not again")"


    I wonder if that is indeed what happened. :-) As simple as taking a stance against them? ... it makes me wonder: if they honor our sovereignty and command (much appreciated), could they have been that bad to begin with?

    I still am fascinated why they would be represented as a Bull and a Goat and all the different connotations of those creatures.

    Would you please direct me where to read more about "authentic projections" and "lucid projections"?

    Thank you!!

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    well, I prefer think the analysis only sniffed a warm track to choose .. it's a good first step .. explore unconscious & subconscious its like a onion .. I simple use objective & subjective inteligence to build a "potencial" way, as you said .. you give the bricks and I try to make a useful bridge to you find by yourself "what happened".

    As simple as taking a stance against them?
    -- Its multidimensional process of Will, that here on 3D linear mind seems simple Yes or No, so, your "not again" Will pass through abstract realms (psych-mental) before manifest in your physical life. In that sense, the dream is a message, a omen

    could they have been that bad to begin with?
    -- its a tricky question, because depends of the point of view (bad-good). The most commom argue is they have right to do that. It implies a kind of agreement, but you may not choose it properly. There are competition and business with living energy, as to say, livestock.

    why they would be represented as a Bull and a Goat
    -- This is my better comment for you now. Firstly need understand, interdimentional beings can appears to you like they want you see them, because from our perspective they are Balls of Energy (maybe orbs), which uses our subtil (psych&mental) planes as modeling plastic (plasma). Pehaps, they use this shape to put you On Guard and respect both (intimidating goat and bull). BTW, they don't want you know who they are. Negative beings behavior often use disguise to not be recognized, they are very astute. -lol- (to use our lack of awareness)

    Entering more deep (avoiding details), somewhat they need you forgiveness to be free from you, since they may owe you for years using you unethically. Possibly in these dreams, the subtil "part of (not again) process" was unfolded to it happen.

    you ask very good questions .. so, deserve good answers.

    where to read more about "authentic projections" and "lucid projections"
    -- I clicked two times, found and check these (not bad contents). I dont know much contents in english, and you can search much more, but be careful and prefer more tech approach than mystic or biased of cults (masonic, rosicrucian, new age , etc). Don't believe anything you can not experience by yourself.

    another hint, we share Astral Planes with animals realm and plants. These called Psych Planes (4D), are not the most subtil ones. Understand Interdimentional and Astral Planes is a kind of first step to be aware, about our (innate-spiritual) skills.

    many ignore or do not study this subject because they do not believe in it, or rather, ironically because religions repudiate. C'est la Vie !

    this one is good and simple, but I didn't find free (english) pdf
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ody-adventures

    Astral Travel for begginers - Richard Webster
    Astral Projection Workbook - JH Brennan
    the projection of the astral body - muldoon carrington
    the study and practice of astral projection - robert crookall

    more advanced book, with good tech research
    The Roots of Consciousness - Jeffrei Mishlove
    Last edited by RogeRio; 10th December 2019 at 10:04. Reason: update & books pdf

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Hello Rogparan,

    Just quickly replying to let you know I finally saw this and thank you for (as always) your deeply informative insight and for the links to astral projection resources! There is (or was) another thread, recently, about Chris Bledsoe's experiences which mentioned the bull figure in his UFO encounter and one of the responding posts referenced a cleansing ritual of being trampled by bulls or cows, that I find fascinating in connecting the material to the spiritual elements of UFO encounters and contact. Also, there was mention of the bull or goat horns being symbolic of the horned portions of the brain and amygdala in connection to memory... which is significant.

    "There are competition and business with living energy, as to say, livestock."

    Yes, I follow and resonate with what you are saying very well...as well as these beings not wanting to be recognized. That would be my gut interpretation for almost all of my experiences and many that others share here. You mention the cults of Rosicrucians and Masons, which I have in my family on both sides, maternal and paternal. Perhaps, someone other than myself made the contract and it is generational...
    lots to think about. I had thought to pursue a regression to try and remember certain aspects of my experiences and the past, and ever since simply discussing that potential which is on pause, synchronistic things are coming at me from left and right, in dreams, new experiences and memories. It's kind of boggling and amazing at the same time how everything ties together.

    Also, yes, this controlling contradiction of religion has bothered me since childhood--->: "ironically because religions repudiate." Amazing what it prevents people from seeing.

    Thank you, Rogparan. Will respond more as I can...

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Interesting thread. I’m glad Rogparan is here to give us something to chew on!

    I had a recurring nightmare as a child. It’s as clear to me today as it was fifty years ago:

    I’m sleeping in a small wooden cabin with a small window opposite me and to the right a door. The devil is walking past the window and looks in at me with evil eyes. I am terrified. I hear the hooves clomping as he passes the window and turns the corner towards the door, he’s coming to get me. The only way I can stop him getting in is to put a foot out of the bed onto the floor to wake myself up. I struggle with the inertia of sleep to do this physically but always managed to touch the floor and wake myself just as he unlatches the door.!

    The dream was always the same and I have never had recurring dreams apart from this and I kept dream diaries for decades. I think I was around 9 or 10 and unaware of consciously having been frightened by devil depictions, but it’s possible, I attended Sunday school, briefly, as I was rather disruptive with my probing questions that never received a satisfactory answer! Later in life someone suggested to me that perhaps it was Pan, but as far as I was concerned it was the devil, evil, horned, hairy, walking on hind legs with cloven hooves. Too clear for comfort. I never even made the goat comparison, this was a unique beast. Depictions I’ve since seen of Baphomet are just like it.

    I often dream of being on other worlds, sometimes futuristic, sometimes divine and sometimes very dark places doing battle with dark forces and then all the very mundane stuff so I think dreams occur on many levels, some working out anxieties, some prophetic, some, I think we are doing spiritual work on the other side. Sometimes I wake exhausted! Often I bring myself out of a dream having become aware I’m dreaming. That started long ago with the nightmares.

    I learnt recently that my grandfather was a 33rd degree Mason and Grand Master of a lodge, so it was interesting to revisit this dream in light of that. But I’m none the wiser.

    To think we spend about a third of our lives in the dreamworlds is quite extraordinary really, that’s years over a lifetime! Even more extraordinary that we understand and remember so very little about it. According to some, that is the real world, where we came from before birth and where we return at death. Interesting that if we become lucid we have the power to instantly change its ‘reality’. So everything, including this world are just manifestations of consciousness? Given the power of that, all the thought forms of billions of individuated consciousnesses create a billion different worlds and creatures? After years of interest in the subject, sorry to say, I’m no less mystified.

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Altered States Of Consciousness and Being Human from a paper I had to do in college for a class I was taking at the time. This was written in the early 80's but it seemed relevant so hopefully it will all fit in one post. If not I'll do a second.

    Human beings enter altered states of consciousness everyday. Three prominent conditions in everyday life that furnish a fertile field for investigation are sleep, hypnotic trance states, and drug induced altered states of consciousness.


    Sleep remains an unexplained necessity, and is clearly the most frequently attained altered state by consciousness. We humans for example spend a third of our lives trying to catch some z z z's.


    Hypnotic trance states can occur without a moment's notice. An example would be driving on a long stretch of highway with a resultant temporary amnesia or lost time between clock glances.


    According to one authority, "What happens regularly and frequently often remains unobserved or unrecognized, so that light trance states in daily life occur, pass unnoticed, and remain unrecorded" (LeCron, 1952. p4)


    Probably the most popular method of entering an altered state is that induced by drugs. Illegal drugs, such as marijuana, cocaine, and L.S.D., are used quite frequently.


    Perhaps just as common is the use of legally prescribed agents, such as pain killing narcotics, tricyclic antidepressants, and peyote, mushrooms, or ayahuasca stemming from traditional native cultures both in the Americas and in other places around the world.


    These practices are among others such as D.M.T experiences which have grown in popularity in recent years.


    You would think that after two hundred years of study that science would understand hypnosis and other altered states of consciousness better than it does, but unfortunately the opposite is true. The fact that altered states, induced by any of these three methods, is not clearly understood deserves further discussion.


    Sleep affects us all, and as stated previously, it is the most frequently attained altered state known to man.


    Most people give up fully a third of their lives to sleep and think very little of it unless it becomes a problem.


    Though the abundance of current information conveys the impression that science is on the verge of a discovery that could affect millions of lives, it remains clear that sleep research is still a maze of conflicting ideas, theories, and speculations. Indeed, understanding sleep is one of man's most challenging puzzles.


    There are many theories attempting to explain why we sleep.


    The adaptive theory claims that man's need for sleep results from evolution. Wilse B. Webb, one of the foremost sleep researchers, believes that over millions of years each species developed a sleep pattern that best enabled it to survive.


    His hypothesis is simply that, "Sleep, evolved in each species as a form of non-behavior, when not responding in the environment would increase survival chances." (Webb. 1974, p.p. 158-59).


    Sleep reflects the species' need for safety. In pre-historic times it would have been safer to stay in the cave and sleep than to prowl in harm's way. According to some theorists sleep is the original and basic state of life. "At first it is continuous; but as development proceeds, this perpetual sleep may be interrupted by what we term arousal stimuli" (Hoffman-Larouche, 1966. p 7)


    I believe that Ernest Hartmann is on to something in his belief that sleep has a restorative function. He believes that sleep consolidates disruptive, stressful events of the day into a person's normal emotional and learning systems. Interestingly, most people do require more deep sleep, and dream sleep after a stressful experience. (Hartmann, 1974. p. 145)


    It's also interesting to note that many people from prize fighters to presidents have found it beneficial to take short naps in the daytime to refresh and give them new energy for their activities. Hartmann's theories are very close to those of Sigmund Freud's theories on sleep.


    Also, Carl Jung's collective unconscious theories and belief that sleep provides a more appropriate context for non linear synthesis of conscious & unconscious material as well as, resulting in almost para-normal predictive capabilities with some individuals proves Hartmann is probably on the right track.

    Perhaps the Chinese are on to something in their belief that sleep has a restorative function, and that dreams are extensions of reality.


    They believe that the soul is involved in dreams and that it can and does wander from the body while the person is sleeping. Hence, to this day a sleeper is not hastily aroused in China (Dement, 1974. p. 3)


    Some people claim that during sleep they leave their body and visit far away places and friends, and often they can describe in great detail the surroundings they visited.


    Out of body experiences or OOBE's are universal human experiences. Not in the sense that they happen to large numbers of people, but in that it has happened throughout recorded history.


    "There are marked similarities, for example in the experience among people who are otherwise extremely different in terms of cultural background ."


    One can find reports of OOBE's from ancient Egyptian sources that closely resemble accounts from housewives in Virginia Beach, VA. (Monroe, 1985. p. 5)


    People who have had OOBE's insist that they are different than normal dreams or waking fantasies. Jung would call these, "Numinous" or nightly important dreams.


    Whatever sleep's purpose may be, it seems that primitive societies have a better grasp of it's functions than does modern science.


    It seems that the only thing modern researchers can agree on about sleep is that it is an altered state of consciousness.


    While it is a fact that Psychologists regard dreams of patients as clues to the malfunctionings of their personalities, even in this application dreams and other nocturnal experiences are not regarded as real in any sense by specialists.


    And that brings us to our next discussion, light trance and hypnotic states of consciousness.

    There are trance conditions in everyday life worth investigation. For example, driving an automobile on a long stretch of highway, a highway made for maximum smoothness combined with driving at night with little traffic to stimulate you so there is few to no distractions. Everyone can be susceptible to this.


    Add these things to the constant hum of the engine, the gentle swaying back and forth combined with the road noise or 'white noise' and it can create conditions conducive to a hyptnotic state. "


    Some have developed an acute fear of such conditions and seek aid for what they consider to be recurrent attacks of amnesia. (LeCron, 1952. p. 5) On more than one occasion in my life I have been startled by the gravel and roughness of the shoulder of the road due to driving too long and starting to drift off.


    That brief nod off and the car goes off the burm just enough to hit something making a different sound is all it takes to shake one up to rise above drifting off. I am sure more than one person has left this life just this way though so I was lucky.


    Another condition conducive to a light trance state is fishing, especially fishing from a boat on a calm sheet of glass like water with only the gentle breeze and slight ripples now and then to move the boat ever so gently.


    The reflection of the sun glinting off the water, the gentle rock of the vessel in the water combined with nature can cause even a wide awake person with coffee in his belly to space off into a daydream. In the far north the Eskimos experience what they term "kayak disease," which is feeling of paralysis accompanied by a feeling of separateness from themselves.


    It is thought to be the result of many hours of sitting idle on the ocean waiting for seals to surface. (LeCron, 1952. p. 15)


    Abraham Maslow would agree here at least in part, as humans have stimulus needs and if deprived of sensory input for too long the mind begins to create it's own reality depending on and related to his theories on hierarchy of needs.


    In his theory from 1943 titled, A Theory of Human Motivation and his later book from 1954 titled Motivation and Personality discuss and lay out the pyramid for his hierarchy of needs from the most fundamental of needs to the most advanced in the species development apexing at morality and creativity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow'...archy_of_needs


    Due to some of these discoveries from various cultures around the globe we have every reason to believe that primitive peoples had knowledge of hypnotic and other trance like states. In the Eskimo tribes the Inuit peoples. made extensive use of trance.


    We know from old writings that Eskimo and Araucano medicine men are able to hypnotize their entire audience to the extent that it appears that the medicine man opens up the body of the patient and handles the intestines or other afflicted part and then closes the body without leaving any traces save for some small amounts of blood droplets here and there on occasion.


    This practice has caused many white travelers to think the medicine men to be great surgeons, when they are not great surgeons but simply great hypnotists! (LeCron, 1952.p.16)


    Hypnosis it seems, is as old as man. (LeCron, 1952.p9.) In early history, hypnosis appears as a fairly well developed art.


    We have evidence of trance being practiced in China in the eighteenth century B.C. induced by singing and dancing.


    At the opening of the Christian era it was possible for the Chinese to get information not otherwise available and to do so by the aid of a forked stick held by two people during ceremonies.


    Many people in the United States are drinking from wells that were found by a diviner using a diving rod or 'forked stick'.


    Usually these gifted people claim to be in a neutral or other state of mind when performing this task. (Sugrue, 1973. p. 101.)


    Others like the late Edgar Cayce, also referred to as the sleeping prophet, saw sleep and trance states as a way to garner knowledge otherwise unavailable to the human perception. The Japanese developed the art of listening to insects across the country side.


    The Greeks interpreted the wind as it whisped through the trees and we have countless records of various ways fire has been used ceremonially for just such a thing also, probably since it's discovery by primitive man. (Wolfberg, 1945.p.48).


    Even primitive cultures noted the uses of hypnosis. It was no secret that hypnotic states aided in memory recall, and acted as an anesthetic and analgesic, as well as a way of expanding mental awareness. 'It has been claimed that strange telepathic powers could be evoked under hypnosis' (Wolfberg 1945.p.52)


    In the 1700's when Franz Anton Mesmer was conducting his therapeudic sessions dealing with trance states, he called it animal magnetism. One patient of Mesmer's while under hypnosis, not only saw his lost pet dog, but actually gave specific instructions enabling a gendarme to locate and retrieve the animal for it's owner. (LeCron, 1952.p.362).


    Now even though Mesmer was discredited his methods and theories have survived and they prosper! In 1846 a Scottish doctor, James Esdaile reported on 345 major operations performed with hypnosis as the only anesthetic. (Hilgard, 1975.p.4)


    Today, dentists across the nation use hypnosis and other mild relaxation techniques to work on patients on occasion calling in specialists to relax patients known for a lot of fear issues while in the operatory chair. (personal interview)


    Sigmund Freud is known to have used hypnosis quite regularly, thinking it a great tool for unlocking sub-conscious blocks from past mental and emotional traumas. (Professor Gabrial Rupp -personal interview El-Reno CC> OK 1989). It is also widely reported that Freud experimented with drugs, particularly cocaine.


    While cocaine may not be a trance inducing drug, it does allow one to enter into an altered state of consciousness, and that is our next topic of discussion, drug induced altered states.


    Drugs alter our vibration, thus altering our bodies and our minds as well as our perceptions. The Native American Church uses peyote ritualistically to 'talk to god'. It is true that this is done under controlled circumstances and it is used here to make a point.


    Human beings like being in altered states of consciousness! One researcher has stated that "I am a great believer in the value of being high". High states of consciousness show us the potential of our nervous systems.


    They help us to integrate mind and body" (Weil, 1980. p. 87)
    One need not look too much for further proof that we like being in an altered state if you check alcohol sales and the volume consumed worldwide on an annual basis.


    Today it is not uncommon for a physician to prescribe any number of drugs to a patient for all manner of symptoms and even hand out samples of various drugs, some quite powerful, like they were candy!


    As stated above, drugs alter our vibration, changing our state of consciousness as well as our physical body.


    By altering the vibrational frequency of the body the body heals. It can be argued that this 'healing device' or mechanism to change the frequency of the body can be done in other ways such as through neuro linguistic programming or NLP.


    We can alter our vibration and our perception simply by wiping the disc, reformatting and simply re-writing the program in our own minds thus changing our bodies and our reality in minutes. (Anthony Robbins, 1986)


    Cannabis is one of the world's oldest useful plants.


    The history of cannabis is so long it is difficult to say if this plant's relationship with man is older or younger than man's relationship with the wolf which was to become the modern canine as we know it today.


    Isn't it strange that truly wild hemp or plants grown independent of man's help is virtually unknown?


    We find evidence of primitive societies using hemp based drugs for their medical uses to induce light trances with evidence of controlling doses to get the desired effects. (LeCron. 1952).


    Modern psychiatry has utilized drugs for well over 70 years. It has been proven that the drug Evipan, when injected intravenously can produce a state indistinguishable from a verbally induced hypnosis. (LeCron. 1952. p. 141)


    In 1936 the drug Sodium Pentothal was first used in psychiatry. After this many questions arose as to whether narcosis and hypnosis are identical.


    Controversy still exists over this question.


    It appears for now anyway, that modern science cannot distinguish between the two..


    It seems the only real benefit to the narcotic is the speed with which it takes effect where a verbal session and hypnosis could be anywhere from five minutes to hours and hours of trying. (LeCron, 1952.p.142)


    Personally I believe the one difference between a narcosis and a hypnosis is the psychic or para-normal aspect seems to be a non issue with drugs.


    Very rarely does a doctor observe strange psychic output or witness the patient display exceptional control over the body and it's functions as has been witnessed and repeated to be proven in hypnotized patients. (Lecron 1952, p.142)


    In the end life and history teaches us that there are many ways to achieve a high.


    One can get high from music, dance, sports activities, sex, gambling, drugs, or even from running! Surprise surprise we find that even pain can get some people high!


    Many people believe that because one can get the same result from so many various methods that it indicates strongly that the experiences come from within us and not from the drug but that quite simply the drug is the placebo or trigger to cause the release of the endorphins by the body to cause the high.


    According to one authority on the subject, any experience induced by drugs can be experienced without drugs because the bodies natural endorphins are responsible for the resulting feelings of being altered not the drug.


    In other words it is the bodies reaction to the drug that produces the high. (Beck, 1987.p.8) They contend that the euphoria of a great accomplishment has the same effect physiologically as a drug induced sense of euphoria.


    These experts also contend that anything strongly visualized can cause the body to react and respond as if the event actually takes place. Hence, the response of a mental patient's body when he or she is hallucinating.


    To the patient in these instances the events perceived are real, yet the hallucination is an altered state of cosciousness of course and not real. The question of what is real and what is not certainly becomes vague at best in some settings.


    While this treatment may be the best for some patients, I feel a guided visualization technique could be devised and adapted to each specific person's needs. If developed and brought to fruition this could surpass the results seen from drugs.


    Perhaps those too restless for verbal hypnosis could be relaxed using a narcotic first, and then taken into a guided visual relaxation guided by images of normalcy to aid bringing them back to reality again.


    It seems to me that patients generally live up to the labels they are given. If a person cannot live out the label given them by society sooner or later they do live up to it. I contend that the patient can be reprogrammed to normalcy by seeing himself often as normal in visualization exercises.


    Altered states and man seem to go hand in hand. Society today has a vast array of choices for how to achieve their preferred high.


    History shows us that humans like being high. Perhaps feelings of freedom or the thrill of overcoming fear, or imagining you are flying are just too much to turn down when offered or perhaps its just human nature to never be satisfied and always seek satisfaction regardless of what it takes.


    Whatever the case it appears altered states are a common theme in many lives and that regardless of where we come from on the planet we share this common aspect experiencing this aspect of consciousness through various means, using various tools, techniques and routines each day and night of our lives from the moment of our awakening at birth to our last breath.


    Copyright 1989 TNT

    Bibliography Cited:


    1) Beck, James, Deva Beck (1987). The Pleasure Connection

    Anaheim Synthesis Press.

    2) Dement, William C. (1974). Some must watch while some must sleep.

    San Francisco: W.H. Freeman

    3) Hartmann, Ernest L. (1973). The Functions of Sleep

    New Haven: Yale.

    4) Hilgard, Ernest R. (1975) William Kaufman. Hypnosis in Relief of Pain.

    Los Altos Cal.

    5) Hoffman-Larouche Inc. (1966). Nutley, NJ: The Anatomy of Sleep.

    6) LeCron, Leslie M. (1952). the McMillan Company New York.Experimental Hypnosis

    7) Monroe, Robert A. (1985). Double Day Anchor Press. New York.Journeys Out Of The Body

    8) Robbins, Anthony. (1986) Simon & Schuster, New York.

    9) Rupp, Gabriel (1989) Class Discussion personal interview conducted later by me.

    10) Sugrue, Thomas (1973) A.R.E. Press Virginia Beach. There is a River, The Story Of Edgar Cayce

    11) Webb, Wilse B. Englewood, Hall, (1975). Prentice Hall. NY. Sleep: The Gentle Tyrant

    12) Weil, Andrew (1980). Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston. The Marriage of the Sun and the Moon

    13) Wolberg, Lewis Rober. (1945). Grune & Stratton, New YorkHypnoanalysis.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Good paper Ratszinger. Confirms my suspicion that no-one’s really got much clue on this dreamworld business or consciousness. Except maybe the bard. “We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little lives are rounded with a sleep”.

    As for reprogramming people to be normal, another quote springs to mind, “it is not a sign of mental health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society” Krishnamurti.

    People are often transformed by OOBEs or NDEs with a completely different world view following the experience, yet we all doubt that their experience has anything to do with reality...consensus reality doesn’t begin to touch on the bigger picture.

    Hamlet:

    To die, to sleep,
    perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub,
    For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
    When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
    Must give us pause.

    and still does 500 years later...

    😌 Sweet Dreams

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Sleep remains an unexplained necessity, and is clearly the most frequently attained altered state by consciousness. We humans for example spend a third of our lives trying to catch some z z z's.
    I disagree it is unexplained.

    although this point has been addressed indirectly in the text (with good approach, indeed), I think I know a direct answer but I will try to do it didactically:

    1 - humans are half animals .. ok ?
    2 - animals are half vegetals .. ok ? (have involuntary bio-mechanisms)
    3 - vegetals need to sleep at nigth .. ok ? (no light to do photosynthesis)

    Quote Perhaps the Chinese are on to something in their belief that sleep has a restorative function
    not pehaps .. SURE !
    (and if it sure, don't need to believe anymore on this regard)

    I have no more objections about the post contents .. thanks Ratszinger to share

    PS - The (involuntary) para-sympathetic nervous system, which controls digestion (and various other metabolic functions), consumes a lot of bio-energy. So we feel like resting after a good meal and getting a nap its very nice for this. A pure human vegetative state only happens (scientifically) with brain death, as to say.
    Last edited by RogeRio; 18th December 2019 at 15:18.

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Quote Posted by rogparan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Sleep remains an unexplained necessity, and is clearly the most frequently attained altered state by consciousness. We humans for example spend a third of our lives trying to catch some z z z's.
    I disagree it is unexplained.

    although this point has been addressed indirectly in the text (with good approach, indeed), I think I know a direct answer but I will try to do it didactically:

    1 - humans are half animals .. ok ?
    2 - animals are half vegetals .. ok ? (have involuntary bio-mechanisms)
    3 - vegetals need to sleep at nigth .. ok ? (no light to do photosynthesis)

    Quote Perhaps the Chinese are on to something in their belief that sleep has a restorative function
    not pehaps .. SURE !
    (and if it sure, don't need to believe anymore on this regard)

    I have no more objections about the post contents .. thanks Ratszinger to share

    PS - The (involuntary) para-sympathetic nervous system, which controls digestion (and various other metabolic functions), consumes a lot of bio-energy. So we feel like resting after a good meal and getting a nap its very nice for this.
    Sorry but you are dead wrong. Sleep research and sleep medicine are both very real and active even ongoing as I type. It sleep were explained this would be unneeded. The fact it exists and that sleep medicine and insomnia specialists exist slaps any suggestion of sleep being explained in the face. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If specialists still study and do not have explanations, or ability to help all those that do have sleep disorders and specialists to help answer these questions exist then sleep is not explained. It is still very much a mystery and for some people even difficult to attain to the proper doses each night. Explained would suggest you could treat these things and cure these people. I don't think you can do that.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Sorry but you are dead wrong.
    sorry, but not agree, not grants one be rigth .. we'll see
    (moral argue its not tech knowledge)

    ---

    Sleep research and sleep medicine are both very real and active even ongoing as I type.
    -/ I agree .. I'm para-psych researcher

    It sleep were explained this would be unneeded.
    -/ Ah Hé ? this contraditcs above -- if unneeded why research is real ?

    The fact it exists and that sleep medicine and insomnia specialists exist slaps any suggestion of sleep being explained in the face.
    -
    / I give my point of view, and not from a specialist .. you have not pointed errors on my points .. a good expert would not do that, because there is nothing wrong with my points (didactically) explained.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
    -/
    not for me .. this is only your opinion, that probably didn't understood the "dimension" of thought I shared.

    If specialists still study and do not have explanations, or ability to help all those that do have sleep disorders and specialists to help answer these questions exist then sleep is not explained.
    -
    / not explained by mainstream, but Esoterism always study and explain sleep, dreams, trance, altered states of consciousness, since ancient times.

    It is still very much a mystery and for some people even difficult to attain to the proper doses each night.
    -/ I don't need to comment this to defend my points.

    Explained would suggest you could treat these things and cure these people.
    I don't think you can do that.
    -
    / you don't know me .. I'm not said If I can or not .. this is assumption about assumption without any argument I have said .. either assuming you know how much I know and how much I can (whitout know me, indeed)

    ---

    sorry, but I only did an objection, intellectually legitimate on PS
    I apologize, I was unaware you dont like be objected in a forum.
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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Quote Posted by rogparan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Sorry but you are dead wrong.
    sorry, but not agree, not grants one be rigth .. we'll see
    (moral argue its not tech knowledge)

    ---

    Sleep research and sleep medicine are both very real and active even ongoing as I type.
    -/ I agree .. I'm para-psych researcher

    It sleep were explained this would be unneeded.
    -/ Ah Hé ? this contraditcs above -- if unneeded why research is real ?

    The fact it exists and that sleep medicine and insomnia specialists exist slaps any suggestion of sleep being explained in the face.
    -
    / I give my point of view, and not from a specialist .. you have not pointed errors on my points .. a good expert would not do that, because there is nothing wrong with my points (didactically) explained.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
    -/
    not for me .. this is only your opinion, that probably didn't understood the "dimension" of thought I shared.

    If specialists still study and do not have explanations, or ability to help all those that do have sleep disorders and specialists to help answer these questions exist then sleep is not explained.
    -
    / not explained by mainstream, but Esoterism always study and explain sleep, dreams, trance, altered states of consciousness, since ancient times.

    It is still very much a mystery and for some people even difficult to attain to the proper doses each night.
    -/ I don't need to comment this to defend my points.

    Explained would suggest you could treat these things and cure these people.
    I don't think you can do that.
    -
    / you don't know me .. I'm not said If I can or not .. this is assumption about assumption without any argument I have said .. either assuming you know how much I know and how much I can (whitout know me, indeed)

    ---

    sorry, but I only did an objection, intellectually legitimate on PS
    I apologize, I was unaware you dont like be objected in a forum.

    I don't see you as an expert or myself to be perfectly honest and I haven't seen any of your patients making you famous for helping them or any books of your claims. Do you have such documentation to prove you can help people because I don't think you can explain sleep today any better or more in depth than they could in the 80s when I wrote that paper.

    Dimension of thought shared? Please! We called mine and my wife's dental practice a practice because we continually practiced that skill set. I don't have a problem with objection. I don't need to know you to know what you stated in your claim. That "SLEEP IS EXPLAINED" I still contend that no it is not and you have not convinced me.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    I don't see you as an expert
    you don't know me, as I said .. moral argues its sofism, proselitism, etc.

    I don't discuss subjects without substances to be discussed, I'm sorry.
    (no more replys on this regard)

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    Default Re: Apis and Goat of Mendes Figures in Ufology?

    Hi Phoenix1304!    Those recurring dreams are the type I am fascinated by...it's interesting that as a child, you were terrified he was coming to get you...there's the parallel to abductions, but also I wonder, if there is a connection to psychic attacks while in that state? As children might we see these intrusions as frightening creatures, which adults would tell us are part of our imaginations, but... what if children are actually sensing something very real, sentient yet malevolent, and are identifying it as best they can.

    I had several recurring dreams as a child, too, that lasted until mid-adulthood...sometimes they would pick up where they left off, sometimes it would be just the same thing over and over and over, which always made we wonder were they just dreams, or part of a real memory or something more. 

    Maybe we are warriors in another light.  Like you, I have dreamed of fighting different wars in bizarre, futuristic other-worlds and sometimes wake exhausted, my mind reeling with the energy of the dream for the rest of the day.  I, too, have come to the personal conclusion that we may actually do work on the other side and only recall it when we wake and remember our sleep.

    So, it is comforting to read that you have considered the same. Thank you for sharing. When I've tried to bring this theory up to people, typically I get the basic medical and psychological rebuttals about dreams being "symptomatic of" or  "side effects of" this, that and the other. Never any real contemplation that we might really be doing something more than recuperating while comatose, healing at the cellular level, recharging, reliving traumas, etc.

    I suspect (yet have no proof) that there might be groups (government, military, ?) who can use us in that state to locate and track targets, collect information, train and do combat. Almost like remote viewing, but having someone else guide and monitor through our eyes as we sleep. SO many dreams I am checking in and checking out with sentry stations before going to different places and/or waking up from sleep.

    Where you were seeing a Baphomet type creature as a child, mine was a black dog with red eyes staring at me outside of the window. It would just kind of materialize, no matter what I was doing or where I was...It would be behind me, mere inches away, usually separated only by thin glass...  that dream plagued me. That and a dream of thousands of spiders surrounding me, staring at me with a million eyes.

    Regarding Baphomet and Pan,

    When I started researching horned gods and horned demons recently to get an idea of what various cultures around the world believed them to be, it was shocking to see how prevalent the images are historically.

    I was equally shocked by how common these horned entities seem to be in music videos, video games and pop culture today!  Images of the goat and bull gods (demons?) are literally everywhere these days...and it seems historically, horns even adorned the images of Moses and Yahweh. My jaw dropped.

    With such a tremendous amount of mythology and art depicting horned beings, I have to wonder if there isn't some basis of truth to them existing beyond the mythic.

    These are some of the images I found just browsing google under horned gods and demons (apparently we can only attach 5 per post, so will attach others below):Click image for larger version

Name:	800px-hittite_bull_rhyton_at_the_met_by_mark_dawson.jpg
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    Hittite Bull at the Met (photo by Mark Dawson)
    Click image for larger version

Name:	alexander TG horned.png
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ID:	42082
    Alexander the Great with horns
    Click image for larger version

Name:	apis bull.jpg
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ID:	42083
    Apis Bull
    Click image for larger version

Name:	atlantis bull.jpg
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ID:	42084
    Atlantis Bull
    Click image for larger version

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ID:	42085
    Baal
    Last edited by Victoria; 22nd December 2019 at 06:15.

  40. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Victoria For This Post:

    Anka (22nd December 2019), EFO (22nd December 2019), RogeRio (22nd December 2019)

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