+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: Our Finite world

  1. Link to Post #1
    Canada Avalon Member kfm27917's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th June 2019
    Kamloops BC
    Thanked 507 times in 77 posts

    Default Our Finite world

    Scientific Models and Myths: What Is the Difference?
    Posted on December 17, 2019 by Gail Tverberg
    Most people seem to think, “The difference between models and myths is that models are scientific, and myths are the conjectures of primitive people who do not have access to scientific thinking and computers. With scientific models, we have moved far beyond myths.” It seems to me that the truth is quite different from this.
    History shows a repeated pattern of overshoot and collapse. William Catton wrote about this issue in his highly acclaimed 1980 book, Overshoot.

    Figure 1. Depiction of Overshoot and Collapse by Paul Chefurka
    What politicians, economists, and academic book publishers would like us to believe is that the world is full of limitless possibilities. World population can continue to rise. World leaders are in charge. Our big problem, if we believe today’s models, is that humans are consuming fossil fuel at too high a rate. If we cannot quickly transition to a low carbon economy, perhaps based on wind, solar and hydroelectric, the climate will change uncontrollably. The problem will then be all our fault. The story, supposedly based on scientific models, has almost become a new religion.
    Recent Attempted Shifts to Wind, Solar and Hydroelectric Are Working Poorly
    Of course, if we check to see what has happened when economies have actually attempted to switch to wind, water and hydroelectric, we see one bad outcome after another.
    [1] Australia’s attempt to put renewable electricity on the grid has sent electricity prices skyrocketing and resulted in increased blackouts. It has been said that intermittent electricity has “wrecked the grid” in Australia.
    [2] California, with all of its renewables, has badly neglected its grid, leading to many damaging wildfires. Renewables need disproportionately more long distance transmission, partly because they tend to be located away from population centers and partly because transmission must be scaled for peak use. It is evident that California has not been collecting a high enough price for electricity to cover the full cost of grid maintenance and upgrades.

    Figure 2. California electricity consumption including amounts imported from out of state, based on EIA data. Amounts shown are average daily amounts, by month.
    [3] The International Rivers Organization writes that Large Dams Just Aren’t Worth the Cost. Part of the problem is the huge number of people who must be moved from their ancestral homeland and their inability to adapt well to their new location. Part of the problem is the environmental damage caused by the dams. To make matters worse, a study of 245 large dams built between 1934 and 2007 showed that without even taking into account social and environmental impacts, the actual construction costs were too high to yield a positive return.
    Developed economies have made hydroelectric power work adequately in areas with significant snow melt. At this point, evidence is lacking that large hydroelectric dams work well elsewhere. Significant variation in rainfall (year-to-year or seasonally) seems to be particularly problematic, because without fossil fuel backup, businesses cannot rely on year-around electricity supply.
    The Pattern of Overshoot and Collapse Is Well-Established
    Back in 1974, Henry Kissinger said in an interview:
    I think of myself as a historian more than as a statesman. As a historian, you have to be conscious of the fact that every civilization that has ever existed has ultimately collapsed. [Emphasis added.]
    History is a tale of efforts that failed, of aspirations that weren’t realized, of wishes that were fulfilled and then turned out to be different from what one expected. So, as a historian, one has to live with a sense of the inevitability of tragedy. As a statesman, one has to act on the assumption that problems must be solved.
    Historians tend to define collapse more broadly than “the top level of government disappearing.” Collapse includes many ways of an economy failing. It includes losing at war, population decline because of epidemics, governments overthrown by internal dissent, and governments that cannot repay debt with interest, and failing for this reason.
    A basic issue that often underlies collapse is falling average resources per person. These falling average resources per person can take several forms:
     Population rises, but land available for farming doesn’t rise.
     Mines and wells deplete, requiring more effort for extraction.
     Soil erodes or becomes polluted with salt, reducing crop yields.
    One of the other issues is that as resources per capita become stretched, it becomes harder and harder to set aside a margin for a “rainy day” or a drought. Thus, weather or climate variations may push an economy over the edge, as resources per person become more stretched.
    Scientific Models Too Often Prove Whatever the Grant Provider Wants Proven
    It is incredibly difficult to figure out what the future will hold. Our experience is almost entirely with a growing economy. It is easy to accidentally build this past experience into a model of the future, even when we are trying to make realistic assumptions. For example, when making pension models in the early 1980s, actuaries would see interest rates of 10% and assume that interest rates could remain this high indefinitely.
    The question of whether prices will rise to allow future energy extraction is another problematic area. If we believe standard economic theory, prices can be expected to rise when resources are in short supply. But if we look at Revelation 18: 11-17, we find that when Babylon collapsed, the problem was low prices and lack of demand. There were not even buyers for slaves, and these were the energy product of the day. The Great Depression of the 1930s showed a similar low-price pattern. Today’s economic model seems to need refinement, if it is to account for how prices really seem to behave in collapses.
    If there is an issue that is difficult to evaluate in making a forecast, the easiest approach for researchers to take is to omit it. For example, the intermittency of wind and solar can effectively be left out by assuming that (a) the different types of intermittency will cancel out, or (b) intermittency will be inexpensive to fix or (c) intermittency will be handled by a different part of the research project.
    To further complicate matters, researchers often find that their compensation is tied to their ability to get grants to fund their research. These research grants have been put together by organizations that are concerned about the future. These organizations are looking for research that will match their understanding of today’s problems and their proposed solutions for the future.
    A person can guess how this arrangement tends to work out. Any researcher who points out endless problems, or says that the proposed solution is impossible, won’t get funding. To get funding, at least some partial solution must be provided along the lines outlined in the Request for Proposal, regardless of how unlikely the proposed solution is. Research showing that the grant-writer’s view of the future is not really correct is left to retired researchers and others willing to work for little compensation. All too often, published research tends to say whatever the groups funding the research studies want the studies to say.
    Myths Are of Many Types; Many Are Aimed at Giving Good Advice
    The fact that myths have survived through the ages lets us know that at least some people found the insights that they provided were worthwhile.
    If an ancient people did not know how the earth and the people on it came into being, they would likely come up with a myth explaining the situation. Most of us today would not believe myths about Thor, for example, but (as far as we know) no one was being paid to put together stories about Thor and how powerful he was. The myths were stories that people found sufficiently useful and entertaining to pass along. In some sense, this background gives these stories more value than a paper written in order to obtain funds provided by a research grant.
    Some myths relate to what types of activities by humans were desirable or undesirable. For example, the people in Uganda have traditional folklore about a moral monster that is used to teach children the dangers of craftiness and deceit. My sister who visited Uganda reported that where she visited, people believed that people who stole someone else’s crops were likely to get sick. Most of us wouldn’t think that this story was really right, but it has a moral purpose behind it. There are no doubt many myths of this type. They have been passed on because passing them on seemed to serve a purpose.
    Clearly, which actions are desirable or undesirable changes over time. For example, Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:11 seem to condemn wearing fabrics that are a mix of linen and wool. Today, we use many fabrics that are mixes of two types of yarns. Perhaps there was a problem with different amounts of shrinkage. Today, our issues are different. Perhaps myths associated with issues such as these need to be discarded, because they are not relevant anymore.
    How about myths of an afterlife? Things on earth don’t necessarily go well. The promise of a favorable afterlife has a definite appeal. Some people would even like a story in which people who don’t act in the desired manner are punished. Some religions seem to provide such an ending as well.
    Follow a Religion Based on Scientific Models, or Based on Myth, or Neither?
    Nature’s solutions and mankind’s solutions in a finite world both involve complexity, but the two types of complexity are very different.
    Mankind’s solutions seem to involve more and more devices using an increased amount of resources and debt. The overhead of the system becomes greater and greater as the economy increasingly shifts toward robots and owners/overseers of the robots. The big problem that can be expected to develop comes from not having enough purchasers who can afford to purchase the end products created by this system. In fact, we seem to already be reaching an era of too much wage disparity and too much wealth disparity. Eventually, such a system can be expected to collapse under its own weight.
    We can already see signs that wind and solar are not scalable to the extent that people would like them to be. Together, they currently comprise only 3% of the world’s energy supply. We need very large supplies of energy to provide food, housing, and transportation for 7.7 billion people.

    Figure 3. World Energy Consumption by Fuel, based on data of 2019 BP Statistical Review of World Energy.
    Regardless of what politicians would like proven, nature doesn’t move in a constant path upward. Instead, nature provides a self-organizing system of individual parts, none of which is permanent. Humans are temporary residents of this earth. Businesses are temporary, and the products they sell are constantly changing and adapting. Governments are temporary. Weather patterns are also temporary. Religions are constantly changing and adapting, and new ones are formed.
    Nature’s way doesn’t seem to require much overhead. Over the long run, it seems to be much more permanent than mankind’s attempts at solutions. As the system changes, each replacement differs in random ways from previous systems of a particular type. The best adapted replacements survive, without the need for excessive overhead to the system.
    We may or may not agree with the religions that have formed over the years in the self-organizing way that nature provides. The fact that religions have stayed around indicates that at least for some people, they continue to play a significant role. If nothing else, religious groups often provide social gatherings with others in the area. This provides an opportunity for friendship. In some cases, it will allow people to find potential marriage partners who are not closely related.
    One of the roles of religions is to pass down “best practices.” These will change over time so some will need to be discarded and changed. For example, in some eras, it will be optimal for women to have several children. In others, it will make sense to have only one or two.
    The book, Oneness: Great Principles Shared by All Religions by Jeffrey Moses, lists 64 principles shared by several religions. Of course, not all religions agree on all of these 64 principles. Instead, there seems to be a great deal of overlap in what religions of the world teach. Some sample truths include “The Golden Rule,” it is “Blessed to Forgive,” “Seek and Ye Shall Find,” and “There Are Many Paths to God.” This type of advice can be helpful for people.
    People will differ on whether it makes sense to believe that there really is an afterlife. There may very well be; we can’t know for certain. At least this is better odds than the knowledge that all earthly civilizations have eventually failed.
    I personally have found belonging to and attending an ELCA Lutheran Church to be helpful. I find its earthly benefits to be sufficient, whether or not there is an afterlife. I will, of course, be attending around Christmas time. I will also be getting together with family.
    I recognize, too, that not everyone is interested in one of the traditional religions. Some would even like to believe that with our advanced science, we can now find a way around every problem that confronts us. Perhaps this time is different. Perhaps this time, world leaders, with their love for overhead-heavy solutions, will finally discover a solution that can produce long-term growth on a finite earth. Perhaps energy from fusion is around the corner. Wish! Wish!
    My wish to you is that you have Happy Holidays, of whatever types you choose to celebrate!

    book at

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to kfm27917 For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (6th January 2020), conk (6th January 2020), Elixir (6th January 2020), Ernie Nemeth (8th January 2020), Keyholder (6th January 2020), toppy (6th January 2020), Victoria (8th January 2020), wnlight (6th January 2020)

  3. Link to Post #2
    Netherlands Avalon Member ExomatrixTV's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd September 2011
    Thanked 21,283 times in 3,524 posts

    Default Re: Our Finite world

    Peak Oil is a Corrupt Globalist Scam
    ~no need2follow anyone only consider to broaden (y)our horizon of possibilities
    ~new: Stop5G.net & FB Groups/Stop5G

  4. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ExomatrixTV For This Post:

    conk (6th January 2020), Elixir (6th January 2020), onawah (8th January 2020), onevoice (6th January 2020), Victoria (9th January 2020)

  5. Link to Post #3
    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
    Join Date
    28th March 2010
    Thanked 52,594 times in 10,586 posts

    Default Re: Our Finite world

    Are We Entering a Mass Extinction Event?
    by Dr. Joseph Mercola
    January 07, 2020

    An analysis of biodiversity and animal population paints a bleak picture of biological extinction
    Mass extinction robs humans of crucial ecosystems used to pollinate plants, control pests and purify water; technology and the globalization of farming practices have led to increased production of cheap food
    Bankruptcies on small farms are up 12% in the Midwest and 50% in the Northwest. Farm debt is at an all-time high with more than half reporting losses every year since 2013
    Financial instability and bankruptcy, fed by trade wars with China, may also be responsible for the rising number of suicides among farmers
    The loss of small farms also affects the surrounding communities that rely on the farmers’ businesses. You may impact your local area by purchasing produce, meat and dairy from regenerative, organic farmers

    "Like the human body, the environment involves multiple systems and complex interrelationships among them. It is next to impossible to trigger an effect on one system without it affecting several others. From the smallest living organisms in the soil and water to the largest mammals in the sea, a ripple effect is often felt through the food chain with any type of change.

    The world population doubled from 3.03 billion in 1960 to 6.06 billion in 1999.1 During the same period urban population grew from 1.02 billion to 2.14 billion; some believe the number living in rural areas is affected by large corporations taking over small farms.

    The population growth and movement to cities has led to the development of what many see as a disposable society, creating more garbage than can be safely contained. Plastics, chemicals, toxins and fabric fibers are making their way into local waterways and out to the oceans where they impact the reproduction of wildlife and ultimately the food chain.

    Agrochemical companies supply nitrogen fertilizers, GMO seeds and pesticides — all impacting soil biodiversity and gradually reducing the topsoil. As the nitrogen and chemicals wash off into the waterways wildlife are affected.

    Runoff from concentrated animal feeding operations (CAFOs) poisons croplands. Changes to the way farms are run, how products are manufactured and how life is lived have all had devastating effects on the Earth.

    Small Farms Facing Bankruptcy as Suicide Rates Climb
    The small farmer has been a fixture in America since the country was first settled. For centuries, farms have been passed down from generation to generation and have survived droughts, floods and price variations. But the current crisis is nothing like what's happened in the past.

    Small dairy farmers are amassing large debt to keep their farms going. Time magazine2 reports one family is nearly $300,000 in debt with bill collectors calling on a regular basis. This is happening to many families who have successfully managed their farms for decades. For example, the price of milk has plummeted nearly 40% in the last six years, and as a consequence more farmers are losing their inheritances.

    Time also reports that Chapter 12 bankruptcies on small farms increased by 12% across the Midwest from July 2018 to June 2019; This pales in comparison to the 50% increase seen in the Northwest during the same time period. From 2011 to 2018, 100,000 farms closed their doors. Farm debt is at an all-time high with more than half reporting losses every year since 2013.

    Small corn and soybean farmers are also feeling the pinch, squeezed by the trade war with China and climate change.3 Heavy spring rains and an early fall snow shut down operations for Ben Riensche at his Blue Diamond Farming company. Sales by small farmers have plummeted, which has opened markets in South America to expand their production.

    As reported by a fourth-generation corn and soybean farmer, this is unfortunate as the market in China took years to develop, and the trade war causes instability.4 Case in point: From January to August in 2019, China imported $8 billion U.S. agricultural products, which is far less than $19.5 billion purchased in 2017 before the trade war began.5

    An often-underreported effect of farm loss is the rising number of suicides. The CDC reported that the suicide rate for those in the agricultural field is 1.5 times higher than the national average. CNBC reports farm income in Wisconsin plunged 50% in six years, culminating in a record 915 suicides in 2017.6

    Randy Roecker is a dairy farmer from Wisconsin.7 He has faced depression and had a neighbor who committed suicide after he was forced to sell his 50 dairy cows. Roecker said, “It hits you so hard when you feel like you’re the one who is losing the legacy that your great-grandparents started." He estimates his own farm is losing $30,000 every month.Rural America Disappearing as Agribusiness Buys Small Farms
    The Trump administration has assigned $16 billion in financial assistance to farmers who have suffered the consequences of trade to China. But small farmers are not hopeful this will save their farms, as most of the money is going to big producers who report large losses.8

    The severity of the crisis currently facing farmers suggests independent farming may be a thing of the past. In 2017, small farms contributed 25% of food production, a reduction of nearly 50% from 1991. The dairy industry is even lower, contributing just 10% of production.9

    As a result of technology and globalization, prices began to fall in 2013, and small farmers began selling out to large corporate agribusinesses. Technology made large producers more efficient by increasing scale. While many farms disappeared from 1948 to 2015, the total output from American farms more than doubled.

    This flooded the market with a rising food supply that continued to drive down prices and hurt the remaining small farmers who could not compete. While transitioning to organic farming may help save some local farms, some small farmers are so far in debt the switch is not an option. Some ranchers in Wyoming are trying to help the family farmer by changing the way they farm the land.

    Farmers are experimenting with seed varieties and sustainable methods of farming to counteract the effects of droughts and floods triggered by climate change. To help, they have partnered with advocacy and policy groups across the country such as the Family Farm Alliance. This advocacy group partners with farmers and ranchers on water supply in irrigation issues.

    Other groups are working with farmers to counteract the effect farming has on climate warming and the release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. One crop alternative used is hemp, as it is not susceptible to the wild swings in weather like corn and soybeans are.

    Family Farm Collapse Creates a Fragile Food Chain
    The loss of the small family farm affects more than the farmer. As farmers sell to larger agribusinesses, local businesses dependent on the farmer must also close their doors. Pharmacies, restaurants, farm equipment repair and other small businesses have all closed as small farmers go out of business.

    From 2011 to 2015, nearly 4,400 schools in rural districts had to close their doors as they no longer had the students or the tax dollars to support them. By contrast, suburban areas added nearly 4,000 schools. Farmers who used to have neighbors they knew are now living next to farms run by large corporations.

    It's estimated nearly 70% of Americans will live in 15 states by 2040 with much of the population concentrated in metropolitan areas. Jim Goodman, president of the National Family Farm Coalition, contemplates what the future of rural America may look like.10

    “We have to think about what we really want rural America to look like. Do we want it to be abandoned small towns and farmers who can’t make a living, and a lot of really big farms that are polluting the groundwater?”

    Biodiversity Loss Hastening Extinction
    Loss of family farms has a large impact on local environments as large agribusinesses take over America's heartland and destroy local environments with genetically engineered seed, heavy applications of pesticides and animal waste runoff.

    Other negative effects have included biodiversity losses, widespread degradation of land and water systems and a growing supply of cheap food responsible for driving down prices and small farmers out of business. These changes have contributed to the phenomenal loss of environmental biodiversity in just one arena.

    The Amazon rainforests are burning, destroying plant and animal life across the largest rainforest in the world normally responsible for slowing the pace of global climate change.11 The fires are used to clear the land, and although a ban on setting fires is currently in effect, the level of deforestation has not slowed.

    Science director for the nonprofit Amazon Environmental Research Institute (Ipam) believes the level of loss in 2019 is likely 30% higher than the estimated 7,747 sq km (2,991 sq miles) of rainforest cleared.

    The Cerrado savanna, also in Brazil, is home to 40% of animals and plants not found in other areas of the world. According to the Ipam, nearly 50% of the land has been lost to soybean farming.

    One study12 from 2017 conducted by Stanford scientists paints a bleak picture of biological annihilation. The researchers believe the disappearance of thousands of species is only part of the story of the impact humans have had on the Earth.13

    The loss of animal populations and biodiversity of the Earth matters as it robs humans of crucial ecosystems that have for centuries pollinated plants, controlled pests and purify waters in the wetlands. The scientists believe the loss of these intricate networks will lead to the development of less resilient systems.

    Opportunity Lost at Recent COP25: What Can You Do?
    According to the International Union for Conservation of Nature, over the past 10 years 467 species have been named extinct.14 One team of researchers from Europe estimated it would take 3 to 7 million years for evolution to replace 300 extinct mammal species. The Stanford researchers believe the current mass extinction event is more severe than it is perceived. They write:15

    “Our data indicate that beyond global species extinctions Earth is experiencing a huge episode of population declines and extirpations, which will have negative cascading consequences on ecosystem functioning and services vital to sustaining civilization.

    The massive loss of populations is already damaging the services ecosystems provide to civilization. When considering this frightening assault on the foundations of human civilization, one must never forget that Earth’s capacity to support life, including human life, has been shaped by life itself.

    Thus, we emphasize that the sixth mass extinction is already here and the window for effective action is very short, probably two or three decades at most. All signs point to ever more powerful assaults on biodiversity in the next two decades, painting a dismal picture of the future of life, including human life.”

    After two weeks of talks in Madrid, delegates from almost 200 nations ended the 2019 United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (COP25). The planned 12-day summit was called to define the rules of the 2015 Paris climate agreement.

    The meeting ended in disappointment as many of the most pressing agenda items were deferred until 2020.16 UN chief António Guterres was disappointed in the results, but called for the global community to not give up, saying he is:17
    “more determined than ever to work for 2020 to be the year in which all countries commit to do what science tells us is necessary to reach carbon neutrality in 2050 and a no more than 1.5 degree temperature rise."

    You can have a positive effect on your local ecosystem and contribute to the global community through your purchases. Consider getting your produce, meat and dairy products from local organic, regenerative farmers where the process of producing food reduces the overall impact on the environment and doesn’t contribute to it; and, the food is safer and healthier.

    Although plastic has become an integral part of our lives, its use is at dangerous levels when considering your health and the environment. A stroll through the grocery story reveals the extent of society's dependence on plastic.

    Most plastic is not recycled but instead ends of up in the waterways, negatively affecting the environment. Discover tips on how to reduce your dependence on plastic in my article, "Why Is Food Wrapped in Plastic Inside Plastic?" "

    - Sources and References
    1 WorldoMeters
    2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 Time Magazine, November 27, 2019
    3, 5, 6 CNBC, November 2, 2019
    11 BBC News, October 12, 2019
    12, 15 PNAS, July 25, 2017; doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1704949114
    13 Stanford News Service, July 10, 2017
    14 Vox, December 9, 2019
    16 CBS News, December 16, 2019
    17 UN News, December 15, 2019
    Each breath a gift...

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to onawah For This Post:

    Frank V (7th January 2020), kfm27917 (9th January 2020), Victoria (9th January 2020)

  7. Link to Post #4
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Thanked 21,936 times in 3,488 posts

    Default Re: Our Finite world

    Large agri-business and the economy of scale still omits the fact that wealth builders must get their hands dirty for any of it to work. They just get paid less for doing it.

    A finite world requires a closed loop system, calculating actual costs of every technology and widget to reflect its true value and wealth potential, and remove the ability to defer back-end costs onto society.

    Waste is a major problem in today's' world. Our technologies are extremely wasteful, but also tragically inefficient. The combined effect of waste of all kinds is a direct result of our consumption-based, throw-away mentality - and our economies suffer tremendously because of it.

    If it wasn't for the fiat/usury based Babylonian money magic this open-ended economic model would have collapsed long ago. Even today almost $80,000,000,000 was pumped into the US economy by the Feds, a private enterprise, by the way - very roughly that's over $300 for every man, woman and child in America. How much did you get?

    Compensation for work rendered should be in the form of tangible assets and actual real goods, not pieces of worthless paper. It is harder to steal your daily bread if that is what you are paid with because you can see it shrinking, measure the direct loss in compensation, and demand remedy. Not so with blips on a screen.

    The sixth extinction is of major concern but if we can get our waste under control at least we can mitigate our impact on its trajectory. We could rid ourselves of the blame and maybe even turn it around.

    As things stand right now those with bundles of paper fiat currency and meaningless blips on a screen dictate terms to the rest of us usury-slaves. And those with the stacks not only demand that we clean up after them but as added insult to injury, force us to pay for their lack of business acumen and down-right dirty dealings gone wrong. This cannot stand as it adds even more waste to a teetering system already on the brink of collapse.

    Last I heard, 50 people have as much money as the bottom 50% of the entire world's population. Even if that is an exaggeration, as I truly hope it is, it illustrates the flaw in the system nicely. Such a lop-sided allotment of wealth is not only extremely wasteful, unfair, and unsustainable it is plainly wrong.

    It matters not at all whether fiat, or based on a precious metal or any other commodity, money attracts money because of the unintentional effect money has on wealth - it divorces the two and by slight of hand a worthless piece of paper stands in for the tangible wealth produced by sweat equity. But the trickle of sweat is under-compensated and the bulk of the tangible wealth is stolen from the one who produced it. This cannot go on.

    Resources are not being allocated in an equitable manner and so many of our resources end up in countless useless products with usable lives of only hours to days. The mountains of garbage attests to this fact. Resources should not be available to the highest bidder but for the highest good.

    A finite world requires limits on waste and some thought as to the use of resources. We can do without the next pet rock or newest can-opener but we cannot live healthy lives in a world with a damaged biosphere...
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 8th January 2020 at 10:48.

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    GMB1961 (9th January 2020), kfm27917 (9th January 2020), onawah (8th January 2020), Victoria (9th January 2020)

+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts