+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

  1. Link to Post #1
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    23,456
    Thanks
    88,682
    Thanked 297,022 times in 21,945 posts

    Default The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    This most interesting term was referenced at the conclusion of Chris Martenson's latest update about the Wuhan coronavirus. (See this post.)

    Martenson describes The Fourth Turning as being marked by the point when humanity loses faith in its institutions.

    Neil Howe argues that this is happening right now, and this tipping point can sometimes lead to dark times in human history. See this Chris Martenson interview, published in March 2015:


  2. The Following 57 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    4evrneo (21st February 2020), ahamkara (3rd June 2020), Alan (30th May 2020), AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), Anka (12th February 2020), Antagenet (11th February 2020), aoibhghaire (28th May 2020), AutumnW (28th May 2020), Ayt (31st May 2020), Baby Steps (21st February 2020), Blacklight43 (10th February 2020), Chip (10th February 2020), christian (30th May 2020), Craig (10th February 2020), Denise/Dizi (10th February 2020), Dennis Leahy (12th February 2020), East Sun (31st May 2020), Elainie (30th May 2020), Eligos (1st June 2020), ExomatrixTV (10th February 2020), Franny (21st February 2020), Geophyz (2nd June 2020), George (12th February 2020), Gracy May (29th May 2020), happyuk (10th February 2020), Hym (10th February 2020), InaiŠ (10th February 2020), Ioneo (10th February 2020), Joseph McAree (21st February 2020), justntime2learn (10th February 2020), kfm27917 (29th May 2020), Kryztian (28th May 2020), ljwheat (31st May 2020), Mark/Rahkyt (10th February 2020), Melinda (10th February 2020), Mike (10th February 2020), onevoice (10th February 2020), Operator (11th February 2020), palehorse (29th May 2020), Pam (10th February 2020), pyrangello (10th February 2020), RunningDeer (2nd June 2020), shaberon (10th February 2020), silvanelf (5th June 2020), Soda (10th February 2020), Sophocles (10th February 2020), spade (31st May 2020), Stephanie (10th February 2020), Sunny-side-up (10th February 2020), Tam (12th February 2020), Tintin (21st February 2020), toppy (10th February 2020), twin fig (10th February 2020), Victoria (10th February 2020), WhiteFeather (10th February 2020), Woody (21st February 2020), Yoda (10th February 2020)

  3. Link to Post #2
    United States Avalon Member Latti's Avatar
    Join Date
    30th August 2012
    Age
    77
    Posts
    144
    Thanks
    651
    Thanked 618 times in 120 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Martenson said that a turning takes 20 years. I lost faith in our monetary system over a decade ago and am amazed that the whole system hasn't completely collapsed. So, I suppose weíve got only a few more years.

    My balance sheet looks impressive, but much of it may vanish overnight.

  4. The Following 23 Users Say Thank You to Latti For This Post:

    AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), Antagenet (11th February 2020), Ayt (31st May 2020), Bill Ryan (10th February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Denise/Dizi (10th February 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), happyuk (10th February 2020), Melinda (10th February 2020), Mike (10th February 2020), palehorse (29th May 2020), Pam (10th February 2020), pyrangello (10th February 2020), Reinhard (13th February 2020), Satori (10th February 2020), shaberon (10th February 2020), Soda (10th February 2020), Sophocles (10th February 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020), Tintin (21st February 2020), toppy (10th February 2020), Victoria (10th February 2020), WhiteFeather (10th February 2020)

  5. Link to Post #3
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    1st April 2016
    Posts
    1,990
    Thanks
    3,217
    Thanked 6,719 times in 1,715 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Hmm...never had any faith in the institutions I perceive, have always considered them the straw breaking the camel's back. But I am only one person, meaningless compared to millions. For instance, my long-standing boycott of the meat industry has not affected much.

    A 20 year turning is roughly the same as Thomas Jefferson saying each generation probably needs to throw a revolution. If you do not wipe the slate clean, it will become infected, quickly.

  6. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to shaberon For This Post:

    AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), Anka (12th February 2020), Antagenet (11th February 2020), Bill Ryan (10th February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), justntime2learn (11th February 2020), Melinda (10th February 2020), Mike (10th February 2020), palehorse (29th May 2020), Pam (10th February 2020), Sophocles (10th February 2020), toppy (10th February 2020), WhiteFeather (10th February 2020)

  7. Link to Post #4
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Location
    journeying to the end of the night
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,401
    Thanks
    27,262
    Thanked 35,499 times in 4,292 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Losing too much faith too quick may be just as much the fault of the people as it is the institutions.

    Life can be hell. It's mostly suffering, as the Buddhists say. Considering all the tragedy and suffering and malevolence that exists in the world today, I think it's a miracle when I walk outside in the morning and there isn't total anarchy in the streets. Human beings have only really realized themselves as stewards of the planet since the 1950's, so I think we're actually doing much better than we think sometimes.

    There's solid infrastructure, a beautifully functioning sewage system, flowing water in our sinks and showers, and the wondrous technology of electricity available whenever we need it. Life ain't too bad, despite some of our questionable institutions. Some of those very institutions made the things I listed possible.

    If we're going to question our institutions, we should acknowledge all of it, the good and the bad. I heard a wonderful saying the other day, and it went something like this: if you're going to blame someone for all the bad things they've done, you have to blame them for all the good things they've done too.

    One such institution is religion. Even a year ago I would have dismissed it out of hand, for all sorts of reasons, but having listened to some of the Jordan Peterson lectures, I'm finally realizing how deeply and richly allegorical the biblical stories are, and how our entire western civilization's value system is based on judeo-christian ethics and ideals. I'd forgotten many of those things in favor of pedophile priests and various conspiracies, which is really an intellectual default position for the lazy. Yes, there are pedo priests and very valid conspiracies surrounding the various religions, but it's missing the point entirely. I'm not a religious man, nor have I "found Jesus" but I am ashamed and embarrassed that I've approached it all in a very one dimensional way so lacking in nuance and detail.

    Anyway, I blame much of the nihilism that's setting in on the people as well. It's easy to get bitter and discouraged and to give up. It's much harder and much more rewarding to take personal responsibility for ourselves, despite what we often perceive as negative outward circumstances, and just bloody get on with it

  8. The Following 36 Users Say Thank You to Mike For This Post:

    4evrneo (21st February 2020), AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), Antagenet (11th February 2020), Arcturian108 (13th February 2020), astridmari (10th February 2020), AutumnW (28th May 2020), Ayt (31st May 2020), Baby Steps (21st February 2020), Bill Ryan (10th February 2020), ByTheNorthernSea (21st February 2020), Chip (11th February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Constance (1st June 2020), Delight (11th February 2020), earthdreamer (22nd February 2020), Franny (21st February 2020), gini (11th February 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), happyuk (10th February 2020), justntime2learn (11th February 2020), Keyholder (10th February 2020), kfm27917 (29th May 2020), Melinda (10th February 2020), modini (21st February 2020), Pam (10th February 2020), Philippe (10th February 2020), Reinhard (10th February 2020), section9 (10th February 2020), Sophocles (10th February 2020), spade (10th February 2020), Strat (10th February 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020), Tam (12th February 2020), Tintin (21st February 2020), toppy (10th February 2020), WhiteFeather (10th February 2020)

  9. Link to Post #5
    UK Avalon Member Sunny-side-up's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th April 2013
    Location
    Between here & there
    Age
    60
    Posts
    3,793
    Thanks
    40,755
    Thanked 17,462 times in 3,505 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Quote Losing too much faith too quick may be just as much the fault of the people as it is the institutions.
    If you we had been shown the truth, real history, it would have happened 100 years ago if not more.
    I'm a simple easy going guy that is very upset/sad with the worlds hidden controllers!
    We need LEADERS who bat from the HEART!
    Rise up above them Dark evil doers, not within anger but with LOVE

  10. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Sunny-side-up For This Post:

    AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), Axman (10th February 2020), Bill Ryan (10th February 2020), ByTheNorthernSea (21st February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Franny (21st February 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), justntime2learn (11th February 2020), Melinda (10th February 2020), Pam (10th February 2020), section9 (10th February 2020), WhiteFeather (10th February 2020)

  11. Link to Post #6
    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    1,125
    Thanks
    368
    Thanked 4,476 times in 986 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    I read the 4th Turning when it came out, around 1997 or 1998. 22 years ago. I'm pretty sure Howe was saying that the 4th turning generation was imminent back then. Yet we're still waiting for this hero generation. If it's 20 years per generation and the hero GI generation was born, say 1920, then 1940 is the 2nd, 1960 is the 3rd, and the 4th would be 1980. I think that's why he thought it would start "any time now" (20 years ago).

  12. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), AutumnW (28th May 2020), Bill Ryan (11th February 2020), ByTheNorthernSea (21st February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020)

  13. Link to Post #7
    United States Avalon Member rgray222's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th September 2010
    Posts
    1,171
    Thanks
    3,326
    Thanked 8,569 times in 1,068 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    For decades we have been marching in an orderly (but quiet) fashion towards a global order or a global government. This has understandably given rise to Brexit and Donald Trump. Nationalism is the bane of any attempt to globalize governments. †I truly believe we are on the cusp of determining if a global government is viable or not. If the Brexit vote had been discarded and another vote taken we would have been one step away from anarchy in the UK. If the impeachment effort of Donald Trump had been successful in removing him from office we would have been in a state of anarchy in the USA. The chaos, confusion and hostility would have caused the collapse of institutions, not just government but our educational and religious institutions as well. The vacuum left by this mess would have been quickly filled by global elitist. †Just think of how close the world was too feeling the full brunt of this resounding turmoil, Trump stayed in office by 4 votes and Brexit passed by a whisper's breath.

    This may seem odd to say but I am actually in favour of a one-world government but not for another 50-100 years (possibly longer). We need to reach a level of emotional maturity which would make such a government work for the betterment of mankind. †Man is still caught up in the quest for money and power and that kind of power will absolutely corrupt.† Humankind is just not ready for this type of change.†

    I don't think these efforts, particularly in the USA, are over by any stretch of the imagination. Governments and institutions are quite literally under attack.† Gaining knowledge and understanding of how and when a global government should be implemented is the best immediate defense.†
    Last edited by rgray222; 11th February 2020 at 03:52.

  14. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to rgray222 For This Post:

    AndrejPeĉŽnkin (11th February 2020), Arcturian108 (13th February 2020), Ayt (11th February 2020), Bill Ryan (11th February 2020), ByTheNorthernSea (21st February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), palehorse (29th May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020)

  15. Link to Post #8
    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    1,125
    Thanks
    368
    Thanked 4,476 times in 986 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    I think we should have had a 4th Turning around 2000. Without a reality check every 80 years, people just get more feeble. There are too many people born in the 1990s who are struggling to hold a job or raise a family. I just read they are naming their kids unique names so they'll stand out in social media.* I've noticed at work that the bathroom stalls in restrooms are hardly ever vacant -- you can see the same pair of shoes there for long periods of time. These are young guys who are either hiding from the world or playing games on their phones. I used to think it outrageous that some companies time their employees' bathroom breaks, but now I get it. So many so-called adults who still need their mummies!

    *https://www.studyfinds.org/many-pare...-social-media/

  16. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (21st February 2020), ByTheNorthernSea (21st February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020)

  17. Link to Post #9
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    23,456
    Thanks
    88,682
    Thanked 297,022 times in 21,945 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Chris Masterson discusses this again starting at 9:11 [] in his daily coronavirus update from yesterday:


    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 21st February 2020 at 10:24.

  18. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    4evrneo (21st February 2020), anandacate (21st February 2020), ByTheNorthernSea (21st February 2020), Chester (21st February 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Franny (21st February 2020), palehorse (29th May 2020), Pam (21st February 2020), Sarah Rainsong (21st February 2020), Snoweagle (2nd April 2020), Sophocles (21st February 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020), Yoda (21st February 2020)

  19. Link to Post #10
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    23,456
    Thanks
    88,682
    Thanked 297,022 times in 21,945 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Another Chris Martenson interview with Neil Howe. It was uploaded on 27 May 2020, but I believe it was recorded on 5 May, 3 weeks earlier. First rate, as one has come to expect.




  20. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Alan (29th May 2020), Alekahn2 (29th May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Elainie (29th May 2020), Franny (28th May 2020), Harmony (29th May 2020), kudzy (28th May 2020), palehorse (29th May 2020), pueblo (28th May 2020), Sarah Rainsong (29th May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020), Yoda (28th May 2020)

  21. Link to Post #11
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    4th November 2012
    Posts
    2,754
    Thanks
    5,095
    Thanked 11,547 times in 2,433 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    I didn't watch the whole video just the first part. Howe made the point that the fourth turning may be a return to a less narcissistic society and that govt. institutions working for the public good, like the CDC, would be reinvigorated. People have lost faith in institutions, like corporations and the governments they control.

    As far as globalism goes, it is becoming more and more entrenched and is expanding under Anglo-American neocon rule. That was the intent of those oily forces behind Brexit. Regardless of whether you were for or against it and the reasons why, it has undermined the EU, which was a potential threat to the unipolar globalism of the U.S.

    China is being cut off at the knees, currently. Again, regardless of what you think about them, this was and is the goal, to weaken them to the point that they are no threat to the global hegemony of the U.S. All talk of marching towards globalism and nationalism arising to stamp out that threat is a manipulation of the facts that many have fallen for.
    Becoming Balkanized, being sanctioned, having to do what the U.S. dictates, (a country with over 1000 military bases arrayed around the globe) does not indicate a return to an American solitude.

    Watch how Modhi played the people of India, along the same lines. And you can bet, as he is cozy with the current administration, they will promise a cushy trade deal in return for arranging military bases in India. Neocons have encircled Russia and they plan to do the same with China.

    Hong Kong unrest is part of a greater picture here, again, regardless if you are for or against it.

    Went off topic here. Sorry. But, I sense that those who think that they are fighting the good fight under the neocons and Trump might be in for a surprise. The next leader may not be a neocon and following him, you might see an honest to God young Social Democrat take his place. The local level will be rife with that mentality. When the nationalist dispossessed, all gunned up, realize they were snookered, you'll see a fourth turning, alright.

  22. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to AutumnW For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (28th May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Ernie Nemeth (1st June 2020), Franny (28th May 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), Harmony (29th May 2020), InaiŠ (28th May 2020), kfm27917 (29th May 2020), leavesoftrees (29th May 2020), Sarah Rainsong (29th May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020)

  23. Link to Post #12
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    4th November 2012
    Posts
    2,754
    Thanks
    5,095
    Thanked 11,547 times in 2,433 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Losing too much faith too quick may be just as much the fault of the people as it is the institutions.

    Life can be hell. It's mostly suffering, as the Buddhists say. Considering all the tragedy and suffering and malevolence that exists in the world today, I think it's a miracle when I walk outside in the morning and there isn't total anarchy in the streets. Human beings have only really realized themselves as stewards of the planet since the 1950's, so I think we're actually doing much better than we think sometimes.

    There's solid infrastructure, a beautifully functioning sewage system, flowing water in our sinks and showers, and the wondrous technology of electricity available whenever we need it. Life ain't too bad, despite some of our questionable institutions. Some of those very institutions made the things I listed possible.

    If we're going to question our institutions, we should acknowledge all of it, the good and the bad. I heard a wonderful saying the other day, and it went something like this: if you're going to blame someone for all the bad things they've done, you have to blame them for all the good things they've done too.

    One such institution is religion. Even a year ago I would have dismissed it out of hand, for all sorts of reasons, but having listened to some of the Jordan Peterson lectures, I'm finally realizing how deeply and richly allegorical the biblical stories are, and how our entire western civilization's value system is based on judeo-christian ethics and ideals. I'd forgotten many of those things in favor of pedophile priests and various conspiracies, which is really an intellectual default position for the lazy. Yes, there are pedo priests and very valid conspiracies surrounding the various religions, but it's missing the point entirely. I'm not a religious man, nor have I "found Jesus" but I am ashamed and embarrassed that I've approached it all in a very one dimensional way so lacking in nuance and detail.

    Anyway, I blame much of the nihilism that's setting in on the people as well. It's easy to get bitter and discouraged and to give up. It's much harder and much more rewarding to take personal responsibility for ourselves, despite what we often perceive as negative outward circumstances, and just bloody get on with it
    All of those positives you mention are products of local governments that function more like Social Democracies, if they have sufficient tax bases. Many parts of the world, including the U.S. don't have decently funded tax base, at the local level, so they crumble, like the city of Detroit.

    And getting on with it is pretty difficult when your neighbourhood, where you have life long social capital, if you are working class, is abandoned by the manufacturing base.

    I imagine if you are in Florida, you are surrounded by retirees who are on a combination of fixed and indexed pensions. The strong areas would be infrastructure, as you described.

    The weak areas, and I am guessing, would be for profit corporate institutions that are responsible for the well being of the most vulnerable and unseen members of society. Like the prison system. How is Florida's prison system? What is the incarceration rate? How is the plea bargaining system functioning? For profit extended care facilities? How are their 'clients' doing?

    You are immersed in Jordan Peterson, who I greatly admire....but remember, he is a Canadian liberal, a professor who lectured a middle to upper class crowd of kids of a certain ilk that needed a solid dressing down by someone who understood them. His message isn't political. He is addressing kids who don't understand politics at all, and use it to cover personal deficits. Good on him.

    He is out of his own depth when it comes to real politic as it isn't within his domain.

    What he says about the bible is fantastic and we all know that Jesus was all about sharing, caring, and loving your neighbour.

    In our current age, this should be extended to the global realm, as well as to those in our own communites, -- 'the invisibles'. The servant class, the elderly, the prisoner in solitary confinement going slowly mad, those whose suffering is meaningless, purposeless, that increases pathology in the world.

    You should read Chris Hedges. He was a minister at one time. He can express what I am writing here, far better than I can!

  24. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to AutumnW For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (28th May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Ernie Nemeth (1st June 2020), Harmony (29th May 2020), InaiŠ (28th May 2020), kfm27917 (29th May 2020), Mike (28th May 2020), Sarah Rainsong (29th May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Sunny-side-up (31st May 2020)

  25. Link to Post #13
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Location
    journeying to the end of the night
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,401
    Thanks
    27,262
    Thanked 35,499 times in 4,292 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Losing too much faith too quick may be just as much the fault of the people as it is the institutions.

    Life can be hell. It's mostly suffering, as the Buddhists say. Considering all the tragedy and suffering and malevolence that exists in the world today, I think it's a miracle when I walk outside in the morning and there isn't total anarchy in the streets. Human beings have only really realized themselves as stewards of the planet since the 1950's, so I think we're actually doing much better than we think sometimes.

    There's solid infrastructure, a beautifully functioning sewage system, flowing water in our sinks and showers, and the wondrous technology of electricity available whenever we need it. Life ain't too bad, despite some of our questionable institutions. Some of those very institutions made the things I listed possible.

    If we're going to question our institutions, we should acknowledge all of it, the good and the bad. I heard a wonderful saying the other day, and it went something like this: if you're going to blame someone for all the bad things they've done, you have to blame them for all the good things they've done too.

    One such institution is religion. Even a year ago I would have dismissed it out of hand, for all sorts of reasons, but having listened to some of the Jordan Peterson lectures, I'm finally realizing how deeply and richly allegorical the biblical stories are, and how our entire western civilization's value system is based on judeo-christian ethics and ideals. I'd forgotten many of those things in favor of pedophile priests and various conspiracies, which is really an intellectual default position for the lazy. Yes, there are pedo priests and very valid conspiracies surrounding the various religions, but it's missing the point entirely. I'm not a religious man, nor have I "found Jesus" but I am ashamed and embarrassed that I've approached it all in a very one dimensional way so lacking in nuance and detail.

    Anyway, I blame much of the nihilism that's setting in on the people as well. It's easy to get bitter and discouraged and to give up. It's much harder and much more rewarding to take personal responsibility for ourselves, despite what we often perceive as negative outward circumstances, and just bloody get on with it
    All of those positives you mention are products of local governments that function more like Social Democracies, if they have sufficient tax bases. Many parts of the world, including the U.S. don't have decently funded tax base, at the local level, so they crumble, like the city of Detroit.

    And getting on with it is pretty difficult when your neighbourhood, where you have life long social capital, if you are working class, is abandoned by the manufacturing base.

    I imagine if you are in Florida, you are surrounded by retirees who are on a combination of fixed and indexed pensions. The strong areas would be infrastructure, as you described.

    The weak areas, and I am guessing, would be for profit corporate institutions that are responsible for the well being of the most vulnerable and unseen members of society. Like the prison system. How is Florida's prison system? What is the incarceration rate? How is the plea bargaining system functioning? For profit extended care facilities? How are their 'clients' doing?

    You are immersed in Jordan Peterson, who I greatly admire....but remember, he is a Canadian liberal, a professor who lectured a middle to upper class crowd of kids of a certain ilk that needed a solid dressing down by someone who understood them. His message isn't political. He is addressing kids who don't understand politics at all, and use it to cover personal deficits. Good on him.

    He is out of his own depth when it comes to real politic as it isn't within his domain.

    What he says about the bible is fantastic and we all know that Jesus was all about sharing, caring, and loving your neighbour.

    In our current age, this should be extended to the global realm, as well as to those in our own communites, -- 'the invisibles'. The servant class, the elderly, the prisoner in solitary confinement going slowly mad, those whose suffering is meaningless, purposeless, that increases pathology in the world.

    You should read Chris Hedges. He was a minister at one time. He can express what I am writing here, far better than I can!

    hey Jess, I think Peterson is a credible scientist across several dimensions and has a pretty solid grasp of real politik. "Clean your room", "make a schedule" etc. Much of his message is rooted in practicality actually.

    I'm surprised there is solid infrastructure anywhere. That's the spirit of what I was trying to say. It's a miracle. We're surrounded by miracles everywhere; they're ubiquitous, and over time we've taken them for granted. We now feel entitled to them. And having grown entitled, it's easy to sit back and take apart the institutions that have assisted in providing them. Our institutions, at their worst, are prone to corruption and it's prudent to be on guard against that, but imo not at the expense of the extreme gratitude we should all feel for all the wonderful things they've provided us with. Valid institutions are built on competence, not corruption, and it's easy in our haste to confuse the two and grow nihilistic and ungrateful. I try to stay on guard against that, even if I overcompensate sometimes.

    Consider university for a moment. Humanity has worked tirelessly to provide us all with a 4 year period where we can do nearly anything we like. Four years of freedom and study and partying and whatever floats your boat. If you do it right it'll be the best time of your life. You'll likely never get that opportunity again, no matter how long you live. That block of time is a bloody miracle! But all we hear nowadays is endless moaning about loans and so on...and Yale students complaining about being "oppressed". It's pitiful

    I had a Brit friend who was the most anti-institution (and anti-humanity) person I'd ever met. Death to the humans was his battle cry, and I was never quite sure how literally he meant it. He had the philosophy of a brooding teenager, complete with all the bitterness and resentment of someone who hadn't taken any personal responsibility for himself and saw life and everyone in it as meaningless and expendable. But here's the thing: he had been on government benefits for almost 20 years when I met him, and the irony of his thinking was completely lost on him (and he's a smart guy too).

    This represents an extreme, I know. But I see more and more people like this these days. It's spreading, like a sickness.

    I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. If we say all institutions are corrupt, then we can conveniently blame them and avoid taking personal responsibility for ourselves. This is the disturbing trend i see happening these days, particularly on college campuses. We should be helping to mold young people who want to go out and work towards ending all that needless suffering you spoke of, but instead we're creating authoritarian brats.

    Chris Hedges, thanks. Will have a look.

    p.s. a confession: I never watched the video in the OP and may be wildly off-topic. Apologies if I am
    Last edited by Mike; 28th May 2020 at 23:37.

  26. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Mike For This Post:

    AutumnW (29th May 2020), Ayt (31st May 2020), Bill Ryan (30th May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), ClearWater (28th May 2020), Constance (1st June 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), kfm27917 (29th May 2020), Sarah Rainsong (29th May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020)

  27. Link to Post #14
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    1st April 2016
    Posts
    1,990
    Thanks
    3,217
    Thanked 6,719 times in 1,715 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. If we say all institutions are corrupt, then we can conveniently blame them and avoid taking personal responsibility for ourselves. This is the disturbing trend i see happening these days, particularly on college campuses.
    Hmm. There is something to that, but I would twist it a little differently.

    Most of the major institutions are corrupt and undesirable, and, most of the common people are corrupt and undesirable.

    It is simply the wrong attitude of any provider to say "you got to eat today, be my slave". It is true that I, personally, have made major use of oil, so maybe I am culpable/to blame, for being coerced to participate in a system I don't agree with. I tend not to worry about that. In the actual "scruples" types of issues--responsibilities where you have a choice, or might have to go out of your way or something like that--I am certain there is a night and day difference between myself, and way more than half of everyone I've ever seen. When it is obvious that half or more of everybody is just a wolfpack, well, "what would they do" given a high office or any influential position, I shudder to think.

    The number of times I have cheated or hurt anyone is...I haven't.

    The number of lives I have shattered in relation to such things is countless.

    The number of institutions I have challenged are none. Mentally, yes, but not actually. All I can still say about the meat industry now is about the same as thirty years ago, with the new thing of whether anyone works there.

    However, in terms of infrastructure, we are going to need something. We have had hog lagoons bust, and electric company reservoirs, and something like 1/3 of the almost 1,500 dams are showing signs of failure. Also most of the plumbing is iron pipes over fifty years old and that is going to start to rot. I personally like warm showers and most of them do use coal-fired electricity to rust out the tube. I would still like to have them. But I think once we have heated indoor plumbing, we are already pretty much at the apex of nature, and a lot of the additional things going into our houses are corrupt and undesirable.

  28. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to shaberon For This Post:

    AutumnW (29th May 2020), Bill Ryan (30th May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), happyuk (30th May 2020), Harmony (30th May 2020), kfm27917 (29th May 2020), Mike (30th May 2020), Sarah Rainsong (29th May 2020)

  29. Link to Post #15
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    23,456
    Thanks
    88,682
    Thanked 297,022 times in 21,945 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    With reference to this thread: (and much else in the world)
    I really am starting to wonder if the system is coming down. It feels that there may be something a little different happening right now. Of course, the US riots are only a symptom (though a very serious one), but it's possible they may take quite a lot of stopping.

    If so, this may or may not be deliberately engineered or encouraged. Cui Bono? is always there. But whatever we may be watching play out, it feels important. As Neil Howe argues, it's exactly the 'perfect storm' for a major, domino-chain tipping point.

  30. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Alan (30th May 2020), Alecs (31st May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Elainie (30th May 2020), Ernie Nemeth (1st June 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), Harmony (30th May 2020), Kryztian (2nd June 2020), kudzy (30th May 2020), Soda (31st May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020), Yoda (30th May 2020)

  31. Link to Post #16
    Indonesia Avalon Member
    Join Date
    4th June 2018
    Age
    42
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    563
    Thanked 1,138 times in 208 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Yesterday, an uncle of mine just woke up to the fact that the medical industrial complex has just failed him. He used to have faith in the medical industry, but after the HCQ Garbage Science debacle from the reputable Lancet. That blew a giant hole in his faith.

  32. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to spade For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (31st May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Ernie Nemeth (1st June 2020), Happyjak (1st June 2020), Kryztian (2nd June 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020)

  33. Link to Post #17
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    4th November 2012
    Posts
    2,754
    Thanks
    5,095
    Thanked 11,547 times in 2,433 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    People need order, structure, security and meaning in their lives. We are drifting without purpose, while the world mechanizes and enriches a few while shutting out everyone else.

    Many will return with extended families to the land. There is going to be a huge struggle to implement change while fighting a pandemic. The uncertainty about the nature of the pandemic and ensuing paranoia will be another part of that struggle.

    We need progressive and humane democratic socialism, once and for all, in the U.S. They killed John F. Kennedy and his brother for their attempts to get the ball rolling on that and the elite have obstructed it ever since with propaganda that well suited the libertarian zeitgeist of the boomer generation.

    So, be part of the change, or get run over by it. The riots are part of the spirit of the times, a demand for civility and respect.

  34. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to AutumnW For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (31st May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), Ernie Nemeth (1st June 2020), InaiŠ (31st May 2020), Kryztian (2nd June 2020), spade (1st June 2020)

  35. Link to Post #18
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Location
    journeying to the end of the night
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,401
    Thanks
    27,262
    Thanked 35,499 times in 4,292 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    People need order, structure, security and meaning in their lives. We are drifting without purpose, while the world mechanizes and enriches a few while shutting out everyone else.

    Many will return with extended families to the land. There is going to be a huge struggle to implement change while fighting a pandemic. The uncertainty about the nature of the pandemic and ensuing paranoia will be another part of that struggle.

    We need progressive and humane democratic socialism, once and for all, in the U.S. They killed John F. Kennedy and his brother for their attempts to get the ball rolling on that and the elite have obstructed it ever since with propaganda that well suited the libertarian zeitgeist of the boomer generation.

    So, be part of the change, or get run over by it. The riots are part of the spirit of the times, a demand for civility and respect.

    Can you pls explain what democratic socialism is exactly? I've never really known what that means. Thx

  36. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Mike For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (31st May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), ClearWater (31st May 2020), Hym (31st May 2020), Kryztian (2nd June 2020)

  37. Link to Post #19
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    4th November 2012
    Posts
    2,754
    Thanks
    5,095
    Thanked 11,547 times in 2,433 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Democratic socialism means different things to different people. I will give you my own examples. Other living in socialist countries might not agree.

    Currently, in the U.S. large corporations dictate to government. They often write legislation that congress and senate sign off on. They are the literal authors.

    When corporations dictate, they capture regulatory agencies, like the FAA, and Boeing gets sloppy -- for example. People die. This can also be due to simple government underfunding, but is usually a combination of both. They work well together.

    The EPA, is captured by the oil industry. The CDC is underfunded and the FDA is captured by pharmaceutical companies.

    Libertarians fail to focus on this as they think government, by its very nature, is bad. They don't realize that, at least currently, public governmental agencies, free of conflict of interest and properly funded, work very well. It's corruption from outside corporate interests that undermine them and make them much less efficient and downright dangerous.

    I suppose government and private industry will always have to dance together, but they shouldn't settle down and get married and share the same bed.

    Democratic socialists dance with private industry too, but the govt will step on the corporations toes, and is the leading partner. They don't obstruct business necessarily, but make them play by the rules.

    Taxes for the upper middle classes and the wealthy are higher in Socialist states, but healthcare is paid for by the government. Our education system is different. Teachers are very well paid. We have fewer super rich per capita and fewer super poor. Yet we still have way too many homeless and are plagued with political correctness that arises out of a strong egalitarian ideology that can be counter productive at times.

    Our anti hate speech laws, for example, though usually positive, likely intimidated the press into silence while Vancouver was flooded with rich Asians, some of whom were drug dealing fentanyl pushers. They are largely responsible for homelessness in Vancouver as they were laundering money through real estate and driving up the prices.

    This is likely too, why the people of Hong Kong hate the mainland Chinese so much. Same thing happened there only worse.

    We vote, just like you. The system is not rigged. We are not Communists. We have fewer super wealthy but fewer poorer and a strong and fair rule of law, without the death penalty and much less harsh sentences for nearly all felonies than the U.S. Nobody in Canada is thrown in jail by the CRA, our version of the IRS. It may have happened but not to anyone I know or have ever heard of.

    Nevertheless, democratic socialism isn't without problems. It isn't Utopia. We have problems with racism, our health care system can be problematic too, but no Canadian ever wants to go to a private industry system. Our extended care facilities for the elderly in some provinces HAVE been taken over by private industry and are some of the worst in the developed world. This will change. If it doesn't WE will riot!!

    I hope this is an okay explanation? Maybe others can add to it. Take care, Mike.

  38. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to AutumnW For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (31st May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), ClearWater (31st May 2020), Harmony (31st May 2020), Hym (31st May 2020), InaiŠ (31st May 2020), Kryztian (2nd June 2020), Mike (31st May 2020), Stephanie (31st May 2020)

  39. Link to Post #20
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th January 2011
    Location
    journeying to the end of the night
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,401
    Thanks
    27,262
    Thanked 35,499 times in 4,292 posts

    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Yes, that was helpful. Thanks!

    Socialism is one of these things that my brain attempts to chase down but is never able to find and grab and stare at long enough to make any sense out of. I can only see bits and pieces of it at a time, and never the full picture. It's elusive for me somehow. The cognitive dissonance i get thinking about it is off the charts.

    For example, when I read the definition of socialism, I understand the words I'm reading but can't get them to mean anything coherent. I just looked it up again. This is what I got:

    - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. (sounds like resentful utopians on acid arrived at that idea. it frightens me. this occasionally works for small businesses and it makes for wonderful feel-good stories, but for larger entities is pretty impractical, isn't it?)

    policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism (this isn't very helpful)

    (in Marxist theory) a transitional state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism (no thanks!)

    So what does all of that mean exactly? Practically?

    I do like the idea of some things being socialized, as I understand the word. Medicine comes to mind immediately. The corruption between big pharma and the FDA for example, is absolutely evil. It sickens me to the core.

    And I don't think big business should be involved in US elections. At all. No donations. I strongly believe every candidate should be operating from ground zero.

    Education is another. A free college education seems both humane and reasonable. The loans hanging over graduate's heads are like metaphorical nooses, tightening up with each advancing year.

    A clever capitalist would likely tell me that I'd be paying for healthcare and education anyway, via higher taxation. And this is where my knowledge of the situation expires. I'm left in sort of a philosophical no man's land because I can't effectively rebuke or debate the point in any credible way. I just don't know the numbers and how all that works. Plus, I barely know my times tables.

    Up until a couple years ago maybe, I didn't think socialism allowed for any private enterprise. (Even last night, for example, I was googling can you get rich in socialist societies?) And now that I know it does allow for private enterprise, obviously, my next question would be: just how involved in private enterprise is the government in democratic socialism? Exactly. I do like the idea of democratic socialism in the abstract, but I'd need to know exactly how much involvement they'd have on private business. And which businesses? All of them? And then I'd need an unbiased and highly qualified economist to explain to me all the ramifications of that.

    Ideally, what I'd like to see (and maybe this is what you're describing) is a hybrid system of open markets and capitalism. Yeah, it's been explained to me many times why this is a poor idea, how it will fail, and so on. But I still like it. I'd like to see a system where people can still make obscene amounts of money - but only up to a point - and anything that exceeds an imposed ceiling would be recycled to the bottom. I'm sure someone much smarter than me will arrive and pick that apart, and fair enough.

    Of course, the social and the economic always blend, and I'm not totally convinced democracy and socialism are compatible bedfellows. As you know, what I fear most is the ideological underpinnings of socialist thinking, like egalitarianism, equity, and so forth. I don't think anyone can truly know what socialism is until they live it; and even then, it depends on what version of it they're living in. And I think that's at the root of my dissonance...the apparent spectrum-like nature of socialism - throughout history it's application ranges from doses here n there to a full fledged ideology. Everyone has a different idea of it's meaning, so I can't quite put my thumb on it. Plus, being American, I've been deluged with all the horror stories of China and the Soviet Union of course, so I have to sort of fight thru all that to arrive at any kind of objectivity.

    I take your testimony very seriously. You know I respect your mind, and you've given me some things to think about..things I can hold in my hand and stare at and make sense out of. Thanks for taking the time
    Last edited by Mike; 31st May 2020 at 18:47.

  40. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Mike For This Post:

    AutumnW (31st May 2020), Bill Ryan (31st May 2020), christian (31st May 2020), ClearWater (1st June 2020), Kryztian (2nd June 2020), Mypos (2nd June 2020)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts