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Thread: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History



    The thread title is the title of the video that I found scrolling yahoo news. I've decided to leave it as is. Although, it could just as easily read 'Argentine Man Attempting to Play On Woman's Professional Team' and it would actually be much more accurate.

    I'm not trying to be polarizing or unfeeling. This thread isn't really intended to discuss our opinions on alleged differences between sex and gender, or the notion of "identifying" as this or that. This thread is about cold hard biology.

    One can make the argument that gender is fluid. One can make that argument because if you are accepting of the transgender doctrine that's laid out, gender and sex are not the same, and gender identifications are subjective. I think that's all highly questionable, but fair enough.

    Biology, on the other hand, is not fluid. Anyone residing on this earth that is currently sane knows this to be a fact.

    I was moved by this short video. I do have a heart. The trans woman in question seems like a lovely person. Her journey was no doubt an emotionally treacherous one, and it was really heartwarming to see the loving and supporting relationship she has with her mother and particularly her teammates and coaches. It brought a smile to my face.

    But this is where compassion can blind us, in my view. If she is ultimately allowed to remain on the team, it actually sets a very dangerous precedent. Compassion is admirable, but truth really needs to be our highest value

    And the truth is that this trans woman is really a biological man. No one can deny that. And inserting men into women's sports has all kinds of not so good ramifications. Men have all kinds of physical advantages, even ones who are dressing and identifying as females. This is self evident. I'd encourage any women who might disagree to assemble an all female football team and go challenge the Green Bay Packers. Maybe 2 of you would make it out alive. I'm not going out of my way to sound violent...that's just a fact.

    The compassion we feel for the trans woman here must also be extended to the women she is competing against. It hardly seems fair for them. Perhaps this particular trans woman won't have clear physical advantages that set her apart, but ones that follow her surely will eventually. What then? What if trans women start dominating women's sports? We're really playing with fire here, I think

    Last edited by Mike; 15th February 2020 at 03:36.

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    UK Moderator/Librarian/Administrator Tintin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    It's interesting that you posted this, today.

    Quite a few hours ago this whole transgender issue flashed across my mind, and I got to weighing it up.

    My take on incarnation, and reincarnation, which just about every one of us is experiencing, for real, is something along these lines: the machine of the physical (your human form) is being readied for your arrival; the already arranged deal is that you inhabit that physical form at just the right time with an already agreed gender assignment.

    You choose that from the very word go; it's also kind of already agreed, too.

    My view may not be terribly popular, but, transgenderism is a lifestyle choice. We have the technological skill to surgically change someone, but, that was not what you agreed to partake in at the point of incarnation. I don't, with an honest heart, believe or subscribe to the idea that male or female beings incarnate so extraordinarily haphazardly as to need reassignment.

    Mistakes may happen, and do (stillbirths for example - the soul landing timing within the body/machine isn't spot on sometimes) , but, getting the gender wrong from the get go? No. I'm not buying that for a moment.

    It's too convenient, and lazy, and dishonest often, to protest gender when you're living in a time when being able to 'switch' is possible.

    Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen - anything that may later contradict that is likely a socially engineered contrivance.
    ďIf a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.Ē - Thoreau

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    I have a trans woman friend who would agree with you, as I do. Still, I feel I could beat Chelsea Manning Indian arm wrestling!

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    The Transgender World Cup may one day be a highlight in the Soccer Calendar .....

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    I worked with an extraordinarily talented professor in medical education who had transgendered (is that even a word?) and another who became 'Kate' after being 'Ken'.

    The professor was a huge fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer; even wrote a paper citing said. I admire your spirit Autumn, but, could you manage, or arm wrestle, a vampire slayer?
    Last edited by Tintin; 15th February 2020 at 01:46.
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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    When this is allowed, it discourages female participation in athletics and, worse, it can result in women and girls being denied crucial educational and financial opportunities. Transgenders take coveted sports scholarships and other financial aid that has long been available to female born athletes.

    Quote According to the complaint filed by Alliance Defending Freedom, two males ďhave taken 15 womenís state championship titles (titles held in 2016 by ten different Connecticut girls) and have taken more than 40 opportunities to participate in higher level competitions from female track athletes in the 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons alone.Ē Regardless of oneís opinions on how best to treat gender dysphoria or accommodate those who identify as transgender, this policy is evidently unfair to young women.
    It is worth noting that virtually all school have a policy that does not require men to take testosterone-suppressing hormones at all in order to compete against women; mere self-identification is the only criterion.

    There are two key issues which need to be looked at, fairness and safety.

    Taking fairness into account men competing as self-identified women have a huge advantage in almost every sport. In the case of swimming and track and field events they are often won and lost by hundredths if not thousandths of a second.

    Weight lifting, boxing and tennis favour the biologically born man by a huge margin.

    The safety issue is self evident when you take boxing and wrestling into consideration.

    People that are against transgenders competing in female sports are in no way motivated by animus toward individuals who identify as the opposite sex. As much as transgender activists insist otherwise, sex is a biological reality that carries with it a number of concrete practical effects.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by Tintin (here)
    It's interesting that you posted this, today.

    Quite a few hours ago this whole transgender issue flashed across my mind, and I got to weighing it up.

    My take on incarnation, and reincarnation, which just about every one of us is experiencing, for real, is something along these lines: the machine of the physical (your human form) is being readied for your arrival; the already arranged deal is that you inhabit that physical form at just the right time with an already agreed gender assignment.

    You choose that from the very word go; it's also kind of already agreed, too.

    My view may not be terribly popular, but, transgenderism is a lifestyle choice. We have the technological skill to surgically change someone, but, that was not what you agreed to partake in at the point of incarnation. I don't, with an honest heart, believe or subscribe to the idea that male or female beings incarnate so extraordinarily haphazardly as to need reassignment.

    Mistakes may happen, and do (stillbirths for example - the soul landing timing within the body/machine isn't spot on sometimes) , but, getting the gender wrong from the get go? No. I'm not buying that for a moment.

    It's too convenient, and lazy, and dishonest often, to protest gender when you're living in a time when being able to 'switch' is possible.

    Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen - anything that may later contradict that is likely a socially engineered contrivance.



    all very well said Ant. thanks i mostly agree with everything you've written.

    it's very clear that there are people who very genuinely feel in their heart and soul that they are the opposite "gender"...but i don't think that anyone really knows what that means yet exactly. and until we do, i don't think we should be manipulating our language and institutions. the results might just be disastrous, even more so for the transgender community ironically.

    there is so much incoherence in the current arguments many of the radical activists are making, and so many illogical leaps required by a sane mind to even begin to comprehend it all..but to even point it out these days in a spirit of intellectual collegiality is regarded as "hate speech" by some. I'm back in school now, and i've noticed that many of these college aged kids are quite insane. And I mean that literally. they are so animus possessed by their distorted ideologies that getting thru in any way shape or form is nearly impossible.

    the situation with the soccer playing trans woman in the video is compassion gone horribly awry. when compassion becomes dogmatic, it ceases to be compassion and turns into something else entirely. it's like a sickness. it's insanity. and in some circles you're likely to be labelled insane for pointing out the insanity. and in some places it's even become illegal
    Last edited by Mike; 15th February 2020 at 03:02.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    I have a trans woman friend who would agree with you, as I do. Still, I feel I could beat Chelsea Manning Indian arm wrestling!

    here's a brain twister: if there was a crowd of feminist activists watching the battle, who would they be rooting for?

    being a little silly here, but still sort of serious. the lgbqt.....etc community is sort of beginning to crumble under the weight of it's own rainbow metaphor. new oppressed groups are being invented daily...and the "community" is sometimes at odds with itself. women (biological women) are now beginning to resent the idea that being a woman is no more than a whim, and there's some tension there between them and the trans women. that's just one example. it seems like it's going to begin to eat itself moving forward as the so called oppressed groups grow larger and larger in numbers and compete for the victimhood trophy
    Last edited by Mike; 15th February 2020 at 02:57.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    I was forever vaccinated from twisted ideology when a lesbian feminist activist friend, many years ago, claimed there was nothing really wrong with my health. I was just having a psychosomatic reaction to being oppressed by men in general and my husband, in particular. This came right out of thin air, with no corraborating evidence, as in I never complained about my husband.

    Oh, and the attitude that her orientation was somehow superior because she "was no longer trying to please men." It was completely insane. Someone telling you that you are oppressed when you are totally not. Damn, if anything I scared my poor husband, I was such a hot head.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    I agree that men and women physically are built differently, and while a woman can bulk up and strengthen their bodies, they're built completely different. A man having more muscle mass on average than women, as women are built more for reproduction. Even on a hormone replacement therapy, I don't think this would limit their muscle structure. While it may reduce some bulk? The implications would be that this particular player would technically have an unfair advantage ..

    Feelings can't come into play when we are talking about physical facts.

    I have no problems with identities, that is great, do what you will, but I cannot imagine pairing up against a male my own size in any strength contest, and coming out on top given we both train equally, it just doesn't work that way.

    Perhaps I am wrong? But I would think that this could be seen as a true unfair match biologically.

    I remember when there was lot of "To Do" about a runner who had prosthetic legs, and they deemed him not to have a handicap, but an unfair advantage, at least so far as the races were concerned... Everyone was outraged that they wanted to disqualify him. The truth being, yes he was handicapped, and while that was tragic? In correcting that handicap? The prosthetic legs did in fact, give him an advantage.

    While transgender isn't a "Handicap" I believe the principle is the same?
    Last edited by Denise/Dizi; 15th February 2020 at 03:55.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by Tintin (here)
    but, transgenderism is a lifestyle choice.
    Yes, there are inclinations, and their are conscious choices. My father had the inclination of writing with his left hand, but his teachers insisted he wrote with his right hand. A few of his friends chose to write again with their left hand once they got to a class where their hand choice was not supervised. My father spent most of his life at a desk with a pencil in his right hand, writing mostly letter and numbers, but occasionally doing some mechanical drawing. Just thinking his life might have been a little bit easier if he had been allowed to learn handwriting using the hand he had been inclined to use.

    I too struggled with my own inclinations - my sexual attractions to members of my own sex. For a time, I decided the social repercussions where not worth it, that I would act according to societal expectations. I felt increasingly depressed and often walked on a bridge over a deep gorge, and often thought of jumping in and ending my life. I finally figured out that it was not me who was ill, but the society I was living in. That was a lifestyle choice, and one that may have saved my life. Fortunately, I got to watch this sick society get better and accept me and others as a valued member.

    And deciding what clothes to wear, deciding to take hormones, and deciding to accept radical body changing surgery are also a lifestyle choice. The people who elect to do this are almost always well aware of the difficulties involved, but it seems important enough to them to do this anyway. Again, this is a segment of the population that struggles with depression and suicide.

    Quote that was not what you agreed to partake in at the point of incarnation.
    This is a quasi religious view you are imposing upon other people's choices. I've have The Book of Leviticus quoted to me by people wishing to condemn my own lifestyle choices. (People who eat lobster, wear mixed fabric garments and get tattoos, also in violation of the rules of this ancient book.)

    But, even if I takes this view - is is correct? None of us has a copy of our contract here on planet Earth, so do we really know that it requires to stay with the gender we are born into? From my study of Delores Cannon, I understand that in every incarnation we are expected to face adversity and to learn from it. Perhaps, when going over one's contract, someone was told "Okay, you are going to incarnate on Earth, and you are going to be put in a male body, but you are going to feel you are female. This can be tough going, but it's going to be in the early 21st century so you can find some places where you will be socially accepted, and you will have surgery options which will make you feel more comfortable with who you are." How do you know that's not what is in the agreement?

    Quote My view may not be terribly popular
    If "popular" is thought of in terms of "prevalent", your view is popular both here on Avalon and in the real world. But is that really relevant to what is right? Should we encourage people to exercise their free choice if it makes their life better? Should we tell people they are not valued members of society because of their "lifestyle choices"? What does it really cost us if we feel comfortable momentarily about someone's dress, mannerisms, or their altered anatomy, and how does that compare to their lifetime of feeling self worth?

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    From this video, I get the impression that Mara Gomťz's teammates feel comfortable playing soccer with her, that she is just "another one of the girls." I am guess that she takes hormones, and that this doesn't give her much of a "testosterone" advantage. This isn't professional sports and there are no world's records to be set here, and as long as everyone is having a good time, what's the problem?

    Where it can be a problem is professional sports, where there is money to be earned and where having "xy" chromosones can help a woman who was born a man gain an unfair advantage. In 1972, East Germany sent so many women athletes to the Olympics who had transformed their bodies with steroids and testosterone, and won almost as many medals as the U.S.A. Many of them went on to live confused, unhappy and shorter lives due to this process. The world has restricted steroids and hormones from sports play, and I don't think it would be problematic to say your participation in male and female segregated sporting events should be defined by your chromosones, not by how surgery has transformed you.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    DRUG TESTING; East German Steroids' Toll: 'They Killed Heidi'

    By Jere Longman

    Jan. 26, 2004

    https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/s...led-heidi.html

    Andreas Krieger opened a shopping bag in his living room and spilled out his past: track and field uniforms, a scrapbook and athlete credentials from the former East Germany.

    The photos on the credentials looked familiar, but the face was fuller and softer, the hair covering the ears and draping down the neck. This was Heidi Krieger, the 1986 European women's shot-put champion, perhaps the most extreme example of the effects of an insidious, state-sponsored system of doping in East Germany.

    The taking of pills and injections of anabolic steroids created virile features and heightened confusion about an already uncertain sexual identity, Krieger said, influencing a decision to have a sex-change operation in 1997 and to become known legally as Andreas.

    ''They killed Heidi,'' Krieger said.

    More than 14 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and more than three years after criminal trials resulted in convictions of East Germany's top sports official and sports doctor, Krieger and a number of other athletes are still trying to resolve legal, medical and psychological issues related to the secretive doping program that was known by the Orwellian euphemism of ''supporting means.'' Many of the athletes were minors at the time and say they were given performance-enhancing drugs without their knowledge.

    Karen KŲnig, a retired swimmer, filed a civil lawsuit against the German Olympic Committee, contending that it inherited more than $2.5 million in assets from East Germany upon reunification in 1990 and thus bears responsibility to assist the former East German athletes.

    She is seeking $12,500 in a test case, and as many as 140 former East German athletes, including Krieger, are deciding whether to file similar complaints. Last month, a state court in Frankfurt ruled that KŲnig's case could proceed. Indications are that the case could be settled out of court, according to German news reports.

    Jens Steinigen, KŲnig's lawyer, said in a telephone interview that he was also exploring the possibility of suing the pharmaceutical company VEB Jenapharm, formerly state-run and now a subsidiary of the Schering AG Group. According to evidence in the criminal trials of the late 1990's, Jenapharm produced the steroid Oral-Turinabol that was given to East German athletes.

    ''We won't be able to make these wrongs undone, but the athletes can still use the money for medicine or therapy,'' Steinigen said.

    As Krieger sees it, no amount of money could restore his health, which he considers harmed by steroid use and secondary effects. He experiences such intense discomfort in his hips and thighs, from lifting massive amounts of weight while on performance-enhancing drugs, that he can no longer sleep on his side. Only the mildest physical exertion is tolerable. Long unemployed, he now works two days a week as a clerk for a real estate agent.

    On Tuesday, the same day that President Bush called for an end to steroid abuse in American sports in his State of the Union address, Krieger again told his own story, feeling compelled to shed more light on one of the darkest chapters in the history of performance-enhancing drugs.

    As many as 10,000 East German athletes were involved in a state-sponsored attempt to build a country of 16 million into a sports power rivaling the United States and the Soviet Union, recent trials and documents of the East German secret police have revealed.

    An estimated 500 to 2,000 former East German athletes are believed to be experiencing significant health problems associated with steroids, including liver tumors, heart disease, testicular and breast cancer, gynecological problems, infertility, depression and eating disorders. Some female athletes have reported miscarriages and have had children born with deformities like club feet.

    In 2002, two years after the criminal trials ended, the German government established a compensation fund of $2.5 million for the doping victims, with a maximum payout of $12,500. Only 311 athletes, however, made claims -- Krieger among them -- by the deadline of March 31, 2003, according to Birgit Boese, a board member of Doping Victim Aid, an assistance group.

    Some athletes were unaware of the fund, while others were embarrassed, afraid of losing their jobs, unable to gain full access to their medical files or unsuccessful in convincing doctors that their ailments were directly related to steroid use, Boese said.

    ''There was a lot of denial and still is,'' Boese said of the athletes. ''Many have never, or only now, understood that they were abused by people they trusted.''

    Some of the most outspoken have faced harassment and threats. Ines Geipel, a retired East German sprinter who chronicled the doping system in a book, ''Lost Games,'' said she had been confronted at readings in 2001 by former East German officials. As recently as Jan. 18, she said, an anonymous phone caller told her, ''You know there is not much time left for you.''

    Neither she nor Krieger has been deterred.

    ''People should know what happened, what side effects can be generated,'' Krieger said, speaking through an interpreter inside a concrete-block apartment building left from the Communist days in Magdeburg, a 90-minute train ride west of Berlin.

    As Andreas, he has a goatee, wide shoulders and a narrow waist, and is handsome in a Three Musketeers kind of way. Told this, his wife, Ute Krause, said, ''D'Artagnan,'' and he gestured as if sword fighting, saying ''en garde'' to an imaginary foe.

    When discussing the effects of doping, Andreas became serious and animated, sometimes emotional, smoking cigarettes and nervously rubbing his palms. When he was Heidi Krieger, scratching of the hands became a compulsive act and sometimes drew blood.

    Though Krieger said he was happy, his life remains complicated. At 38, he is married to Krause, 41, a former East German swimmer. They met in Berlin at the criminal trials. Before Ute and Andreas were wed, he explained to her teenage daughter, Katja, that he, too, was once a girl. Katja accepted his explanation and her mother and Andreas married in May 2002.

    Theirs began as a desperate kind of love. Ute and Andreas were former elite athletes, damaged by steroids, betrayed by coaches and officials they trusted and eager to testify against them. Both were once given to thoughts of suicide. They leaned on each other for information and support during the trials. Both had come to believe their drug-fueled performances were no longer legitimate.

    Andreas's gold medal from the 1986 European championships, now part of a trophy designed as a steroid molecule, is given as an annual award to Germans involved in anti-doping efforts. Ute keeps a framed certificate of her 1978 world rankings in the backstroke in a symbolic location, over the toilet.

    He is glad that he became a man, Krieger said, explaining that Heidi felt out of place and longed in some vague way to be a boy. What makes Krieger angry, Krause said, is a belief that the steroids essentially made the decision for Heidi, leaving her unable to sort out her sexual identity on her own.

    ''They pushed her out of her sex,'' said Geipel, the former sprinter and writer who is a friend of Krieger's.

    A Teenager's Torment

    In 1979, at age 14, Heidi Krieger began attending the Sports School for Children and Youth in Berlin. It was affiliated with the powerful sports club Dynamo, which was sponsored by the Stasi, the East German secret police.

    At 16, Heidi began to receive round blue pills wrapped in foil. This was the steroid Oral-Turinabol, but coaches typically called them vitamins that would increase strength and help the athletes endure the stress of training. In Heidi's case, the Oral-Turinabol was given in tandem with birth control pills.

    Six months later, Heidi's clothes no longer fit and she felt ''like the Michelin Man or a stuffed goose,'' Krieger said. By the time she was 18, she weighed 220 pounds, had a deep voice, increased body and facial hair and appeared mannish. On the streets of Berlin, Krieger said, Heidi was derisively called a homosexual or a pimp. Once on a commuter train, in the presence of her mother, she was called a drag queen. She went home, removed her skirt and never wore one again.

    At the airport in Vienna, where Heidi had gone for a track meet, a flight attendant gave her directions to the men's bathroom. Even later, as she considered a sex-change operation, Krieger said, a psychologist asked, ''So you want to change from a man to a woman?''

    The insults stung, but Heidi kept taking the blue pills. She had wild mood swings, from depression to aggression to euphoria. Once, she swiped at a boxer who had taunted her. When she stopped taking the birth control pills, her breasts began to hurt severely. She felt out of place at the sports school and in her own body, but the shot-put was a way to measure up, to fit in. By 1986, she had become the European champion.

    ''The only thing I could do was sports,'' Krieger said. ''I got to travel, I received recognition. I got the feeling that I belonged. That's what I wanted, to belong. From my point of view, I deserved it. I had worked hard. To question whether these were hormones I was being given, I didn't ask or suspect.''

    Clearly, though, the steroids had a profound effect on her performances. And Heidi received drugs in large doses. As a 16-year-old, she put the shot just over 46 feet. Three years later, she pushed beyond 65 feet 6 inches. Trainers and doctors referred to her as Hormone Heidi.

    According to medical research records uncovered by Brigitte Berendonk, a onetime West German Olympian, and her husband, Dr. Werner Franke, a molecular biologist from Heidelberg, Heidi Krieger received 2,590 milligrams of Oral-Turinabol in 1986, the year she won the European championship.

    ''That's about 1,000 milligrams more than Ben Johnson got in 1988,'' Franke said in a telephone interview, referring to the Canadian sprinter who was stripped of his gold medal at the Summer Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, after testing positive for the steroid stanozolol.

    After the Fall

    Eventually, Heidi's powerful muscles and strenuous workouts began to overwhelm her joints and skeletal system. Retrieving a training log from June 1988, Krieger displayed a regimen indicating that Heidi lifted more than 100 tons of weights in a two-week period. Such physical strain took a toll on her knees, hips and back, and by 1991, her career ended.

    That same year, Berendonk's seminal book about East German doping, ''From Research to Cheat,'' appeared. But even after Heidi's mother showed her the book, which detailed Heidi's steroid dosage, she did not want to believe that her performances had been achieved through doping rather than simply by skill and determination.

    ''Even then, I was in denial,'' Krieger said.

    Retired, unemployed, the social safety net of her country no longer available to soften her fall after reunification, Heidi began to experience a deepening sense of dislocation, despair and ambiguity about her sexual identity. She never had a relationship with a man. She did have relationships with two women, but did not consider herself a lesbian, Krieger said.

    By 1994, Heidi grew so depressed one day that she filled her tub with water and sat inside with a razor blade, intending to slit her wrists, seeing the blood flow in her mind, Krieger said. At that moment, Heidi's dog, a shepherd named Rex, nuzzled her arm, signaling it was time for a walk.

    ''The dog nudged me with that cold nose and it was like a shock, like I woke up from a dream,'' Krieger said.

    In 1995, Heidi met a transsexual and began considering a sex-change operation, Krieger said. Two years later, she had her breasts removed and underwent a hysterectomy and other surgical procedures to begin the process of becoming a man known as Andreas.

    Eventually, Andreas accepted that Heidi's athletic performances had been fraudulent. This left him feeling sad and angry, Krieger said. Heidi had trusted her coaches and trainers as if they were surrogate parents. But the officials gave her drugs that pushed her in a certain direction, Krieger said, denying her the most important decision she could make.

    ''I didn't have control,'' Krieger said. ''I couldn't find out for myself which sex I wanted to be.''

    By May 30, 2000, Andreas was ready to confront in a Berlin courtroom the former East Germany's top sports official, Manfred Ewald, and the top sports doctor, Manfred HŲppner. As described in the book ''Faust's Gold,'' (St. Martin's Press, 2001) written by an American psychologist, Dr. Steven Ungerleider, Andreas had a dramatic encounter with the presiding judge.

    First, Andreas presented a wrinkled photograph of himself as Heidi. Then he said of the East German officials, ''They just used me like a machine.''

    He described hating his body, and spoke of a mind ''crazy with panic,'' filled with thoughts of suicide. He told of the sex-change procedure, and in a moment of brutal poignancy, said of his mother, ''She says no matter who I am, boy or girl, she will always love me.''

    Ewald and HŲppner were both convicted of accessory to the intentional bodily harm of athletes and were given probation. Upon testifying, Andreas said he lost his fear of the two men. And he got some confirmation of his beliefs from the verdicts.

    ''The words used in court were that the giving of relatively high doses of Oral-Turinabol to a girl around puberty has significantly contributed to development into transsexuality,'' said Franke, the molecular biologist whose research into the East German doping system formed the basis of the criminal prosecutions.

    Although the complex decision to have a sex change could not precisely be connected to steroids, the psychologist Ungerleider said, ''Emotional fallout from high levels of testosterone can make people unsure who they are.''

    Facing Life Today

    In a twist to his story, Andreas Krieger is again receiving hormones every three weeks, this time as therapeutic injections to maintain his maleness. The hormones are more benign versions of the testosterone derivatives that East German officials fed him. He still feels depression near the end of each hormonal cycle, and he worries that he is at a higher risk of cancer.

    Still, Andreas said, ''It's better than I had before.''

    In Krause, his wife, and her daughter, Katja, he has a renewed sense of family and belonging. And Ute understands what Andreas experienced as an athlete in a way that does not need words. As a swimmer, she had her own problems, developing bulimia in an attempt to stem weight gain from steroids. She struggled with bulimia for 20 years, she said, and once tried to kill herself by swallowing sleeping pills and vodka.

    ''Since we have been together, she has not thrown up,'' Andreas said.

    Ute manages a pair of nursing homes as Andreas struggles to find a job in graphic design in a region with high unemployment. When they watch sports, it is with a certain skepticism about doping. Now, when he sees a woman throw the shot more than 65 feet, Andreas said, ''I know this is not only from drinking water.''

    He is adamant that athletes caught using drugs should be treated as criminals and banned permanently from sports. And he considers it hypocritical for other countries to hire coaches from the former East Germany. Through it all, Andreas keeps Heidi close, memories pressed between the pages of a scrapbook.

    ''I have to accept that Heidi is part of my history,'' Andreas said. ''The more open I am, the less problems I have. Less than if I try to deny her.''

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by Tintin (here)
    ...

    My take on incarnation, and reincarnation, which just about every one of us is experiencing, for real, is something along these lines: the machine of the physical (your human form) is being readied for your arrival; the already arranged deal is that you inhabit that physical form at just the right time with an already agreed gender assignment.
    ...

    ...

    Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen - anything that may later contradict that is likely a socially engineered contrivance.
    I recently read a book about people who (seemingly inexplicably) reincarnate to experience serious addiction, or severe physical maladies. Bearing that in mind - and my belief/understanding that incarnation is primarily a learning experience - it seems like some souls have indeed made a pre-birth plan to go through the experience of "transgendering." Transgender is indeed about gender, not biological sex. I am of the opinion that no amount of surgery or hormone therapy can change the biological sex of an individual, and despite the rhetoric, I suspect that those who transgender know this (and yet are compelled to get as close as they can to metamorphosing their biological sex.)

    I see one major problem for those that desire to transgender: that they do not have the physical and psychological experiences in childhood of the new gender, even if they have a strong desire to have had those experiences, they simply don't. So, they not only don't have the foundational physical and psychological experiences of the opposite sex growing up, there is no technology to enable a transfer of experience to simulate that (except maybe very detailed and extensive past life memory recall.) Going through trangender process has to be a very difficult experience, and I do have a lot of empathy for them on that journey. Far more than I could handle.

    Should transgendered people compete athletically, against those of their new gender? I'm OK with it. Having raised a daughter who played several sports, I saw that there are always one or two kids that far far outshine everyone else, and your own kid has to have exceptional determination and practice just to come in third. The majority of us humans are not natural top-tier athletes, so there is no equity in sports anyway. By the law of averages, most transgenders would not be top-tier athletes, so in most cases it wouldn't matter. One of the toughest pick-up basketball games I ever played was against a group of women (who were college b-ballers with skills far beyond mine or my brothers, and I was at least a foot taller than any of the women. They competed against men just fine, and it wouldn't have been any different if we had been m-to-f transgenders.)


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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    More on Andreas (formerly Heidi) Krieger.



    Money quote:

    "I wouldn't have wanted to carry on living as a woman. The only way for me to carry on living and surviving was as a man, and I feel like I have a new life. It's so much more positive that it every was when I was a girl or a woman. It was the most important and necessary thing in my life."

    The other thought I have is that many have remarked on the violence it does to the body to change one's gender. And yet, the only violence that Krieger and his wife complain about is from the steroids that he and his wife were forced to take as East German athletes.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    I donít understand why people who are different care about being socially accepted. Especially if one sees society as sick, what worth is social acceptance from a sick society?

    My best friend who was gay never came out of the closet (passed away, suicide). He felt defenceless in a wheelchair and was frightened of being beaten up. So I get thereís a safety issue there, even these days and even for able bodied people. So donít tell anyone, whatís wrong with that? Itís sexuality, itís not like itís anyone elseís business anyway.

    Same with gender. Whose business is it anyway? Nobody I know cares, not for it or against it, we just donít care, itís not our business. I imagine it would be a big issue when it comes to being intimate with others, but again, thatís private. Perhaps people have the thought that if it was more socially acceptable then it wouldnít be such a big issue with intimate relationships but I canít see how, thatís up to the individual, thatís a personal choice and nobody need know anyway.

    I understand loneliness. I have my own family now but when I didnít the loneliness became very heavy, even though I didnít need anybody. I was fine with it but after about 15 years it felt really heavy physically, it was so overwhelming that itís caused me to suspect a human can actually die from loneliness. But as long as I was alone it didnít hurt, it only hurts in social settings, so I just kept to myself, problem solved.

    These days, with the internet, there are groups for everyone, why not simply find your group if solitude isnít comforting for you. All my life Iíve been really different, Iím never going to fit in anywhere and I donít care. Whatís so bad about not being socially accepted? I donít get it and I donít even buy that society is sick, just the media that portrays it.

    Youíre you, being you is all that really matters, who cares if youíre accepted or not, youíve already nailed the most important part of life.
    Never give up on your silly, silly dreams.

    You mustn't be afraid to dream a little BIGGER, darling.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by Tintin (here)
    Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen -
    Do not be so affirmative with this statement. Who knows exactly how many billions of entities are hanging around this planet waiting for an opportunity to come back to this disaster zone and find truth about their situation? There can be scrambling or pushing at the hospital or wherever to get to that baby body. It goes for the majority as an automaticity and errors are possible. IMHO

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by Innocent Warrior (here)
    I donít understand why people who are different care about being socially accepted. Especially if one sees society as sick, what worth is social acceptance from a sick society?
    It is both nature and nurture that make one need social acceptance. It starts off at an early age, perhaps, when you go to school and your mother buys you the wrong type of shoes, and one of your peers singles you and makes fun of you and then the other children glom on and gang stalk you. Some children get deeply upset by this experience. A few couldn't care at all. We all have some need to be liked and admired.

    For some who have experienced stigma, they eventually get hardened and learn to live with it, and a new stigma doesn't bother them. For instance, some people who have experienced racial discrimination as children, don't have as hard a time coming out as gay when they are teens - they've already figured out that it is society, and not them, that is sick.

    I feel like now I am having my second "coming out" in life, now that I am interested in ufology, what really happened on 9/11, etc. Quite socially acceptable here on Project Avalon, if not necessary, but from my university educated friends, this bears a huge stigma. There are lots of people that I don't really care what they think of me, but I have a few friends who I value on many levels and just can't deal with "the alien thing" so I put that in my pocket. I think that was a good decision because they are starting to come around. But this is just another form of discrimination out there, rejecting people because of their beliefs.

    But being "social acceptable" is more than just about having friends who validate you and make you feel wanted, people are cast out of their families, loose jobs, get thrown out of public place and even have physical violence done to them.

    Quote Youíre you, being you is all that really matters, who cares if youíre accepted or not, youíve already nailed the most important part of life.
    That's a great way to be. I wish it would be easier for most of us to get to that place.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    Quote Posted by Kryztian (here)
    Quote Posted by Innocent Warrior (here)
    I donít understand why people who are different care about being socially accepted. Especially if one sees society as sick, what worth is social acceptance from a sick society?
    It is both nature and nurture that make one need social acceptance. It starts off at an early age, perhaps, when you go to school and your mother buys you the wrong type of shoes, and one of your peers singles you and makes fun of you and then the other children glom on and gang stalk you. Some children get deeply upset by this experience. A few couldn't care at all. We all have some need to be liked and admired.

    For some who have experienced stigma, they eventually get hardened and learn to live with it, and a new stigma doesn't bother them. For instance, some people who have experienced racial discrimination as children, don't have as hard a time coming out as gay when they are teens - they've already figured out that it is society, and not them, that is sick.

    I feel like now I am having my second "coming out" in life, now that I am interested in ufology, what really happened on 9/11, etc. Quite socially acceptable here on Project Avalon, if not necessary, but from my university educated friends, this bears a huge stigma. There are lots of people that I don't really care what they think of me, but I have a few friends who I value on many levels and just can't deal with "the alien thing" so I put that in my pocket. I think that was a good decision because they are starting to come around. But this is just another form of discrimination out there, rejecting people because of their beliefs.

    But being "social acceptable" is more than just about having friends who validate you and make you feel wanted, people are cast out of their families, loose jobs, get thrown out of public place and even have physical violence done to them.

    Quote Youíre you, being you is all that really matters, who cares if youíre accepted or not, youíve already nailed the most important part of life.
    That's a great way to be. I wish it would be easier for most of us to get to that place.
    Really well explained, thank you.

    Iíve lived a lot of that, so I really get it, but for me thatís all the more reason not to care.

    I agree, itís necessary to take a pragmatic approach, we have to survive and circumstances dictate a lot too, but as far as personal suffering is concerned, I donít think itís necessary to care. Thatís the part I donít understand, because itís so restricted and it causes too much suffering. I donít think we can last very long without love though, so Iím talking about feeling accepted by the wider society (social norms).

    It can hurt a lot to be different in a society that rewards and celebrates popularity and whatís accepted, but not near as much as caring about whether that society accepts you or not. Not if youíre really different.

    Thatís the way I see it and I think that if some donít need it then nobody does, but you might be right, it could just come down to individual differences.

    Well for what itís worth, it seems like a social control mechanism to me, with the degree that itís valued anyway.
    Never give up on your silly, silly dreams.

    You mustn't be afraid to dream a little BIGGER, darling.

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    Default Re: Transgender Woman Could Make Argentine Soccer History

    hello all,
    I have some contributions to this thread (pardon my bad english, indeed)

    First, my country already officially accept transgender in women's volleyball. Great players said it's not fair, because the body muscles makes the transgender player more powerful, even beside strong women. This one on the image bellow also try to be elected as congressist, plays on a team sponsored by a government workers' organization (called SESC - Commerce Social Service).



    this first comment address (at least) some part of this issue to political pourposes, sports, and of course, the mainstream media (which explore the News)

    ---

    Second, beside the issue about transgender, I would like to share two (tech) keywords to investigate:

    XY Gonadal Dysgenesis, also known as Swyer Syndrome

    People with Swyer syndrome are born with the appearance of a normal female in most anatomic respects except that the child has nonfunctional gonads instead of ovaries or testes. As their ovaries produce no important body changes before puberty, a defect of the reproductive system typically remains unsuspected until puberty fails to occur. They appear to be normal girls and are generally considered so.

    I will not develop the subject in this post, but the most adequate line of thought that I know today, takes into account an ethical precept, where anti-physiologism can be an option, but it is not the best evolutionary path that exists. Some experts I met said that it can even be considered a deviation, and perhaps a distraction, so for now ethically speaking, I also agree with this text bellow:

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    As much as transgender activists insist otherwise, sex is a biological reality that carries with it a number of concrete practical effects.
    obs - Swyer sindrome (woman with XY chromosomes) is very rare and not included on the anti-physiologism point of view, indeed, on this circunstance the issue become very delicate.
    Last edited by RogeRio; 17th February 2020 at 02:41. Reason: bad english

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