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Thread: You Are The Illuminati

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default You Are The Illuminati

    I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history and I had a little epiphany...

    The suggestion was, when reading about, say, Nazi Germany, to view yourself as one of the perpetrators, and not as some hero. Most of us would like to believe we'd have been Oscar Schindler, but that's nonsense. 99% of us would have either been Nazis or we would have been complicit with the whole movement. We would have went along with it all, in other words, just like the German citizens did.

    And the only way to prevent that from happening again is to realize that you are the Nazis. And only when you admit to yourself that you're just as capable of doing what the Nazis did - and you might even enjoy it! - can you then take the appropriate steps to ensure that doesn't happen again.

    Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.

    One who is willing to accept these truths is often mistaken for a bad guy. One who is unwilling to accept these truths is often mistaken for a nice guy. These are things we superficially perceive. But on a deeper level we know it's not true. It's why women are always more attracted to the "bad boy", even as they profess to genuinely want a "nice guy". It's because on a deeper level they know that the so called bad boy actually has more integrity than the so called nice guy; he has acknowledged his potential for danger and destruction with courage, and in doing so has opened up the possibility of taming it all. The "nice guy" can't even make the initial acknowledgement, and in response embraces the role of the beta male, politically correct, rom-com softy...because in the absence of courage it's the only game left for him to play.

    At the moment we have a scourge of "nice guys" (and "nice girls") who aren't seeing clearly. Their deficiencies won't allow them to see that they are the illuminatti. They cloak their lack of courage and bravery in a veil of righteousness, which has manifested itself as this postmodern, PC culture we see today. They've manufactured a scenario in which noble males are "toxic", and weak males are noble. It's an elaborate scheme used to flip logic and morality on it's head.

    You are the illuminatti. Make no mistake. Just like the Nazis and their complicit citizenship, the members of the generational ruling families existing today are only doing what 99% of all of you would be doing if you had the power and wealth they did. We have no idea what it's like to have all that power.It always makes me chuckle when some Joe Schmo makes some moral judgement about a celebrity who has been caught cheating on his wife...as if he would have resisted temptation had he been presented with the same opportunities. It's that whole bit, only on a much larger scale.

    I think it's important for us to express our indignation with all this in mind.
    Last edited by Mike; 19th February 2020 at 09:27.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Had this conversation with a few people a way back when. Asked them if they could kill someone and this one woman said she couldn't under any circumstances. She was shocked when I told her I had run the scenario through my mind a few times and knew I could do it very easily under the right conditions -- and I am sure she could too.

    I appreciate people who wrestle with those parts of themselves they feel are wild or rough or not socially acceptable. Makes them real.

    As far as the Nazi thing goes, we can assume we would be Nazis back in the day and we would behave as they did. I totally agree. I hope that some of us have inoculated ourselves from the inevitability of acting on natural violent impulses, in the future by reflecting on history. And as you have described very well, we don't have to go all out and identify with Nazis but we should be able to imagine being them.

    And yes, most men get lack of opportunity and or cowardice confused with being on high moral ground.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    I do not support the continued occupation of Afghanistan.

    I did not vote for Trump.

    I do not support the continued occupation of Iraq.

    I did not vote for Obama.

    I do not support Military Tribunals, which we have all seemed to have forgotten about.

    I do not support Guantanamo Bay being open.

    I do not support the American Military.

    I do not support the Police. Abolish the police. Fascist in Blue

    I do not support the War on Drugs.

    I am against Imperalism.

    I could keep listing things.

    I actively voice this dissent.

    I am not a Nazi.

    If you do not actively voice your dissent on these things, then why?

    If continue to support presidents that do not change this course, you are an asshole.

    How about you not lump all of us together Mike.

    I do actively oppose this children in cages ****.

    If you support trump. You support destroying families by separating them and holding children in cages.
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    That's good if I'm part of the Illuminatti instead of the Illuminati.

    People never really know what they're truly capable of until they actually forced to in extreme situations.

    Humans have tremendous potential for good and evil. May we all hope that we can keep the integrity of our soul intact when the time comes.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    I have been considering these topics for quite awhile. In our culture we give passes to certain attributes. If someone is considered "nice" they get a lot of breaks, they avoid suspicion and are generally included. In the work setting I have always been considered really nice. One of the reasons is that I don't want anything to do with conflict. I avoid it at all costs. It occurred to me that this trait is not so much about being nice but about my discomfort and poor skills in dealing with conflict. I could give similar examples about other nice traits. In many cases my nice is really about a lack of coping skills and probably deficient self respect.

    Being able to look at the Nazis and German citizens and judge them is about righteous indignation. "I would never do that". I doubt many could withstand the influence to cooperate with something they believe is wrong if the right fear tactics were used. We are all weak to something. I think the strong bond a parent has for children might be one of the few things that could allow for true courage.

    Another thing, never forget the power of programming and indoctrination. What appears so evil now wouldn't have appeared that bad to those directly participating.Denial and rationalization are very powerful influences. Those that are quickest to scream ''Nazi" at others are sitting back passively as their government enters into endless regime change wars for the sake of corporate interest( in the US). The misery and death of untold innocents never even acknowledged. The total inability of people to see this at some level is really, really scary.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    I do not support the continued occupation of Afghanistan.

    I did not vote for Trump.

    I do not support the continued occupation of Iraq.

    I did not vote for Obama.

    I do not support Military Tribunals, which we have all seemed to have forgotten about.

    I do not support Guantanamo Bay being open.

    I do not support the American Military.

    I do not support the Police. Abolish the police. Fascist in Blue

    I do not support the War on Drugs.

    I am against Imperalism.

    I could keep listing things.

    I actively voice this dissent.

    I am not a Nazi.

    If you do not actively voice your dissent on these things, then why?

    If continue to support presidents that do not change this course, you are an asshole.

    How about you not lump all of us together Mike.

    I do actively oppose this children in cages ****.

    If you support trump. You support destroying families by separating them and holding children in cages.


    supporting Trump??

    Praxis, take a break maybe.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Had this conversation with a few people a way back when. Asked them if they could kill someone and this one woman said she couldn't under any circumstances. She was shocked when I told her I had run the scenario through my mind a few times and knew I could do it very easily under the right conditions -- and I am sure she could too.

    I appreciate people who wrestle with those parts of themselves they feel are wild or rough or not socially acceptable. Makes them real.

    As far as the Nazi thing goes, we can assume we would be Nazis back in the day and we would behave as they did. I totally agree. I hope that some of us have inoculated ourselves from the inevitability of acting on natural violent impulses, in the future by reflecting on history. And as you have described very well, we don't have to go all out and identify with Nazis but we should be able to imagine being them.

    And yes, most men get lack of opportunity and or cowardice confused with being on high moral ground.




    yeah I think we're all closet monsters. your friend sounds like a naive one..which ironically makes her one of the most dangerous. but of course i totally get why she'd react like that. no judgements from me - i was reacting sort of similarly not too long ago before i began studying these concepts.

    there's a book out there called 'ordinary men', and it's about nazi policemen who were patrolling wartime poland during world war 2. over time, their responsibilities grew more and more gruesome. their superior told them they could return to germany if they didnt have the stomach to continue to do these things, but most stayed because they felt a sense of obligation to their fellow officers - if they left, their fellow officers would be forced to do it all. that was the mentality.

    these were very ordinary men, as the title suggests, but they become the type of men who could take pregnant women out into frozen fields and execute them. they became physically sick at the things they were asked to do; they wept as they were doing them. but they did them nonetheless.

    it's a terrible book to read, but the perfect example of what we're talking about here

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    peterpam, great post there. i'm actually pretty similar. i'm mostly an agreeable person! much of this stuff i'm suggesting - like shadowwork - are things i know i need to improve upon myself. i'm glad you had that realization and shared it here.

    Nietzche has a great quote that's pretty relevant here, and it runs along the lines of what you wrote about so well there: "morality is cowardice". and what he means of course is that most of the stuff that is being passed off as morality is really cowardice in a costume. it's a fear to do what most would like to do, all cloaked in sanctimony. morality is something we hide behind to mask our lack of courage, basically.

    i think it's partially why we all secretly admire the archetypal bad guy in the movies

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    That's good if I'm part of the Illuminatti instead of the Illuminati.

    People never really know what they're truly capable of until they actually forced to in extreme situations.

    Humans have tremendous potential for good and evil. May we all hope that we can keep the integrity of our soul intact when the time comes.



    as usual, you are the calm voice of reason my friend.

    that bit there about not knowing who we truly are until forced into extreme situations, that's crucial. that's precisely why i think it's so important to willingly expose ourselves to malevolence from time to time. Autumn used the perfect word "inoculate"..and that's what this does. it inoculates and prepares us for the inevitable arrival of the horrific.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    This thread makes me recall an event I experienced.

    I was an infantry soldier (MOS 11Bravo) assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division during the Vietnam [police action]. On May 1, 1971 many units of the 82nd, including the company to which I was assigned, were deployed to Washington DC to "combat" anti-war protests that were taking place across the US of A, including and especially in DC.

    We were there about 3 days presenting a military presence and violating Posse Comitatus by acting as a domestic police force. We carried weapons but had no ammunition in them. On the second or third day, our company commander, Cpt. Barr (about 5' 4" with a real Napoleon Complex), gave an order to issue live ammunition to everyone in our company. I was a squad leader at that time. Upon being given the order, I went to my platoon leader and other squad leaders to protest and to ask if the order was legitimate. I other words, what authority did Barr have to give the order to issue live ammunition and why was he doing that.

    Long story short, a few of us located a Major and asked about the order. He was shocked to learn that Barr had done that. The Major came to our company, confronted Barr and put an end to the order. Barr wound up facing disciplinary action--which to my knowledge not much happened to him.

    My point is, there was no way I would have put live ammo in my weapon (an M60 machine gun) and if I did I would not have shot anybody. That was also the attitude of most of the soldiers in my company. There were some exceptions. The exceptions were to be found among some, but not all, of the soldiers who had spent a tour or two in Nam in combat, or fire fights as they became known. They had mental issues most of us did not.

    I know for a fact there were then, and I am sure now, people who will commit murder in the name of their country. I also know for a fact there are many who will not. They are not cowards. In my book, it is those who will kill innocent non-combatants who are the evil cowards

    I will not hesitate to defend myself or others, but I will not under any circumstances kill for the sake and thrill of killing, or as some nebulous call to duty. Anyone who expects me to is my enemy.

    I am not alone in this. Many military studies show that during combat many soldiers do not even attempt to hit the enemy when firing. Rather, they point their weapons down, up, around and over the enemy. That is a "problem" the military has struggled with.

    One goal of the military is to overcome the hesitancy to kill another human. Sadly, they have done a masterful job of that in the past few decades.

    Edit: I make this edit to make clear, as I have in other posts, that I was drafted in 1970. I did not volunteer for the Army. I spent the first 16 years of my life as an "Air Force brat" and being in the Army at the age of 19-20 was not a culture shock for me.
    Last edited by Satori; 20th February 2020 at 00:22.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    supporting Trump??

    Praxis, take a break maybe.
    You made a thread where you called us, the audience reading, illuminati and essentially that we are just like the people of all fascist/authoritarian regimes that passively allow the changes to happen.

    I took issue with your accusation. I get that by being a citizen of the US I am part of the problem as my working here and being here supports and funds the US imperial apparatus.
    Why do you think I am so vocal about nit picky about politics?

    We are all guilty as you say, but I was trying to call out that maybe some of us on here are actively working at positive change.

    Please explain further why I should take a break? I rarely post as it is. Perhaps you would like me to stop entirely?


    Want to know more about Satori's story?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_A...967%E2%80%9368

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    I lost 2 family members in the 9/11 attack. My brother did 4 tours in Iraq. He told me stories that still give me nightmares. Stories that shocked me down to my soul. He will never be the same. I will never be the same.

    Could I kill someone? If they were threatening my family, my country, me....without hesitation. I own guns and I am well trained in how to use them and given the opportunity would I take out anyone who had something to do with the planning and execution of 9/11. Without hesitation.

    I consider this a black spot in my heart and it hurts me that I can admit I would do it, but I would. Does that make me Illuminati? I guess I don't know the answer to that. One of the reasons I moved so far out in the middle of nowhere was to escape the darkness and malevolence. But I know I cannot escape it, it is still there. I deal with it by being nice to everyone I meet, trying to do simple acts of kindness. I try to keep kindness in my heart. I try to help the earth heal from the poison we have dumped onto her. But the darkness is always there lurking.....

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    You Are The Illuminati !

    No I'm not.............

    .............. I'm a very naughty boy!

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Interesting observation of the reality that the vast majority of people would indeed commit atrocities or at least inflict (non-defensive) violence against other human beings if told to do so. It does make me wonder how much of it is actually innate (Mike's point) and how much of it shows the power of programming. In other words, would it hold up statistically in a culture where violence against other humans was not the norm and not inculcated into the society (say, the Inuit for a possible example.) I do currently live in a country that actively programs violence against others as a solution to issues, and one in which the current, and previous, and next previous presidents and congresspersons not only accepted the atrocity of torturing other humans, but of actually codifying it into federal law and active policy. That this is a non-issue for most US citizens is very telling.

    I don't know how well you (dear reader) know yourself and have had your integrity tested, but I will say that for myself, there was a time in my youth (before about age 16) when I was probably as vulnerable to the programming as anyone. Interestingly, though, I have a very hard time visualizing myself ever acquiescing to torture, though I could have killed. At the age of 17, I began reading Zen Buddhist literature, and began a spiritual transformation journey. I got a mail-order certificate that said I was a reverend in the Universal Life Church, and presented the credentials to the draft board (the Vietnam war was raging, and I was about to be drafted into the army.) I received a "D-3", "student of divinity" classification, while all of my male high school friends got the "1-A" (or was it "1-H"?) classification: prime meat. If I was going to be force conscripted into the army and shipped off to Vietnam, it was going to be with a copy of the Tao te Ching in my hands, not a rifle. (My draft lottery number was "4", but the Nixon administration - or more accurately, whoever behind the curtain controlled the Nixon administration - ended the draft just before I would have been conscripted.)

    When I was 20 years old, I was for a short stint the caretaker/guard of the largest gold mine and processing mill in a 4-state area, the Glory Hole gold mine and mill just above Central City, Colorado. I had a loaded rifle, and was tasked primarily with chasing away the thieves/souvenir hunters that would steal property from the (then inactive) gold milling facility. I never actually had to brandish the rifle - just showing myself as present a few times when cars stopped and (suspected) souvenir hunters got out was enough to get them to go back into their cars and leave. Then, one day a truck pulled up and a man got out and was walking toward the mill, and my then girlfriend's Afghan hound dog confronted the guy, barking up a storm and running around him. He began kicking the dog. I got the rifle and aimed it at him, ordering him to stop. This was the only time in my life I have ever aimed a gun at a human. He did stop kicking the dog, said he was going to get the sheriff, got into his truck and left.

    I was so full of adrenaline that I have to wonder if I could have, or would have, pulled the trigger if he had not stopped kicking the dog (who was like a family member to my girlfriend.) The emotional aftermath was a lot of self-examination. The sheriff did come and told me not to ever aim a gun at anyone even if they were trespassing or stealing, but that was the only official rebuke. My own mind provided much more than that. In fact, sometime in the ensuing weeks, I had a far too vivid dream in which I did kill someone, and stashed their body in one of the mine shafts. The dream was so real that it felt like an experience, not a dream. The dream haunted me for weeks - maybe months. Was it real or a dream? I could visualize the mine shaft (even though, in reality, I had never been in a mine shaft at the Glory Hole mine - I have been in other mine shafts so I know what it looks like and feels like to be in one.) Could I, a Zen Buddhist monk wannabee, someone who had already started the self-deprogramming process and had already dedicated myself to peace, have killed someone?

    Torture is a different realm than the instantaneous pulling of a trigger. Torture would require a process over time rather than an instantaneous decision. I could never acquiesce to torture, and I'm certain I would have been the outlier in the Millgram Experiment who would have refused to participate in torture. I also see non-instantaneous murder (like when a soldier is ordered to round some people up and take them out into a field or mass grave and shoot them, a longer process that would give time to actually mentally process what was going on) as a different realm. I'm incapable of that, but believe that Mike's supposition that almost everyone would indeed do as they were ordered to do as a reality.


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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    supporting Trump??

    Praxis, take a break maybe.
    You made a thread where you called us, the audience reading, illuminati and essentially that we are just like the people of all fascist/authoritarian regimes that passively allow the changes to happen.

    I took issue with your accusation. I get that by being a citizen of the US I am part of the problem as my working here and being here supports and funds the US imperial apparatus.
    Why do you think I am so vocal about nit picky about politics?

    We are all guilty as you say, but I was trying to call out that maybe some of us on here are actively working at positive change.

    Please explain further why I should take a break? I rarely post as it is. Perhaps you would like me to stop entirely?


    Want to know more about Satori's story?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_A...967%E2%80%9368


    I'm saying there is a potential for you to be a Nazi or Illuminatti. I'm saying that the same mechanism that drove their horrific acts exists within all of us. And I'm talking about me too. I'm not lecturing an audience from a pulpit. If anything I'm lecturing myself. You share what you need to learn most, right?

    I'm also saying that if you can acknowledge that you're just as capable of these horrors as anyone else , you significantly lessen the chance of that happening. Some people call that "shadow work". At the moment, we have a culture built around enabling weakness and justifying failure. It's all cloaked in self righteous pc language, but it's really just a mirage for moral weakness and laziness. Its a refusal to do shadow work. When you create an entire generation of people like this, you are greatly enhancing the chances of something like Nazi Germany, or (fill in the horrific act here) happening all over again.

    And then I compared all that to the same one dimensional way in which we view the so called illuminatti

    I suggested you take a break because this is the second time in as many days that you have very dramatically misinterpreted me.

    But that's all up to you of course
    Last edited by Mike; 19th February 2020 at 19:41.

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    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.
    Of course, but what's the 2nd step?

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.
    Of course, but what's the 2nd step?


    The second step is properly cultivating virtue. And once you have properly cultivated virtue, you are now morally armed to end as much needless suffering in the world as possible, (and morally armed to speak up loudly when something is very wrong..even if it means drawing the wrath of the mob)

    I don't think you can properly cultivate virtue until you are aware of how horrific you can really be. And that's the shadow work I've referenced several times in this thread.

    It's why "nice" or dogmatically PC oriented people are often the most dangerous people (no, not all nice people Praxis!) Their moral weakness makes them untrustworthy...and more likely to stab you in the back when youre not looking

    I had an ex girlfriend who would often make a very dramatic show of her concern for mankind and her disdain for injustice. But if you'd told her she could feed 10 families for a week if she just worked one shift at Wal-Mart, she wouldn't do it.

    Although she made a big show of her alleged compassion, her actual morality was moored shallowly. She was firmly entrenched in sjw culture, which is really another way of saying she was too frightened to face her shadow, and as a result was too morally weak to ever cultivate authentic virtue, and by extension too weak to truly help anyone. She lived in Seattle, by the way, which is no coincidence.

    So that's an example there of what I'm saying
    Last edited by Mike; 19th February 2020 at 22:09.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    I would question why Nazi keeps coming up as a bad example.

    According to Gen. George Patton:

    "Looks like we fought on the wrong side".

    He got run over for saying that. Twice.

    I am also not sure why Illuminati comes up as a bad example. They were disbanded, and no one cared about them any more, except for op-ed writers further down the road. What governments were actually terrified of was Thomas Paine.

    But the underlying point of the post, how scrupulous you would be in a "what if" scenario, well, I am pretty sure I am not exactly surrounded by White Knights.

    "Nice" smells British, or, what we would call two-faced. In that case, I am not very nice at all. My adversaries have been unable to defeat me by reason; it usually comes down to force, or, authority, since none of them have shot me, yet. Like Dennis, my last fight was over a dog, with the enemy being two pit bulls--no gun involved. Around that time, my girlfriend was attacked by a human in her car; she shot him; and the sherriff said she should have killed him. This ca. 30 year old guy has a rap sheet longer than most 60 year old career criminals, didn't show to court, got a $75k unsecured bond, and still in the two or three years we have not seen justice served by repairing our windshield. So, that much is true...there is someone I would have little difficulty committing unspeakable acts upon. I don't always agree with the opinion of law enforcement, but, on this one, they said what they said.

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    Avalon Member Satori's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    For what itís worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.

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    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    For what itís worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.
    And there is the principle that if you banish your own shadow (aka the "not-I") you energetically influence people around you to act it out. Kind of puts a new slant on marriage and child rearing, eh? :-)
    Last edited by TomKat; 22nd February 2020 at 01:00.

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