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Thread: You Are The Illuminati

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    UK Avalon Member Mac's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.
    And there is the principle that if you banish your own shadow ("not-I)" you energetically influence people around you to act it out.
    " ( not -I ) " ..me neither 8) could you expand a bit on what you mean .. " you energetically influence people around you to act it out " by this. Genuinely interested never heard this before. No worries if a chore just intrigued me. Cheers

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    The shadow should be understood, (not suppressed and dismissed) to prevent its unbridled expression. One of the many reasons people have a nervous reaction to some comedians is because they provide a counter balance to the forces of suppression and help to reveal what their audience actually IS. And they do it quickly, like ripping off a bandaid.

    TomKat makes an interesting point. Have you ever had the irresistable urge to say something totally f'g inappropriate in a social setting full of people who are just super super nice, but not necessarily kind? I had a sjw friend years ago who thought she was the most morally superior person, radical feminist. When I was with her, I found myself behaving in slightly outrageous ways, like I had strong desire to shake her up somehow.

    Trickster Spirits are beings of both chaos and wisdom: There are some things that you can only learn from these beings, and yet to learn from them takes tremendous risk. However, it is often in our times of darkness, strife, and chaos that we have our revelations, and realize important things about ourselves. It is through trial that we evolve, and through constant questioning that we learn. The Sacred Clowns and Tricksters of various cultures embody that chaotic path to wisdom.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    I read another poster Mike I think, write he has to suppress his wise arse voice. That's probably all of us, but I think sometimes among family and friends it's good to let it up and out and flowing.
    It's not who you are but what comes out sometimes is useful to know. Like Mike I don't indulge much as I've gotten older as you don't hang on to things out of your control as much as you do in your youth.
    Most Comedians have a rough ride because of how they have to view life to extract material, but I agree they play an important role. Wouldn't fancy it myself but glad they exist. Agree best understanding the shadow rather than trying to kill it, imo it dissipates greatly once examined but lurks.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Reverend Leahy ..as I was reading everything you wrote in your excellent post, I couldn't help but think of the book, The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solshenitsyn.

    I bet you're familiar with it, but for those that aren't, the book is about the author's struggles first as a soldier on the Russian front in world war 2, and then later as a political prisoner in the forced labor camps (the gulags).

    I won't pretend to have read it all. I'm about halfway thru the abridged version, which is almost 500 pages, but with ultra tiny print..so even that's a little misleading.

    Anyway, the conditions in the camps were absolutely brutal, as you can imagine. Forced confessions in mini kangaroo courts were the order of the day. Inside the prison camp it was a kind of kill or be killed environment. Morality and virtue were largely sacrificed in the face of cold hard survival.

    But A.S. noticed that there were some prisoners who, despite the consequences, refused to compromise their values. They would not sign forced confessions. They would not take advantage of weaker prisoners to make their lives easier.

    At first this made A.S. feel ashamed. Their virtue only highlighted his moral weakness. But then it inspired him to analyze his life with a fine toothed comb to find out where he might have been responsible for his current predicament. He had Hitler and Stalin to blame, and he would have been perfectly justified living his life wallowing in that type of bitterness, but instead he ultimately took personal responsibility for all of it...and it completely changed his life.

    The Stalin era, like the Hitler era, was a lesson in good men and women not speaking up. When that happens a moral rot sets in, and the sky is the limit as far as malevolence goes after that. He didn't speak up when the rot was setting in; so his reflective journey starts there and then he realizes more and more things he could have done that may have prevented his current predicament. He also realizes that he and his captors are much more similar than he would have liked to believe. He realizes that under certain circumstances almost anyone can be a monster, and the only thing separating a monster from a virtuous man is first the acknowledgement of this truth, and second a cultivation of virtue in the face of it all.

    History suggests that in these types of trying circumstances, we would not have been good men. But it's not impossible! There were good men in the face of the absolute worst of circumstances in Stalinist Russia, so there is hope. Those good men are like needles in a haystack. But I truly believe you are one of those extremely rare, good men. It's why I've always looked up to you so much

    I'd love to gift you that book if you're interested! Please pm me your info if you are
    Last edited by Mike; 20th February 2020 at 02:33.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    The shadow should be understood, (not suppressed and dismissed) to prevent its unbridled expression. One of the many reasons people have a nervous reaction to some comedians is because they provide a counter balance to the forces of suppression and help to reveal what their audience actually IS. And they do it quickly, like ripping off a bandaid.

    TomKat makes an interesting point. Have you ever had the irresistable urge to say something totally f'g inappropriate in a social setting full of people who are just super super nice, but not necessarily kind? I had a sjw friend years ago who thought she was the most morally superior person, radical feminist. When I was with her, I found myself behaving in slightly outrageous ways, like I had strong desire to shake her up somehow.

    Trickster Spirits are beings of both chaos and wisdom: There are some things that you can only learn from these beings, and yet to learn from them takes tremendous risk. However, it is often in our times of darkness, strife, and chaos that we have our revelations, and realize important things about ourselves. It is through trial that we evolve, and through constant questioning that we learn. The Sacred Clowns and Tricksters of various cultures embody that chaotic path to wisdom.


    a week ago i was having a small debate/argument with a close friend. he was arguing that the joker in the chris nolan movies was a "Nietzsche'ian hero" because of the lesson in hypocrisy he was trying to reveal to the citizens of gotham (who he mostly regarded as useless). i was arguing that the lesson came at the cost of hundreds of lives, so it was 99.9% insane..which is pretty obvious when you see the movies i think.

    some tricksters trick for the sadistic thrill of it. some trick in an actual attempt to provide a valuable lesson for people. those are the extremes. most tricksters fall somewhere on the spectrum in between.

    i do have a very strong trickster predilection. this often carries negative connotations but is not necessarily a bad thing. Autumn's quote sums it all up really beautifully.

    the authentic trickster only provides what's necessary. sometimes he/she is required to be "bad" for the sake of the good. at other times he/she is required to be kind, caring, clever, manipulative, acerbic, soothing, coddling, challenging, annoying, wise, cowardly, brave.....and so on and so forth.

    Autumn's example of wanting to act outlandishly in the presence of her sanctimonious sjw warrior friend is the perfect example of that. to someone who didn't know any better it may have just seemed obnoxious, but to a trickster type it is only seen as what is required in the moment.

    full disclosure: i know that some of the stuff in this thread is triggering, and my inner trickster does get a little sadistic thrill out of that. i won't apologize for it. i have to feed him now and again. it's part of the trickster faustian pact i give him a little sadistic thrill, and he gives me instructions on how to proceed. it's like that. in fairness, I'm also thrilled when someone seems to have gained or learned in some way from this sh!t. so, my inner trickster does have some virtuous redemption. balance is the name of the game. it keeps jack from being a dull boy

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.


    no you got it brother. thats pretty much it.

    and thank you for that excellent post earlier. i really enjoyed reading it, but i've been at work all day and evening and haven't had the chance to acknowledge it till now

    it actually illustrates perfectly something i was trying to say, only you said it better. and the gist of it is, the best of us are the ones who know what kind of nasty sh!t we're capable of, but instead choose not to do those things.

    but if you don't even acknowledge that you're a monster, you can't choose not to be one. in other words, the nobility is in the choice to "do the right thing" as we often say.

    those that don't even acknowledge that they could do anything evil aren't giving themselves the opportunity to be noble:

    "..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

    ~ Jordan Peterson

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    There was a moment... about 4 years ago where I realized this about myself. It was at that time, I re-branded the organization as...

    The Illumed and Nutty.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    "..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

    ~ Jordan Peterson " "
    ........

    Hi Mike noticed you're quite an admirer of his work. Me too especially his work in the classrooms and most of (not all) what he stood for on the public stage, brave Man. His daughter let slip Mom was the real power in the family, Mom should write a book 8) . I don't know enough about him to endorse him fully but you have to admire his efforts and intelligence whether you agree or not. Hope he recovers quickly, deffo a lively spark when on form. If only all teachers could spark inquiry like he can when he's firing right. His daughter has great potential too imo. GL to them as a family.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    One of my favourite illuminatus was the 17th century, ‘last of the renaissance men’ Robert Fludd. He had some interesting perspectives on virtue and what it means to be a member of ‘the noble race’, those who have conquered crass morality and stepped into the flow of the divine (divine meaning undivided, holy, integrated at all levels of self)...
    Quote The 'Apologia' is in three parts...The different chapters have quotations or mottoes taken from the 'Confessio.' The contents of the work are the germs of Fludd's subsequent writings. These develop his purpose in the 'Apologia' to be 'to protect the purity and innocence of the society and to wipe off the spots of shame smeared over the Brethren, as with a stream of pure wisdom.'...

    ...at page 195, the author [Fludd] addresses the Brethren of the Rosy Cross. He refers to their promise to bring happiness to those who have been reduced to misery by the fall of Adam. He honours them because they serve Christ with pure and upright hearts. He asks pardon of the Brotherhood if, through his ignorance, he has made any error or mistake in his 'Apologia.' He adds, 'he wished nothing more or better than to be only the lowest associate in your order, that he might satisfy the inquisitive ears of men by a trustworthy spreading of your renown.' He then states shortly who he is. 'I am,' he says, 'of a distinguished noble race. My spouse is called 'desire of wisdom'; my children are the fruits produced by it...I have experienced and fortunately overcome the stormy sea, the steep mountains, the slippery vallies, ignorance on land, and the coarseness of the towns; the haughtiness and pride of the citizens, avarice, faithlessness, ignorance, foulness, almost all human inconveniences...I have found that almost everywhere vanity rules and triumphs. All seems to be self-assertive misery and vanity itself.’He then bids the brethren farewell, in all kindness and affection." (Craven, 42-45)

    Robert Fludd's intense religious devotion and mystic quest caused him to be perpetually concerned with the creation myth as comprehended by man. In 1617, he published two works dealing with the subject.

    The first was Tractatus Theologo-Philosophicus. It concerns Life, Death and Resurrection and is essentially a mystical and alchemical account of creation combined with his Mosaical philosophy. As a retelling of Genesis, it describes creation, the garden, Adam and the Fall. It begins with the premise that God, the Word and Light are the origin of the universal life, and the Devil, the origin of death. As an alchemical interpretation, it deals with the separations as a chemical process, or "'high Chymicall virtue' that effected 'the separation of one region from another'...Quite simply, 'earth is dense water, and water is dense air,...air is nothing else than dense and crass fire.'" (Debus, 12-13)

    Divine Light remains a central theme throughout Fludd's writings and represents the active principle behind creation. He considered Adam to be the divine animal, his mind a palace of light and a perfect work of God. The resurrection represents the return to this state of being, before the Fall.

    This work did not receive a great deal of attention or debate. However, its importance to us is that it is dedicated to the Brotherhood of the Rose Cross. In this work, Fludd maintains, says Craven, that "Those who were really sons of God were the light in the Word. Chief among these are the brethren of the Rosy Cross. They have all virtues. Their light is greater than the rising sun. We have, he exclaims 'Leonem fortissimum solem devorantem.' They possess the true alchemy." (Craven, 59)
    An important point in the discussion of virtue is that the original Greek word for virtue “Arete” didn’t just mean moral virtue, but also “excellence of any kind”, similar to the notion of Kung fu in the Taoist system, the fulfilment of ones purpose or potential.
    Quote Arete (Greek: ἀρετή), in its basic sense, means "excellence of any kind".[1] The term may also mean "moral virtue".[1] In its earliest appearance in Greek, this notion of excellence was ultimately bound up with the notion of the fulfillment of purpose or function: the act of living up to one's full potential.
    Quote In general, kung fu/kungfu (/ˌkʌŋˈfuː/ (About this soundlisten) or /ˌkʊŋˈfuː/; 功夫, Pinyin: gōngfu) refers to the Chinese martial arts, also called wushu and quanfa. In China, it refers to any study, learning, or practice that requires patience, energy, and time to complete. In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any discipline or skill achieved through hard work and practice, not necessarily martial arts. The Chinese literal equivalent of "Chinese martial art" would be 中國武術 zhōngguó wǔshù.[1]
    There are many forms of kung fu, namely Shaolin Kung Fu, Wing Chun, Tai chi, etc. and are practiced all over the world. Each form of kung fu has its own principles and techniques, but is best known for its trickery and quickness, which is where the word Kung Fu is derived.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Quote Posted by Mike
    Those appropriate steps involve integrating the shadow, which basically means accepting that you are just as capable of the horrors that they were. Acknowledging that reality is the first step towards avoiding it. An unwillingness to accept those things about yourself almost ensures that you won't be able to avoid it when presented with the opportunity.
    I have had a couple of events that triggered a flooding of awareness about myself and my actions and motivations. The last event was precipitated by a traumatic event and it brought up the actions and motivations of my life. Some of it really ugly, the kind of ugly only someone who has been addicted to something might know. I guess I could have shoved them back down but I didn't do that. I might be blessed/cursed with having to look at events that I previously wrote off as happening strictly due to alcohol addiction and the things that can happen to addicts and the things that addicts do. It was really hard to realize that some things were my willful actions. They didn't fit the narrative I had made for myself.

    The details aren't important, but the thing I would like to share is that although the realization left me feeling pretty broken and beaten,surprisingly, I began to notice some other things. I wasn't aware of a stiffness or a rigidness I carried with me as I protected those areas of myself I felt upheld my self narrative. I don't project as much as I used to. I am less anxious, less fearful and most of all, less judgmental. I am far more open in all areas, not just the ones I deem acceptable. In fact seeing myself with all my flaws has been the most freeing thing that has ever happened to me. It really is like being born again with a new, lighter perspective. To be rid of that psychic rigidness I didn't even know I had is wonderful.

    I can see where this process would be much more challenging if someone doesn't have any blatant history that challenges their self perception. I believe just a willingness to do this opens the door.

    I now understand the process of self inventory that is promoted in 12 step programs. I did it in the past, but I held back. I tried to protect myself and in reality I was distancing and cutting myself off of so much.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Ouch.

    All I can say is Mike, I must like you better than you me, because I would never insult you like that.

    Of course that means I agree I'm a nice guy, a coward, a beta male and a loser. It seems in your eyes I am those things.

    Too bad.

    Now goodbye, I have to go kill a virgin...

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    For what it’s worth, my sense of what Mike was saying by starting this thread is that we are all complicit to one degree or another in the wrong-doing. We see it, and even if we do not directly participate in it, we do so indirectly by doing nothing to stop it. Perhaps I am wrong. It would not be the first time. Or the last.


    no you got it brother. thats pretty much it.
    Ok I am glad that we are all clear here.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    and thank you for that excellent post earlier. i really enjoyed reading it, but i've been at work all day and evening and haven't had the chance to acknowledge it till now

    it actually illustrates perfectly something i was trying to say, only you said it better. and the gist of it is, the best of us are the ones who know what kind of nasty sh!t we're capable of, but instead choose not to do those things.
    .
    What does this mean? If I know I can kill someone but then choose not to I am better than a person that doesnt know they can kill then doesnt( notice the second verb is not choose as there is now only one action available which is not kill)? I dont see how this is the case.

    This doesnt sit well with me for some reason. How about the person that doesnt consider killing to begin with as the most moral? Doesnt it mean that you are less moral by even considering the violence which then you must suppress to become more moral? How very Vulcan of you.

    The person who knows he can kill but doesnt is less moral than the person who doesnt even consider that an initial option. IMO

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    but if you don't even acknowledge that you're a monster, you can't choose not to be one. in other words, the nobility is in the choice to "do the right thing" as we often say.
    So again I would have to argue the person that doesnt even consdier genocide as an option is much more moral than the one that does then rejects.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    those that don't even acknowledge that they could do anything evil aren't giving themselves the opportunity to be noble:

    "..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

    ~ Jordan Peterson

    In this world view, only monsters are virtuous. This also assumes all people are monsters. Or seems to assume it.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Ouch.

    All I can say is Mike, I must like you better than you me, because I would never insult you like that.

    Of course that means I agree I'm a nice guy, a coward, a beta male and a loser. It seems in your eyes I am those things.

    Too bad.

    Now goodbye, I have to go kill a virgin...


    Ernie ive always liked you! I recall you confessing to blocking me in a thread quite a while back, and i remember being so confused by that! I'd always appreciated you and I thought we'd always gotten on pretty well. I think we even had a little chuckle about that, if I recall correctly.

    Earlier in this thread Autumn made the distinction between authentic kindness and what we normally call "nice". Kindness is an admirable virtue. I like treating people kindly and I like being treated kindly in return.

    Authentic kindness doesn't make anyone a beta anything. It's not a weakness. It's an obvious strength.

    People who are often excessively nice on the other hand, are usually doing it to cover up some deep insecurity, or have some kind of agenda..conscious or otherwise.

    What part of this thread makes you think I'd accuse you of being a loser or a coward?

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mac (here)
    "..if you're harmless you're not virtuous, you're just harmless, you're like a rabbit; a rabbit isn't virtuous, it just can't do anything except get eaten. That's not virtuous. If you're a monster, and you don't act monstrously, then you're virtuous"

    ~ Jordan Peterson " "
    ........

    Hi Mike noticed you're quite an admirer of his work. Me too especially his work in the classrooms and most of (not all) what he stood for on the public stage, brave Man. His daughter let slip Mom was the real power in the family, Mom should write a book 8) . I don't know enough about him to endorse him fully but you have to admire his efforts and intelligence whether you agree or not. Hope he recovers quickly, deffo a lively spark when on form. If only all teachers could spark inquiry like he can when he's firing right. His daughter has great potential too imo. GL to them as a family.

    Hey Mac

    i agree, i think Peterson's wife is the backbone of the family. i'd love to read her book if she wrote one.

    in the last year or so ive taken a keen interest in more intellectual pursuits, all inspired by Peterson. But i'm not an intellectual! I really have to strain to keep a thread in my head. my brain has become weak over the years due to neglect. i wish i could articulate like dennis or mark or bill, but i have a ways to go.

    this all represents for me a change in mental paradigm..moving from conspiracy and the paranormal to more tangible, utility oriented stuff. i will always love high strangeness and the paranormal and all that kind of stuff, but i just have to let it go for a while

    all those brilliant interviews Bill did in the camelot days let us all know something was very wrong with the world. that was a ground breaking revelation for some, and spirit soothing confirmation for others. the question for many of us after watching all those videos - sometimes 4 or 5 times over - was, well what now???

    i think i know the answer to that. and it doesn't lie in psychics or astrologists or alleged intuitive empaths or deep state insiders or whatever. it lies in critical thinking, and it lies in personal responsibility. i'm going to start a thread on it actually, and then i'll stop spamming the forum with my sh!t and go into hiding for a while


    Jayke, i've been doing a deep dive on fludd. awesome stuff dude! appreciate you bringing him to my attention
    Last edited by Mike; 21st February 2020 at 03:27.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Hi Praxis, there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.

    imagine being in a forced labor camp during stalinist russia, for example. imagine for a moment that someone is going to steal the very small bit of food you've acquired to feed yourself and some loved ones. imagine one of them might die if they don't get some nutrition. well now you've got a situation on your hands, don't you?

    or imagine an intruder has broken into your home and is about to harm someone you love.

    so forth.

    you may just have to be violent to remedy the situation. you may even have to kill someone. you'll have to conjure your inner monster to do so. if you haven't integrated your shadow/inner monster, you won't be able to act!

    of course there are other less morally justifiable situations in which your inner monster may show up. i gave the example of nazi germany. you may sit there and tell me you would have been a hero in that situation, and maybe you're right. i can't be sure. but history would strongly suggest otherwise

    look, it's a jungian concept. i can't explain it any better. if you want to know more, i'd suggest googling "jungian shadow"
    Last edited by Mike; 21st February 2020 at 03:50.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    If being in the Illuminati includes having a shoddy laptop, a 20 year old truck and no cash then maybe I am indeed part of the Illuminati.

    Joking aside, agreed 100%. One could write a book on this but you summed it up nicely. I think if people were born with all the right answers so that when at the end of their days history looks back at that person and says they're great, then people would make better decisions. Nobody wants history to look back at them and think of them as a cog in the wheel of the epitome of evil.

    Sort of like a "He who is without sin cast the first stone" kinda thing.

    My favorite part from your post
    Quote We have no idea what it's like to have all that power.
    THANK YOU. Or to be in that position in general with all it entails. This doc came to mind though:
    Just as every cop is a criminal
    And all the sinners saints

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.
    using (cosmo)ethics approach you can rationalize this paradox, by changing the paradigm through the layers where one individual are experiencing. Try to understand that this approach means be relative of the layers of the consciousness experiencing. Follow as an example of approach:

    survival of species ( harm someone you love )
    survival of DNA lineage (one harm your childs )
    survival of individuals ( one steal a bit of food )

    ethical approach dont use moral paradox to judge reactions (as consequences), because it know (are aware) that each layer are "Relative". That's the Point!

    jungian shadow is a very nice name, because these (sub)conscious layers are related to the sub abdominal brain, and not to the brain where "awareness are located", so technically, these instincts can be understood as a shadow.

    the mind control process (aka brainwash) aim to blind the (individual) brain to put on instinct mode of consciousness, because throught that (unaware) way, the reaction to "stimuli" its not much inteligent, as to say.

    Human monstrosity is ethically called Human Cretinism (mere euphemism). Philosophically, was said there are only two things that humanity does not know the real size: One is the size of the Universe, and another is Human Cretinism.

    The cretinism of the powers is govern people by ignorance and not by intelligence (as primary causes). They decide the fate of people they govern by instinct, so the people suffers the consequences to allow these powers choosing their fate. (this is also a evolutionary paradox of consciousness, in terms of civilization, pacification, etc).
    Last edited by RogeRio; 21st February 2020 at 15:14.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Hi Praxis, there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.
    Yes, and I agree that the example of Nazi Germany that you used does indeed show that people can be whipped into a furher over xenophobia and otherization of the out group.
    However, this seems to break with the spirit of your OP which I took be to a general discussion about mass consciousness. I thought we clarified this in post #26.

    Which by the way is why I call out the policies I disagree with on the regular. I am seeing something, like holding children in cages and separating them from their families for being poor and brown, and then saying something. Then I am also saying that if you support the person DIRECTLY responsible for this policy(doesnt matter that Obama started it, it matters that Trump continues and Expands it, like he did with Guantanamo Bay Gulag) that you are more morally cupable than myself for this policy.

    Yes I am responsible for the American Empire in that I am economically productive in that state and therefore passively support it. But If you support and vote for the politician that makes the empire, then you are worse than other citizens.

    Yes the average german is responsible, but the nazi party members are more responsible. The former is passive responsibility which I admit we all share as citizens. The second is Active which not all of us do. If you support Trump, Obama, Bush ,Reagan, or Nixon, then you are actively responsible.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    imagine being in a forced labor camp during stalinist russia, for example. imagine for a moment that someone is going to steal the very small bit of food you've acquired to feed yourself and some loved ones. imagine one of them might die if they don't get some nutrition. well now you've got a situation on your hands, don't you?
    This is not an action but rather a reaction.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    or imagine an intruder has broken into your home and is about to harm someone you love.

    so forth.
    This is a reaction and not action like the previous example as well.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    you may just have to be violent to remedy the situation. you may even have to kill someone. you'll have to conjure your inner monster to do so. if you haven't integrated your shadow/inner monster, you won't be able to act!
    More reactions and not actions.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    of course there are other less morally justifiable situations in which your inner monster may show up. i gave the example of nazi germany. you may sit there and tell me you would have been a hero in that situation, and maybe you're right. i can't be sure. but history would strongly suggest otherwise

    look, it's a jungian concept. i can't explain it any better. if you want to know more, i'd suggest googling "jungian shadow"
    I would argue that my actions show that I would be the hero. Am I not constantly asking for the things I want? Am I not constantly criticizing Public Policy I find reprehensible? Most people on here dislike me because of this. Notice the thanks, i get very few and it is certain people that do it. Most people do not like that I active speak against Afghanistan Occupation, Iraq Occupation, JFK files not being released, 9-11 not being investigated again(especially with a New York real estate dude as the president who has the credibility to cast doubt to enough of his base to get that going but WOOPS his ****ing personal lawyer was the mayor that help cover that up https://www.corbettreport.com/911-su...rudy-giuliani/) I am sorry, You can say that I need to take a break but literally Rudy Guilanni is Trumps personal lawyer. If you cant see how that makes Trump a bad person . . .

    I am doing every action I can to try and accomplish the change I want to see.

    What your argument seems to do is give people an easy excuse for it happening.

    Notice how all of your hypotheticals rely on an aggressor forcing a reaction upon you? You are giving a mode of reaction not action and I think that is telling.

    Would you mind creating an active situation that creates the same outcome?
    Last edited by Praxis; 21st February 2020 at 16:26.

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    I would argue that my actions show that I would be the hero. Am I not constantly asking for the things I want? Am I not constantly criticizing Public Policy I find reprehensible? Most people on here dislike me because of this. Notice the thanks, i get very few and it is certain people that do it.
    I would bet my house this has nothing to do with your views and everything to do with how you convey them.
    Just as every cop is a criminal
    And all the sinners saints

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    Default Re: You Are The Illuminati

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history...
    Having just watched the documentary, The Power Principle, again, the concept of "facing and owning your Jungian shadow" and "the appropriate way to view history" are really vastly different topics and related primarily by semantics and bad logic.

    You are basically concluding that virtually all of us, all of humanity, have the same capacity as the monsters who have created the greed, power, and fear-based actual history, and that because we have never held that power and wealth, we have no idea how we would behave, which you conclude would therefore be monstrously. False corollary, false equivalency, and false conclusions in the argument. It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them. Of course every single Democrat and Republican in the US that gains high office is corrupt or corruptible - they were selected for that trait, and their acquiescence to it. It's not human nature that is being exploited but rather the deliberate distillation of the evil outliers, the most despicable, the sociopaths, the gangsters, into Empire's gang.

    Being cowered and brainwashed into submission by overlords into following their orders as a common outcome may be true, but it's a false leap of logic to say that this means that the brainwashed masses have thus become equivalent in any way to the evil overlords.

    The "Illuminati" (globalists, new world order, etc. etc.) is the affiliation of society's outliers, the most despicable, the most evil, the most depraved, the greediest, the most power hungry, the sociopaths, the worst gangsters. Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group. That is a false assumption, a fantasy projection. It's like saying that everyone who simply holds a basketball has the capacity to be Michael Jordan, or that everyone that owns a refrigerator has the capacity to be Jeffrey Dahmer.


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