You Are The Illuminati

[Mike]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history...

Having just watched the documentary, The Power Principle, again, the concept of "facing and owning your Jungian shadow" and "the appropriate way to view history" are really vastly different topics and related primarily by semantics and bad logic.

You are basically concluding that virtually all of us, all of humanity, have the same capacity as the monsters who have created the greed, power, and fear-based actual history, and that because we have never held that power and wealth, we have no idea how we would behave, which you conclude would therefore be monstrously. False corollary, false equivalency, and false conclusions in the argument. It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them. Of course every single Democrat and Republican in the US that gains high office is corrupt or corruptible - they were selected for that trait, and their acquiescence to it. It's not human nature that is being exploited but rather the deliberate distillation of the evil outliers, the most despicable, the sociopaths, the gangsters, into Empire's gang.

Being cowered and brainwashed into submission by overlords into following their orders as a common outcome may be true, but it's a false leap of logic to say that this means that the brainwashed masses have thus become equivalent in any way to the evil overlords.

The "Illuminati" (globalists, new world order, etc. etc.) is the affiliation of society's outliers, the most despicable, the most evil, the most depraved, the greediest, the most power hungry, the sociopaths, the worst gangsters. Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group. That is a false assumption, a fantasy projection. It's like saying that everyone who simply holds a basketball has the capacity to be Michael Jordan, or that everyone that owns a refrigerator has the capacity to be Jeffrey Dahmer.

It sounds like you've been hanging out with Praxis

The thread title, admittedly, is click bait'ish.

Some statements I've made in the thread are deliberately aggressive and button pushing

But what I really intended was an intellectual exercise. I wanted people to consider, just for moment, that they're not necessarily as different from their oppressors as they'd like to believe.

Of course I can't say, with 100% certainty, what anyone here would do in some of the compromising situations I've listed. And maybe my nazi/illuminatti analogy isn't a perfect one. But history would suggest that most of us would not behave like we'd like to believe we would.

Try to see the spirit of the thread Denno. You're making it needlessly complicated.

And I don't view humanity as the helpless playthings of the "overlords". I don't think that's productive. It takes personal responsibility out of the equation. I'll write about all that in my next annoying thread, coming to a theatre near you soon.

[Sarah Rainsong]

I do think people are capable of doing horrible things, but nearly all won't do them without provocation and without intense psychological repercussions.

Whoever commented above about reactions vs actions made a very good point. Examining our shadow helps us to act instead of react, helps us to avoid being coerced or manipulated or from just making wrong choices.

It helps to ask this sort of question on a personal level, for self examination, but beyond that, I'm not sure it really serves much purpose.

Once you move beyond personal and into society at large, I think the better question is why do people have to choose?

[Mike]

Posted by rainsong (here)
I do think people are capable of doing horrible things, but nearly all won't do them without provocation and without intense psychological repercussions.

Whoever commented above about reactions vs actions made a very good point. Examining our shadow helps us to act instead of react, helps us to avoid being coerced or manipulated or from just making wrong choices.

It helps to ask this sort of question on a personal level, for self examination, but beyond that, I'm not sure it really serves much purpose.

Once you move beyond personal and into society at large, I think the better question is why do people have to choose?

very well said.

the whole point of integrating the shadow is so that it doesn't sneak up on you. if you've dealt with that side of you that is inherently capable of evil, it significantly lowers the chances that you might do something horrifying when presented with the opportunity to do so.

[Mike]

Praxis, almost all actions are reactions to something. it's circular, and in that way they're the same, and everything i've said still applies.

Hitler's actions didn't begin in a sterile bubble. He was reacting to something that he deemed unacceptable.

it's all situational, you're right. but i don't understand your point

everyone has a capacity for evil. some might express it violently in a simple traffic incident. it might take someone else to really and truly be pushed to their moral limits to eventually express it. if you've acquainted yourself with your inner monster and you know all it's mechanisms, you are much better prepared to deal with it, and you likely won't be that guy who shoots someone because they cut you off in traffic. and if you've really done the shadow work earnestly and with dedication, maybe you would even be that guy at the concentration camp that holds it all together and doesn't compromise his morals when everyone around him is.

[avid]

Equating with one standing on a bug, oops, wrong bug, no matter 🙄🙄

[Mike]

Posted by RogeRio (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
there are certain situations in which we're all capable of being a monster.

using (cosmo)ethics approach you can rationalize this paradox, by changing the paradigm through the layers where one individual are experiencing. Try to understand that this approach means be relative of the layers of the consciousness experiencing. Follow as an example of approach:

survival of species ( harm someone you love )
survival of DNA lineage (one harm your childs )
survival of individuals ( one steal a bit of food )

ethical approach dont use moral paradox to judge reactions (as consequences), because it know (are aware) that each layer are "Relative". That's the Point!

jungian shadow is a very nice name, because these (sub)conscious layers are related to the sub abdominal brain, and not to the brain where "awareness are located", so technically, these instincts can be understood as a shadow.

the mind control process (aka brainwash) aim to blind the (individual) brain to put on instinct mode of consciousness, because throught that (unaware) way, the reaction to "stimuli" its not much inteligent, as to say.

Human monstrosity is ethically called Human Cretinism (mere euphemism). Philosophically, was said there are only two things that humanity does not know the real size: One is the size of the Universe, and another is Human Cretinism.

The cretinism of the powers is govern people by ignorance and not by intelligence (as primary causes). They decide the fate of people they govern by instinct, so the people suffers the consequences to allow these powers choosing their fate. (this is also a evolutionary paradox of consciousness, in terms of civilization, pacification, etc).

you may just be saying something truly brilliant here, but i have to confess to not understanding a word of it

this may be more my fault then yours. i'm not sure.

i know english isn't your first language, and i want to say first that i'm impressed with everyone that is bilingual. i took 4 years of spanish and i can't say anything except to request to use the bathroom. so anyone that has taken the time and effort to learn multiple languages is a world beater in my book.

i would suggest trying to keep it pretty simple, with short declarative statements. i really want to understand you. i feel like you have loads of knowledge to share

[Mac]

Mike,
Don't be hard on yourself 8) . Nothing wrong with enthusiasm, and putting all your J P's thoughts in one thread might be a a good idea imo, I'd read it. I hope he gets well soon and goes after big pharma now he has direct experience of the insanity of some of it.

[TomKat]

Speaking of the shadow and the Illuminati reminds me of the Sabbateans, who supposedly embraced evil and treachery as a way of life. Perhaps they were originally inspired by the realization that you have to embrace darkness to erase it (although they reportedly weren't interested in erasing anything).

The shadow is mostly mental copies of one's oppressors glued together by one's own pain and spent life force. A human, being basically "good" or "light," will erase his shadow by thoroughly embracing and inspecting every nook and cranny of it. Someone could, upon uncovering a subconscious impulse toward depravity, embrace and inhabit the feeling thoroughly, like a method actor. At some point that dark energy would dissolve and they might even realize that it came from someone else, or an inaccurate idea of someone else. They would be on the road Home, to God.

But the Illuminati are travelling the other direction on that road, and would rather commit acts of depravity or, better, encourage young people to lead lives of depravity -- hence Hollywood and other social programmers.

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I was listening to a lecture today about the appropriate way to view history...

Having just watched the documentary, The Power Principle, again, the concept of "facing and owning your Jungian shadow" and "the appropriate way to view history" are really vastly different topics and related primarily by semantics and bad logic.

You are basically concluding that virtually all of us, all of humanity, have the same capacity as the monsters who have created the greed, power, and fear-based actual history, and that because we have never held that power and wealth, we have no idea how we would behave, which you conclude would therefore be monstrously. False corollary, false equivalency, and false conclusions in the argument. It's a similar argument to the one that says that no matter who gets into positions of power, they will become corrupt, because power corrupts all. It completely ignores the engineered system of the actual monsters in power controlling the mechanism to make sure that all the new faces in their organization are of like mind to them. Of course every single Democrat and Republican in the US that gains high office is corrupt or corruptible - they were selected for that trait, and their acquiescence to it. It's not human nature that is being exploited but rather the deliberate distillation of the evil outliers, the most despicable, the sociopaths, the gangsters, into Empire's gang.

Being cowered and brainwashed into submission by overlords into following their orders as a common outcome may be true, but it's a false leap of logic to say that this means that the brainwashed masses have thus become equivalent in any way to the evil overlords.

The "Illuminati" (globalists, new world order, etc. etc.) is the affiliation of society's outliers, the most despicable, the most evil, the most depraved, the greediest, the most power hungry, the sociopaths, the worst gangsters. Just having a "jungian shadow" doesn't put us in that group. That is a false assumption, a fantasy projection. It's like saying that everyone who simply holds a basketball has the capacity to be Michael Jordan, or that everyone that owns a refrigerator has the capacity to be Jeffrey Dahmer.

Posted by Mike (here)
It sounds like you've been hanging out with Praxis

I'd be honored to hang out with the guy with the moniker 'praxis' (I know his name, but don't know that he wants it used publicly. We've had a few communications 'off camera' and my heart "saw" his heart - yeah, an "Avatar" reference.) He a good man with a big heart. What some call, heart-centered. I'm 65 years old and have tempered my emotional reactions a bit more (because I saw it wasn't effective), and he does have a different style than I do, but he's not a punchline of a joke. If you really want an intellectual conversation, keep it intellectual. You sidestepped every point I made. I wanted to help bring the thread out of the blended topics that have been presented and try to show that you are making some logical fallacies. If you want to get on the debate team, you have to avoid logical fallacies that weaken or destroy your argument.

Posted by Mike (here)
The thread title, admittedly, is click bait'ish.

Yes, it is. I have big respect for you as a person, which is why I brushed past the title and tried to dive into the context.

Posted by Mike (here)
Some statements I've made in the thread are deliberately aggressive and button pushing

Well, if you want a catfight, you've got the formula. If you want an intellectual discussion, avoid emotion and stick with intellect. That does not mean dry and boring by the way, and you are brilliant with wit, humor, and comedic timing, which can be very effective tools in an intellectual discussion. "Use the Force, Luke!" (Use your skull-cracking humor as a tool, not as a weapon.)

Posted by Mike (here)
But what I really intended was an intellectual exercise. I wanted people to consider, just for moment, that they're not necessarily as different from their oppressors as they'd like to believe.

That's a lot gentler than insisting that everyone is inherently evil (and maybe inherently good too, you didn't specify that.)

Posted by Mike (here)
Of course I can't say, with 100% certainty, what anyone here would do in some of the compromising situations I've listed. And maybe my nazi/illuminatti analogy isn't a perfect one. But history would suggest that most of us would not behave like we'd like to believe we would.

Again, much gentler (and, in my opinion, sadly true - but maybe not for the reason in your argument.)

Posted by Mike (here)
Try to see the spirit of the thread Denno. You're making it needlessly complicated.

As I pointed out, the thread went in two directions:
1.) most humans likely will follow heinous orders [when not doing so will get them gravely harmed or killed.]
To me, this is a good point, and an interesting discussion. (Note I immediately jumped into the question of how much of it has to do with programming/brainwashing (let's add fear for your own life), and how much of it has to do with truly innate evil - depraved indifference/sociopathy as innate qualities.

2.)everyone is evil, beneath the surface, and if you do not accept then confront this evil, you will likely perform evil
This is far beyond accepting that we all have a "shadow"/some "darkness" within us, and jumps all the way to evil. Here's where you jumped the shark, Fonzie. You're not distinguishing the sociopath from the rest of humanity. A small percentage of people have this psychological anomaly (and several articles I've read - one from a person diagnosed as sociopathic - say that even being a sociopath doesn't necessarily mean that the person acts out in harmful ways to others. You know, the sociopath sitting on the couch.) So, you made a bold statement that I recognize as incorrect, illogical, and the statement (a conflation of the other topic in the thread) was offered without any proof.

So, I believe it was you that made it complicated, by blending two topics (one I have to agree with; one I don't.)

Posted by Mike (here)
And I don't view humanity as the helpless playthings of the "overlords". I don't think that's productive. It takes personal responsibility out of the equation. I'll write about all that in my next annoying thread, coming to a theatre near you soon.

You're right that we're not helpless - although I'd really really appreciate if someone comes up with a serviceable idea to deprogram our brainwashing, block our fear responses, and break free of the overlords. You put overlords in quotes, and if that means what I suspect it means, you are ignorant that there really is a class of malevolent overlords that literally control and own most of the world, or maybe don't believe they are evil, as in "It's just business. Nothing personal."

Are you interested in discovering who some of these evil mother****er are, and the actual history of their depravity? Then, I strongly recommend that you watch the powerful documentary that I have posted and cross-posted about over the last couple of days. I believe that you'll recognize that the sociopathy/psychopathy expressed by these beings is not something in Mike's shadow, or the vast vast majority of mankind. Like I said before, the capacity to exhibit instantaneous violence is one thing, the capacity, willingness, and desire to inflict torture and commit genocide - for money and power - is quite something else.

Also, keep your eyes open during the documentary, and see if you notice any actual victims of the monstrous, cold-blooded, psychopathy, and see if you'd describe them as pretending to be helpless, and/or if they are actually guilty of bringing it on themselves.

[Innocent Warrior]

Hi, Mike.

I explored this idea by putting myself in the position of the Illuminati, the primary example that you presented, and came to precisely the same conclusion as Dennis. It actually highlighted how different we are. They barely live in the same reality we do and are programmed to an insane degree.

I get what you’re saying to Dennis and Praxis about missing the point but it’s inevitable because the example you’ve used distracts from the intellectual exercise. Their views aren’t distracting from it, they’re pointing out the distraction.

I hope I’m not annoying you because my intent is to help clear up the distraction so the discussion can progress more along the lines of the intended exercise, which is a very powerful one due to how much it reveals about oneself (it’s excellent). I’m also hoping the discussion can really dig into the whole concept of shadow work, I’m really interested in reading about how individuals go about it, what it looks like for them and the effects they’ve observed, Peterpam’s post being a brilliant example. It would also be fascinating to see the differences and any universals that arise.

Putting your message more simply, I see it like this. Human beings are highly programmable, it’s necessary to fully comprehend this and examine oneself honestly in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes as those whom you see as your oppressors. We’re inclined to think of ourselves as the heroes, however, given precisely the same conditions, we’d be no different and denying that only ensures we’re more at risk of being the villain. Put yourself in the shoes of the villain, an honest exploration and examination of that is a brilliant way to put oneself to the test, and very revealing in multiple ways.

That could be unpacked for days, but that’s my understanding of the heart of what you’re saying. Correct me if I’m wrong.

*****

My reply... My greatest oppressor is myself. I do shadow work in two primary ways; self observation and dream analysis.

Self observation. I am unable to separate the spiritual from the temporal, I cannot put one aside to focus on the other, rather I seek to harmonise them. Another way of putting it is I reprogram my temporal according to my HS, aligning the temporal with the spiritual in the process. This is like yanking a wild tiger by the tail, my ego will fight this process to the bitter end, whatever that turns out to be. During the course of my days I am almost ceaselessly confronted by my shadow, I need not seek it and my task is to hold my own despite it, shadow work is required if I’m to make any ground.

Dreams. I often have dreams that, once fully processed, reveal to me aspects of my shadow that are in the way of my goals.

[Mike]

Dennis, brother...I will watch your documentary and respond to all your points...in that order. But not now, because I just wrote a monolithic thing on the racism thread and my heart's just not into it at the moment.

P.S. no matter how much we may disagree, remember: Fonzie still loves you

[Mac]

Something you typed got me thinking re the critical thinking and personal responsibility. J Peterson is an admirer of Carl Jung, where did Jung get his brilliant insights on the human condition. Search Jung the "mystic" I hate that word but there ya go. Also have you heard Peterson on the subject of mysticism and dreams. In fact I can't think of a historical giant who didn't experience the ( insert..oh I don't know )
Perhaps that's the true meaning of illuminati before it was corrupted. Again I agree though, 8) for us mere mortals personal responsibility and trying not to be stupid is the way to go.

edit]
why I didn't put critical thinking.. https://www.criticalthinking.org/pag...l-thinking/766https://www.criticalthinking.org/pag...l-thinking/766

Very hard to do unless you have all the facts. All we can do is work with where we are and to be a true critical thinker takes serious discipline and practice imo. Bloody insomnia tonight so bored. My lovely wife has stopped snoring, so may get off now.

[Mike]

ok Denno here ya go..

- re Praxis: Yes, I made a joke, but I wasn't saying anything disrespectful about Praxis. Or you. It's just that you both seem to be misunderstanding me.

- I didn't deliberately sidestep your points to be a d!ck or anything. It's just that i've explained myself multiple times and in a multitude of ways, and repeating it all again seemed redundant.

- In order for threads to have life and juice, imo they need to be right at the border of chaos and order, trending slightly towards order. I don't want anyone to be too comfortable or to feel too safe. That's the death of intellectual discussion. I don't want them to be too horrified either. It's a balance, and some aggression and button pushing are effective in achieving that balance. I invite some emotion. This thread is crackling with energy. Just consider for a moment how you feel while you're posting on it. Haven't you felt alive debating this stuff? ..Challenged? ..Excited about articulating your position? It's because of the way it's constructed. "..Luuuke, you're enjoying the dark side of the force...search your feelings(shadow) and you will see it to be true.."

- Ever hear of the Zimbardo prison experiment? https://www.simplypsychology.org/zimbardo.html

"...it was a social psychological study in which college students became prisoners or guards in a simulated prison environment. However, mistreatment of prisoners escalated so alarmingly that principal investigator Philip Zimbardo was forced to terminate the experiment after only 6 days..."

The student guards, seemingly normal and decent people, became quite sinister in 6 bloody days. That's all it took. And they weren't selected by the overlords. They weren't political puppets.

- I didn't say everyone was inherently evil. Or good. the point is that everyone has the potential for the greatest of good and the evilest of evil. There is an inner sociopath in all of us, in my opinion. There is a spectrum of potential that exists in all of us...with the extreme good at one end and the extreme bad at the other. The only difference between you and the sociopath is the difference of space that exists between the two of you at any given point in time on the spectrum. That's how I see it anyway. And I think that's how Jung saw it.

There are several factors involved in that distance. One being situational. The outside circumstances. It may just be that person B's life was excruciatingly brutal, and person A's life was somewhat easy by comparison. Rachel gave the example of putting herself in the shoes of an illuminati member. It's a good start when doing shadow work, but without actually being an illuminatti member we don't really know what we'd do in that situation or how we'd turn out as adults having been exposed to all the programming. You may sit there and tell me you'd be an angel after that, but I doubt it. Chances are you'd be just as vicious and sinister and unfeeling as the worst of them.

The other factor involved is personal responsibility. If you're trending away from the bad side of the spectrum, it's likely because you have practiced doing good things, and having done them, have developed the discipline and virtue to continue doing them. It's all the thousands of micro and macro decisions we make on a daily/monthly/yearly basis that place where we are on that spectrum at any given point in time. A sociopath developes poor habits early (perhaps his father was absent, perhaps he was poor and fell into gang life, or perhaps he just had poor discipline) which build and multiply over time, and as he becomes more desensitized to his deeds, that desensitazation pushes him closer and closer to the sociopath side of the spectrum.

Another factor is genetics. Some people are just born f#cked up, lets face it. It doesn't totally excuse them from their personal responsibility, but their challenge is inherently more difficult than a "normal" person. They've got a bit of a head start in the sociopath direction, and will have to work a little harder to avoid it.

So there's several factors that determine one's position on the spectrum: bad outward circumstances, conditioning, genetics, and personal responsibility. Several are likely in play when it comes to the sociopath.

The probability of you, Dennis Leahy, right now doing something sociopathic is likely close to zero. But its not because your good/evil spectrum has changed in any way, or because it's any different than a sociopaths..it's because A) the way you've lived your life has placed you far away from that possibility from ever occurring. B) it must be said that you were fortunate enough to not have been born into an illuminati family, and have therefore avoided all that horrific programming. C) it doesn't appear to me that you have any genetic issues that would cause you to trend in that direction.

- if you cultivate virtue and practice personal responsibility, and do sufficent shadow work, you might have the moral fortitude to not become a Nazi, or not become a full blown illuminatti practicioner...no matter what your outward circumstances or conditioning. So there is hope for even the unluckiest of us. And that is my answer on how to deal with the current situation. It's also much more than that, and I'll elaborate in my next thread

- I have distinguished the sociopath from the rest of society, just not in the way you might maybe. It's all described in the paragraphs above

- I'm not necessarily saying that the brainwashed masses are the equivalent of the overlords. But I'm saying that under the right circumstances and right stressors, they could be. As I understand it, many of those overlords had absolutely brutal childhoods, filled with sickening sexual abuse, relentless mind tampering, and all kinds of trauma in between. Anyone having endured that would have likely wound up in a similar situation. Anyone...

..and that, in a nutshell, is the point of the thread.

I know I said I'd watch the video first, but like I pm'd you, there are several with the same title and I want to make sure I'm watching the right one.

Let me know if i've missed anything. And I want to emphasize that these are mostly my opinions. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, i'm simply disagreeing with you, respectfully. It may just be that you're right and the thread is a little disjointed, but I still think it's pretty coherent. The various ideas all mesh ultimately.

- I'm saying that under the right circumstances anyone could have become what our overlords are. I gave the example of Nazi Germany as a historical reference point. I suggested we all view ourselves as potential perpetrators when viewing history, which is another way of saying we should all acknowledge our shadow. If we do that, cultivate virtue, and embrace personal responsibility, we may just give ourselves the chance to not fall victim to atrocity when it is presented to us. I can't summarize it any more succinctly than that, or make it any clearer.

[Gracy]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
I believe that you'll recognize that the sociopathy/psychopathy expressed by these beings is not something in Mike's shadow, or the vast vast majority of mankind. Like I said before, the capacity to exhibit instantaneous violence is one thing, the capacity, willingness, and desire to inflict torture and commit genocide - for money and power - is quite something else.

That exact thought occurred to me last evening while contemplating this fine thread Dennis.

Having already experienced the moment, I know exactly what it's like to actually become my shadow.

I wrote about in in a thread I started some time ago. Long story short we used to have this horrible neighbor who was a very nasty drunk, my baby boy at the time made the "mistake" of daring chase a ball into his back yard, and that son of a bitch came stumbling out of his house going after him.

Skinny lil me grabbed a sizeable tree branch that happened to be laying there, flew over that fence, and confronted him with it. I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he so much as laid a hand on my child I wasn't just going to hit him with that stick, I was going to kill him with it. And it was going to be over with very quickly! Staring eye to eye, I knew it, he knew it, and he wisely went back into his house rather than test mama bear.

Point being here I know I'm capable of violence, enough to even kill someone on the spot if required, but I would NEVER draw it out, torture, or do it for any kind of gain. *Only for defensive purposes*.

And that's imo one of the main differences here between the average persons shadow side, and a controlling psychopath.

[Caliban]

Shadows are good. They give you a respite.

Illuminati not good. They be blinded by the light.

[Dennis Leahy]

Mike, thanks very much for your willingness to view the documentary that I recommended (http://metanoia-films.org/the-power-principle/ , and then click on Watch Online text link on the right)

You'll see real sociopaths/psychopaths and their victims in that film. Note that sociopathy (at least from my understanding), is not really something that can be "caught", like cooties or COVD-19 - it's more like being gay (though there are people that erroneously also believe that someone can "become gay" by hanging out with gay people.) (I'm using that example rather than "having green eyes" because no one thinks that having green eyes can be inculcated into another person.)

I know we have a thread or two on recognizing and maybe dealing with sociopathy. Not sure how great a resource that is or if it would hold weight with you, but check into some trusted scientific source and read about sociopathy. Growing up surrounded by sociopaths, and even sociopaths that are deliberately trying to get a person to conform to and act like them - and they may succeed with that - doesn't mean they have actually altered the other person's brain to be clinically a sociopath. We're really not all sociopaths, or all evil, for that matter, even if it is true that people's behaviors can be shaped and manipulated - and that we have subconscious "shadow." If Jung (or Jordan Peterson, or others who have studied the human mind) insists that we really are all sociopaths deep down, then I'd remind us not to make that logical fallacy, "deferring to a higher authority." There are people who insist that the Earth and the entire Universe were created in 7 days, because God said so (as an example of deferring to a higher authority.) Did someone that you trust say that we are all (or all have a capacity to be) sociopaths, or is that a conclusion that you have drawn?

I have heard about the Stanford prison experiment (but didn't remember Zimbardo's name.) Could another conclusion be drawn that the people who were assigned the role of "guard" were really exhibiting their own understanding of what a prison guard's mind is like - in other words, play acting? If you were in an experiment, and were told that your role was to be a military drone bomber operator, or a cop that beat people to death with his nightstick, you wouldn't play that role by setting up a lemonade stand or picking bouquets of flowers. From the article you posted a link to: "Guards were instructed to do whatever they thought was necessary to maintain law and order in the prison and to command the respect of the prisoners." Plus, these were college-age kids, 18 to 21, which I don't believe we can extrapolate to represent "human nature."

[Mike]

it may just be that i have a thing or 2 to learn about sociopathy. everything ive written here is based on my current understanding, opinion, and intuition...all heavily based on my reading of jung and nietszche, and listening to a sh!tload of jordan peterson. maybe i'm off by more than a few degrees. maybe i've got them wrong in some ways. maybe i'm connecting some wayward dots...but as of right now i feel pretty comfortable with what i'm saying

gonna watch that video in it's entirety and report back here. if i have to eat some crow, i will eat it brother. 100%.

[Mike]

Posted by Gracy May (here)

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
I believe that you'll recognize that the sociopathy/psychopathy expressed by these beings is not something in Mike's shadow, or the vast vast majority of mankind. Like I said before, the capacity to exhibit instantaneous violence is one thing, the capacity, willingness, and desire to inflict torture and commit genocide - for money and power - is quite something else.

That exact thought occurred to me last evening while contemplating this fine thread Dennis.

Having already experienced the moment, I know exactly what it's like to actually become my shadow.

I wrote about in in a thread I started some time ago. Long story short we used to have this horrible neighbor who was a very nasty drunk, my baby boy at the time made the "mistake" of daring chase a ball into his back yard, and that son of a bitch came stumbling out of his house going after him.

Skinny lil me grabbed a sizeable tree branch that happened to be laying there, flew over that fence, and confronted him with it. I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he so much as laid a hand on my child I wasn't just going to hit him with that stick, I was going to kill him with it. And it was going to be over with very quickly! Staring eye to eye, I knew it, he knew it, and he wisely went back into his house rather than test mama bear.

Point being here I know I'm capable of violence, enough to even kill someone on the spot if required, but I would NEVER draw it out, torture, or do it for any kind of gain. *Only for defensive purposes*.

And that's imo one of the main differences here between the average persons shadow side, and a controlling psychopath.

thanks Gracy May. appreciate you sharing that here!

i agree with your conclusion there, mostly.

it this current moment, right now, your mentality of violence for defensive purposes only separates you from a controlling sociopath. that's true! and that could be said of probably most everyone here. we're all fundamentally good people.

but, what i'm throwing into the equation is this: what if you had been raised in one of those hideous generational illuminati families? what if you'd endured all that ritual abuse and mind tampering? might you have become a sociopath then?

that's an extreme example. the mafia assassin, richard kuklinsky was beaten mercilessly by his drunk father when he was a boy. that was the birth of his sociopathy.

i don't know enough about hitler to speak as any kind of authority, but i believe the frustration from his failed/repressed artistic aspirations was the genesis of his sociopathy.

everyone's trigger is different it appears, and there are a number of factors involved in all of it..which ive tried to explain in my response to Dennis. it's quite complex...because not everyone who gets beaten by their father or has their artistic aspirations squelched becomes a sociopath of course

it's all pretty layered imo

[Mike]

...people stop feeling their emotions in response to too much pain.

everyone has a breaking point, even the best of us. when we hit it, we go numb. if one gets bombarded with too much trauma, the system gets overloaded and that numbness becomes terminal. this can result in sociopathy - someone who is no longer feeling any empathy whatsoever.

i don't think any of us are immune. some are likely born with a higher probability of it happening with maybe a minimum amount of trauma. but we all have the potential, imo

[Orph]

Posted by Mike (here)

... what if you had been raised in one of those hideous generational illuminati families? what if you'd endured all that ritual abuse and mind tampering? might you have become a sociopath then?

Under those conditions then perhaps yes, maybe I would've become a sadistic killer. But would that be the "real" me? I remember once, a long time ago, when I was just a kid, I was watching a nature show on TV. I don't remember it specifically, but 2 animals were fighting or something. Anyway, this was "part of nature" so to speak, and not human inflicted pain. But I couldn't bear to see the "suffering". I had to get up and leave the room.

Even now, I'll have to change the channel when I see something like that. (I'm quite sure there is some unresolved inner issue's that I need to deal with on some level, but that's another topic). Anyway, my point is, in the context of this discussion, I'm pretty sure I would never be a psychopath. Not of my own volition anyway. But as you say, Mike, perhaps I might have become one if I were born into the right circumstances. Then again, perhaps I would've been too weak willed to become a killer. So, I guess I'll just leave the answer as -- it's a possibility.