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Thread: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    I'd like for us to examine the spectrum of behaviors that would fit between the extremes of what has recently been called "social justice warrior" (sjw, for short), and what seems to me to be the other end of that spectrum, that I would call "sociopathic depraved indifference."

    Somewhere between these two ends of the spectrum of behaviors (and motivations), there has to be a balance point. I invite anyone who thinks this is worth examining to offer your observations on this topic.

    From my perspective (admittedly, deliberately much closer to social justice warrior than sociopathic depraved indifference), humanity has been moved forward in a positive direction from some (now famous) people that certainly were focused on improving conditions for others (social), though the word 'justice' doesn't encompass enough of an explanation of their desired outcome as may really be applicable. In other words, their goal may not be well defined just as "justice", but is some sort of positive change benefiting others and not just themselves. I'd include such people as Jesus (even if you believe this is a mythical story), Siddhartha Gautama (the prince that walked away from royal privilege and self-realized as the first Buddha), Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Roger Casement, Eugene Debs, Charlie Perkins, the self-named "Water Protectors" at Standing Rock... Let's add Bill Ryan and Wade Frazier, for a little local flavor. (Please, not a debate on the these specific examples - that's not the point.)

    The other end of the spectrum (sociopaths exhibiting depraved indifference) is well represented by kings and queens, dictators, warlords, popes, and oligarchs, as well as some of their well-known henchmen. I could name specific politicians, but that will distract the intent of the thread.

    Is the defining characteristic of an "SJW" - the modern pejorative - phoniness? The term "virtue signaling" has been used to describe a behavior where a person expresses a viewpoint only in words but not deeds, pretending to care, or at best caring, but only from their own comfortable spot on the couch with no risk or real commitment. Is this your understanding of why SJW is at the end of the spectrum?

    Surely, humanity has benefited from real activists/"warriors" that were motivated by real compassion for others, and committed and sacrificed to try to assist the slaves, the imprisoned, the financially oppressed, "out group" members, aboriginal peoples and cultures, "lower" castes/classes, workers, marginalized people, and real victims of war and violence. Not to recognize this group of "warriors" is sort of a self-indictment into supporting sociopathic depraved indifference.

    There is the old adage of "give a man a fish feeds him for a day; teach a man to fish feeds him for life", and so sometimes "benefit others" could be misguided, depending on your perspective of "benefit" and the actual circumstances. A man literally starving to death needs the emergent addition of food, not a fishing lesson. To ignore his plight and walk away, saying that the man was unwilling to long-term save himself from starvation by somehow suspending the condition of starvation and focusing on fishing, is depraved indifference. ("Depraved indifference" is a legal term, but I feel it properly underscores that aspect of sociopathy. It is redundant to add it together with the word sociopathy, but focuses on that aspect.)

    There are some popular ideological memes that mock the SJW end of the spectrum, but fail to note the other end of the spectrum (sociopathy), and fail to expound on the healthy and laudable balance point (which, again in my perspective, is nowhere near sociopathy and nowhere near a position halfway between the extremes.)

    Your observations? With the wisdom you have gained in life, what behavior would you teach a child to emulate?


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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    I have advised my daughter on the true workings of this insane, unfair world, but I suggested she just observe and otherwise live her life like one of the droids - since only they have a decent chance of success. She knows all the tricks and double-speak because I taught it to her. She cannot be deceived, any more than can I. The rest, I admit to her, I don't know anything about. So I advise her don't live the life of the rebel, like me, because my life demonstrates that I did not figure it out, so know what I know but take your own path.

    She's way smarter than me so she has done just fine. Of course she had me to prime her, I had no one...

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    It might be a circle. not a spectrum. Where the two extremes join and unite is in the compulsion to enforce control and obedience on others — both individually and institutionally.

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    It might be a circle. not a spectrum. Where the two extremes join and unite is in the compulsion to enforce control and obedience on others — both individually and institutionally.
    An interesting observation, similar to how I graphically explain that the neoliberal <---> neoconservative "spectrum" can no longer be represented as ideological opposites, as was the case (on paper, and even then perhaps a deliberate illusion) between liberals <---> conservatives. The 2-dimensional line with endpoints in opposite directions had to be bent into a 3-dimensional hoop, now with the ends touching.

    However, often the endpoints of an examined spectrum of behavior are both negative, extremist, so it's not really surprising. That's why I'm curious to read people's views on where the healthy balance is in this spectrum. I'm guessing that upon examination, those that have been pointing out "SJW" behavior still do want individuals to be fighting against the agenda of the sociopathic individuals in power positions, rather than all hiding in the crowd of droids, as Ernie is suggesting, providing only acquiescence to the agenda of the ruling elite (who have shown themselves to be sociopathic.).

    You were willing to risk having your hands chopped off (the 'Charles' affair) by some self-declared global ruling elite (allow me to insert 'sociopaths'), to get a chance to influence them with your answers to their questions. Some snarky asshole might say you were 'virtue signaling' or being a grandstanding SJW in so doing. I would disagree, and see it as 'heroic' and not the behavior on either end of the spectrum being examined here.


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    UK Avalon Member Mac's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    I taught my children it's ok to be the only in a group that has a different opinion. I asked them to observe for themselves group think which could hamper them if they're not aware of it. Two of them are activists (girls) one does it via local politics the other through lifestyle choices and animal welfare. My boy can be a bugger but is as honest as the day is long on things that matter, good Dad to be, works hard you could trust him with your life.
    I wouldn't want them trying to make big waves before they've lived and to be honest doubt if many of the young could make waves without causing themselves harm. So my advice would be, be a friend,lighten peoples load when you can but avoid those that are personally driven and fueled by the wrong juice. Don't waste time trying to prove points, say your piece and if getting nowhere agree to disagree.
    Btw Dennis your list of people is very pick n mix random imo. It's ok saying the list is not the point but think about it, I'll not take that any further to respect your wishes. I'm with you though and share your frustration but what gives me hope is there's change happening. We might not see it because it's not our World anymore it belongs to the child being born now. Who knows what's to come it's pretty obvious to me the old way of doing business is in its last days. So I'd want children to emulate the greats who said sort yourself out and those you can help, by your own example. Easier said than done but beats the alternative but the young that manage it do make the right waves. I'm hopeful for the future and am a bit indifferent to certain aspects of life as I'm too busy sorting my own, and extended families obstacles that life throws up. You mentioned Wade Frazier, well I like his approach and he's quite indifferent to a lot of the clutter and angst and I think he's right in that regard. Doesn't mean he isn't passionate may mean through trial and adventure he's found the right perspective. No Hero trip there or martyrdom 8)
    In regards to sociopaths, sjw's psychological problems and what not, probably best left to professionals as some of the commentary on here at times is borderline obsessive and paranoid. You rarely meet true cases as they are usually leading Countries or way up the diseased food chain.
    As said, I understand your frustration but what's your plan of action, and can you get it going in your locale. I like your decentralization of power thoughts and I think that will happen eventually...hopefully. Thought I'd own the indifference thing as an exercise but the other traits you attach to it resemble very few people in reality. Cheers

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    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    It might be a circle. not a spectrum. Where the two extremes join and unite is in the compulsion to enforce control and obedience on others — both individually and institutionally.

    The circle model is useful, it tends to show the similarities between the apparent opposite sides. One thing they have in common is the behavior of turning peoples emotions into weapons, and turning groups against each other. I am trying to come up with a descriptive word for the bottom of the circle where people are cooperating, emotions are calmer, actions are more rational and helpful. Maybe uniting, vs dividing,power over others vs dealing with real needs first,personal desires second? That introduces a third dimension to our visual model/graph.

    I have done this visualization years a go where I tired to see a circle, and my mind kept on creating a break where the extremes seem to flip into each
    other. If we rotate our view to the side, we might see a vertical spiral, going up into the distance and down. Then the main dimension of measurement that makes sense is time,so we could lay the spiral on its side and see a sine curve that has risen and fallen over time.
    There are other mental tricks that I have done with this study of opposites, pendulums, and spirals but it is starting to hurt my brain. But the main question here is how to keep sight of what moves us ahead, and to a "higher" point than our previous behavior.


    John
    Last edited by johnf; 21st February 2020 at 01:03.
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    This is a great thread topic. A lot to unpack here.

    I'm all for remedying injustice and encouraging equity, so in spirit I'm actually with the sjw's in that sense...or at least the one's who are genuinely seeking honest reform and not power.

    The problem is in the word "injustice". And the word "equity".

    For some, sjw's especially, equity represents an across the board, militant uniformity that often defies logic and reason. Taken to the extreme, this creates what I'd call malevolent utopias. Stalinist Russia is an example. Mao's China. So forth.

    I started a thread recently about transgender women in female sports. That's one small example. But essentially it's using extreme tyranny to ensure that there are an equal number of women and men in all the various vocations, an equal number of blacks and whites, and so on.

    This all stems from the pathological equality of outcome doctrine.

    A much more reasonable and sane approach emphasizes equality of opportunity for everyone.

    Sjw's are often arguing emotionally, not logically. And they are generally arguing for equality of outcome.

    The word injustice is also a problem. Take the gender pay gap for example. There are many sjw's who very emotionally make the argument that the gap represents injustice. And yes, there is discrimination against women in the workforce. But the statistics suggest that it is just one small variable among many when determining the differences in pay among the sexes.

    So often what we see happening are sjw's arguing emotionally for equality of outcome in situations that appear to be unfair but are often just misunderstood in the absence of logic and reason.

    The sjw's are a symptom of post modernism, which really represents the death of science and logic and reason. And that's my issue with them.

    The guy sitting on his couch doing nothing more than making fun of the sjw's isn't much better of course, but is actually much less dangerous in my view. It hardly justifies his laziness, but I don't think marching in the streets and waving placards is the answer either..although there may be a time and a place for it occasionally.

    The answer is in personal responsibility, in my view.

    If you can't clean your room and dirty dishes in the sink, if you can't hold a job, if you can't mow your lawn, if you can't meet your obligations to family and friends, if you can't ..sigh...if you can't even manage and change your own mini universe, how on earth can you even begin to think you can manage and change the world???

    So the first thing to do is get yourself together. Most sjw's are kids. They're babies. They're mad about not having money, for example, but they don't have money because they're kids. Old people have money because they're old! They've been saving for their entire lives!

    Most people that are depraved and indifferent are old and established. Why would they want anything to change? Everything is going just swell for them. Plus, they feel, and maybe rightly so, that they've spent their whole life earning what they have, and expect others to do same.

    But at it's essence, it might just be boiled down to control, as Bill said. Established folks have it and the young sjw's want it. Arguments made for both sides are often elaborate excuses to either hang on to it or wrestle it away from those that have it. It's not about equity, it's about dominance (the Evergreen University debacle is the perfect example of that)
    Last edited by Mike; 21st February 2020 at 07:52.

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    UK Avalon Member Mac's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    But at it's essence, it might just be boiled down to control. Established folks have it and the young sjw's want it. Arguments made for both sides are often elaborate excuses to either hang on to it or wrestle it away from those that have it. " " Mike

    Anybody who wants control shouldn't have it usually, give me the reluctant wise leader all day long. Also your values aren't everyone's, some of the most enlightened people I've met are sometimes well at odds with some of your criteria. Dishes,lawn etc heh, take the wise men of the east some of them are slobs 8) or vagrants walking. Take musicians, artists, writers, some of them live among chaos. There was a piece the other day saying the more intelligence you have the messier round the house you are. For you, cue images of J Peterson's wife following him round sweeping crumbs up. That's a joke he's probably not like that but do you get what I mean everyone has different priorities no size is going to fit all. I agree though most people on the planet need to sort their own backyard out before pointing at others. On that note I'm going to pick my socks off the floor and throw them in the wash basket before i get whinged at. 8)

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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    I hope this is a good place to post this TedxUAMonticello talk and share an experience I had a few days ago.

    "Why are people hoarding toilet paper?" Speaker: Hans Hacker


    I was shopping for groceries for just what I needed -not to hoard. Surprisingly, there were only 8 gallons of the stores brand spring water and a lot of bottles of flavored waters on the shelves. I prefer Ozarka brand instead of store brand but this is what was available. I took 5 -one gallons and left 3. I did not know when I would get to the store again. I had spoken to a couple briefly earlier in the store when we were seeing how empty the shelves were. On the way out of the store I saw they had found some Ozarka water- individual bottles/case. They had 2 cases and I asked them if there were more in the store and were might I find them. They said they found them on the way out at the front and they had the last available. I thanked them. The husband took one case and put it on my cart . I am telling him ( we did not speak same language) I have plenty but he and his wife insisted. I went to my purse for money and his wife refused. I get teary eyed thinking about their thoughtfulness,generosity, no fear, just pure kindness and sharing with a stranger.

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    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The spectrum from 'Social Justice Warrior' to 'Sociopathic Depraved Indifference'

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    It might be a circle. not a spectrum. Where the two extremes join and unite is in the compulsion to enforce control and obedience on others — both individually and institutionally.
    FWIW, in the 70s a poli-sci professor I had in college made the observation that the various ism's are rooted in personality types. Some people are fascistic in their relationships with others, some are communistic, some democratic...

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