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Thread: COVID-19 Contrarians

  1. Link to Post #141
    France Avalon Member
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Thierry Meyssan is not buying the measure. He gives historic facts and brings scientific references of tests in Marseille .
    The featured Professor Didier Raoult says clearly that the contaminated should be isolated and not the others. He also explains their experience with the cure used by the Chinese.

    Personally I felt the same in my post of yesterday with some moral reflections.
    The disaster of halting nearly the entire economy is irreversible and the consequences enormous. The better measure would have been testing on a large scale. The professor says these tests are not complicated, the question of organizing it is the problem.

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1342523


    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    Thierry Meyssan isn’t buying it...the videos he links to of Didier Raoult seem to be promoting the same treatment that Trump tweeted recently.

    According to the President of the Italian Council, Giuseppe Conte, and the French President, Emmanuel Macron, the aim of confining the entire population at home is not to overcome the epidemic, but to spread it out over time so that the sick do not arrive at the same time in hospitals and saturate them. In other words, it is not a medical measure, but an exclusively administrative one. It will not reduce the number of infected people, but will postpone it in time.

    In order to convince the Italians and the French of the merits of their decision, Presidents Conte and Macron first enlisted the support of committees of scientific experts. While these committees had no objection to people staying at home, they had no objection to people going about their business. Then Chairs Conte and Macron made it mandatory to have an official form to go for a walk. This document on the letterheads of the respective ministries of the interior is drawn up on honour and is not subject to any checks or sanctions.

    It is too early to say what real goal the Conte and Macron governments are pursuing. The only thing that is certain is that it is not a question of fighting Covid-19.[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]======
    Last edited by Philippe; 25th March 2020 at 14:41.

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  3. Link to Post #142
    United States Avalon Member Ratszinger's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Unfortunately the damage is done now! I think the point of no return is fast approaching also and I also believe that this is like the "Emperor Has No Clothes ON STEROIDS!" and that some virologists are going to be seriously reprimanded if not publicly shamed to suicide by harassment once this all plays out! 97% recovery rate and this is their reaction! It's the most historic fear mongering and destruction of a world economy I've ever witnessed. This attack is not limited to the USA it is not limited to Trump even. It is worldwide and the damage is just beginning because of it. This overreaction will cost us more than our economy! Its is likely to collapse entire governments.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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  5. Link to Post #143
    Avalon Member animovado's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    This link might be interesting for someone looking after stats for the mortality rate in the EU:

    https://www.euromomo.eu/index.html

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  7. Link to Post #144
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    You can't even make this stuff up.
    Statistics, and behind the scenes things going on, and how they add up to the push for martial law.
    Once again, DJ connects the dots and brings light to the confusion.
    "Special High Priority Broadcast Tonight
    Continuity of Government Takeover Exposed"
    3/19/209
    There are some very important concepts brought forward in this stupidly long video. Man, I wish someone would go through and edit it down to 5 minutes. The info is also way too important to have allowed a podcast-style "call-in" (chat) of questions, that only made it longer and broke up the focus. I'd say a concise 5-minute presentation on the material would get a strong "must see" recommendation. He's really onto something with the COG aspect - all my spidey senses are tingling.

    Daniel, if you're reading this, please consider doing a 5- minute summary video making the same points.

    Avalon members, find a comfy chair and wade through this presentation. It smells like the same faction that pulled-off 9/11 may be at least piggybacking on COVID-19.
    Below is a summary:
    • COVID-19 crisis is launching the mobilization of continuity of government (COG), martial law, and fascist dictatorship in America with no foreseeable endgame, e.g. no return to normalcy…
    • Statistics of potential COVID-19 fatalities are projections from the Imperial College with no collaborated studies; one study has largely dictated the present hype
    • The objective of COG rollout may be a beta-test of taking the United States (and other governments) to the brink of “Nazi Germany fascism” to collect data and the response of citizens
    • COVID-19 may be a tool being used by the Joint Assistant for Development and Execution (JADE), i.e. military AI, with objective to master the human domain for its geo-intelligence database
    • We are amid PTB execution of COG and global fascist dictatorship… to the End Zone? Or pullback?
    • COVID-19 psyop a running cover for --- what?
    • COVID-19 may be “patsy” diagnosis of some other agenda or bio attack carefully targeted and orchestrated, piggybacked on positive COVID-19 results
    • Middle managers and government officials doing job based on the information provided and based on the hype surrounding the outbreak, e.g. water carriers for ulterior agenda not yet clear
    • Factions of Deep State attempting to ram COG through amid growing public fear, but entire machinery of government may not be on board
    • COVID-19 contradictions: psyop supposedly being waged in the name of public safety while psyop concurrently releases incarcerated criminals from Rikers Island and into vulnerable society on lockdown? Police citing and releasing criminals, but not arresting? Sending an explicit message to invoke lawlessness?
    • COG a coup attempt? If so, is President Trump captured or complicit?
    • COG assumes full military control of government with U.S. Constitution fully suspended, with military governors dictating regions per the dictates of societal collapse; meet America’s new slated dictator, Terrence J. O’Shaughnessy
    • California Governor, Gavin Newsom, blatantly misleads public with egregious lie backed by no facts (claims 25 million deaths imminent in California given no government action) and assumes fascist dictator hat. Miscalculated overreach?
    • MSM beginning to push the “COVID-19 deniers” meme to demonize and shame those who question the official narrative
    • COVID-19 the new 9/11?
    • Possible speculative objectives of rollout: forced vaccinations, mandatory implementation of invisible tattoo, e.g. “slave tag”, covert rollout of 5-G infrastructure amid “empty” schools and cities, collapse of global economy to reset to digital cashless society, etc.
    • Slave Revolt (rise of global populism) countered with PTB traumatic mind control foretold of 2020 prophecy playing out?
    • Despite reporting on very sobering developments concerning COG, Dark Journalist is optimistic and believes its rollout is an overreach that will fail
    Last edited by T Smith; 22nd March 2020 at 19:23.

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  9. Link to Post #145
    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    I came here to write this very same post and thankfully, I first read what I had not yet read. I have chosen (and I hope Djfskeeter does not mind) to re-post his post with paragraph breaks to make it more easily read by those like myself who have difficulty with eye sight.

    Quote Posted by Djfskeeter (here)
    Ok, so maybe...
    Ok, so maybe I’m a bit out of left field here, but do we seem to be inching into the trap that the suspected parties responsible for this whole thing have set for us? For instance, if “fear mongering” is being used as a potential weapon against us, wouldn’t these types of debates be exactly how they hoped we would react, which is basically throw everything at the wall and see what sticks?

    I understand that many if not all of the suspicions discussed here have plenty of substance, and I have no intention to pose a refutation in any manner. My proposal here is upon the concern that we may be feeding the fire that we are trying so hard to put out.

    After all, one of our worst enemies exists within, being controlled by our own fears; living in a constant state of distress and worry. It is said that fear retreats us to living in the past, and our subconscious is called upon to take control of our destiny; which is basically autopilot. Our conscious retreats when in fear due to our survival instincts, and results in our inability to properly manifest the things we desire.

    I’ve followed this thread due to my own interests, but I’ve discovered that I could have been feeding my fears all along; all just to explore the unknown realm of possibilities that could be an ulterior motive to the whole Covid-19 situation.

    I have many suspicions of what may be conspired against the people of this world, which is often traumatizing, but I feel that it is in the enemy’s best interest to make sure I remain in this state of distress, aside from my own. It only supports their situation because it keeps us in “check”, as we succumb to their control much easier in this state.

    I don’t intend to distract or discourage anyone’s ideals, but I do wonder if we are going about it all wrong, and are dismissing the real problem here.

    The spread seems to be very real, and I only hope that we all manage to be properly prepared for what could potentially occur within our communities.

    Considering that time is of the essence, I wonder if my time would be more valuably spent with addressing the most pressing issue at hand.

    Am I truly prepared if this virus were to infect my own realm in terms of prevention, recovery, care, etc?

    How about my family and those I care for?

    Can I say 100% that I am utilizing the time I have wisely, in that I will know exactly how to handle the situation if it actually were to present itself?

    These are just some thoughts I felt the need to share with you all, whether it be to seek a response or just to let it out. I hope it has relevance to you all as it does with me.

    Much love, and take care out there, folks.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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  11. Link to Post #146
    Wales Avalon Member
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)
    Quote Posted by Tomkoyote (here)
    Covid2019 is the first virus millesime (vintage date) produced and patented.

    A conversation between two wine connoisseurs today:
    Would you like a glass of Bordeaux 1961?
    Well,I prefer Chateau Lafite 1955, it is smoother on my pallet


    A conversion between people in the distant future.
    What's wrong John?
    Oh, I caught Covid 2019
    I know, it hits the lungs but not that bad. I myself caught the Rotavirus 2023 last month, it was hard.
    Oh, you are lucky it wasn't the Rotavirus 2029, it's really heavy on your system, I tried it once
    I read that they just patented a new HPV 2032 that attacks your vision

    The jobs of the future are in the virus making business.
    Please, cite the source for the claim Covid19 is "patented" and in what countries is it patented. Note: patents are "country-centric" (although the EU may have a "EU centric" patent structure).

    My request is not because I am not open minded that someone (or some entity) could "patent" a strain of coronovirus, I wish for a source that I could refer others who don't believe it.
    Didn’t Russia blame Britain for the Coronavirus pandemic recently? Might be an element of truth in that if the research at Americans for innovation is legit.
    =======(MAR. 16, 2020)—This is one of the most important posts we have ever released. In the last 48 hours—just as the Coronavirus lock down was occurring in the US—researchers uncovered the likely culprits behind the Coronavirus bioweapon.

    U.S. Pat. No. 10,130,701. (Nov. 20, 2018). CORONAVIRUS. Assignee: THE PIRBRIGHT INSTUTUTE (Woking, Pirbright, Great Britain), funded by Wellcome Trust, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, DARPA, WHO, EU. U.S. Patent Office.
    Bookmark: #betsy-and-thomas-aim | https://tinyurl.com/wd7m4oo

    American Intelligence Media "Betsy & Thomas" Audio Interview, Mar. 18, 2020
    Click here for powerful supporting AIM Coronavirus information and evidence

    Despite the obvious U.S. Patent. No. 10,130,701 held by The Pirbright Institute (UK) operated by The Wellcome Trust, no one in the mainstream media is talking about this glaring fact. Even the alt-media is mute. We believe because the culprits are using every propaganda trick in their playbook to prevent a light being shined on the British Privy Council and the Queen.

    China has been blamed, sort of, although the specifics are vague. We have shown that just a four-hour drive from Wuhan is Nanchang and the Merial Animal Health Institute manufacturing vaccines for The Pirbright Institute.

    The decision by The Pirbright Institute (Wellcome Trust) to move their Merial Health vaccine manufacturing plant offsite was taken after a virulent foot and mouth outbreak at their Merial plant...

    ... WHO WAS THE WELLCOME TRUST CHAIRMAN WHO SET UP THE MERIAL NANCHANG PLANT NEAR WUHAN?

    Elizabeth Lydia Manningham-Buller
    Fig. 3—Elizabeth Lydia Manningham-Buller. Former director of MI5 (2002-2007)—the Top British Domestic Spy-Liar; director and chair of Wellcome Trust (2008-present).
    The Wellcome Trust chair was Baroness Elizabeth Lydia Manningham-Buller, the former director of British MI5 (2002-2007). Her mother was GCHQ. Her father was Privy Council, Attorney General and Solicitor General, with a “Bullying Manner.” She is an eighth-generation peer.

    That’s not all, Manningham-Buller also chaired Genome Research Limited (2008-2015), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Wellcome Trust.

    In Oct. 2013, Manningham-Buller was the keynote speaker at the Pilgrims of Great Britain London at the Sir Harry Brittain Memorial Lecture. Harry Brittain was the founder of the Pilgrims Society in 1902. Brittain founded the Pilgrims soon after the untimely death of Cecil Rhodes and the grave illness of their their spiritual mentor Henry de Worms 1st Lord Pirbright. The capitalized on the funderal of Queen Victoria to gather their secret clique. Some 50 British peers formed the Pilgrims Society with heavy sponsorship from Henry Wellcome and The Daily Telegraph founder Lord Burnham Edward Levy-Lawson. Others included Alfred Milner, John Buchan, Philip Whitwell Wilson [Lenin's handler] and Winston Churchill. In 1909, Wellcome then bankrolled the Pilgrim Society's First Imperial Press Conference, 1909. He pampered his guests in order to recruit some of the newspapermen to help them form MI5, MI6 and GCHQ.

    Manningham-Buller's promotion by the British Pilgrims speaks volumes to hers and her bully father's long associations with the Pilgrims, Privy Council and Wellcome Trust.

    Operating from the same Wellcome Genome Campus is Genomics England Limited that is overseen by Manningham-Buller directly for the Monarch, which holds Golden Share control over the company.

    Of particular note are two Genomics England director-chairs:

    Sir John Alexander Raymond Chisholm (2013-2019) and

    Sir Jonathan Richard Symonds (2013-present).

    Sir John Alexander Raymond Chisholm
    Fig. 4—Sir John Alexander Raymond Chisholm. Founder of QinetiQ Holdings Limited, renamed QinetiQ Group Plc; his first director and CFO was Sir Jonathan Richard Symonds, current chairman of GlaxoSmithKline Plc, a Wellcome Trust surrogate.
    We have already written about Chisholm’s formation of QinetiQ (when SERCO moved into the U.S.) and the fact that former C.I.A. director George Tenet, and former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Edmund P. Giambastiani Jr. were QinetiQ directors. QinetiQ has been awarded over $8 billion in U.S. contracts in space, satellites, information technology, military and government agencies. See previous post.

    QinetiQ has received over $8.5 billion U.S. federal contracts. (PDF | Excel-downloads directly to your Downloads folder).

    SERCO has received over $9.5 billion U.S. federal contracts. PDF | Excel-downloads directly to your Downloads folder)

    SIR JONATHAN RICHARD SYMONDS- PILGRIMS SOCIETY / PRIVY COUNCIL "OL FIVE FINGERS" ACCOUNTANT

    SSir Jonathan Richard Symonds
    Fig. 5—Sir Jonathan Richard Symonds. QinetiQ's founding director and CFO, creator of the Queen's Golden Share control; chair of GlaxoSmithKline Plc, a Wellcome Trust surrogate.
    While our research zeroed in long ago on the Anglo-American Pilgrims Society as the actual “Deep State” globally, and while we have gotten tantalizingly close to find this person, his or her name has alluded us.

    Now we have found him: Sir Jonathan Richard Symonds.

    On Sep. 01, 2019, Symonds was appointed chairman of GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) Plc, the successor to Glaxo Wellcome.

    GSK is strategically aligned with Wellcome Trust where former MI5 director Manningham-Buller is the current chair.

    Symonds has been a director of HSBC Holdings plc since 2014-just months after James Comey left an HSBC directorship to become FBI director. He has been HSBC deputy group chair since 2018, he was also chair of HSBC Bank plc (2014-2018) until just recently.

    HSBC has been a major Clinton Foundation donor.

    Symonds was also chief financial officer of drug manufacturer Novartis AG (2009-2013).

    Prior to Novartis, Symonds was managing director of Goldman Sachs (2007-2009).

    Symonds was also chief financial officer of AstraZeneca PLC (1997-2007).

    PILGRIMS SOCIETY LYNCH PIN

    Here is the lynchpin that shows Symonds is the organizational Deep Throat of the Anglo-American Pilgrims Society. He was director and audit chair of the newly-formed QinetiQ (Feb. 28, 2003-Jun. 30, 2004)

    THE PRIVY COUNCIL’S ACCOUNTANT FOR THE QUEEN’S “GOLDEN SHARE” CONTROLS WORLD COMMERCE

    Symonds was QinetiQ’s second director just long enough to set up the chart of accounts and the share stock structure giving the Monarch’s Special Share (“Golden Share”) control of the company no matter how many sub-classes of stock were established.

    QinetiQ shares property with The Pirbright Institute (Wellcome Trust), the patent holder of the Coronavirus financed by Wellcome Trust and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. See also Coronavirus Traced to the British Crown.

    Our latest discovery that Baroness Eliza Manningham-Buller, former head of MI5 (2002-2007), is chair of Wellcome Trust and their related DNA-harvesting research associates, further confirms that the Anglo-American Pilgrims Society are making their move to dramatically reduce the world population by attacking our blood streams

    Their secret global communications network is being managed by the Anglo-American Pilgrims Society that is protected by the British Privy Council and the American Senior Executive Service (SES)

    They operate a secret global satellite system for themselves out of the Cobbett Hill Earthstation adjacent to The Pirbright Institute (UK)—on the very site of the 2007 foot and mouth outbreak from poorly supervised Pirbright Institute (Merial-Wellcome) sewage effluent. (READ: There are Anglo-American demons that span the globe from these fields). See Coronavirus uncovers Rothschild Lord Pirbright as key to the 140-yr. secret monopoly of the Pilgrims Society.

    CETel Cobbett Hill Earthstation
    Fig. N: "Cobbett Hill is located only 25 miles from central London in the UK, and occupies a seven-acre secure compound on 200 acres of land. Currently, it houses more than 25 antennas with active operations on 13 satellites plus spare capacity enabling quick turnaround times on even short-notice customer requirements. Due to the locations historical use by the British Ministry of Defence it has blanket planning permission for unlimited antenna installations within the 200 acres and operate within an RF exclusion zone preventing any local interference." —CETel GMBH CEO Guido Neumann on Jun. 01, 2019.
    Yes, this is hard to believe, but these facts are now screaming for us to pay attention.

    We have our blessed countries and beautiful world to save from these truly evil Pilgrims Society powermongers who want to kill about 90% of the world's population (to make more room for their hellish celebrations to Baphomet and Mollach).

    See p. 321 of Burrough's Wellcome & Cos. Pilgrim Society The Evolution of Journalism book celebrating British expedition theft of African poisons and cures, fake vaccines, forced innoculations, mortality tables, pedophilia and witchcraft (bee and butterfly symbolism are used heavily in the spy cryptography deception business) given to the delegates of the First Imperial Press Conference, 1909, if you think we are exaggerating.

    * * *

    Bookmark: #qinetiq-reports | https://tinyurl.com/wt9u7g3
    =======
    Ah that will be the same Baroness Eliza Manningham-Buller, former head of MI5, who inherited the epithet "Bullying Manner" from her father Viscount Dilhorne, whose mishandling of the prosecution of suspected serial killer Dr John Bodkin Adams was very very strange, the presiding judge calling it "an abuse of process"
    Last edited by happyuk; 22nd March 2020 at 19:50.

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  13. Link to Post #147
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    There has to be balance between facing our fears with courage and resolve and denying them altogether... We are being told 80% of people (and presumably throughout the world) will contract COVID-19. We are being told to prepare for lockdown for the rest of the year, with little or no means for the average person to provide for or to protect themselves.

    I will tell anyone who is seriously considering this as a viable solution, it will absolutely not fly. Society will collapse well before the virus takes its course (if we accept this solution) and we the people will be subject to a fascist geopolitical bureaucratic/dictatorship tasked to manage the crisis. It is the only logical outcome. I can almost promise authoritarian government will come to pass well before the virus clears through the population, as there will be no other way to manage the ensuing chaos... People without food, shelter, clothing, and the basic resources for survival will demand it. With pitch forks and baseball bats....

    In this milieu, many, many more people will die, by a factor of 100x, from democide and societal collapse than from the virus.

    Alternatively:

    We can endure a brief shutdown to catch our breaths--maybe two weeks maximum, and with a clear end date--and then reboot the economy come hell or high water. Yes, some people will sill contract the virus and some people will still die. I am not suggesting the government (remember we the people are the government) sit back and do nothing to combat the pandemic... nor do we sit back and go about our business and hope herd immunity takes hold without any planning; if this is a crisis, real or promulgated, I'm suggesting we aggressively mobilize the economy, similar to WWII, and stop producing cell phones and flat-screens and sport cars (among other things) and focus our collective effort on producing the following:
    • Mass production of ventilators
    • Mass production of hospital beds and necessary infrastructure to accommodate a real set of data of those who will need medical assistance.
    • Medical training/voluntary assistance on a mass Scale

    This, of course, is just the beginning of what the economy will need to produce at record pace to tackle this crisis. But this is what we should be focusing on, not shutting down the economy altogether.

    Remember, most people will recover from this illness, but 20% may need hospitalization and 5% may need critical care... that's the problem. But that's a problem our collective ingenuity and resolve can solve. Imho. We did it in WWII, and we can do it again.

    Our economy has the ability to mass produce smart phones and automobiles and flat screen TVs for every individual (with stockholder's deadlines in mind); if we switch gears now, with humanitarian deadlines instead, and with the fervor and the full brawn of the government behind a new directive, we should be able to remobilize production to accommodate the sick. We should then let the virus do as it will. Most well recover and do just fine--those at the highest risk will need to take precautions per the guidelines of their own providence.

    Is there really any other way to tackle this without losing our countries, our liberties, our very way way of life?

    If we execute this approach we may just find less people perish from this thing than from tuberculosis, cancer, heart disease, car accidents... and yes, even the flu.

    Whatever the case, a nine-month lockdown/allowing for global economic collapse/ushering in government assistance for our very survival (with conditions)/Marshal Law, ensuing Hyperinflation, etc., etc., is not the answer. Throwing out Constitutional Government is not the answer...
    Last edited by T Smith; 22nd March 2020 at 20:58.

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  15. Link to Post #148
    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Actually, DJ mentioned several times that Newsome predicted 25 million Californians would be INFECTED, not die of the virus, but at about 1 hour 46 minutes in, he misquoted and said "deaths".
    I have alerted his team via FB of the error, so hopefully it will be retracted;I think they are usually responsive to feedback, if they can get through it all.
    (Though Newsome surely exaggerated with that number, in any case.)
    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    • California Governor, Gavin Newsom, blatantly misleads public with egregious lie backed by no facts (claims 25 million deaths imminent in California given no government action) and assumes fascist dictator hat. Miscalculated overreach?
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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  17. Link to Post #149
    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    A fiasco in the making?

    As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data.

    The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco.

    At a time when everyone needs better information, from disease modelers and governments to people quarantined or just social distancing, we lack reliable evidence on how many people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 or who continue to become infected. Better information is needed to guide decisions and actions of monumental significance and to monitor their impact.

    Draconian countermeasures have been adopted in many countries. If the pandemic dissipates — either on its own or because of these measures — short-term extreme social distancing and lockdowns may be bearable. How long, though, should measures like these be continued if the pandemic churns across the globe unabated? How can policymakers tell if they are doing more good than harm?

    Vaccines or affordable treatments take many months (or even years) to develop and test properly. Given such timelines, the consequences of long-term lockdowns are entirely unknown.

    The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

    This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

    The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

    Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.

    That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

    read all here
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Quote Posted by Sammy, quoting an article (here)
    Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%.
    Right. But this soon breaks down.

    If exactly 100 people, and no more, suddenly got sick with this thing in a big modern city, and nothing else exceptional was happening, and all were given the best treatment western medicine could bring to bear, then maybe one person would die. (Maybe no-one at all!)

    But when the healthcare system is all collapsed, there are no more respirators or even beds, half the doctors and nurses are sick (and some have died, as has already happened in Italy and China), ICUs are being improvised in lobbies of commandeered motels, then all that changes and the death rate soars.

    And that's not even considering the knock-on effects of heart attacks, strokes, car accidents, and cases of appendicitis being unable to be treated at all, anywhere.

    I'm not arguing a case for what should be done. I'm just critiquing the article, which I'd suggest is really a sophisticated version of "It's just flu, bro."

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    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Sammy, quoting an article (here)
    Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%.
    Right. But this soon breaks down.

    If exactly 100 people, and no more, suddenly got sick with this thing in a big modern city, and nothing else exceptional was happening, and all were given the best treatment western medicine could bring to bear, then maybe one person would die. (Maybe no-one at all!)

    But when the healthcare system is all collapsed, there are no more respirators or even beds, half the doctors and nurses are sick (and some have died, as has already happened in Italy and China), ICUs are being improvised in lobbies of commandeered motels, then all that changes and the death rate soars.

    And that's not even considering the knock-on effects of heart attacks, strokes, car accidents, and cases of appendicitis being unable to be treated at all, anywhere.

    I'm not arguing a case for what should be done. I'm just critiquing the article, which I'd suggest is really a sophisticated version of "It's just flu, bro."
    That is understood, but is a separate potential reality that may (and sadly... likely) manifest more and more across the globe as it already has in Italy and elsewhere.

    The theme of this thread was to consider the more extreme claims about the virus may be just that... extreme.

    There are additional comments I could make but they are personal comments... meaning, they are comments I make to myself with regards to how I emotionally and mentally deal with my responsibilities to my family and community regardless of what's behind the virus, regardless how real it may be proven to have been, but based on the reality created by the perception of those in my community and, as that expands all the way to the global perception... because perception is driving everything.

    Is it possible there will be moments where hospitals may be overwhelmed? Yes, there already have been... but those cases do not have to be the reality experienced by every hospital on Earth and likely will not be (in my opinion). Are there shortages in the now moment in a locations here or there with regard to protective gear required by health care workers? In some places here in the US, this is already a reality. Is mobilization of remedy active? Most certainly. Will all escape, most certainly not.

    I understand locking onto a single statement in that article and then using that as a springboard to state that even if true, it may not matter, certainly it won't matter where health care is overwhelmed, but don't we have to consider how a reader might react when we post at times like this? Speaking for myself, I think so... and I strive to provide reasonably accredited third party sourced information when it is hopeful and I feel, helpful.

    Here's a great example... panic leads to hording, hording of N95 masks which health care workers need now.

    I feel I have a responsibility to be careful as to what I project with regards to what I post.
    Last edited by Chester; 22nd March 2020 at 22:44.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    I will tell anyone who is seriously considering this as a viable solution, it will absolutely not fly. Society will collapse well before the virus takes its course (if we accept this solution) and we the people will be subject to a fascist geopolitical bureaucratic/dictatorship tasked to manage the crisis. It is the only logical outcome. I can almost promise authoritarian government will come to pass well before the virus clears through the population, as there will be no other way to manage the ensuing chaos... People without food, shelter, clothing, and the basic resources for survival will demand it. With pitch forks and baseball bats....

    In this milieu, many, many more people will die, by a factor of 100x, from democide and societal collapse than from the virus.

    Alternatively:

    We can endure a brief shutdown to catch our breaths--maybe two weeks maximum, and with a clear end date--and then reboot the economy come hell or high water. Yes, some people will sill contract the virus and some people will still die. I am not suggesting the government (remember we the people are the government) sit back and do nothing to combat the pandemic... nor do we sit back and go about our business and hope herd immunity takes hold without any planning; if this is a crisis, real or promulgated, I'm suggesting we aggressively mobilize the economy, similar to WWII, and stop producing cell phones and flat-screens and sport cars (among other things) and focus our collective effort on producing the following:


    ...Whatever the case, a nine-month lockdown/allowing for global economic collapse/ushering in government assistance for our very survival (with conditions)/Marshal Law, ensuing Hyperinflation, etc., etc., is not the answer. Throwing out Constitutional Government is not the answer...
    I share your concern T Smith as probably most here at Avalon also do.
    I am currently not as pessimistic as you are.

    The key is to study data from previous pandemics. This is something the MSM purposely ignores.
    Do research. Put in the time. Dig up graphs from the 2009 Swine flu pandemic that infected more than 1 billion people worldwide.
    Realize that when all was said and done, when it died out, it had a CFR (case fatality rate) of .02% or approximately 200,000 deaths in 2009.

    There was a slight downturn in newly reported COVID-19 cases yesterday. Let's keep our eyes firmly planted on these numbers.

    And keep these key facts front and center:

    - The H1N1 death toll was lower than the global death toll for typical flu seasons, as estimated by the WHO.

    - Up to 650,000 deaths annually are associated with respiratory diseases from seasonal influenza, according to estimates by the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (US-CDC), the World Health Organization and global health partners.

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The info about the virus was available to the public and to politicians alike by February...actually much before that. So that seems like a bit of a red herring and typical right/left gotcha politics from the usual suspects.
    I have no idea what the public may have been told early on. However there are four senators who dumped loads of stocks, apparently after a Jan. 24 classified hearing, from then until around Feb. 16. Of course, they all deny having any knowledge of what the accountants may be doing with their investments. But it is a pretty strong, one-sided thing.

    It "looks suspicious" even if you are a nobody looking at something else.

    Because I have closely observed numerous investigations, I would go so far as to say that most crimes that have been committed have a "bonanza" like this sitting somewhere, and the difficulty is getting evidence to link to the suspect that a jury will support. Since they are able to say, we are not responsible, our agents did this automatically, it would be very difficult to push in court. It does not seem like political noise against Burr and the others, but it does seem like insider trading based on classified information.

    If so then it sounds like they are unaware of anything resembling the virus being "given" to the Chinese public, or they would have sold a long time ago.

    I think I heard about the outbreak in early January, but not to the extent of "sell everything" and shuttering the businesses.

    I don't really know if it was engineered at Fort Dietrick or evolved on its own in the wild, but, I don't think there is a need to replace a disease name with a slanderous one. The President is thick enough to have been found crossing out "Corona" from his recent press briefing and over-writing "Chinese" with a fat black marker.

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    People need to stop being terrified. Two main reasons.

    First: the data, the science, when understood and examined, show this virus is not "worse" than several of the others that were predicted to cause worldwide destruction (they didn’t). There is a ton of info, all of it pointing to favourable outcomes in the medium term. The fear is worse than the disease for the vast number of people.

    Second and more controversial perhaps: A persisting state of fear is unwarranted for people who have an eternal life perspective as do many Christians. People may recall that writers throughout the centuries marvelled that it was Christians who cared for the ill during plagues and upon battlefields, sometimes losing their lives in the process. But Christians do not think life ends at human death.

    A couple of years ago I was introduced to the book, Imagine Heaven, by John Burke. This serious presentation offers a systematic understanding of the Near Death Experiences and then connects the consistent features of the worldwide NDE reports with passages right in the Old and New Testaments. This book answers the final question for Christians: what happens when you die? Aside from 'Autobiography of a Yogi' this is the second most important book I’ve read in my life. It is a life changer.

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Some question why Italy was caught off guard when the virus outbreak was revealed on Feb. 21.

    Remuzzi says he is now hearing information about it from general practitioners. "They remember having seen very strange pneumonia, very severe, particularly in old people in December and even November," he says. "This means that the virus was circulating, at least in [the northern region of] Lombardy and before we were aware of this outbreak occurring in China."

    https://www.npr.org/2020/03/19/81797...s-pass-china-s

    Calculate again " The speed of transmission "

    Humanity , you are conned. Please, do not willingly sign any contract.

    PS:Turkish citizens who are older than 65-year-old will be restricted from leaving their homes amid coronavirus measures, the Interior Ministry said on Saturday.
    Last edited by Tangri; 24th March 2020 at 06:50.
    Love and Hope

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    The following two articles might shed a better light on the situation in Bergamo/Italy with its high mortality in the increased risk categories of higher age and pre-existing illness:

    21 October 2019 - 14:37
    Influenza vaccine: 185,000 doses ordered in Bergamo

    A campaign in collaboration between ATS, ASST and family doctors

    The 2019-2020 anti-influenza and anti-pneumococcal campaign organized by the Agenzia di Tutela della Salute (Health Protection Agency) and by the ASST (Aziende Socio Sanitarie Territoriali (Territorial Social Health Companies)) of the province of Bergamo in collaboration with the Family Doctors will start on 4 November (2019).
    "The primary objective is the prevention of serious and complicated forms of flu and the reduction of mortality in groups at increased risk of serious disease - begins the ATS Bergamo health director Carlo Alberto Tersalvi - The patients aged 65 and over , and those included in ADI / ADP programs or who are bed / disabled, can contact their doctor for the free administration of the vaccine, at the times indicated by the individual doctor. Children and adults under the age of 65, belonging to the risk categories, can contact the ASST Vaccinal Center of residence, at the locations and times indicated by the same Center ".
    "Last year 154,000 doses of flu vaccine were purchased and about 141,000 doses of vaccine were administered, of which approximately 129,000 to subjects over the age of 65, with a vaccination coverage of 56.2% - explains Dr. Giancarlo Malchiodi , Director of the UOC Preventive Medicine in the Communities, Department of Hygiene and Health Prevention, Bergamo ATS - 185,000 doses of vaccine have been ordered this year. The calendars with places and times for vaccinations are being defined by the ASST and will be available shortly on the ASST sites themselves ".
    The flu vaccination is offered free of charge to the following risk categories:
    Persons aged 65 or over (born in 1954 and earlier)
    ;
    Children over 6 months of age and adults with chronic diseases, such as:
    - chronic diseases affecting the respiratory system; cardio-circulatory system diseases; diabetes mellitus and other metabolic diseases; tumors; chronic liver diseases; kidney disease with chronic kidney failure;
    - pathologies for which important surgical interventions are planned; chronic inflammatory diseases and intestinal malabsorption syndromes; diseases of the hematopoietic organs and hemoglobinopathies; congenital or acquired diseases involving deficient antibody production, drug-induced immunosuppression or HIV;
    - neuromuscular diseases associated with increased risk of aspiration of respiratory secretions;
    Children and adolescents on long-term treatment with acetylsalicylic acid, at risk of Reye's syndrome in the event of a flu infection;
    Women who are pregnant at the beginning of the epidemic season;
    People living with high risk subjects;
    Persons admitted to health and social-healthcare facilities for long-term patients;
    Doctors and health care personnel;
    Staff who, for work reasons, are in contact with animals that could constitute a source of infection with non-human flu viruses (certified by the competent doctor: breeders, workers in the breeding activity, workers in the transport of live animals, slaughterers, veterinarians) ;
    Police and firefighters
    Blood donors.
    (...)
    (source (in Italian): https://www.bergamonews.it/2019/10/2...accino/332164/ )

    And now this one (I hope that I am totally wrong in seeing a connection here):

    Flu Vaccine Increases Coronavirus Risk 36% Says Military Study

    A recent military study shows military personnel evaluated who received the flu vaccine were at 36 percent increased risk for coronavirus with varied benefit in preventing some strains of the flu.
    “Examining noninfluenza viruses specifically, the odds of both coronavirus and human metapneumovirus in vaccinated individuals were significantly higher when compared to unvaccinated individuals (OR = 1.36 and 1.51, respectively) (Table 5).”
    The flu vaccine studied demonstrated varied benefit in flu prevention – – some strains showed significant benefit while others did not.
    Titled, Influenza vaccination and respiratory virus interference among Department of Defense personnel during the 2017–2018 influenza season, the report on the study addresses the phenomena of vaccine virus interference of the influenza vaccine. (…)
    (source: https://www.disabledveterans.org/202...onavirus-risk/)

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    Senator Burr is already being sued for the sales of stock, due to violating the violating the Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge, or STOCK, Act, a piece of legislation that:

    Burr was one of only three senators to vote against it.


    The initial report suggested that "accountants handle all the stock" and now:

    Burr has said that he "relied solely on public news reports" to guide his decision to sell stocks...(CNBC Asia being so informative)

    I suppose, legal or not, it was "virus panic".

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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    It's all about MANDATORY VACCINES (in case you were in any doubt, but if you were, this is a good place to start)
    (Well, not ALL, but this virus scare is a big part of the push to shoot us all up with lots and lots of toxins, which will make us sick, kills us and make us much easier to manage by the elite who want total control of everything. Of course, add to the list chemtrails, fluoride, glysophate, 5G, etc. )

    Focusing just on the US
    The National Plan to Vaccinate Every American
    3/21/2020
    https://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-Ne...m_medium=email
    by Barbara Loe Fisher


    Podcast Available on SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/nvicstandup/t...every-american
    (Also posted here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1343249 )



    "Scientists at the National Institutes of Health are working with a biotech company to quickly start clinical trials of an experimental messenger RNA vaccine and fast track it to licensure. 1 The FDA has not yet licensed messenger RNA vaccines that use part of the RNA of a virus to manipulate the body’s immune system into stimulating a potent immune response. 2 3 It looks like the coronavirus vaccine will be the first genetically engineered messenger RNA vaccine to be fast tracked to licensure, just like Gardasil was the first genetically engineered virus-like particle vaccine to be fast tracked to licensure. 4 5

    There likely will be lots of questions about whether the fast tracked coronavirus vaccine was studied long enough to adequately demonstrate safety, especially for people who have trouble resolving strong inflammatory responses in their bodies and may be at greater risk for vaccine reactions.6 7 8 9 10 However, there is no question about what will happen if the Centers for Disease Control’s (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) 11 12 recommends that all Americans get the newly licensed coronavirus vaccine.

    The government has a National Vaccine Plan. It is a Plan designed to make sure you, your child and everyone in America gets every dose of every vaccine that government officials recommend now and in the future.1986-1996: Establishing & Creating The Plan
    Established under the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act during the Reagan Administration, 13 the Plan didn’t really get traction until Congress funded the Vaccines for Children program in 1993 under the Clinton Administration 14 15 and gave the Department of Health and Human Services authority to fund a network of state-based electronic vaccine tracking registries 16 that can monitor the vaccination histories of children without the informed consent of their parents.

    In 1995, then Secretary of Health Donna Shalala used rule-making authority to authorize the Social Security Administration to disclose the social security number of every baby born in the country to state governments without parental consent.17 Federal officials explained that – quote - “public health program uses of the social security numbers would include, but are not limited to, establishing immunization registries” and that new routine use of social security numbers would help the government operate “a national network of coordinated statewide immunization registries.” 18

    By 1996, when Congress established a national Electronic Health Records (EHR) system under HIPPA, 19 the stage had been set for a government-operated electronic surveillance system to monitor the personal medical records and vaccination status of all Americans. 20 21 22 23 The justification for this big data grab by the government, which clearly violated the privacy of Americans, was to- quote - “protect the public by reducing disease.”Nationwide Electronic Health Records & Vaccine Tracking Systems
    Today, the nationwide federally funded Electronic Health Records system captures the details of every visit you make to a doctor’s office, hospital, pharmacy, laboratory or other medical facility; every medical diagnosis you get; every drug you have been prescribed and every vaccine you accept or refuse. Your Electronic Health Record can be accessed not only by government health agencies like the Social Security Administration, Medicaid and federal and state health and law enforcement agencies, 24 25 but also can be shared with authorized third parties such as doctors, health insurance companies, HMOs and other corporations, hospitals, labs, nursing homes and medical researchers. 26 27 28A new Health Information Exchange 29 30 31 initiative funded by the government will make it even easier for computerized health and vaccine records databases to tag, track down and sanction Americans who do not go along with the National Vaccine Plan in the future. 32 33 34 35 36 37 38

    What Happened to the Plan’s Duty to Prevent Adverse Reactions to Vaccines?
    Ironically, when Congress directed the Department of Health and Human Services to create a National Vaccine Program in the 1986 Act, federal health officials were told to put together a Plan to – quote - “achieve optimal prevention of human infectious diseases through immunization and to achieve optimal prevention against adverse reactions to vaccines.” 39 The Plan was not supposed to focus solely on vaccine development and promotion but to equally focus on preventing vaccine reactions.



    Yet, in the very first 1994 National Vaccine Plan only four out of 25 “objectives” and only two out of 14 anticipated “outcomes” addressed preventing vaccine reactions. 40 The 2010 version of the Plan 41 also largely ignored the legal duty of HHS to conduct vaccine safety research to fill in long standing knowledge gaps and take steps to make vaccines and vaccine policies less likely to cause harm. 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52

    Looking back, it appears Congress was not really committed to funding research and creating substantive initiatives to reduce vaccine risks, regardless of what was stated in the 1986 Act, or there would been congressional oversight and federal agencies would have been directed to follow the law rather than ignore it for more than 30 years. 53

    Government’s Vaccine Marketing Plan for the Pharmaceutical Industry
    Instead, government agencies have brazenly forged lucrative public private business partnerships with the pharmaceutical industry and the medical establishment to:
    develop many new vaccines; 54 55 56 57
    increase public demand for vaccines; 58
    raise vaccination rates among children to nearly 100 percent; 59
    create and expand electronic vaccine tracking registries; 60 61 62 63 64 and
    promote global vaccination programs, 65 66 even though the primary purpose of the 1986 Act was to reduce vaccine reactions and protect the U.S. childhood vaccine supply, 67 not fund and expand global vaccination programs.
    In fact, federal health officials accurately characterize the U.S. vaccination system in the 21st century as a business. A decade ago they admitted that – quote -“The 2010 National Vaccine Plan provides a vision for the U.S. vaccine and immunization enterprise for the next decade.” 68 That’s because they know the National Vaccine Plan is really a Vaccine Marketing Plan for the pharmaceutical industry. 69 70 71 72So, if you are wondering why many states are trying to pass laws eliminating all vaccine exemptions and mandate every vaccine the pharmaceutical industry produces and the CDC recommends, 73 74 75 76 you don’t have to look any further than the government’s well-financed National Vaccine Plan.

    Implementation of The Plan Accelerated in 2011
    Implementation of the Plan was accelerated in 2011 after the U.S. Supreme Court declared FDA licensed vaccines to be –quote - “unavoidably unsafe” for the purpose of removing almost all remaining liability from drug companies when vaccines hurt people. 77 78

    Since 2011, two powerful CDC-appointed vaccine advisory committees influenced by members associated with the pharmaceutical and medical trade industries – the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) 79 80 81 82 83 and the National Vaccine Advisory Committee (NVAC) 84 85 86 – have been busy coming up with new ways to meet strategic goals of the National Vaccine Plan.

    When highly publicized cases of measles were reported in California’s Disneyland in 2015 87 and in New York in 2019, 88 89 with military precision pursuit of the Plan was kicked into even high gear. 90 91

    During the past five years, California, Vermont, New York, Maine and Hawaii have lost vaccine exemptions, even though tens of thousands of Americans rose up in protest. 92 In 2019, the people managed to hold on to exemptions in states like Oregon, Arizona and New Jersey 93 but this year, bills to force vaccine use are already threatening parental, civil and human rights in Virginia, Massachusetts, Florida, Washington, Pennsylvania and more. 94

    Five Main Types of Vaccine Laws Being Proposed in States
    These are the five main types of laws being proposed in the states and your state may be one of them:Number One: State laws that eliminate all personal belief vaccine exemptions allowing you to follow your conscience or religious beliefs and make it illegal for physicians to grant a medical exemption unless it strictly conforms to very narrow CDC-approved contraindications to vaccination.

    National vaccine coverage rates among school children are at 95 percent for core vaccines like polio, pertussis, measles and chickenpox, yet, government health officials are not satisfied. 95 They have narrowed vaccine contraindications so that almost no medical history or health condition qualifies as a reason for a medical exemption. 96

    If you or your child have had previous vaccine reactions, are vaccine injured, have a brother or sister who was injured or died after vaccination, or are suffering with a brain or immune system disorder that the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) does not consider to be a contraindication to vaccination, states like California 97 98 are denying physicians the right to exercise professional judgment and give children a medical exemption to vaccination are threatening human rights. 99

    No wonder less than one percent of vaccine reactions are ever reported to the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System 100 and doctors feel free to discriminate against and deny medical care to anyone who is not vaccinated according to CDC schedules. 101

    Laws that eliminate medical, religious and conscience exemptions to vaccination and ban citizens from getting a school education – even a college education – do violate civil and human rights and so do vaccine mandates by employers who fire or refuse to hire workers based on their vaccination status. 102 103 104 The two professions being targeted first for workplace vaccine mandates are healthcare 105 106 107 and childcare workers, 108 109 but they certainly will not be the last. 110Number Two: State laws that turn unelected members of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices into de facto lawmakers and automatically mandate all current and future federally recommended vaccines without any public discussion or vote by duly elected state legislators.

    Under the U.S. Constitution, state legislatures hold the majority of power to pass public health laws, so vaccine laws are state laws. 111 112 If states hand that constitutional authority over to an unelected federal government committee, the people no longer can work through their elected state representatives to make sure laws do not force involuntary medical risk taking and punish citizens exercising civil and human rights. 113

    It is clear that Pharma and medical trade lobbyists partnering with government officials to implement the National Vaccine Plan are unhappy they have to spend so much time and money trying to strong arm state legislators into mandating every CDC recommended vaccine. At the same time, some politicians are not happy that a growing number of Americans are showing up in state Capitols to oppose oppressive vaccine mandates.

    Today, it costs a staggering $3,000 to give a child every one of the 69 doses of 16 vaccines on the federal government’s schedule. 114 In addition to coronavirus vaccine, there are more than a dozen experimental vaccines being fast tracked to market for TB, influenza, HIV/AIDS, gonorrhea, herpes simplex, strep A and B, e-coli, RSV, salmonella, and malaria, 115 with several hundred more being developed in a global vaccine market estimated to balloon to nearly $100 billion by 2026. 116 117

    State laws that automatically mandate all federally recommended vaccines are handing Big Pharma a big blank check and putting an unknown number of vaccine vulnerable children and adults at risk for serious health problems if they are forced to use every one of them. 118 119 120 121 122

    Number Three: State laws that allow doctors to declare minor children mentally competent to consent to vaccination so children can be vaccinated without the knowledge of their parents.

    There is plenty of scientific evidence that children’s brains are not developed enough before or during teenage years to support rational benefit and risk decision-making, especially if they are subjected to pressure. 123 124 Giving doctors the legal authority to, in effect, go behind parents’ backs and persuade a minor child to get liability free vaccines violates the legal right of parents to consent to medical interventions performed on their children. 125 It also puts vaccine vulnerable children at greater risk for suffering reactions. 126Parents know their child’s personal and family medical history best and if parents are left in the dark, not only are they blocked from preventing vaccine reactions but there is no way for them to monitor a child after vaccination for signs of reactions so they can immediately take their child for treatment. 127

    Number Four: State laws requiring schools to publicly post vaccine coverage rates for the purpose of shaming schools that allow students with vaccine exemptions to receive a school education.

    Publicly posting school vaccination rates and numbers of students with exemptions creates a hostile community environment by targeting certain schools and families, whose children have vaccine exemptions, for discrimination and abuse. 128 129 130

    It is an illusion that some schools are safer based on vaccination rates. For example, even schools with 100 percent vaccination rates and zero exemptions have had outbreaks of pertussis 131 and schools with very high vaccination rates have had outbreaks of measles and mumps. 132 133 That is because vaccinated children and adults can get infected with and transmit infectious diseases but sometimes show few or no symptoms and are never diagnosed or reported. 134 135 136 137 138 139 140

    Children and teachers interact with many other vaccinated and unvaccinated people outside of the school setting. It is discriminatory to require public posting of the numbers of healthy students with vaccine exemptions, when schools are not required to publicly post the numbers of students who are infected with transmissible diseases like hepatitis B and C, HIV, streptococcal, mononucleosis, cytomegalovirus, e-coli, Fifths disease, herpes simplex and more.

    Number Five: State laws that operate vaccine tracking registries and integrate them into Electronic Health Records systems without the consent of those being tracked.

    The National Vaccine Information Center has a two-decade public record of opposing the creation of national or state based electronic surveillance systems that automatically enroll children and adults without their informed consent to monitor their vaccination status and health histories. 141

    Not only have there been past security breaches with electronic databases dumping personally identifying information into the public domain, 142 but there is legitimate concern that the government should not be conducting electronic surveillance on citizens while pursuing a National Vaccine Plan that encourages punitive societal sanctions, such as the inability to get a school education or a job, for individuals who refuse to go along with the Plan.

    Learn About Federal & State Government Police Powers to Compel Vaccine Use
    For more information on the history and types of public health laws that allow the federal government and states to use police powers to compel vaccine use, go to NVIC’s website at NVIC.org. 143 144

    To learn more about vaccine legislation pending in your state and talking points you can use to educate your legislators, go to NVIC Advocacy.org and become a user of NVIC’s free online Advocacy Portal. You will be put into direct contact with your own state and federal representatives and sent emails when bills that threaten or expand your freedom to make voluntary vaccine choices are moving in your state so you can make your voice heard, including showing up at scheduled public hearings.

    Making Government Work for Us
    In America, we are governed by laws that the representatives we elect make, so it is important to vet all candidates for positions on issues you care about before going to the polls. Good laws can be enacted and bad laws can be repealed but only if we wake up, stand up and actively participate to make our representative government work for us.

    Already this year, there have been more than 50 good bills introduced in a number of states that defend voluntary vaccine choices. This is a time for positive action.

    It’s your health. Your family. Your choice.

    Note: This commentary provides referenced information and perspective on a topic related to vaccine science, policy, law or ethics being discussed in public forums and by U.S. lawmakers. The websites of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) provide information and perspective of federal agencies responsible for vaccine research, development, regulation and policymaking."

    Click to View and Access References:
    https://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-Ne...m_medium=email[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by onawah; 25th March 2020 at 02:09.
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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  37. Link to Post #159
    United States Avalon Member ErtheVessel's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    I'm a bit confused about which thread to post in, as the main Coronavirus thread also contains a fair number of contrary views, but I will stick with this one, as this is where I originally posted.

    I was prompted by the 60 Minutes video posted in the main Coronavirus thread in Post #2422 to consider what I believe to be a remarkable lack of investigative journalism by any credible source with regards to this whole "pandemic." I did, however, find the following article in a local paper. It describes how hospitals in the area are preparing for an overwhelming surge of patients with Covid-19 which has not yet materialized. The calm before the storm? I don't know. I still don't know anybody who is sick or know anybody who knows anybody who is sick.

    https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/03...e-in-patients/

    Perhaps there will be a surge of patients. No one really know yet.

    With regards to hospitals being overwhelmed, I live in a reasonably affluent region of the San Francisco Bay Area, so the medical care here throughout the region is fairly sophisticated and well-funded. In my own experience of caring for my aging and dying parents in the last number of years, I've had the experience of being with them numbers of times in local hospitals as they suffered their decline and were administered hospital care. In every single instance, the availability of hospital beds and ICU beds seemed to always be a dicey thing.

    What I'm saying is this: Even in a reasonably affluent area with well-staffed and well-funded hospitals, the hospitals are close to full even in times of non-pandemic. My point being that an influx of even 20 people with Covid-19 could potentially be problematic even here. I can see that there would be a much greater cause for urgency and subsequent alarm in areas with fewer hospitals and fewer financial resources. How to gauge this from country to country and region to region? There is no one doing any meaningful investigation. No one in the media connecting the dots or asking intelligent questions. There is no voice of reason or intelligent questioning of data.

    On that note, here is an update from Dr. Pamela Popper, whose video I previously posted in Post #65.



    In the interest of full disclosure, I had my own run-in with an extremely virulent flu last year, just around this time. It began at the end of March last year and lasted through at least mid-May. I felt just overall lousy for a week or so, and then the extreme fatigue set in. Next came a severe sore throat, high fever and the wracking cough began. Deep chills, to the bone. In every way I have heard, what I had last year sounds exactly like this new Covid-19. The shortness of breath I experienced was quite alarming. I could barely walk to the kitchen and stand up long enough to cook myself a meal. Not an exaggeration. I am normally pretty stoic when it comes to illness.

    If I were a normal person, I would have gone to the emergency room and probably been hospitalized with a ventilator and a glucose drip, etc. But for me, I would actually rather die than do that. And I really, genuinely thought I might die. I tried every conceivable herbal or supplemental treatment I had on hand and nothing worked. And I have been treating myself, successfully, for a number of years with my own knowledge of herbs, supplements and homeopathy. Absolutely nothing worked. What I finally ended up doing was going to a Chinese herbalist in a nearby city. For me, this is what worked. It took me a long time to recover and for the shortness of breath to heal, but this ancient, traditional herbal medicine was the turning point for me.

    My point in bringing this up is that I am well-aware of the potential of dying from a severe flu virus. I've been there. I am not saying people are not getting sick and not dying from Covid-19. (By the way, I have no idea where I got the virus, did not know anyone else who had it, and did not give it to anyone that I know. I did know a mental health professional in San Francisco who I was in contact with at that time, and he told me that he did know of a few other people who seemed to have the same nasty bug. But it did not make it's way into the news, in spite of how deadly it was.)

    I have no conclusions yet. All I can say is there is stuff going on that just does not add up.
    Last edited by ErtheVessel; 25th March 2020 at 16:20.

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  39. Link to Post #160
    United States Avalon Member ErtheVessel's Avatar
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    Default Re: COVID-19 Contrarians

    This is interesting. The article from the East Bay Times that I linked to above had changed from the time I copied it to the time I posted it. I guess online news sources do that regularly. In any case, I've copied and pasted the original article below, as I still had it open on my search engine:

    ____________________

    Coronavirus: When will Bay Area hospitals see surge in patients?
    Hospital and nursing union leaders say they haven't seen a crush of patients — yet

    By EMILY DERUY | ederuy@bayareanewsgroup.com and JOHN WOOLFOLK | jwoolfolk@bayareanewsgroup.com | Bay Area News Group
    PUBLISHED: March 24, 2020 at 12:10 p.m. | UPDATED: March 24, 2020 at 2:12 p.m.

    This story is available to all readers in the interest of public safety. Please consider supporting our coverage of the coronavirus outbreak by subscribing to East Bay Times. Only 99¢ for a 3-month trial.

    Even as they frantically stock up on protective gear and jump through the hoops of converting regular rooms to intensive care beds, Bay Area hospitals say they are not yet seeing the surge in coronavirus patients that state officials have warned is on the way.

    So when will it come?

    Santa Clara County, the most stricken in the Bay Area, reported that out of 375 confirmed coronavirus cases since Jan. 31, 125 have required hospitalization. A Bay Area News Group analysis of the county’s posted hospitalization figures shows they have risen sharply this month, from just one Feb. 29 to 21 a week later, 56 a week after that and 125 today. The figures are cumulative, however, so some hospitalized early on may have since been released.

    Few other Bay Area county health departments have publicly reported hospitalizations. Contra Costa County health officials said they just recently asked their eight local hospitals to report, but have yet to hear from two of them. They reported 8 patients Sunday and 12 Monday.

    Solano County reported seven of its 21 confirmed cases required hospitalization, though the status of nine cases was unclear, and Marin said five of its 47 cases were hospitalized.

    But the timing of the widespread surge is impossible to know exactly. Gov. Newsom this week called for California hospitals to add a staggering 50,000 beds to address a coming wave of patients, and officials are scrambling to add temporary facilities across the state, repurposing convention centers, deploying a hospital ship and taking over soon-to-be shuttered facilities.

    “I am sad to have to say the worst is yet to come,” San Francisco Public Health Chief Grant Colfax said this week. “Every community where the virus has taken hold has seen a surge in coronavirus patients who need to be hospitalized. We expect that to happen in San Francisco in a week or two or perhaps less.”

    But a variety of hospital administrators and union officials who represent nurses and other healthcare workers told the Bay Area News Group in interviews it’s not here yet.

    The coronavirus cases come at the tail end of influenza season, a disease that has frustratingly similar symptoms. According to the most recent influenza report from the California Department of Public Health, flu hospitalizations are “above expected levels” and the disease has killed at least 658 in the state this season. The report includes figures from Kaiser Permanente Northern California that show 4,636 patients visited its hospitals for flu-like symptoms that didn’t require intensive care, 761 others required intensive care and 346 died.

    In the backdrop of a growing pandemic, the numbers are vital for experts to gauge just how severe the toll of the outbreak will be, and whether dramatic efforts to force 40 million Californians to stay home are working.

    Before the crisis, an Urban Institute report found most Bay Area counties had less than one empty hospital bed per 1,000 residents — far fewer than in less populous parts of the country. Still, the Bay Area is better off when it comes to ICU beds than other parts of California. A report from Kaiser Health News found that while there are hundreds of ICU beds in the Bay Area, some counties — like Colusa, Mariposa, Calaveras and Trinity — have none at all.

    Still, even as they prepare for a surge, hospitals are hoping the statewide stay-home order will keep from overwhelming the system.

    “We’re seeing so far it’s working really well,” said Good Samaritan Hospital’s chief nursing officer, Mark Brown of his San Jose facility. But, he added, “time will tell.”

    Hospital officials in the East Bay and South Bay echoed Brown’s comments, saying that overall emergency room traffic was down, with people seemingly staying home in all but the most dire situations.

    “It’s a tough thing to pin down,” said Ben Drew of John Muir Health in Walnut Creek. “We are hoping that that will flatten the curve and we wont have the big surges we’ve seen in Italy.”

    Still, Drew said, his hospital, like others, is moving forward with stocking up on supplies and converting certain areas to receive COVID-19 patients.

    “We are closely watching and examining what happened in New York where the situation changed dramatically over the course of a few days,” Drew said. “We’re focused on preparing as best we can for a similar situation.”

    At Stanford, Kathy Stormberg, a nurse and executive in the hospital’s nursing union, agreed.

    She didn’t offer specific numbers but said nurses are reporting that the current number of COVID-19 patients, Stormberg said, are actually fairly low, “which has been good news.”

    Still, she said, she’s been pushing Stanford to do more long-term planning, including finding housing for nurses who already commute hours to work but may be called to work extra shifts or want to isolate themselves from their families.

    And her members, like other nurses around the state, are grappling with constantly changing guidelines. Recently, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention lowered standards for the protective gear required to work with patients suspected of having COVID-19.

    “That was very confusing and upsetting for people,” Stormberg said, adding that it seemed to be “based on the overall supply chain issues throughout the United States,” not the disease itself.

    “We don’t know how long our supplies are lasting or anticipated to last,” she said. “We are looking at extended wear.”

    Nurses at Good Samaritan Hospital have also expressed concerns, saying they haven’t been able to get tested for the virus even after possible exposure.

    In a statement, the hospital said, “The law states that it is not the hospital’s decision to test or not. Good Sam cannot make the determination whom to test. It is the CDC ultimately who makes that decision. The Santa Clara County Department of Public Health makes the recommendations.”

    The sense of fear is widespread, with nurses elsewhere reporting a palpable sense of uncertainty and stress, with daily updates at shift changes on ever-changing protocols.

    Newsom on Monday evening said officials are working to collect massive amounts of medical supplies to distribute to healthcare workers across the state, including 1 billion medical gloves, 500 million N95 masks, and 200 million face shields. In some cases, officials are turning to private companies for help. On Monday, Newsom said, Tesla’s Elon Musk had delivered 1,000 ventilators to Los Angeles, making good on an earlier promise.

    Brown, at Good Samaritan Hospital, said his team had just gotten a shipment of around 96,000 N95 masks from reserves, far more than the 50,000 he’d requested.

    “That’s a game changer for us,” he said, adding that the supply “could potentially last six to nine months.”

    The shelter in place order, Brown said, “helped a lot when it comes to cutting down our volume. People aren’t coming in unnecessarily.”
    Across the state, hospitals are postponing elective surgeries and turning to telemedicine to ease the crush, in some cases slowing the day-to-day pace at hospitals as they wait for the anticipated coronavirus surge.

    Still, hospital officials are looking to other countries for clues about what’s coming in the Bay Area.

    “We haven’t been tasked with anything like this,” Brown said. “We learn from history.”

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