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Thread: The face mask discussion

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    United States Avalon Member Luke Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by silvanelf (here)
    Quote Posted by Luke Holiday (here)
    4. I have presented statistical evidence on this forum for:

    a. lockdown vs non-lockdown and the results showed that lockdown countries had no statistical significance in lowering death rates - in fact those countries with no lockdown had a lower mortality rates.

    b. I also provided a statistical analysis of worldwide mortality rates looking at each country and found that there has been no increase in worldwide mortality rates since 2017.


    5. There is an abundance of evidence supporting that death numbers are being greatly inflated.
    You are averaging out the mortality rates by looking at each country as a whole . In other words: your "statistical analysis" is meaningless. You have to consider smaller regions separately; for example here are the statistics about the deaths per month in the city of Bergamo over the last ten years:

    Quote As hospitals become overcrowded, patients are being asked to stay at home until they display the most serious symptoms. Many will die in their houses or nursing homes and may not even be counted as Covid-19 cases unless they’re tested post-mortem.

    Last week, two researchers from northern Italy made this point forcefully when looking at Nembro, a small town near Bergamo that has been very severely hit by the outbreak. Writing in Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera they found there had been 158 deaths in the town in 2020 so far, as opposed to 35 on average in the previous five years. They noted that Nembro had only counted 31 deaths from Covid-19, which looks like an underestimate.

    In other towns nearby, including Bergamo itself, the trend seemed identical. The researchers made the point that the only reliable indicator in the end will be “excess deaths” — namely, how many more people have died in total compared to a “normal” year.

    Death per month in Bergamo over the last ten years*



    bigger image
    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/0...difficult.html
    You are averaging out the mortality rates by looking at each country as a whole . In other words: your "statistical analysis" is meaningless. You have to consider smaller regions separately; for example here are the statistics about the deaths per month in the city of Bergamo over the last ten years:

    Not sure why you think this would have any impact on what my analysis was trying to accomplish?

    The analysis was done to determine if in fact, a new disease was causing massive loss of life as depicted on MSM on a nightly basis.

    If their was truly a significant loss of life then it would it show up as an uptick in mortality rates for the first quarter of 2020. If this disease was in fact an extension of to the seasonl flu then there would be no increase in the worldwide mortality rates. I was particularly interested in the countries of china, US, Italy, and Sweden - each of which clearly showed no increases in mortality rates.


    … I would counter argue that your analysis of smaller areas is meaningless to what I was trying to accomplish. I wanted to see the big picture on how each country's mortality rates compared on a yearly basis.


    Perhaps looking at smaller regions is something you would like to take on


    be well

    Luke
    Last edited by Luke Holiday; 24th April 2020 at 20:23.

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  3. Link to Post #122
    United States Moderator Sarah Rainsong's Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Thanks, I think we understand each other, and I don't want to derail this thread, but just to clarify a couple things...

    Quote Posted by DaveToo (here)
    Thanks for taking the time to explain your position.


    Quote Posted by rainsong (here)
    Quote Posted by DaveToo (here)
    Quote Posted by rainsong (here)
    One major concern I have is that this virus does not act like most viruses where you do catch it and acquire immunity. IF this is bioengineered, I suspect that it does exactly the opposite. That if you do actually "catch" it, that is that the virus gains a foothold in your body and your immune system does not succeed in keeping it at bay at the first go round, then it settles in your body and becomes a recurring problem, much like lyme disease, which has also been speculated as being an engineered virus.
    Since this virus is allegedly new, we can only speculate on what you have said.
    Do you have any evidence for what you have said beyond speculation?

    Let's add one other point to the discussion.
    The vast majority of people who become Covid-19 positive either show no symptoms at all or very mild ones. If as you speculate they do not acquire immunity, but their bodies fight it off successfully, why should a second bout of the virus be any different from the first?
    Oh yes, I agree it's speculation. My speculation comes from knowing that there are other biphasic viruses and articles...

    As for your other point, I think using examples might best explain how I'm looking at this. Imagine COVID as an invading army. The BODY is the defending army.

    Example #1 - COVID attacks the first line of defense. BODY holds that line and the attack is thwarted without COVID every encroaching on BODY territory.
    Example #1 is pretty clear and straight forward.

    Quote Example #2 - COVID breaches the first line of defense, but the second line holds. BODY eventually forces COVID back out of their territory. No cities or towns were involved, and no damage occurred during the attack.
    When you say "BODY eventually forces COVID out of their territory", to me that sounds like out of the body, no? No harm done at all, even though it breached the first line of defence. Yes. No harm done. The virus attacked, the body repelled. In example #1, the immune system was never engaged. The virus never made it through the aura and/or the thermoregulatory and/or integumentary systems--your first lines of defense (not the immune system). In #2, the virus made it far enough to engage the immune system but was defeated before replicating enough to get symptoms going.

    Quote Example #3 - COVID breaches the first line of defense and the second. Towns and cities are attacked. Looting and destruction begins to occur. At this point, BODY either is able to fight COVID back out of their territory or eventually COVID wins and BODY is conquered.
    Example #3 says either the body kicks COVID out or it doesn't. But you don't say exactly what happens if it doesn't kick COVID out.
    There are several possibilities. Body gets sick and recovers. Body gets sick and dies. Body shows no signs of illness but COVID hangs around inside body.
    So in this example, the immune system has kicked in full gear, stimulating symptoms, and we have a noticeable fight going on. The fight can ebb and flow and yes, either eventually the body wins and recovers, or it loses and dies.

    Quote But in Example #2, the virus does temporarily gain a small foothold.

    So successfully fighting off the virus may not be as simple as having no or only minor symptoms. Successfully fighting off the virus means that it never got enough hold to get that far to begin with, it never made it past the first line of defense.
    I disagree here. You can successfully fight off the virus at the first line of defence, second or even third! So long as you win in the end, you have successfully fought off the virus. Agreed. My point was more in relation to symptoms. The virus can be present before the symptoms start (before the fight really begins in Example #3). So even without symptoms, the virus can still be present.
    Quote But since it can be established in the body well before symptoms start, I don't see how you can use symptoms as a judge for whether or not the virus was kept from ever establishing a foothold.
    I agree with you on this. It is certainly possible that the virus can hang around for a short or long period of time, undetected.

    Quote In other words, if damage by the COVID army is the measure for how far they advanced into BODY's territory, how do you know whether they made it past the first line of defense or the second?

    So that's why I don't think that the severity of symptoms is necessarily a good indication of how this virus is going to act in future, which yes, we're only speculating on.
    I agree with you on these points.
    At this point, I think I may have just made this less clear.

    Basically, I agree with you. As long as the virus is defeated and body wins in the long run, it doesn't matter how many lines of defense the virus passed through. My main point is only that this virus that doesn't always show symptoms, a lack of symptoms does not necessarily mean that the virus was defeated. Too many unknowns at this point for me to be comfortable with that assumption that no symptoms or little symptoms means that the road ahead is all free and clear.
    The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air...
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    This is a great thread. I haven't gotten past page two, but man you all had me laughing for a while. I love you all.

    I don't wear a mask, but it's only because I have always felt weird about wearing a mask of any kind. I just always felt like we are all wearing masks already and it was dumb to add another layer to an already muddled situation as we have here on Planet Earth.

    And I come from a city where everyone wears masks during Mardi Gras. I'd just put my sunglasses on and call it a day.
    Pastor who decried hysteria, dies of Corona Virus after attending Mardi Gras.

    A little over a month ago, Pastor Spradlin, who was 66, drove with his wife Jean the 900 miles (1500 km) from their home in Virginia to Louisiana for Mardi Gras.

    He viewed the festivities as an opportunity, through music, to save the souls of some of the hundreds of thousands of people that would attend.


    Jesus loved him...past tense.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52157824

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Luke,

    Mortality rates have spiked in some locales, many of those areas were late to institute lock down measures, in more densely packed areas with populations that are older.
    The objective is to slowly acquire herd immunity, through vaccine or direct exposure. Vaccine may turn out to be preferable, depending on the nature of the virus. If the virus turns out to have devastating post viral consequences, it might be imperative to do everything we can logically do while we wait for a vaccine. That may include masking up to prevent larger particles from reaching other people.

    Greybeard,

    When you masked up for your eye appointment, you do this more for the benefit of the doctor than for yourself. His mask protects you and yours protects him. Sure there may be some bits floating in the air, but neither you nor the doctor are going to experience massive amounts of virus hitchhiking on particulate matter coming out of your mouth while talking.

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  8. Link to Post #125
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    at the risk of being boring --countless professionals are saying this is no worse than seasonal flu--the death rate similar.
    Now were people advised to wear facemasks for seasonal flu?
    Ilike others have spent hours looking at various videos and am open minded.

    This is just two -- there are loads of professionals saying the same
    Investigate deeply there is an agenda -- people are being brainwashed to depend on the state.
    Wear the mask get the anti virus or you wont be allowed out.
    This is serious manipulation.
    Those with strong immune systems will not get the virus or a less severe form.
    Even the media now talking about heard immunity.
    If you have underlying problems then your immune system is weakened and mask or no mask you are prone to get the virus.
    Experts not even that sure how it spreads --if its in the air the you would have to stop breathing in and out to avoid it.
    As I say all this is maybe so.
    Im old enough not to go painting myself in to a corner.
    Im happy to wait some time to see if David Icke is right or not.
    Chris





    Ive added a David Icke video below I hope he is wrong but he joins the dots
    Ch

    https://www.davidicke.com/video/5684...en-top-pyramid
    Last edited by greybeard; 24th April 2020 at 20:32.
    In general what I post, is, a "IS THAT SO?" Definitely maybe.

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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  10. Link to Post #126
    United States Avalon Member Luke Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Luke,

    Mortality rates have spiked in some locales, many of those areas were late to institute lock down measures, in more densely packed areas with populations that are older.
    The objective is to slowly acquire herd immunity, through vaccine or direct exposure. Vaccine may turn out to be preferable, depending on the nature of the virus. If the virus turns out to have devastating post viral consequences, it might be imperative to do everything we can logically do while we wait for a vaccine. That may include masking up to prevent larger particles from reaching other people.

    Greybeard,

    When you masked up for your eye appointment, you do this more for the benefit of the doctor than for yourself. His mask protects you and yours protects him. Sure there may be some bits floating in the air, but neither you nor the doctor are going to experience massive amounts of virus hitchhiking on particulate matter coming out of your mouth while talking.
    … so you're the one who is going to line up that vaccine? - best of luck with that

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  12. Link to Post #127
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by Luke Holiday (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Luke,

    Mortality rates have spiked in some locales, many of those areas were late to institute lock down measures, in more densely packed areas with populations that are older.
    The objective is to slowly acquire herd immunity, through vaccine or direct exposure. Vaccine may turn out to be preferable, depending on the nature of the virus. If the virus turns out to have devastating post viral consequences, it might be imperative to do everything we can logically do while we wait for a vaccine. That may include masking up to prevent larger particles from reaching other people.

    Greybeard,

    When you masked up for your eye appointment, you do this more for the benefit of the doctor than for yourself. His mask protects you and yours protects him. Sure there may be some bits floating in the air, but neither you nor the doctor are going to experience massive amounts of virus hitchhiking on particulate matter coming out of your mouth while talking.
    … so you're the one who is going to line up that vaccine? - best of luck with that
    Wife and I worked for the gov. in the dental corp. and were required to get vaccines every flu season! Never had any issues with them at all in 22 years service. I find it interesting that people feel this way about vaccines but don't hesitate to get their dog a rabies vaccine and do so gladly. I also find it quite odd that such conspiracy theories exist around the people giving the shots to the public when they themselves get the very same vaccine so you would think if there was any truth to the vaccines being contaminated with harmful or even fatal poisons that they would never subject themselves or their families to it! I'd say unless you are allergic to eggs you are probably safe with the flu vac. Most have egg in the mixture though and people like my mother for example should avoid it due to that reason but otherwise I have not seen any problems with one. Oh and as for the mercury, well, while true there is some in it the fact remains you take in more mercury from one helping of any ocean seafood than this shot will ever pass on to you.
    Last edited by Ratszinger; 24th April 2020 at 20:38.
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by rainsong (here)
    Thanks, I think we understand each other, and I don't want to derail this thread, but just to clarify a couple things...

    ... Basically, I agree with you. As long as the virus is defeated and body wins in the long run, it doesn't matter how many lines of defense the virus passed through. My main point is only that this virus that doesn't always show symptoms, a lack of symptoms does not necessarily mean that the virus was defeated. Too many unknowns at this point for me to be comfortable with that assumption that no symptoms or little symptoms means that the road ahead is all free and clear.
    Thanks rainsong. All is good.
    With the clarification we are in agreement.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Quote Posted by Luke Holiday (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Luke,

    Mortality rates have spiked in some locales, many of those areas were late to institute lock down measures, in more densely packed areas with populations that are older.
    The objective is to slowly acquire herd immunity, through vaccine or direct exposure. Vaccine may turn out to be preferable, depending on the nature of the virus. If the virus turns out to have devastating post viral consequences, it might be imperative to do everything we can logically do while we wait for a vaccine. That may include masking up to prevent larger particles from reaching other people.

    Greybeard,

    When you masked up for your eye appointment, you do this more for the benefit of the doctor than for yourself. His mask protects you and yours protects him. Sure there may be some bits floating in the air, but neither you nor the doctor are going to experience massive amounts of virus hitchhiking on particulate matter coming out of your mouth while talking.
    … so you're the one who is going to line up that vaccine? - best of luck with that
    Wife and I worked for the gov. in the dental corp. and were required to get vaccines every flu season! Never had any issues with them at all in 22 years service. I find it interesting that people feel this way about vaccines but don't hesitate to get their dog a rabies vaccine and do so gladly. I also find it quite odd that such conspiracy theories exist around the people giving the shots to the public when they themselves get the very same vaccine so you would think if there was any truth to the vaccines being contaminated with harmful or even fatal poisons that they would never subject themselves or their families to it! I'd say unless you are allergic to eggs you are probably safe with the flu vac. Most have egg in the mixture though and people like my mother for example should avoid it due to that reason but otherwise I have not seen any problems with one. Oh and as for the mercury, well, while true there is some in it the fact remains you take in more mercury from one helping of any ocean seafood than this shot will ever pass on to you.
    I dont have a problem with past vaccines in fact I had one a few month back for shingles however its the emotional blackmail thats behind the upcoming one and who owns the vaccine that bothers me. Bill Gates who is also the main donor to The World Health Organization.
    Chris
    In general what I post, is, a "IS THAT SO?" Definitely maybe.

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    I have healthy skepticism of flu vaccines from personal experience. But I also have an illness that effects my immune system, so am not typical. Would I be the first to take a vaccine when and if it comes out? I don't think so. I would wait and see if it causes cytokine storms, or other adverse reactions in the general population and particularly in susceptible individuals.

    I am as deeply suspicious of the pharmacuetical industry and the cdc as anyone on this forum. It doesn't mean they can't or won't come up with a decent vaccine or that they are part of a massive and intentional genocidal conspiracy. If big pharma is part of a conspiracy it is to make as much money as possible...without killing off their customer base.

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    ... If big pharma is part of a conspiracy it is to make as much money as possible...without killing off their customer base.
    ... and without curing them. The vaccine will likely be designed or pushed in a way that you'll need one every year - like the "flu' vaccine.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    ... If big pharma is part of a conspiracy it is to make as much money as possible...without killing off their customer base.
    ... and without curing them. The vaccine will likely be designed or pushed in a way that you'll need one every year - like the "flu' vaccine.
    That wouldn't surprise me a bit. They are into managing rather than curing. But if the science literature can be believed, the main reason for a different vaccine every year is mutation and altogether different strains that pop up that require different vaccines.

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    ... If big pharma is part of a conspiracy it is to make as much money as possible...without killing off their customer base.
    ... and without curing them. The vaccine will likely be designed or pushed in a way that you'll need one every year - like the "flu' vaccine.
    That wouldn't surprise me a bit. They are into managing rather than curing. But if the science literature can be believed, the main reason for a different vaccine every year is mutation and altogether different strains that pop up that require different vaccines.
    I get why they do it, it makes some sense, however some studies are showing that once you start taking flu vaccines, you become more susceptible to it overall - and then you need to keep getting them - kinda like how a heroin dealer might look to hook people with their initial free sample.

    This might just be the overall immune weakening effect that some vaccines seem to have, but either way, its all good for profit models - of which a pharma company won't proceed unless it looks lucrative to them. They aren't in it to help you, that at best is just a potential side effect, where vaccines and drugs are effective or highly desired.

    Anyway, we should try to drag this thread back to topic?
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    I wear a face mask when needed because I believe they work as risk reducers.


    For those interested here’s an article from Chris Martenson’s latest video:

    Quote Coronavirus Diagnoses In Staff Drop By Half After Boston Hospital Requires Masks For All

    After Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston began requiring that nearly everyone in the hospital wear masks, new coronavirus infections diagnosed in its staffers dropped by half — or more.

    Brigham and Women’s epidemiologist Dr. Michael Klompas said the hospital mandated masks for all health care staffers on March 25, and extended the requirement to patients as well on April 6.

    "When we first began our universal masking policy, we had 12 to 14 new infections per day among our health care workers," he said. "And then after we instituted employee masking, that number dropped down to around eight."

    It dropped still further to about six new infections a day once patients had to wear masks, too.

    This is by no means gold-plated evidence, Klompas said, and correlation is not causation, but it does suggest that wearing simple masks may help stem the spread of the virus, whether in a hospital or out in public.

    Full article

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Me too I wear a face mask as needed.
    Love with no fear

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    Wife and I worked for the gov. in the dental corp. and were required to get vaccines every flu season! Never had any issues with them at all in 22 years service. I find it interesting that people feel this way about vaccines but don't hesitate to get their dog a rabies vaccine and do so gladly. I also find it quite odd that such conspiracy theories exist around the people giving the shots to the public when they themselves get the very same vaccine so you would think if there was any truth to the vaccines being contaminated with harmful or even fatal poisons that they would never subject themselves or their families to it! I'd say unless you are allergic to eggs you are probably safe with the flu vac. Most have egg in the mixture though and people like my mother for example should avoid it due to that reason but otherwise I have not seen any problems with one. Oh and as for the mercury, well, while true there is some in it the fact remains you take in more mercury from one helping of any ocean seafood than this shot will ever pass on to you.
    To vaccinate against a life-threatening disease is prudent. To vaccinate against a lifestyle-threatening disease is foolish. But some people prefer to inject unknown concoctions into their veins than to risk a few days in bed.

    While I got the Swine Flu and survived to live a full life, this lady took the Swine Flu vaccine in 1976 and became paralysed.



    As Dirty Harry would say, "You feel lucky, punk?" :-)
    Last edited by TomKat; 26th April 2020 at 21:08.

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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    I think this pronouncement from the 'Mother of All Covid-19 authorities' (WHO) says it all with respect to face masks:

    "A medical mask is not required if exhibiting no symptoms, as there is no evidence that wearing a mask - of any type - protects non-sick persons. However, in some cultures, masks may be commonly worn. If masks are to be worn, it is critical to follow best practices on how to wear, remove and dispose of them and on hand hygiene after removal (see Advice on the use of masks)"
    Last edited by DaveToo; 29th April 2020 at 21:18.

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  34. Link to Post #138
    Australia Avalon Member Tigger's Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    I don’t wear a face mask because I want facial recognition cameras everywhere to spy on me and track my movements. I really believe the government wants to keep me safe and secure because I’m so frightened that there’s evil, pestilence, unleashed dogs, conspiracy theorists, tax collectors, runaway trains and all manner of danger everywhere I look. I know that if I wear a face mask, facial recognition cameras can’t tell if I’m a known troublemaker at sporting events, or a gruesome axe-murderer when queueing up at airport immigration lines trying to flee the country. And surely there are toxic chemicals in those things anyway.

    [sarcasm is intentional and purely in jest. Apologies if I’ve offended anyone’s sensibilities]

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  36. Link to Post #139
    United States Moderator Sue (Ayt)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Pastor who decried hysteria, dies of Corona Virus after attending Mardi Gras.

    A little over a month ago, Pastor Spradlin, who was 66, drove with his wife Jean the 900 miles (1500 km) from their home in Virginia to Louisiana for Mardi Gras.

    He viewed the festivities as an opportunity, through music, to save the souls of some of the hundreds of thousands of people that would attend.


    Jesus loved him...past tense.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52157824
    It annoyed me how the MSM ran with this one dissing this man. He sounded like a good and joyful guy. And Mardi Gras occurred early on in the crisis. (It was Feb. 25, when only 53 cases had officially occured in the US.) Stay-at-home orders did not even begin in the US until mid March.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    Canada Avalon Member
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    Default Re: The face mask discussion

    I am not going to tell anyone to not get the vaccine, but perhaps you might want to think about some things...

    Bill Gates, one of the main "pushers" of a covid-19 vaccine has stated that he wants to bring down the world's population, and he said that a vaccine would make that happen.

    The company that he backed for making vaccines made many people in Africa sterile after they were given a vaccine.

    SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome - I didn't know what it was when I was young. But there is strong evidence that relates it to babies dying after being given vaccines. Just recently a baby died right in a doctor's office immediately upon receiving a vaccination. (Not the first time this has happened.)

    I have children that were dramatically affected from their vaccines. Then my next were not vaccinated and they are so much more healthier than their older siblings. I wish I had done the research prior to my children being hurt.

    Considering that there is evidence that there are treatments that cure people from covid-19, and the TPTB are banning it's use and doing their best to hide it. Similarly with cancer. A personal family friend who worked as a scientist created a cure for cancer and then he was "suicided".

    With the ability to research and see all this for yourself, why would a person allow someone like Bill Gates to create a 'potion' and then put your arm out and have it injected into your body?

    Would you at least read (and take a bit of time to know the reality of the content behind a scientific term) to find out what is in the vaccine before accepting it into your body?

    It is easy to see that this pandemic was rolled out to bring in a vaccine for the entire world. (If it wasn't a planned pandemic, then they sure jumped on an opportunity.)

    Take a bit of time for yourself and do a bit of research before allowing others' to control you.

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