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Thread: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Gwin Ru (here)
    Paris, France... today:
    Also in London. There are a number of YouTube livestreams, easily found. This page below is one of many containing live text updates.
    People who are guarding the statues are already being labelled "far right" by the media, including this Telegraph feed.

    What if they don’t belong to any such group and are just normal people taking a stand?

    The answer, alas, is tough. It has evidently been decided that any opposition to BLM is of the Far Right.
    Last edited by happyuk; 13th June 2020 at 18:45.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Gwin Ru (here)
    Paris, France... today:


    Social distancing be damned!

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    I've been watching this video. It's only really relevant on this thread because of the way almost every piece of information everywhere is being twisted into a pretzel to suit someone's point of view or agenda. Here, the video (and the recorded dialog) says all.


    It's pretty dreadful when you know this poor guy will end up dead just a short time later. (And, very probably, the cop's life is ruined forever.) But there are no bad guys here. The ex-cop video commentator makes a whole bunch of very good points.

    With 20-20 hindsight, it's so obvious they should have done what they could to de-escalate the situation. But (maybe), they were simply following required protocol. Ugh. The entire thing was a multiple tragedy.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Dave speaks on the subject of George Floyd and resulting events - the title refers to the number of minutes and seconds that the 'officer' had George Floyd pinned down.

    Raw language warning, as you would expect from Dave, who I consider a comedic genius and one who removed himself and his attempted controllers from the corrupt Hollywood and television powers that be at the pinnacle of his career.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tR6mKcBbT4

    Last edited by mountain_jim; 15th June 2020 at 14:33.
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  9. Link to Post #445
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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by happyuk (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Gwin Ru (here)
    Paris, France... today:
    Also in London. There are a number of YouTube livestreams, easily found. This page below is one of many containing live text updates.
    People who are guarding the statues are already being labelled "far right" by the media, including this Telegraph feed.

    What if they don’t belong to any such group and are just normal people taking a stand?

    The answer, alas, is tough. It has evidently been decided that any opposition to BLM is of the Far Right.

    Too true. There is very little (if any) attempt at actual dialogue in American politics these days. It seems like anybody who expresses an opinion is instantly categorized as being an "extreme" activist on one side or the other. The result is a declared polarization of views, regardless of what is said. There is no middle ground anymore, consequently making it nearly impossible to find things that the average person can identify with. But let's face it, most people are in the middle. How can there be any general agreement on anything?

    B
    A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

    Albert E.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    ... Or did George Floyd Die of a Drug Overdose?

    by JP Leonard
    Jun 16 · 18 min read

    A Forensic Analysis
    “The centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world… The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.” — W. B. Yeats, 1919
    Truth is the first victim in politics. Factions and passions rule. Random facts are picked as weapons, no one thinks things through.

    We need to understand the facts surrounding the death of George Floyd.

    Many key facts are being ignored:
    - Floyd’s blood tests showed a lethal concentration of Fentanyl of about THREE times the maximum that has been recorded in a survivor, even in intensive care.

    — Fentanyl is a dangerous opioid 50 times more potent than heroin. It has rapidly become the most common cause of death among drug addicts.

    — The knee hold used by the police is not a choke hold, it does not impede breathing. It is a body restraint and is not known to have ever caused fatal injury.

    — Floyd already began to complain “I can’t breathe” a few minutes before the neck restraint was applied, while resisting the officers when they tried to get him into the squad car. Fentanyl affects the breathing, causing death by respiratory arrest.

    — It was normal procedure to restrain Floyd 1) because he was resisting arrest, 2) probably in conjunction with excited delirium (EXD), an episode of violent agitation brought on by a drug overdose, typically brief and ending in death from cardiopulmonary arrest.

    — The official autopsy did indeed give cardiopulmonary arrest as the cause of death, and stated that injuries he sustained during the arrest were not life-threatening.

    — Videos of the arrest do not show police beating or striking Floyd, only carefully restraining him

    — In one video Floyd is heard shouting and groaning loudly and incoherently while restrained on the ground, which appears to be a sign of the violent, shouting phase of EXD.
    Minneapolis police officers have been charged with Floyd’s murder. Yet all the evidence points to the fact that Floyd had taken a drug overdose so strong that his imminent death could not have been prevented, whatever the circumstances. In reality, the police were neither an intentional nor accidental cause of his death. These crucial facts have been completely ignored in the uproar.

    It is widely believed that George Floyd died from a police officer’s knee on his neck, whether due to asphyxiation or neck injury. That may be how it looks, to a naïve viewer. In reality, the county autopsy report says he died of a heart attack,[1] and states that there were “no life-threatening injuries.” Then how could they conclude it was homicide?

    When scientists review scientific papers, they look primarily at the evidence, and give little weight to the conclusions, which are only the other guy’s opinions. To blindly follow “expert opinions” is the Authoritarian View of Knowledge. This is no real knowledge at all, because to assess whether an expert is always right, we would need infinite knowledge, and doubly so when experts disagree. Not thinking for oneself is not really thinking.

    So let us stick to the evidence. The county’s ambivalent autopsy also included the following hard facts:
    “Toxicology Findings: Blood samples collected at 9:00 p.m. on May 25th, before Floyd died, tested positive for the following: Fentanyl 11 ng/mL, Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL, … Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL … 86 ng/mL of morphine,” but draws no conclusions therefrom, noting only that “Quantities are given for those who are medically inclined.”
    Shouldn’t we be so inclined? This fentanyl concentration, including its norfentanyl metabolite at its molecular weight, was 20.6 ng/mL That is over three times the lethal overdose, following earlier reports where the highest dose survived was 4.6 ng/mL.[2]

    If ever there was a leap before a look, we are in it now. Masses of people have become extremists, screaming to tear down civilization, based on conclusions that are as false as they are hasty.

    Regarding suffocation, the county medical examiner’s report found “no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.”[3] Pressure applied to the side of the neck, as in this case, and not to the throat, has little or no effect on breathing. One can easily verify this oneself.[4]

    One difficulty is that there are public statements to the effect that the coroner ruled it a homicide, and the title of the autopsy report includes the term “neck compression.” But the words “homicide,” “restraint,” “stress” or “compression” do not appear in the 20-page body of the report. References to the neck are few — a couple minor abrasions, a contusion on the shoulder, and “The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of hemorrhage.” It is as if the title was chosen in regard to what was expected or proposed, but which was never found, and the title was never updated. There seems to be no support at all in the report body for the report title, which reads, “Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”

    The term “cause of death” does not appear. The word “death” appears in this comment on the lab report: “Signs associated with fentanyl toxicity include severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death. In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL.” Floyd’s fentanyl level was seven times higher.

    If first impressions via the media fooled the coroner’s office, until they examined the body, we too can be fooled at first, but change our opinion according to the evidence.

    Excited Delirium Syndrome
    An alternative hypothesis involves Excited Delirium Syndrome (EXD), a symptom of drug overdose which sometimes appears in the final minutes preceding death. EXD typically results from fatal drug abuse, in past years from cocaine or crack, more recently from fentanyl, which is 50 times more potent than heroin. Especially dangerous are street drugs like meth laced with fentanyl.

    According to an article in the Western Journal of Emergency Medicine (WJEM), 2011:[5]
    “Excited delirium (EXD) is characterized by agitation, aggression, acute distress and sudden death, often in the pre-hospital care setting. It is typically associated with the use of drugs. Subjects typically die from cardiopulmonary arrest… all accounts describe almost the exact same sequence of events: delirium with agitation (fear, panic, shouting, violence and hyperactivity), sudden cessation of struggle, respiratory arrest and death.”
    It appears that an EXD episode began when the officers tried to get Floyd into the squad car. He resisted, citing “claustrophobia” — the onset of the fear and panic phase, and “I can’t breathe” — difficulty breathing due to fentanyl locking into the breathing receptors in the brain. (Classic symptoms of EXD are highlighted in bold.) He then exhibited unexpected strength from the adrenaline spike in successfully resisting the efforts of four officers to get him into the car. When Chauvin pulled him out of the car he fell to the ground, likely due to disorientation and reduced coordination. Presumably this was when he injured his mouth and his nose started to bleed, and the police made the first call for paramedics. While restrained on the ground he exhibited agitation (shouting and hyperactivity (trying to move back and forth) for several minutes. This was soon followed “sudden cessation of struggle, respiratory arrest and death.” One hears Floyd shouting loudly as in the agitated delirium phase in this video[6]. In a later video, he becomes exhausted, and had stopped breathing as the ambulance arrived.[7]

    It appears that disorientation had already set in when the store employees went to Floyd’s car and asked him to return the cigarettes he had bought for a fake $20 bill. He refused, and they reported the incident to the police, saying that he appeared to be very intoxicated. He certainly must have been, or he would have left quickly to avoid arrest.

    Police Intervention and Intentions
    The EXD diagnosis is controversial and in some quarters is viewed as an alibi for police brutality. The WJEM authors note, “Since the victims frequently die while being restrained or in the custody of law enforcement, there has been speculation over the years of police brutality being the underlying cause. However, it is important to note that the vast majority of deaths occur suddenly prior to capture, in the emergency department (ED), or unwitnessed at home.”

    Regarding restraint, they note, “people experiencing EXD are highly agitated, violent, and show signs of unexpected strength, so it is not surprising that most require physical restraint. The prone maximal restraint position (PMRP, also known as “hobble” or “hogtie”), where the person’s ankles and wrists are bound together behind their back, has been used extensively by field personnel. In far fewer cases, persons have been tied to a hospital gurney or manually held prone with knee pressure on the back or neck.”

    This latter position is what the accused officer Chauvin was applying, although at one point the team did consider using a hobble. It has been proposed that restraint helps to forestall injury and death by conserving the subject’s energy. There are also views that restraint increases the likelihood of a fatal outcome.

    The charge sheet against Chauvin included this exchange between the two white officers on the squad:[8]
    “”I am worried about excited delirium or whatever,” Lane said.

    “That’s why we have him on his stomach,” Chauvin said.”
    According to this dialogue, Chauvin was apparently was trying to follow the protocol recommended by WJEM. Since Floyd was on his stomach, Chauvin’s knee pinned him at the side of his neck, and did not impede breathing. Commentators are referring to Chauvin “kneeling” on Floyd’s neck, or resting his weight on it. From videos it is hard to gauge how much weight he applied, but the correct procedure is just enough to restrain movement, not to crush the person.

    Chauvin and his team might not have done everything perfectly, but it is easy to underestimate the difficulty of police work, particularly in cases of resisting arrest, whether willfully or due to intoxication.

    The American College of Emergency Physicians’ White Paper Report on Excited Delirium Syndrome (ACEP, 2009)[9] notes that “a law enforcement officer (LEO) is often present with a person suffering from ExDS because the situation at hand has degenerated to such a degree that someone has deemed it necessary to contact a person of authority to deal with it. LEOs are in the difficult and sometimes impossible position of having to recognize this as a medical emergency, attempting to control an irrational and physically resistive person, … This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult.” In other words, officers need to be policemen, paramedics and public relations experts all at once.

    With a fatal overdose there is no good outcome possible, but there is no way for police to foresee that. Sometimes EXD can last longer, and it is not always fatal. Perhaps the ACEP Task Force on EXD will update their report and provide guidelines to help police identify and deal with EXD while avoiding accusations of police brutality.

    In this video[10] Chauvin continued to apply the neck restraint although bystanders repeatedly objected, and even after Floyd stopped moving. As Floyd became exhausted, it could have been reasonable to relax the restraint to see if it was really necessary. Chauvin didn’t seem to respond to the bystanders to give a medical reason for the restraint. His actions were consistent with a belief that police should restrain the subject until medevacs arrive. Videos show the police focused on restraint, never beating or striking Floyd. The restraint and verbal exchanges with Floyd are also consistent with a belief that he was resisting arrest, by refusing to get in the squad car. When he said “I can’t breathe,” they responded “You’re talking fine.” When they said “Get in the car,” he didn’t agree to.

    Subjects suffering from EXD usually resist arrest violently, which requires police to restrain them, but when police see signs of EXD, they also need to call an ambulance. It appears the police may have called for paramedics first when Floyd developed a nosebleed, then for an ambulance, which arrived after Floyd had stopped breathing.[11] .

    Videos of EXD incidents generally show subjects violently resisting arrest, and requiring multiple officers to subdue them. There is one video clip about a police departments that was trained to regard EXD as a medical and not a criminal issue, and avoid physical restraint as far as possible; the results are much better.[12]

    EXD seems to be the most likely reason why Floyd suddenly refused to get into the squad car, and began to shout and writhe on the ground. With or without EXD or police intervention, he was doomed to die quickly, even if an antidote had been immediately available.

    Fentanyl is so deadly because it acts so fast and binds so tightly to dopamine receptors in the brain — even those that control breathing, unlike other narcotics.[13] When Floyd complained “I can’t breathe,” although he was breathing,[14] and then completely stopped breathing, this was the onset of respiratory arrest, which is how a fentanyl overdose kills.

    While police work is needed to trace the source of these dangerous drugs, the problems of drug addiction and crime have deep causes and can only be contained, not solved, by the police. Whatever our society has been doing about these problems is not working.

    Right now, our civilization risks being torn apart by the passions of extremism, due to a misunderstanding. Please share this analysis, as an appeal to return to reason.
    Reviewer comment:
    “My first thought is why it has been left to you to figure this out, when we pay professional journalists to investigate these things, and why aren’t the police and politicians telling us about this.”
    A good question which gives a clue to something I’ve been wondering about. When other commentators publish within hours, why does it take me a week or two to finish an article like this? Journalists are usually under a deadline to produce stories quickly, whereas it takes a lot of research and reflection to develop an original thesis into a fair and coherent explanation of events.

    Everyone tends to have an agenda, and to look for facts to support it. Police brutality or looters running amok may be more newsworthy than a chronic problem like drug abuse. The best agenda now is to take a break to focus on facts, or else an “Excited Delirium” could become a contagion that engulfs our nation.


    Part II. The Death of Tony Timpa
    A highly pertinent question: Has there ever been a confirmed death from a knee hold before? Not finding any data by searching the Net, I posted the question on Quora.[15] One answer soon came.

    A young white man died in Dallas a few years ago, after being restrained by the police with the knee on his back. My respondent believed he suffocated, but the actual autopsy said cardiac arrest due to cocaine, overdose EXD, and stress from restraint by police officers.

    Tony Timpa had not only taken an overdose of cocaine, plus he was off his anti-schizophrenia medicine. Mental illness can also be a trigger for EXD, and according to the autopsy report, he displayed all the classic symptoms. The first phase, fear and panic, was fear of the onset of delirium itself — he himself called 911 for help. By the time the police arrived, security guards had already handcuffed him to restrain him. He was incoherent, out of control, found lying on the ground, the typical EXD position. The police pinned him down with a knee on his back for 13 minutes, saying he was at risk of rolling into the roadway, and suddenly he was dead.

    Tony Timpa died in 2016. The family got the run-around,[16] and an autopsy was not released until 2019. The body cam footage was released, which showed the police behaving callously towards the subject. The officers were originally charged with homicide, but it was found they were not at fault, charges were dropped and they were reinstated. Timpa’s case is very similar to Floyd case in many ways, and there are also many differences — the starkest of course being the intensity of the public reaction.

    Here is the text of the Timpa autopsy.[17]
    [17] https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ent/p7/a515249
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    ... as if the orchestra was at the ready for the curtains' opening...
    Last edited by Gwin Ru; 17th June 2020 at 17:17.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    He is entitled to a supposedly fair trial. He is not guilty of anything.

    Slogan at Ukranian football match:

    Free Derek Chauvin

    Yes, when the "I can't breathe" was before the pin down, what was that coming from?

    Speedball is what killed Jim Belushi, isn't it?

    The ExD is definitely real and definitely applied to the person I might have killed, that the deputies said should have been killed. Then I would have said I did it right to a judge. "Next"?

    We are the public and we are much more dangerous than the police, I cannot imagine how many civilian murders are going on unrequited these days.

    It looked like he fell over due to disorientation to me. He was obviously still alive, and, restraint is still the protocol. You don't really know if someone is going to flip out or go into OD.

    It also did not look to me like Chauvin used excessive force. He, perhaps, might have let off or noticed something as Floyd became non-responsive. Yes, it is perhaps possible to kill someone that way, but, unless someone adjusts on you very well, the neck is rather strong. Once I let someone try their choke hold on me for all they could, and it did nothing. I have also been hit by one that made me tap immediately. But this is what we call strangulation or stopping the blood. Choking the air passage
    is a bit more difficult, is very rare in fighting, and I would be willing to guess knee pressure would be prone to cause any other kind of problem before this.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Kryztian (here)


    Keeping all the things I mind that Candace Owens just said, we still need to demand justice for George Floyd, but this should inform how we go about it.
    This is an interesting, respectful and thoughtful conversation between Candace and Marc, that stems from the comments that Candace shared in this video.

    (BTW, thank you Krystian for sharing the video, I had been wondering at the time what Candace thought about what was going on, and appreciated hearing her perspective. And as a side note, I had already begun reading some of Thomas Sowell, and couldn't remember the other writers that she often mentions. I was happy to hear their names in the video you shared; Shelby Steele, and Walter Williams.)

    They each speak to the data and the issues coming from their unique perspectives.

    Last edited by edina; 29th June 2020 at 03:19.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Ahh the magic words: Thomas Sowell

    Thomas Sowell

    A war on police officers is a very real circumstance
    www.mercurynews.com


    ...
    There is a ton of blame, more than enough to go around to the wide range of people and institutions that have contributed to these disasters. In addition to the murderers who have killed people they don’t even know, there are those who created the atmosphere of blind hatred in which such killers flourish.

    Chief among those who generate this poisonous atmosphere are career race hustlers like Al Sharpton and racist institutions like the “Black Lives Matter” movement. All such demagogues need is a situation where there has been a confrontation where someone was white and someone else was black. The facts don’t matter to them.
    ...
    Link to full article here

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    Ahh the magic words: Thomas Sowell

    Thomas Sowell

    A war on police officers is a very real circumstance
    www.mercurynews.com
    Hi YoYoYo, what do you mean by the above statement, "Ahh the magic words: Thomas Sowell"

    I can't tell if your comment is genuine or if you were being sarcastic?

    Thomas Sowell is an interesting human being. He has just published his 90th book. It's about school choice.
    His life story is very interesting and he's a brilliant, widely respected economist.

    In the video conversation I shared above that's between Candace Owens and Marc Lamont Hill, they mention Killer Mike. In case people don't know who Killer Mike is, he's the man that was with the Atlanta mayor the first night of riots in Atlanta. His speech went viral at the time.



    Candace and Marc mentioned that they all read the same authors. Even though they have different political positions. I think all three of them differ. My husband just shared with me a video where evidently Killer Mike shares 15 writers he recommends that people read.

    Linking in case anyone else would be interested in seeing it. It's quite long and you're going to get a wide range of points of view. It's from last Sept.

    T.I., Killer Mike, Candace Owens, & More Talk: Black Agenda, Voting, & Donald Trump | REVOLT Summit

    Also in the conversation between Candace and Marc the Chicago riots from during the 60's came up. I had just been reading a snippet of a book the night before this interview came out that was written by a black journalist, Keith Richburg, about his 3 years in Africa, during the pivotal time in Africa of the Rwanda genocide, the Somalia famine and other key events during the nineties. It's called Out of America.

    Keith describes his experience of living during the 60's riots and the ensuing outcome of those riots on his neighborhood. It independently corroborates what Candace described in the interview at 27:09.

    There's context and perspective to be had in all of this, of expanding out and listening to people, and of historical context.

    ([Out of America] | C-SPAN.org)
    Transcript to the C-Span talk

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Candace and Marc mentioned that they all read the same authors. Even though they have different political positions. I think all three of them differ. My husband just shared with me a video where evidently Killer Mike shares 15 writers he recommends that people read.
    It wasn't 15 writers, it was 7 + the Preamble and the US Constitution. And he said, listen.

    1. Thomas Sowell
    2. Walter E Williams
    3. Antonio Moore
    4. Yvette Carnell
    5. Economic Strategy of Elijah Muhammod
    6. Marcus Garvey
    7. Political Strategy of Stokely Carmicheal

    I want to add from my own observation of this panel... get some real good business sense.
    How to build and how things affect each other long term. This may be covered in the economics related books.

    One of the women on the panel Tamika, I think is her name, (the organizer) said something that I have been thinking myself, earlier today.
    Black people are not monolithic.
    Last edited by edina; 2nd July 2020 at 06:02.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    I'm being quite genuine and there is no sarcasm.

    Thomas Sowell described exactly what is currently happening,

    People need to wake up and listen because he was very correct in an oddly specific way.

    Its like they taken his words, and inverted them.

  23. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to YoYoYo For This Post:

    Constance (2nd July 2020), edina (2nd July 2020), justntime2learn (2nd July 2020)

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