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Thread: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

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    United States Moderator Ken's Avatar
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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Just saw this and thought I'd share..

    "Love is the only engine of survival.." Leonard Cohen

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Ben Macdonald (here)
    I've been contemplating the question about whether violence is ever a solution to an act of violence, and whilst I understand the nature of humans to want to fight back against oppression, I just don't see how it's possible to achieve an outcome of peace and a more enlightened society.
    I posted an hour ago about the view from 30,000 ft. The view from 60,000 ft is that man is a very violent animal, the most violent and destructive of all living creatures.

    And squinting our eyes from that height, we can see the hypocrisy of politicians in America who condemn violent rioting while accepting the pragmatic necessity of starting unjustified wars, bombing civilians, and endorsing so many other violent, destructive outrages it'd be almost impossible to list them all.

    So if America likes to go to war, here's one right here on home soil. Right or wrong. that's what's starting to happen. From 120,000 ft, it might be societal karma.

    I've not seen a single comment from anyone, here or in any media or video, that remarks on this enormous disconnect.

    If one wants to take non-violent action, it'd be very very easy. But it would have to be extremely well-organized.
    • Sit-down protests on every major freeway entrance.
    • A national strike. By EVERYONE.
    • Anyone manning a gas station, or working at an airport, refusing to go to work.
    • Truckers and farmers blocking every highway by driving along in convoy at 5 mph.
    That'd bring the country to its knees within three days. Maybe two.

    Then, people would start talking. They'd have to.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    I get what you're saying Bill, and those methods would surely work fast.


    I just feel, that at the moment, it's unrealistic for so many people to come to the same conclusion, and act upon it, due to the fear of loosing more of their percieved securities.


    It would only take a tiny amount of the world's population to be doing the sending love type work (which has the bonus of being entirely risk free), for the whole of humanity's conciousness to shift into a more enlightened state of being (apart from the truly sociopathic, who would likely be rendered inconsequential as a result anyway).


    Humans are not, by their very nature violent IMO, it's just that we have been deliberately conditioned to be so, and the result is a massive disconnect with the very nature of our true selves.


    We are loving, creative beings (why else would we have these capacities?), who have been led into a state of fear and division, to such an extent that, for many, violence is percieved as a just solution to violence.


    The view from 12,000 ft would most probably look like societal karma, and that is precicely why we have to move out of that particular karmic cycle of destruction, into one of pure love, understanding, and compassion.
    Last edited by Ben Macdonald; 31st May 2020 at 22:42.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Ben McDonald,

    We are loving, kind, afraid, frustrated, embarrassed, angry, generous. You name the emotion. We are IT and there is nothing inherently wrong with any of these emotions. What is the quality of being loving but oblivious at the same time, though? We need to invent a word for this particular emotion. The white population, by and large, exist in this kind of place.

    And action is required to make us SEE. It's only when we have our eyes opened by a cop casually murdering someone in broad daylight....and slowly, that we snap our of our collective trance. And hopefully for longer than lullabies of love and peace as universal bromides lull us to sleep again.

    More than anything the enemy here is a 400 year history of power imbalance. How do you achieve a more even playing field if the very machinery set in place to protect the vulnerable, the judicial system, is allowed to creakily grind to a halt? Or, in the case of the police, to actively harrass and harm those most in need of support? As a minority you rise up and scare the sh** out of the dominant culture/power. That helps to even the score. Just the threat of it happening evens the score.

    Can love flow from actions that are sewn with fear? If not love, civility is more assured. Yes.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ben Macdonald (here)
    I've been contemplating the question about whether violence is ever a solution to an act of violence, and whilst I understand the nature of humans to want to fight back against oppression, I just don't see how it's possible to achieve an outcome of peace and a more enlightened society.
    I posted an hour ago about the view from 30,000 ft. The view from 60,000 ft is that man is a very violent animal, the most violent and destructive of all living creatures.

    And squinting our eyes from that height, we can see the hypocrisy of politicians in America who condemn violent rioting while accepting the pragmatic necessity of starting unjustified wars, bombing civilians, and endorsing so many other violent, destructive outrages it'd be almost impossible to list them all.

    So if America likes to go to war, here's one right here on home soil. Right or wrong. that's what's starting to happen. From 120,000 ft, it might be societal karma.

    I've not seen a single comment from anyone, here or in any media or video, that remarks on this enormous disconnect.

    If one wants to take non-violent action, it'd be very very easy. But it would have to be extremely well-organized.
    • Sit-down protests on every major freeway entrance.
    • A national strike. By EVERYONE.
    • Anyone manning a gas station, or working at an airport, refusing to go to work.
    • Truckers and farmers blocking every highway by driving along in convoy at 5 mph.
    That'd bring the country to its knees within three days. Maybe two.

    Then, people would start talking. They'd have to.


    Hi Bill, I think man's more natural state is violence, not peace. Whenever there is a school shooting, for example, I'm always surprised that others are so surprised. Jaws drop, and then the inevitable question arrives: how could that possibly happen???

    My thinking is more like, how is that not happening all the time? I think it's an absolute miracle that it isn't. It's a testimony to man's ability to civilize himself, and tame his natural tendencies. Perhaps it's a spiritual override, like you once described in the mountains when you explained how your spirit wrested control from your fearful body animal in order to save your friend's life. It's quite possible that humans are actually overachieving in this area, not underachieving. Maybe I've got it all wrong, but this might actually be the view from 150,000 feet. Maybe things could and should be much much worse than they actually seem at the moment, and despite tragedies like this one perhaps we're actually doing a much better job than we realize.

    I don't mean to sound trite and philosophical during such a tragic moment, but my point is that suffering can be parsed into 2 categories: tragedy and hell. If we can keep our heads about us during the chaos and not actively attempt to make things worse, maybe we can limit it to tragedy..and a chance still might exist for redemption. If we embrace the chaos and grow nihilistic, things will become hell, and perhaps there will no opportunity for redemption.

    I think voting and working hard and saving and being a good citizen does make a difference. It doesn't create a utopia or maybe even a fair world but it just may stop things from becoming hell. If none of it means anything then nothing means anything and perhaps we should all pack it in and start looting and setting the world on fire. I understand the reaction from the protesters, I really do, but that's the easy way out. Plus, it tends to attract groups of people who are much more interested in destruction than social issues, and the whole spirit created by the genuine protesters gets lost..and, even worse, conflated with the interests of the destructive.

    If we could do peaceful sit ins to block highway exits and so forth, and the world was forced to have a dialogue, I wonder what we'd talk about. Police brutality? Racism? Poverty? All crucially important topics, but still hacking at the branches I think. It goes much deeper than that, I think, perhaps straight into the heart of hell even. Most of us on these forums have at least a vague understanding of what that hell entails and who is operating it; we've been talking about it forever. But until the rest of the world is aware of it, how can they possibly know what to talk about?
    Last edited by Mike; 31st May 2020 at 23:10.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    As a collective people, the sight of a man forcefully ejected from this world by the chosen actions of men who stand behind a uniform, possessed by an illusion of gifted powers, which essentially is nothing more than delegated and illusory authority derived from a central force of control which feasts on evil desires—has and is reaching an accumulated state of anger, frustration and discontentment with a system that continues to disregard values and needs which each and every being holds, consciously or unconsciously, as important to their human spirit—freedom, happiness and love. How much more can actually be tolerated? What can an individual do about these oppressive systems which confines us, penalise us, disregards the uniqueness and respect of human life! How does that need to address these issues fit into this game of life; that reason many of us are here to take part in—we are here now, and must indeed remember the importance of taking part in the game of life. Does it mean the only real solution to a path of change is to engage collectively, to bring the system to a stop by the actions of all of us; to choose the actions which cause a result—the opposite to that which propelled George Floyd from this world—to create the circumstances for a response on such a grand scale that forces the powers to respond to the collective calling for change. ....(thinking aloud).

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Ken (here)
    Just saw this and thought I'd share..

    That's a beautiful thing, the county sheriff and his deputies now have the people on the street behind them, because those same people now trust he's there for them and not defending a murderer.

    Talk about changing the overall dynamic, county by county will work just fine.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    I can only hope that the world will come together for the first time in human known history, and claim their own individual freedom from a system of control. Many do so with their Soul contracts, but they never nullify the fake ones created by the established governments on this planet, they only know contract and admiral law.

    Simply intending to void THOSE agreements that you never signed to begin with? Goes a very long way... You need not file any paperwork with any agency just note your intent. And it must be from a place of love.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    For what it’s worth, this is from a friend of a friend of a friend:

    Shared from a friend of a friend on the ground in Minneapolis.

    So for those of you who are interested - I have no idea how national media is covering this - here is what is happening on the ground from my perspective. It is a long post.

    All day yesterday people were out on the street helping businesses - EVERY SINGLE BUSINESS IN UPTOWN has boarded up windows and locked down their stores. The 3rd Precinct, which burned on down Thursday night, is on the east end of Lake Street. Uptown, where we live and the 5th Precinct police station is located, is three miles west on lake street. All of Lake Street was looted on Thursday night. On Friday EVERY BUSINESS on Lake Street and adjoining commercial districts, was boarded up.

    Many spray painted murals on the plywood - let folks know they were a local or minority owned business. Essential businesses.

    Last night was by far the worst night. Protests during the day were peaceful. There was an 8:00pm curfew. Everything changed when the sun went down. There are roving and highly organized bands of anti-government neo-nazi white men cruising the city, breaking off plywood, looting stores, and then setting them fire to the buildings.

    On the Northside, which is predominately African American, the situation was much the same. Local civic groups were trying to protect local businesses and homes. there were many fires.

    The violence and destruction is NOT being driven by local people. The cars on the streets have either removed their license plates, or have out of state plates.

    Here is a post from a neighbor, "Everybody! We need to get our heads around what’s happening, Mpls and St Paul are being attacked by fascist “accelerationist” white crazies. Trying to divide & destroy us.

    Accelerationism: the idea inspiring white supremacist killers around the world -Vox"

    Expect these same types to infiltrate all of the legitimate protests happening in other cities in America. We are fighting an enemy within.

    These "accelerationists" burned down the 5th Police Precinct, our post office, every pharmacy. The Wallgreens and CVS within a few blocks of our house are still burning this morning. The grocery stores were all hit. Every bank has been hit. Every liquor store, every gas station. They have guns and accelerants.

    When National Guard show up, they disappear into the neighborhoods and have been setting fires. It is a violent game of arsonist wake-a-mole. There is no longer any fire fighting service available - overwhelmed. So neighbors are using garden hoses to put out the fires and save homes. Pictures neighbors are sharing - these are young white men, heavily armed.

    According to authorities there are over 10,000 of these "accelerationists" in the city. St. Paul arrested over 50 people last night. ALL OF THEM were from out of state. The authorities are checking phones of the people they have arrested, doing contact tracing of sorts on these people. These people are connected to right wing militia style groups with a civil/race war fantasy. They are opportunistically using the legitimate, peaceful George Floyd protests as a cover to actualize their neo-nazi fever dream.

    Gov. Walz just said, "If you know where these people are sleeping today, let us know and we will execute warrants. ____ and I were helping the owner of a commercial building up the street - a friend, and two of these guys came up to us. Wanted to know where the free food was being distributed. He gave them an address that was three blocks away. Had no idea what we were talking about - not from here.

    _____, the girls and I are fine and safe. Exhausted. Angry. We have not really slept in three days. Everyone in Minneapolis/St. Paul is the same.

    So, what to do? Our neighborhood group is meeting at the park this afternoon. I think that they will organize our neighborhood watch to patrol, try to spot fires and get them out ASAP.

    Major protests are planned for today. They want the other three police officers involved in George Floyd's murder arrested, they want the MN Attorney General, not the Hennepin County Attorney to manage the case. They want the MPD disbanded and reformed with many alternative public safety and law enforcement strategies used. But the legitimate protests will end at 8:00 pm.

    The Gov. and the mayor are calling in thousands more National Guard Troops. We already had more National Guard troops in the city than ever before. They are doing a good job but were overwhelmed last night by sheer numbers. Gov. Walz is the highest ranking soldier to have ever served in Congress and led the National Guard - he clearly sees this for what it is and will fight it. This is now a military operation by the State of Minnesota against alt-right, white nationalists and anarchists that have come into Minneapolis to use the protests against police brutality as cover for their death fantasy.

    They are trying to force authorities to use deadly force and "accelerate" the violence.

    It is dark friends.

    The other side - this morning the neighborhood is out in force helping with the clean up, re-securing businesses. Massive food distribution at community centers. People taking in neighbors whose homes were destroyed or whose neighborhood was so impacted that it is no longer habitable. _____ was in contact with students, many of whom are refugees from war torn countries, that were hearing explosions and fire and sirens - they were calling her to make sure she was okay.

    Today I will garden. My flowers are starting to really come into bloom. Vegetables coming in strong. New raised bed being built. Eat some good food. Feel grateful. Train our new puppy Ruth, who is just a pip. Take her to the lake and give her a swimming lesson. Then I'll take a nap. I think tonight will be a long one

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    I think voting and working hard and saving and being a good citizen does make a difference. It doesn't create a utopia or maybe even a fair world but it just may stop things from becoming hell. Mike

    Didn't help George Floyd.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 31st May 2020 at 23:43. Reason: corrected typo in George Floyd's name

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020


    According to authorities there are over 10,000 of these "accelerationists" in the city. St. Paul arrested over 50 people last night. ALL OF THEM were from out of state. The authorities are checking phones of the people they have arrested, doing contact tracing of sorts on these people. These people are connected to right wing militia style groups with a civil/race war fantasy. They are opportunistically using the legitimate, peaceful George Floyd protests as a cover to actualize their neo-nazi fever dream.
    --Kudzy

    So the really extreme stuff is your typical heavily armed right wing Neo-Nazi, according to your friend. Of course the tangerine Fuhrer is attempting to blame this on anti-fa. What is your take on that? And thanks for posting this. It is enlightening.

    In Canada journalists are saying Trump's declaring anti-fa a terrorist organization is a way to toss peaceful and or merely highly agitated protesters in prison. And you are saying, meanwhile actual neo-Nazis have perfected their "damage and then scatter' tactics down to a tee.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    I think voting and working hard and saving and being a good citizen does make a difference. It doesn't create a utopia or maybe even a fair world but it just may stop things from becoming hell. Mike

    Didn't help George Floyd.

    No. But it doesn't mean we should then just get rid of it all either.

    I'd say: lets hold tight to our values, and not just abandon them in a fit of "who gives a f#ck".

    Things can get much much worse than they already are. Much of that depends on what we think and do moving forward. The spirit of my post is (or was trying to be): why actively make things worse?

    People want action. I get that. But when they want it at the expense of their own self interests, I can't help but say, whoa, hang on here..let's think about this a moment. I fully understand it's an emotional reaction and emotional reactions aren't always logical; I get that and I sympathize with that, but I don't view it as an excuse to join the party

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    I'd like to weigh in with my thoughts.
    I haven't seen anyone here on this thread discuss this yet.

    As most understand, the murder was entirely avoidable.
    But not as has been expressed here so far.

    1. First, why the confrontation/handcuffs to begin with???

    It's just $20 f_cking dollars.
    You've got the guy's license plates. You can follow him anywhere and track him down. Just let him go, until your adrenaline calms down. He's not a danger to society.

    Just go to the station policemen, and talk this out with chief of police and let
    him decide how to handle this the best way.
    Again it's $20 f_cking dollars!


    2. Why did all those officers just stand around and do nothing?
    There were at least four police officers there (maybe more) with Floyd lying on the ground. You let the man stand up and treat him with dignity.

    He's not going to run away, he's handcuffed!
    You have four policemen who can easily subdue him without resorting to any
    violence!!!

    Why didn't the other police say, BACK OFF to the officer with his knee on his head right at the beginning???

    Why did they all just watch, ESPECIALLY when he was gasping for air and crying out that he couldn't breathe!!!

    ALL those officers are guilty of murder! Every single one of them!!!

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Mike,

    I agree to a point but complacency sets in really fast. Even if action is only symbolic, it works. The aggreived party or parties are showing that they are willing to follow up symbolism with a real threat, if need be. You can call that a slippery slope to Hell or restoring equilibrium. Many of the current ills experienced by the black community have made and will continue to make inroads into the white community. As poverty increases, we will all be black.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    .
    And squinting our eyes from that height, we can see the hypocrisy of politicians in America who condemn violent rioting while accepting the pragmatic necessity of starting unjustified wars, bombing civilians, and endorsing so many other violent, destructive outrages it'd be almost impossible to list them all.

    So if America likes to go to war, here's one right here on home soil. Right or wrong. that's what's starting to happen. From 120,000 ft, it might be societal karma.

    I've not seen a single comment from anyone, here or in any media or video, that remarks on this enormous disconnect.
    That is a very good point Bill. Why are we focusing so much on the actions of the protesters rather than the actions of a system and society which have brought about these very protests.

    It is almost like we have become accustomed to violence perpetrated by authority and think it justifiable. All those pretty uniforms, badges, fancy equipment and political backing can't be wrong, right?

    But if your average citizen starts fighting back, he is all of a sudden seen in the most suspicious light. He has no shiny badge to cushion people's view of him. His motives and intentions are immediately questioned.

    I know I do that sometimes. It is a hard form of conditioning to really undo and see through.

    I agree that the levels of violence are not even comparable. Protesting in the street, even violently, does not even begin to compare to what some of our 'great' nations do.

    I think also part of the reason people focus on the protesters and their actions is because that is who they identify with. We are more critical of those things we care about because we want to see them succeed.

    Great post Bill!

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Mike,

    I agree to a point but complacency sets in really fast. Even if action is only symbolic, it works. The aggreived party or parties are showing that they are willing to follow up symbolism with a real threat, if need be. You can call that a slippery slope to Hell or restoring equilibrium. Many of the current ills experienced by the black community have made and will continue to make inroads into the white community. As poverty increases, we will all be black.

    have you ever stopped performing an annoying ritual or habit only to find out a day or 2 later why you were performing it in the first place? you took it so for granted for so long that for a moment you forgot why you had even begun doing it, and are then reminded when something goes awry as a result of its absence? i kind of view our values and institutions like that in a way. it's true that they can become too ordered and tyrannical, and a bit of chaos may just be the perfect remedy in situations like that..symbolic or real or both. but imo we should maintain the structure of our institutions and values as we're actively seeking to change them(at least loosely), otherwise we risk being overcome by chaos, and a descent into hell is sure to follow. I'm cool with change and cool with protest, so long as that delicate balance between order and chaos is more or less maintained along the way

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    This is very trivial, but I found the original photo of George Floyd taken against the brick wall background. It's actually a pretty good photo, and I can understand why it's become used. It was a selfie he took of himself. It's better when it's not cropped, as it had been quite often when used in the media.

    The photo was posted on this page, courtesy of Civil Rights Attorney Benjamin Crump.


    I'm happy to share the excellent photo. But maybe now we can continue to discuss things that are important.


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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Reflecting back on my previous posts, I feel like I am perhaps philosophizing a bit too much and not getting to the heart of this.

    That being that people do not want to be treated like crap and have to struggle through their life. The vast majority of us want to be treated with some warmth, good will and thoughtfulness. We want our needs to be considered. Not to mean we want the red carpet rolled out for us, but some genuine, sincere care goes a long way.

    I often forget how important these simple things are until someone is either mean to me, or someone sends some love my way.

    When someone is nasty, it by contrast shows me the importance of being kind. Like "whoah that didn't feel nice at all, I imagine other people feel the same when treated like that".

    When someone is loving, the upliftment I get afterwards is confirmation of what matters. Like "whoah that was so nice of them, their kindness makes me want to show the same kindness to others because of how great it feels".

    If you love the person you are with, then they in turn may very well do the same to others. It is like a domino. Love changes people and gives them the best possible chance of being their best possible selves.

    Perhaps that is a bit simple minded, but maybe that is because I haven't learned fully some of these simple lessons.
    Last edited by Billy Vasiliadis; 1st June 2020 at 01:46.

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ben Macdonald (here)
    I've been contemplating the question about whether violence is ever a solution to an act of violence, and whilst I understand the nature of humans to want to fight back against oppression, I just don't see how it's possible to achieve an outcome of peace and a more enlightened society.
    I posted an hour ago about the view from 30,000 ft. The view from 60,000 ft is that man is a very violent animal, the most violent and destructive of all living creatures.

    And squinting our eyes from that height, we can see the hypocrisy of politicians in America who condemn violent rioting while accepting the pragmatic necessity of starting unjustified wars, bombing civilians, and endorsing so many other violent, destructive outrages it'd be almost impossible to list them all.

    So if America likes to go to war, here's one right here on home soil. Right or wrong. that's what's starting to happen. From 120,000 ft, it might be societal karma.

    I've not seen a single comment from anyone, here or in any media or video, that remarks on this enormous disconnect.

    If one wants to take non-violent action, it'd be very very easy. But it would have to be extremely well-organized.
    • Sit-down protests on every major freeway entrance.
    • A national strike. By EVERYONE.
    • Anyone manning a gas station, or working at an airport, refusing to go to work.
    • Truckers and farmers blocking every highway by driving along in convoy at 5 mph.
    That'd bring the country to its knees within three days. Maybe two.

    Then, people would start talking. They'd have to.
    Absolutely brilliant points of view! Unfortunately? Getting human consensus is like herding cats! And just one question (as a farmer) - why do you want me blocking the highway? I am much more useful growing veg, managing my herds and feeding my neighbors (which I do for free).
    “The World is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
    Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: The murder of George Floyd in police hands, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    And just one question (as a farmer) - why do you want me blocking the highway? I am much more useful growing veg, managing my herds and feeding my neighbors (which I do for free).
    Netherlands farmers' protests last year.


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