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Thread: Systemic Racism in America

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    United States Moderator Sarah Rainsong's Avatar
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    Default Systemic Racism in America

    Okay, so the title of the thread is probably not the best, but couldn't think of anything better. I am curious about how people really look at this, so I'd love to hear others' opinions. These questions could easily apply to many countries, but as I live in America, that's what I'm focusing on. If you'd like to chime in with your experiences from another country, of course that's welcome! But please let us know what country you're talking about.

    Do you think there is systemic racism in any institutionalized areas of America? (This would extend from the currently-much-discussed police to the medical field to the education system.) This is not about individuals, but group think and actions as well as policies that were originally made to repress and oppress races and other specific groups of people. (And of course, "races" is a misnomer, but for the sake of discussion, let's not get into that.)

    Please, don't argue with someone because they may have a different opinion than you. Just share your thoughts. Consider this more of an information gathering session, not a place to discuss or argue about how to fix anything (if anything even needs to be fixed). If you need to define some parameters for your own explanations, please do so! Detail is encouraged.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    The problem is the definition of 'systemic racism', which I would just call the 'out-group'. The lines get more and more blurred in the modern world but not so for the old, especially racially 'pure' nations.

    If that can be accepted, I would of course agree that there is systemic racism. But not against a skin color. Rather, against the common ideology of The Work Ethic, bank account accruing, busy, erratic, self-centered, greedy consumerism and unbridled capitalistic open-ended growth based mantra of the modern world. Is that a race?

    Ya, the rat race. I'm racist against rats holding competitions of any kind, it seems.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

    A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

    "X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

    When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

    Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

    I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

    As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

    But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

    The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

    I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

    Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

    The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

    And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.  

    So my main point to contribute here is that there are institutional problems that are not coming from so called "white privilege".  When the indigenous culture is fractured and finding it difficult to help each other, how in gods name are non indigenous people supposed to help.

    This is why I am deeply disappointed in the division being created from BLM because it is seriously jeopardizing and hampering indigenous people, let alone everyone else, trying to help families/groups within their communities.
    Last edited by Gemma13; 29th June 2020 at 17:33.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Sad how individual 2nd hand experiental stories are used to convey a see I said so feel to encompass a subcategory of people. I recently talked to someone who has been living here since 2 years as a student in University who said that even though the Netherlands are supposedly rather liberal and tolerant she has to deal with racist remarks and "jokes" uttered by fellow students and even teachers.

    If and when she spoke up she was portrayed as sensitive, no fun and unsociable.

    Now where have I heard that before
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    I think racism is a very real problem.

    But I resist the idea of systemic racism. No one has explained to me exactly which systems are racist and how. No one has showed me the law or policy that favors whites over blacks. On the contrary, there are quite a few laws and policies that favor blacks over whites.

    Listening to the grievances of black folks, it seems to me that we have an anecdotal racism issue, not a systemic one. Black folks are often treated with suspicion, disregard, and condescension. But as far as I can tell it's not because of anything systemic. Most black folks can tell you an anecdotal story, or several, about being mistreated by someone of a different race. But those are personal interactions, not systemic ones. There are some despicable individuals out there, but our societal systems are mostly fair I'd say.

    Even then, some passive aggressive forms of racism are often more novelty or familiarity bias among people that don't know enough about other cultures and dont spend enough time in their presence to be comfortable. It's not always deep rooted hate or discrimination that causes these things.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    I wonder if we are all "racist"....but that is not the real word I would chose. Prejudice. Maybe that is a better word.

    We are prejudiced for many reasons. Color, religion, north of the border (any border), south of the border...different. If you are "different" than the "norm" of where you live or work, you will find prejudice. My folks have lived in east Tennessee for over 50 years. They will "always" be considered "outsiders" since they weren't born in the area. That isn't Racist, per se. Color has NOTHING to do with the neighbors bias against the folks.

    I have been reading about the Racism in China. Horrible. Black, Christian, sex, etc. are all being biased against. Who knew?

    Is there systemic prejudice around the US and in the world. Absolutely. Just how bad depends on who and what is considered "abnormal".

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    @mike, how would you define systemic?
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    @mike, how would you define systemic?
    I'd be interested in Mike's answer. I'd also be interested in Sarah Rainsong's definition. (She started this thread a few hours ago.)

    I looked it up. There are many "definitions", but here are two, from this USA Today page:

    What is systemic racism?


    NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] President Derrick Johnson defined systemic racism, also called structural racism or institutional racism, as "systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantages African Americans."

    Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward and publisher of Colorlines, defined it as "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives."

    "Systemic racism is naming the process of white supremacy," Harris said.

    Harris said systemic racism creates disparities in many "success indicators" including wealth, the criminal justice system, employment, housing, health care, politics and education. He said that although the concept dates back to work done by scholar and civil rights pioneer W.E.B. Du Bois, the concept was first named during the civil rights movement of the 1960s and was further refined in the 1980s.

    Also see this thread:
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 29th June 2020 at 20:46.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Thank you

    Quote Posted by Floating (here)
    I wonder if we are all "racist"....but that is not the real word I would chose. Prejudice. Maybe that is a better word.

    We are prejudiced for many reasons. Color, religion, north of the border (any border), south of the border...different. If you are "different" than the "norm" of where you live or work, you will find prejudice. My folks have lived in east Tennessee for over 50 years. They will "always" be considered "outsiders" since they weren't born in the area. That isn't Racist, per se. Color has NOTHING to do with the neighbors bias against the folks.

    I have been reading about the Racism in China. Horrible. Black, Christian, sex, etc. are all being biased against. Who knew?

    Is there systemic prejudice around the US and in the world. Absolutely. Just how bad depends on who and what is considered "abnormal".

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    Sad how individual 2nd hand experiental stories are used to convey a see I said so feel to encompass a subcategory of people. I recently talked to someone who has been living here since 2 years as a student in University who said that even though the Netherlands are supposedly rather liberal and tolerant she has to deal with racist remarks and "jokes" uttered by fellow students and even teachers.

    If and when she spoke up she was portrayed as sensitive, no fun and unsociable.

    Now where have I heard that before


    Well, let me ask you a question: Do you like Chris Rock? Do you think he's funny?

    I do! He's genius. Love the guy. When he makes fun of white people, which he does often, no one is laughing harder than I am. I could give a f#ck. And the reason is this:much of what he says is true! There are some truths to some stereotypes, and when they are exposed in a humorous way, you can't help but laugh. It's visceral, it just comes out of you. It's like your soul's way of applauding a taboo truth.

    Do you like Dave Chappelle? He's almost universally regarded as our best living comic. And deservedly so. He's hysterical. He also makes fun of white people. Constantly! LOL. Oh, and gay people, and trans people. And women. Relentlessly

    No one is above being poked at humorously. No one. To assume one group or another is above being made fun of is simply arrogant.

    Ridicule is another matter. No one should have to endure that. If your friend is being ridiculed for her race or whatever, that's bullsh!t and it needs to stop. But if she's being humorously poked at here n there, then the best thing she should do is poke back. There is a real opportunity for growth for her there if she can manage that. Something cathartic may be waiting for her just beyond her comfort zone.

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.

    For me, it's Bill's first definition, mostly. That's how I think of it. Some people will also include some element of unconscious bias in there too. And there is bias, of course; there's all kinds of biases. But I don't lay them all at the feet of racism. That all needs to be delicately parsed out. But in today's social climate, trying to introduce this type of logic will only earn you the label of racist, or bigot, or white supremacist.

    "Systemic racism" is a murky idea and a threat all rolled into one, in the sense that no one really knows exactly what it means, but you better f#cking agree with it anyway or you're a racist.
    Last edited by Mike; 29th June 2020 at 23:12.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
    Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

    Are they all the mindless mob?

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
    Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

    Are they all the mindless mob?


    nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Systemic racism explained by Michael Wood


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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
    Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

    Are they all the mindless mob?
    nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive
    I don't understand this answer, Mike. Haven't you differentiated those who drone on endlessly about systemic racism and those who don't?

    I also want to mention that in political cartooning, particularly (this goes to your point about black comediennes imitating or making fun of white people) it is acceptable to punch up, but not down. Chris Rock makes you laugh because the imitations are not only accurate but as a white person, you aren't threatened by it.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
    Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

    Are they all the mindless mob?
    nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive
    Okay then, wow, dude I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to have to sleep on it to gain greater clarity on how to really take that.

    So nearly 100% of the voices who say there exists systemic racism, are part of the "mindless mob". Huh...
    Last edited by Gracy May; 30th June 2020 at 02:35.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
    Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

    Are they all the mindless mob?
    nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive
    Okay then, wow, dude I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to have to sleep on it to gain greater clarity on how to really take that.

    So nearly 100% of the voices who say there exists systemic racism, are part of the "mindless mob". Huh...

    Look, I can't go on www. mindlessmob.com to give you an exact number of people who don't understand the concept of systemic racism. What I'm offering is an opinion; it's not science. Imagine for a moment you told me you met lots of idiots in your life. And then imagine I followed you around all day, tapping your shoulder and demanding an exact count of them, along with the ratio of huge idiots to semi-huge idiots, and semi-huge to moderate, and so on and so forth

    I wouldn't do that because I'd understand the spirit of what you were saying. You're confusing the spirit of what I'm saying with some kind of bizarre need for exact percentages and numbers. Metaphorically, I'm trying to describe an attack by a swarm of bees coming from all directions, and you're demanding I count them while I'm trying to swat them away. Look, they're everywhere.

    But ok, here ya go: if you went outside and approached 100 people and asked them to define "systemic racism", I bet you'd get nearly 100 different answers. There would be some overlap of course, but you would get different answers from most of them. And a significant portion of those 100 wouldn't even know how to answer that question at all.

    And the irony is, the degree to which they were correct would all depend on the definition you were subscribing to, of which there are many.

    I've heard systemic racism described in many different ways. Most people can't explain it coherently because it's a bloated ball of nonsense. It's not inherently coherent. It's loaded with contradictions and meaningless, manufactured language. To accept its existence requires a suspension of logic and reason....hence, mindlessness.

    I think the people who are teaching it are akin to cult leaders. It's much more of an emotional "science" than an intellectual one. It appeals to activists and those types of groups. When bitter and resentful people group up and become emotionally charged, you have mobs. Mobs that are mindless are mindless mobs. And when they begin infecting society at large, look out.

    If you cant see those mindless mobs, it could mean you're not paying any attention at all, or it could mean you may even be part of one without even knowing it.

    The media, the universities, the professors, and increasingly corporate entities are all subscribing to the doctrine of "systemic racism". That's the mindless mob right there. And that's pretty much everyone
    Last edited by Mike; 30th June 2020 at 05:23.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Mike, Would you agree that there is systemic racism within policing agencies, the justice and prison systems? If not, why not? Black people are treated much worse than white people. That seems to be something few people would argue with.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    There is British Israelism which may be considered to involve the U. S.

    But it is more or less Harvard at the epicenter of modern Eugenics as in general Wiki information:

    Eugenics was supported by many prominent figures of different political persuasions before World War I, including: Liberal economists William Beveridge and John Maynard Keynes; Fabian socialists such as Irish author George Bernard Shaw, H. G. Wells and Sidney Webb; and Conservatives such as the future Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Arthur Balfour. The influential economist John Maynard Keynes was a prominent supporter of eugenics, serving as Director of the British Eugenics Society, and writing that eugenics is "the most important, significant and, I would add, genuine branch of sociology which exists".


    The American eugenics movement received extensive funding from various corporate foundations including the Carnegie Institution, Rockefeller Foundation, and the Harriman railroad fortune. In 1906 J.H. Kellogg provided funding to help found the Race Betterment Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan.


    In the first decades of the twentieth century, the work of the Rockefeller Foundation was decisive for the implementation of public health initiatives in Brazil, especially in the so-called public health movement. At that time, Brazilian eugenics was the same as public health, as expressed in the maxim "to sanitize is to eugenize".


    It was this global phenomenon which for example Germany re-branded to Herrenvolk; they didn't launch the concept.

    It is still being applied via the Balfour Declaration.

    We are still conditioned by Fabian World Government and Rockefeller Medicine, updating its guises.

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    Netherlands Avalon Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    Sad how individual 2nd hand experiental stories are used to convey a see I said so feel to encompass a subcategory of people. I recently talked to someone who has been living here since 2 years as a student in University who said that even though the Netherlands are supposedly rather liberal and tolerant she has to deal with racist remarks and "jokes" uttered by fellow students and even teachers.

    If and when she spoke up she was portrayed as sensitive, no fun and unsociable.

    Now where have I heard that before


    Well, let me ask you a question: Do you like Chris Rock? Do you think he's funny?

    I do! He's genius. Love the guy. When he makes fun of white people, which he does often, no one is laughing harder than I am. I could give a f#ck. And the reason is this:much of what he says is true! There are some truths to some stereotypes, and when they are exposed in a humorous way, you can't help but laugh. It's visceral, it just comes out of you. It's like your soul's way of applauding a taboo truth.

    Do you like Dave Chappelle? He's almost universally regarded as our best living comic. And deservedly so. He's hysterical. He also makes fun of white people. Constantly! LOL. Oh, and gay people, and trans people. And women. Relentlessly

    No one is above being poked at humorously. No one. To assume one group or another is above being made fun of is simply arrogant.

    Ridicule is another matter. No one should have to endure that. If your friend is being ridiculed for her race or whatever, that's bullsh!t and it needs to stop. But if she's being humorously poked at here n there, then the best thing she should do is poke back. There is a real opportunity for growth for her there if she can manage that. Something cathartic may be waiting for her just beyond her comfort zone.

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.

    For me, it's Bill's first definition, mostly. That's how I think of it. Some people will also include some element of unconscious bias in there too. And there is bias, of course; there's all kinds of biases. But I don't lay them all at the feet of racism. That all needs to be delicately parsed out. But in today's social climate, trying to introduce this type of logic will only earn you the label of racist, or bigot, or white supremacist.

    "Systemic racism" is a murky idea and a threat all rolled into one, in the sense that no one really knows exactly what it means, but you better f#cking agree with it anyway or you're a racist.
    I love Dave Chapelle, but have yet to see chris rock.
    Reason I asked was because you used the word and then said what wasn't explained a few posts ago. Thinking about how being precise matters.

    The way I understood it(and being non-english I miss loads of nuances of words) was that a part of it was more like a biased racism. The racism hidden as a joke. A cultural agreement of what is acceptible and what isn't.

    I take it you are only being jokingly insulted and generelized for being white when you watch Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle and maybe a few other times every 3 months or so?
    In the netherlands I'm sad to say I think that number is way way higher for the black community. In fact other than going looking for it in comedy shows. I don't think I ever experienced a white joke at my expense being made.

    That is how I understood systemic racism and realize now that that is almost the same as what could be a sub section of white privilige.

    I agree by the way that both terms are way to broad to be usefull anymore.
    ---
    Please leave some of your light everywhere you go.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Mike, Would you agree that there is systemic racism within policing agencies, the justice and prison systems? If not, why not? Black people are treated much worse than white people. That seems to be something few people would argue with.

    Hey Jess, there are a little over 21 million black males in the U.S. Or at least there was in 2018.

    Last year, roughly 250 of them were shot by police.

    I'd prefer ZERO being shot by police, of course. But 250 out of 21 million doesn't suggest an existential crisis to me, let alone systemic racism as I understand it. Thats .0012%. If the cops were as nasty and evil as some of the radical activists are making them out to be, that number would be way higher.

    It's true that black men are shot at a significantly higher rate than whites. And while the relative stats tell a more accurate story than the absolute stats, I still don't think you can dismiss the absolute stats which tell us that more whites are shot than blacks yearly.

    The reason blacks are shot at a higher rate than whites is a very complex and layered issue. Racism plays a role, but it's only one variable in a multilayered equation.

    As far as prisons, I think everyone gets treated like sh!t in there. It's highly corrupt and the guards are often complicit. I don't have any statistics to offer but I've been watching loads of Wes Watson videos; Wes is an ex con who spent 10 years in gladiator style prisons in California. He describes in detail how the guards mistreat the prisoners. And he doesn't make any distinctions between the way whites and blacks are treated. It's a hell for everyone.
    Last edited by Mike; 30th June 2020 at 07:34.

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