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Thread: Systemic Racism in America

  1. Link to Post #141
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Ken (here)
    Good call, Sarah. I am guilty of having ignored this thread as well. The subject is more highly fraught and polarized than I ever imagined could be the case on this Forum.
    Mod note from Bill:

    Yes. It's an ultra-sensitive topic, one of the very most there can be. But laying all emotion aside, and applying my inner Spock, in pragmatic terms it simply serves zero purpose.

    It helps no-one at all, can only fuel more fires, and isn't relevant to any legitimate human rights issue. And it's not relevant to Systemic Racism, either.

    Not even to education: education issues are really all about $$ finance and political policy decisions. Taking the risk of talking about IQ in this post (whatever "IQ" actually is!), good education, good parenting and a good socio-cultural environment can make a very wonderful human being out of anyone, or any color at all, anywhere in the world, who's no intellectual genius. That's what matters.

    Even Gary Voss (see this thread), a highly sensitive and aware man, would never include this in any poem of his.


    I did post this on the thread a week ago (3 July), thinking — wrongly! — the "IQ" thing could be dismissed. I jumped on it quite quickly, and rightly so. It was actually Catsquotl who first opened the can of worms. Orobo's thoughts were stimulated by that.

    Do read my reply.

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)

    Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
    All kinds of things could be happening, but it's important to recognize that "IQ" is really still a very crude concept, and it's actually pretty hard to quantify accurately. (I've encountered a lot of people with high measured IQs who are very dumb, unaware and limited. Many so-called "geniuses" are just good at solving puzzles, and little else.)

    Language and culture have a great deal to do with it, while there are definitely genetic predispositions to high levels of mental ability — of course. Intellectual potential is inherited, just as are other assets like strength, height, and so on. But other very variable factors include parenting (very major), early socialization (major), and early nutrition (quite major).

    The parenting thing includes early access to certain kinds of games, problem-solving toys, stimulating books, etc. Giving a toddler an iPad to watch cartoons and keep them quiet hardly cuts it when it comes to intellectual development.

    We're not going to censor anything here. Gary Voss wouldn't approve of that, either. But this issue definitely doesn't belong on this important thread.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 11th July 2020 at 14:40.

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  3. Link to Post #142
    Netherlands Avalon Member Catsquotl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    [/I]I did post this on the thread a week ago (3 July), thinking — wrongly! — the "IQ" thing could be dismissed. I jumped on it quite quickly, and rightly so. It was actually Catsquotl who first opened the can of worms. Orobo's thoughts were stimulated by that.
    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)

    Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
    It was me, however the context in which I used it was not intended to open that can of worms, merely to show that somehow children who were given more opportunity to advance in primairy school were somehow all white even when the kids picked to advance all came from a mixed pool of kids to choose from.

    To be honest I did not know there were studies who charted differences.

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    Madagascar Avalon Member silvanelf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
    Here you can see just 3 high IQ children of color ... they became chess masters before turning 13 !!

    Quote Teens Justus Williams, Joshua Colas and James Black Jr. Earn Praise As Young Chess Masters

    It rarely comes as a surprise for an African American to be the latest rising sports star, whether he’s slam dunking on the court or scoring touchdowns on the field. But cornering a king on the chess board? That isn’t so common.

    However, a trio of black teens have all become chess masters before turning 13, an achievement that’s not only rare in their sport, but virtually unheard of in the black community.

    Justus Williams, Joshua Colas and James Black Jr. are three black chess players that have obtained the difficult title of chess master at a very young age, The New York Times reports.

    The trio, each of whom are from the New York City area, is part of only 13 chess masters under age 14 in the entire United States Chess Federation.

    -- snip --

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  7. Link to Post #144
    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on wether there is systemic racism in America as I've never been to the country. If I were to hazard a guess distilled from various news reports and portrayals in film I'd be inclined to think perhaps there was, but hesitantly as I could also be wrong. Let me look a little deeper, sharing my thoughts, and see if I can come to a tentative conclusion.

    Racism is just another from of prejudice and the vast majority of humans are prejudiced one way or another, and mostly unaware of it. Like all prejudices that focus on 'people who are not us', racism is taught, or more correctly, absorbed. Most children growing up within a certain culture will learn that cultures ideologies, that's natural. Should a certain culture have an historical mistrust of a neighbouring culture the young mind will absorb that programming, in larger more widespread cultures communities and/or regions within said culture can develop mistrust of their closest neighbours, once learned it can be difficult to break free of such conditioning. A developing common sense and exposure to other ideas, such as one might find when transplanted from home to a college or university for example, grants the opportunity to hopefully re-evaluate that which was held to be true.

    Back in the late 80's, in the Northern Territory of Australia, I met a man that was rabidly racist about the Aborigines. By no means the first racist I'd encountered but what appalled me about this particular man was he would openly state his vitriolic views in front of his children. I just felt pity for them. It took many, many years before it occurred to me the man was probably a victim of exactly the same indoctrination and was blind to it. He knew he hated, he didn't know why, he just did. I must say in those days the majority of rural Aussie males I met were at least a little racist even if just by the use of common vernacular when referring to the indigenous peoples.

    Which leads to me wonder if anyone can be guilty of being a racist/prejudicial if on some level they are responding to deep conditioning from childhood. One would certainly hope the majority get to temper their views as they mature and gather various life experiences, conversely, and sadly, some will have their viewpoints reinforced. On broader levels our prejudices are deeply ingrained and all take much work to rise above. I had to take a hard look at my own views when searching for prejudices that I hold and ultimately could only find a large distaste for the so called upper-classes. Those with inherited money in particular, the ones that are sent to the bizzarely named 'public' schools and are earmarked for careers in politics and high powered jobs.

    So, Sarah Rainsong, does systemic racism in America exist. Within certain individuals and certain groups of individuals it probably does but then it would no longer be systemic. I would not say all police, all judges for instance, but I could believe that some police, some judges, some politicians, some employers etc, have very strong prejudices.

    I would think our biggest problem now is how easily our prejudices can be manipulated through the media, and what seems a determined drive to alienate every group from any healing and drive everyone further apart. Who would have thought that a very old subterfuge such as divide et impera could be so successfully used in our modern age.

    PS: The Bell Curve is the biggest load of tripe, but sure you can find scientists who will verify its findings - as they are reinforcing their own prejudices.
    Last edited by Ewan; 12th July 2020 at 11:59.

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  9. Link to Post #145
    Avalon Member Orobo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    Quote Posted by Orobo (here)
    Let's take a purely rational look, because we have to, not to get caught up in trivial drama. Yes, let's do that.

    I look at it like in nature. There are many races of dogs for example and their qualities differ greatly. One is good in the handbag of a Russian hooker, the other for searching Scandinavian bears on a hunt. Humans are very likely the same. There is no "better", just different.

    The little lapdog wouldn't have a happy and productive life alongside the Karelian bear-dogs in the mud and sleet. Maybe the Karelians would not be happy the lapdog is eating from their bowls....bla bla bla, you get the point.

    This could be the allegory for muslims/Africans in Europe/US. The society is made by and for Europeans with their qualities. The migrants couldn't, on average, hang in there with the rest. That is also what the stats show. And surely they resent that, maybe rightly so.

    So right here, you suggest that "migrants" or non-Europeans (aka. non-white) simply can't handle European (aka. white) society.

    It demands rational and abstract thinking to keep oneself on the right track. Happy, positive and productive in such an alien environment. There are many that have trouble with that in their own culture.
    From the first generation to the next, and the next, till now the fourth and fifth generations of migrants things turn more and more ugly. A more than linear uptake in crime, disengagement in society, and stuck in the brain- and self-worth rotting welfare-trap. It makes for some very unhappy people. But it seems this is the whole point.

    The reason that non-whites are unhappy are because they are in a white society? They are not in "their own culture" so things "turn more and more ugly"?

    For now comes the Wormtongue: "It is not your fault, it is the racist whites". Most migrants come from cultures where linear, rational and abstract thinking is not a virtue. Freethinkers are shunned or killed. So it is bred out of people by a punishing conformity, over many many generations.
    Dump those here, under false pretences, like we have heard in the migrants own words, and they are being played. They are tools or weapons, frankly. Thát is racist, of the most most evil kind.

    What are you saying here? It sounds to me like you are proposing what I have bolded, but maybe, considering the following sentences, you're arguing against it? In any case, what is bolded is just wrong and appalling.

    Some here on Avalon are aware of videos where the perpetrators of said "human dumping" are openly talking about how and why they do that. Rife, is the word. There are even compilations of those "from the horses mouth"-quotes. It goes on for hours on end. Amazin'.

    The human, as a tribal species, is built, through evolution, to recognise the smallest differences in facial traits. To safeguard themselves and the tribe. Are them strangers?
    The human dumping naturally fires up the uneasiness of the original folk in those countries. This counts also for the US, even though the black population started out as slaves.
    Look at the White flight, when black people come to their neighbourhoods.
    So, of course, the whites try to keep to their own. Resisting hiring a black person, as an example, is only a natural reaction, but only a detail when seen in the bigger picture of big, real racist policies. Economical or political.
    Think about the HUD programs where the (white) ethnicities of neighbourhoods are forcibly broken up by moving black or brown people there. This happens here in Europe also.

    People do tend to be mistrustful of what they are not familiar with, but that is only indirectly related to race. Are you suggesting that people should just follow the easiest, most familiar path and engage in segregation? What is enlightened about that?

    There are overtly racist policies, like diversity quotas against the white population. Or hidden, like the welfare programs.
    Nixon said something like:"Now we have bound up the black vote for 150 years", when the welfare state came into being. There is a lot more to find about that. It has been an evil plan from the beginning, the welfare state. In principle. The black community was doing actually great up to that point, rising into the middle class quickly. Stopping the rise by taking money from society to lock them up "on the new plantation" like Candace Owens says. Laying the ground work for resentment. On all sides.

    Okay, so racist policies (aka systemic racism) lays the groundwork for resent. Yeah, I can agree with that.

    It is like in Europe. Take from the Europeans and give it to the migrants, who will keep up making many babies, like in Africa or the Middle East. Diversity hiring, lower punishments for similar crimes etc etc That is very racist, but presented as something good and responsible. Under threat of being called a racist. Upside down world.

    Now the migrants in Europe, or the black people in the US are legion (pun ), by systemic racist policies from the 60 and onward, Critical Theory can stoke the fires of said resentment.
    Humans are easily led towards that easier route of resentment, through entitlement for example.

    WTH does "making many babies" have to do with anything? Where does that come from? The concern that the non-whites will out-breed whites is something I've only directly encountered in patriarchal, white Christian supremacy. Why are you even mentioning that here? What does that have to do with the point of your post?

    I cannot attest to Europe, but here in America, there is most assuredly NOT lower punishments for non-whites who commit crimes.

    What I describe here is a "systemic racism" of a different kind, on another level preceding the currently used one, that is there to make the brown and black folks hate the whites, in who's societies they live.

    So the non-whites hate whites because they live in white society... and they shouldn't? Because they're BRED not to?

    Being able to see all this, and working through ones own resistance consciously, concerning these workings demands a mental capacity for abstract thinking, and a curiosity that is possible within the individualistic, creative and free culture of the Europeans. What is needed for that is raw mental capacity, called "G". Commonly described by IQ.

    So only smart people are going to be able to understand that non-whites do not belong in a white society?

    These are capacities that, according to scientific testing, are not readily available on average, in some other cultures and (sub-)races of humans. Especially the cultures that are being used as weapons against the ethnic European cultures. Not my idea, just relaying the words of people doing this...both the scientists or the evil-doers in casu.

    Scientific testing...the same scientific community that promotes vaccines? That insist that there's not such thing as aliens or ET or anything outside of reductionist thinking?

    Non-whites do not have the "capacity" for "abstract thinking" "curiosity" "individualist thinking"? They just don't have the "raw mental capacity"?

    George Soros: I am going to bring down the United States by funding Black Hate groups. We'll put them into a mental trap and make them hate White people. The Black community is the easiest to manipulate. (2014)is a quote.

    I think it is clearly a trap to bind up society in a troubled "systemic racism, see, Whites are bad" while the real "primary racists" wring their hands in delight.
    So what if many European people find their way out of their programming and dare/manage to see the big picture, which is not easy, there is still the weaponised folks that need to come to the realisation that being brothers is the only way to get out of this bind. Or plain civil war.
    I am afraid that the natural differences between the different peoples are big enough for the controllers to keep everyone running. Hustling with the inborn reactions of a variation of folks.

    It is so sad to see the black community being led to burn all their bridges to the real direction where their freedom is. And ours too!
    I think that direction is where the ethnic Europeans thrive. It is thóse, and ONLY those, people that collectively has found the universalist insights that led them to see slavery is not good.
    They worked endlessly, against all resistance to buy free or set free by other means the slaves.

    That one-eyed king has to be killed it seems, by the blind masses, for the the two-faced to take over the throne.

    You are attempting to set yourself up to be the advocate of non-white people, but what you really have done is reveal a deep-seated, highly biased white supremacy view.
    This is NOT OKAY, folks! I am deleting the original post and leaving this here for now, because everyone needs to understand that trying to argue that non-white people do not belong in white society is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    I am further locking this thread until Bill or one of the other more seasoned moderators can check this out.

    Like I wrote, it is a dispassionate look. Calling a spade a spade.
    I will have to go through your reactions and react myself if that is what you want.
    I am not an evil racist guy, quite the opposite. I can put aside my propagandised self and look hard at what lies in fornt of me and compare it to data form science and observations from myself and family living in many European countries. We all see what happens, but dare we say it.
    And, be assured, most observations, or timid conclusions are based on averages...things that happen/are in general. Nothing is absolute.
    And, yes there is data that I haven't seen. So I can be wrong too. But we can talk about it!

    Love, O.

  10. Link to Post #146
    United States Moderator Sarah Rainsong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Orobo, you are basically saying that since systemic racism exists, we should just not have mixed societies.

    First, you're making the mistake of putting whites at the top, which is not only arrogant and ignorant, it is highly offensive.

    Second, that's impossible. Even if it was like that at some point in our global history, there is no way it's going to happen now.

    Third, the idea of isolating people into groups to make "peace" is the given motivation behind many genocidal dictators as well as the plot of a host of apocalyptic movies. It does not advance humanity--it devolves it.

    ALL of humanity is ONE RACE. We need to learn to get along, to come together, to appreciate our differences... NOT cater to the lowest denominator and segregate into various "racial" groups. Not only do we need diversity to survive, we need it to advance.

    I am going to ask that you abstain from posting further in this thread. Please visit All about "IQ" (whatever that means!) and consider the various types of intelligence discussed there. Feel free to post on that thread and anywhere else, but you are missing a very big part of the picture here.

    Quote Posted by Orobo (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    You have a very strange take on things. I wonder how it would advance all of our freedom to look at collective IQ scores that arrive at wrong conclusions, including that the average "African" is borderline retarded and nothing can be done about it, not diet, not better schooling, etc..etc...

    That is a fair question. How does it advance their freedom? And what difference does it make to you? You seem to be arguing for a white European ethno-state here.
    Thanks, I appreciate the question.

    Well, for one, it punctures the "it is bigotry, and only bigotry so now we take down western civilisation and kill all the whites" scam.

    The whites, mostly the christians, who as the single culture have come to the conclusion slavery is bad and worked hard to change it. With money and blood.
    The Whites who are involved in environmental projects, cultural projects because they have a great deal of empathy for other beings outside of their in-group or direct vicinity, and produced a surplus to be able to go and help others. That seems quite unique.

    Secondly it gives back agency to the black community. It is so horribly racist and destructive, to take that away. Sure there are things they can do. Look at how well things went before the 60s. They are human beings too, that can find a way to make it work. Both in the US and in Africa.
    Playing them on their lower motivations (fear, envy, lust etc...) traps them in anger, which is the opposite of freedom. It is quite easy to to with whites too, so Soros is right about that the black community is the easiest to rile up. Acknowledging those facts give insight in how to deal with the challenges.

    I like to play with the thought that total psychopaths deal with us like, well, cattle for example. How to manage the herd to get the result they would want.
    Birth-control by pills and abortions ( yeah, who was that I wonder?) and using the different qualities of the stocks against each other. They know us in and out, and use it for what it is worth.
    Getting the scientific knowledge front and center is of great help because it make us more aware of the tactics that can be used against us.

    Knowing your own strengths and weaknesses is half the victory. That is all.

    About the white ethno-state...I don't know. The more homogenous the people in a country the more peaceful it is. Less resources get used up on schooling and special programs. Less differences in status/class/wealth, so less envy, distrust.
    The distrust and its eroding function on civil society is well documented through many decades. Less playing outside ( cocooning it is called) which leads to less exercise/more fat and unhealthy children and adults= healthcare costs rise.
    Less friendly people on the streets means more crime and even less happy interactions on the streets= rising costs of policing/detention and fall of real estate prices.
    So everyone loses. Also trust in between people of their own ethnic group goes down.
    It is all vey clear and very simple. Migration ruins quality of life for all.
    Paying forth the cultural peculiarities of the host-country gets more and more of a problem and will be removed totally in the end, like we see now.

    I am not sure if diverse countries can be made to work again, it does not look good.

    And less differences that can be used to play off sides against each other...political power is a difficult thing to handle for humans, so I am afraid that is so easy to misuse.

    Is this a plea for ethnic homogenous countries? It is condemned widely and fiercely but when I write this I feel it might be better if my country would thank the guest-population for their stay and send them back, with the knowledge that a better society, if they miss that, can be built in their home country. It could be a motivation to make it less ****holey. And we could help them. We should, and I am shure we will. I would, that's how racist I am.

    It is also documented that the northern climates are not doing the peoples from warm countries any good. That works on a profound level. It throws off the chemical balance and makes for miserable humans.

    The situation now is so bad, and getting worse, that it would be better for most to reverse the willed changes in our societies, made by evil people to ruin and enslave all.

    I'll throw in a little personal anecdote... When I moved here, form one white western country to another. I did that for positive reasons, I loved it here. But, even though, there is an unstoppable and pretty hard learning curve. Who am I, why did I do this? The small differences in how the locals communicate and their customs became very irritating. The trap of judging them hard, as weak and coward was there for some time. The frustration was big, before I found peace.

    Others that had made the same move as me had the same deep frustration, even the ones that moved when they were only 3 years of age.
    So I know, it must be very difficult for them from a muslim or African country. With their ethnic peers echoing the same frustration that turns to hate. I haven't even talked about the religious aspects that augment the troubles I describe.
    I feel it is almost insurmountable. So the soil is very very fertile for the intersectionalitists. That is exactly why ethno-nationalist ideas are condemned I think. It might be the solution.

    Love, O.
    Quote Posted by Orobo (here)

    Like I wrote, it is a dispassionate look. Calling a spade a spade.
    I will have to go through your reactions and react myself if that is what you want.
    I am not an evil racist guy, quite the opposite. I can put aside my propagandised self and look hard at what lies in fornt of me and compare it to data form science and observations from myself and family living in many European countries. We all see what happens, but dare we say it.
    And, be assured, most observations, or timid conclusions are based on averages...things that happen/are in general. Nothing is absolute.
    And, yes there is data that I haven't seen. So I can be wrong too. But we can talk about it!

    Love, O.

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    United States Avalon Member rgray222's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Thomas Sowell says concept of systemic racism 'has no meaning,' warns US could reach 'point of no return'

    Economist says left's use of phrase recalls 'propaganda tactics of Joseph Goebbels'

    Economist and author Thomas Sowell told "Life Liberty & Levin" in an interview airing Sunday evening that the left's claim that America is beset by "systemic racism" has no definitive meaning and cannot be "tested" in any empirical manner.

    American economist and social theorist who is currently a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

    "You hear this phrase, 'systemic racism' [or] 'systemic oppression'," host Mark Levin told Sowell. "You hear it on our college campuses. You hear it from very wealthy and fabulously famous sports stars. What does that mean? And whatever it means, is it true?"

    "It really has no meaning that can be specified and tested in the way that one tests hypotheses," answered Sowell, who added that the currency of the phrase reminds him of the "propaganda tactics" of Nazi Germany, where Sowell claimed that if a lie was "repeated long enough and loud enough" it would be widely believed.

    Sowell agreed with Levin's theory that most who have taken part in protests across America in recent months do not live in the communities they claim to support, but only go there to "hand out turkeys" at Thanksgiving and live among the people they claim are oppressors.

    "They're absolute hypocrites," the host said. "They claim they want equality for all. They claim that there'll be the withering away of the ... police departments ... and yet every time you look at a Marxist state, it is an authoritarian, top-down, centralized police state."

    Sowell chimed in that while activists claim to be casting off racial and class differences, they only end up creating their own "nomenclature" and establishing their own hierarchies.

    Source: https://www.foxnews.com/media/thomas...has-no-meaning

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