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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Regarding definitions, I think the first half of this excellent new interview of Jon Stewart by Joe Rogan (before they move on to other things) may cover at least some of this quite well.


    The term "systemic racism" is never used in their most interesting conversation (all of which I emphatically agree with), but Jon Stewart very eloquently (and seriously) describes how angry he's become. It's clear what he's describing, and it's real.

    "Systemic racism" (to refer to the title of this thread) is only a subset of the larger issue [my paraphrase], which is the relentless and mounting financial oppression of regular American people. But blacks often become specially disadvantaged. I can see that crystal clearly.

    The inequities are multiple and huge, some of them have now been in place for generations, and the system is essentially corrupt and financially class-based. It really is broken. But it's very hard to see how it can all be reformed without the entire country being dismantled. (And that might happen.)

    (Chris Martenson makes the same points in many of his recent videos, and he's crushingly critical of the factors that have been laid in place, he claims deliberately, to set the scene for all the current problems.)

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Well Jayke, you’re quite compelling at pointing a distorted finger of guilt at everyone with whom you disagree, but the big blue ribbon you give your own contribution, is nothing but a supposed debunking with an opinion piece by Thomas Sowell.

    How about giving us a little bit more than a copy/paste of what you’re demanding?
    Pointing a distorted finger of guilt

    You can try and gaslight as much as you like Gracy, but you wont be able to find an exact qoute from me where I’ve ‘pointed a distorted finger of guilt‘ at anyone. I only ever point to the objective facts and evidence.

    The whole point of my posts is that the definition of ‘systemic racism’ is defunk, because as Bill and Ernie both pointed out above, the whole system is corrupt, blaming white people for that systemic corruption is where the distorted finger of guilt gets pointed in the wrong direction. Trying to scapegoat one race of people for the problems of an entire system is a form of racism.
    Last edited by Jayke; 1st July 2020 at 18:53.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Systemic Racism: Racism by design? That is how understand it so I ask myself who designed it, when and for what purpose? Think about it and we might be able to come to a logical conclusion. Though I observe how it is being used.

    It is being pushed upon the have-not as a war cry against the have as a mean to divide and weaken the mass.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    "Systemic racism" (to refer to the title of this thread) is only a subset of the larger issue [my paraphrase], which is the relentless and mounting financial oppression of regular American people. But blacks often become especially disadvantaged. I can see that crystal clearly.

    The inequities are multiple and huge, some of them have now been in place for generations, and the system is essentially corrupt and financially class-based. It really is broken. But it's very hard to see how it can all be reformed without the entire country being dismantled. (And that might happen.)
     
    Political parties exist to help the downtrodden and disadvantaged. What would happen if there were no disadvantaged people? Political parties exist to help victims. What would happen if there were no victims? Political parties create the downtrodden, the disadvantaged, and victims. This unholy and unspoken truth is a worldwide phenomenon, not just one happening in the USA. The fact the black lives matter is mutating (intentional choice of words) into a political party right before our very eyes is living proof that political parties exist to help the perceived victims.

    Once you have your victims and downtrodden then you need billions and billions of dollars to fix the problems that you actually created but no one stops long enough to think and figure it out. We are all too busy arguing over systemic racism rather than looking a bit deeper for the real villains in this story. If you're not arguing about racism then you might be out tearing down statues. It is all diversion, sleight of hand. Being "woke" to every little issue on the planet is a complete waste of time. We need to be awakened to a much broader picture of who is responsible for and why have these problems perpetuated  

    Immigration created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
    Inner-city schools, created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
    Poverty created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
    Hunger created 100% by politicians. Imminently solvable.
    Energy created 100% by politicians. imminently solvable.
    Climate Change/Global Warming - This issue politicians are using for personal wealth and career aspiration. This is a solvable issue.

    When I say poverty and hunger are solvable I mean that we have enough resources on the planet so that no human should ever be hungry or live destitute.

    If we simply stop arguing amongst ourselves long enough to see the world clearly we could begin to solve the unsolvable. If we start looking a bit deeper and connect the dots we could begin change. I don't believe it is necessary, but, I do believe that everything will be broken before we can make the necessary changes.
    Last edited by rgray222; 1st July 2020 at 21:07.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    The Immigration, etc., issues may be "created" by politicians, but this is mainly because they listen to vested interests, or Capitalists, so it perhaps is more accurate that Capitalists created the issues using politicians as drone workers.

    Under the terms of the Constitution, if there was no such thing as privatized central banking, real estate, mortgage, and so forth, the resources at the very least could not be hogged in this manner. The Constitution is not for Democracy or Capitalism. Everything seems to keep pointing at the same main issues, which, historically, have this one known solution.

    Reverting or phasing back to that system might not necessarily "dismantle" the country, but it would pull a lot of plugs. One of the long-standing fears has always been what if social benefit payments were ever more than a couple days late. I am not sure what would happen if they are removed entirely. Part of the motivation might be for "accumulated capital" to "protect itself" by funding private charities that actually work.

    That would be more like holding a riot at someone's head and they have to answer by satisfying your demands.

    Going after the police and the "isms" is like rioting around their shoes and they will just find another rotten fruit to keep you at bay.

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    Angry Re: Systemic Racism in America

    First of all, if you are angry, take a deep breath and analyze why. We are here for discussion. This is not a competition, and no one is going to "win" or "lose."

    Basically, I'm hearing some people say that systemic racism is real, to varying degrees. Others say there is no such thing as systemic racism, only systemic corruption.

    As far as what systemic racism is, "systemic racism" is an adjective plus a noun, and as such carries a specific meaning. Getting right down to that literal meaning, here's a list of quick definitions:
    • System - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network
    • Systemic - relating to a system
    • Racism - [my paraphrase] having a negative view or taking negative actions against a person or group because of their race
    • Bigotry - intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
    • Supremacy - the belief of being superior to all others
    • Prejudice - preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience

    Some words have changed meaning over time (like "gay") but not these, so let's not try to redefine words. (Sorry, Orbo, I'm 100% on board with celebrating our differences, but "racism" is not a good thing.)

    So IMO, systemic racism is therefore racism that is built into a system. It's not about individual acts--that's just straight up racism. It's about a system that supports and perpetuates racism.

    Also, it is important to clarify that systems do not equal individuals. Take corporations, for instance. If you work in a corporation (a system), then you are aware that there are nuances and unspoken rules and even created rules where if one wants advancement, they have to follow those rules. Even if the corporation as a whole is considered bad (for whatever reason), any given person in that corporation is most likely a decent person just trying to get by!

    Historically, there has been systemic racism. Consider the Native Americans and the laws (hence, system) and actions (by the government, again system) that were directed at them, as a race, and ultimately led to genocide.

    Another example is Jim Crow laws, which were often enacted by state and local governments (again, system) that specifically targeted black people as a race. (Keep this in historical context, regardless of what people think or do now, "black" as a race was exactly the intent and view of people when these laws were placed.)

    Of course, these are only a couple of examples in American history. There are many other examples of systemic racism from history across the globe. So systemic racism has existed, and to know what it really is, we have only to look to history.

    Does it still exist? Has it changed? Has it morphed into something that is no longer racism?

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    I've really gone down the rabbit hole these last couple days, and dug into things like critical theory, which is crucial to understand when discussing something like systemic racism, imo, because the genesis of this type of language reveals the true intent behind it and provides the proper context from which to properly judge it all. But critical theory is such a sprawling, layered topic that it would actually require a thread of it's own. Maybe I'll start that thread.

    But for now...
    I can work with the definitions provided by Sarah. We have to start somewhere, and that seems a reasonable place to start.

    The implication of systemic racism, to me, is infection. Top to bottom infection. That's what that phrase suggests to me...that all our systems and institutions have this racism and bigotry and bias kind of baked right into them, and to undo it all we must deconstruct (deconstructionism) and criticize (critical theory) all it's shadowy elements in order to identify all the problematic bits so we can then extract and remedy it all with heavy doses of inclusivity and diversity and equity.

    That's a pretty crude, abridged version of things, of course. But that's the narrative I keep hearing in the media and in my research.

    My first question would be: which systems and institutions are racist?

    And my second question would be: exactly how are they racist?

    The Native Americans were treated abominably by the European settlers. It's a shameful, inexcusable, and evil atrocity. The exact same could be said about the early African Americans that were forced into slavery. Those are obvious historical examples. But which systems currently are biased towards whites and discriminate towards blacks?

    If I'm wrong about this systemic racism thing, I'll own it 150%. I would really like to know if I am wrong, so I can stop being wrong and get on the right side of things. But first I'd need to have those 2 simple questions answered. And until now no one has really answered them.

    The other element of systemic racism that is frequently evoked is unconscious bias. People have all kinds of biases, so there is some truth to this. But where I begin to get uncomfortable is when all these biases get laid at the feet of racism and racism alone. And where I begin to get really uncomfortable is when I hear about things like mandatory bias training, which to me sounds a lot more like political reeducation. Attempting to chase ghosts in people's minds and replace them with notions of group guilt is a very very dangerous game.

    So, just so everyone knows where I'm coming from: I'm all for equal opportunity for all creeds and colors; I'm all for compassion and love; I'm all for making the world a better place for everyone. I'm on the side of peace and understanding. I'm on the side of free speech and free expression. And I want to offer as much of my attention as I can to anyone with a legitimate grievance. But I need to know exactly what those grievances are first. I need to know which systems are racist and why. And even if we assume the worst about everyone's biases, exactly what in the hell can we do about that short of political brainwashing?
    Last edited by Mike; 1st July 2020 at 23:31.
    [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4xh8I9XuUg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4xh8I9XuUg[/URL]

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Well Jayke, you’re quite compelling at pointing a distorted finger of guilt at everyone with whom you disagree, but the big blue ribbon you give your own contribution, is nothing but a supposed debunking with an opinion piece by Thomas Sowell.

    How about giving us a little bit more than a copy/paste of what you’re demanding?
    Pointing a distorted finger of guilt

    You can try and gaslight as much as you like Gracy, but you wont be able to find an exact qoute from me where I’ve ‘pointed a distorted finger of guilt‘ at anyone. I only ever point to the objective facts and evidence.

    The whole point of my posts is that the definition of ‘systemic racism’ is defunk, because as Bill and Ernie both pointed out above, the whole system is corrupt, blaming white people for that systemic corruption is where the distorted finger of guilt gets pointed in the wrong direction. Trying to scapegoat one race of people for the problems of an entire system is a form of racism.
    That’s the joke of the patriarchy Jayke, it always has been, the systems that are developed often don’t end up supporting the very people they were intended to. As you’ve identified, success culture is now dominated by the Chinese and Japanese since their commitment to education far exceeds our own. The same thing happened when the education system was established for boys, girls ended up thriving in the structured environment and boys resisted.

    As to your previous questions regarding a definition of systemic racism, I did provide one earlier, as did Ernie, but I guess everyone skipped that. Systemic racism is when one culture establishes the rules, laws, mores, values and so on of a society that support their culture leading to their advancement, success and well being at the expense of others. This often leads to the denigration and eradication of other cultures which may exist in that society.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    Quote If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
    If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
    If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.
    So on this train of thought, talking about white privilege you're a white supremacist. Yeah anyone who uses that broad brush stroke of 'white priviledge' in my opinion is a rascist.

    Oh and using the term Uncle Tom in relation to Candace Owens is racist as well, who do you think you are to tell her how she thinks autumn.
    Having been quite confused about how this could be misconstrued as being racist (Uncle Toms) when it is a term used to deride sell outs within the black community, I looked up the term and found I had the modern definition right. I can only assume it is considered an insult because it may be too broadly applied....like if a black person works for a white person, in any capacity. I think it is completely appropriate to describe Candace Owens this way but in the interest of protecting racially sensitive members, like yourself, I will use the term, "sell-out" in the future.
    I grew up in a mixed neighborhood.

    At my school we were about 1/3 black, 1/3 white and 1/3 hispanic.

    At some points, as a white I was actually in the minority. Sometimes, I was the only white person on the bus.

    I'm familiar with black culture, and the terms, Uncle Tom, coon, house boy, ect... These slurs are used within the black community to try to keep black people in their place. Almost every black person who has lifted themselves from poverty and off the street, to attend university, own a business, buy a home, try to leave a gang (which is a very dangerous thing to try to do in some gangs) gets called these names.

    It's not just a racial thing, it also a class issue.

    It happened to me, when I left home and joined the Air Force at 17 years old. When I came back home for a visit, people I knew my whole life, people who were like family to me, ostracized me, accusing me of trying to be a richy. My crime, I was wearing business casual clothes.

    Van Jones has been called an uncle tom. Right now, there are about a dozen strong intelligent people running for political office and they are all accused of being uncle toms and coons, in the comments below their social media accounts.

    During the recent protests, black police officers are often singled out and verbally abused because they are black, often using these racial slurs.

    When talking about systemic racism, there's this aspect of it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. I call it the crab effect.

    It comes from the story of how crabs in a cage will kill a crab that has figured out how to escape the cage to freedom, often times ripping it apart before it can climb out of the hole at the top of a crab cage. There's some neurological aspects behind this behavior, it happens all across the animal kingdom, and it happens in humans, too.

    You're obviously unfamiliar with the term, uncle tom, and how it is used on the street. I'm curious as to why you to chose to use it to begin with?
    Last edited by edina; 2nd July 2020 at 00:06.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Systemic racism doesn't present in manual form. If you want to be an RCMP officer up North, you aren't required to pass a test in how to beat up Innuit people. However, it happens and apparently pretty frequently, from my own personal experience. The systemic part is this...when one officer starts to beat up someone who is already cuffed or peaceful and other officers don't intervene, or don't report. And that is due to the nature of comraderie and an unwritten code that is, btw, supported by higher ups.

    If death occurs, the incident is investigated by the RCMP, and charges are not laid, the officer gets a paid time off. (See vacation) That is systemic oppression

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    First of all, if you are angry, take a deep breath and analyze why. We are here for discussion. This is not a competition, and no one is going to "win" or "lose."

    Basically, I'm hearing some people say that systemic racism is real, to varying degrees. Others say there is no such thing as systemic racism, only systemic corruption.

    As far as what systemic racism is, "systemic racism" is an adjective plus a noun, and as such carries a specific meaning. Getting right down to that literal meaning, here's a list of quick definitions:
    • System - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network
    • Systemic - relating to a system
    • Racism - [my paraphrase] having a negative view or taking negative actions against a person or group because of their race
    • Bigotry - intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
    • Supremacy - the belief of being superior to all others
    • Prejudice - preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience

    Some words have changed meaning over time (like "gay") but not these, so let's not try to redefine words. (Sorry, Orbo, I'm 100% on board with celebrating our differences, but "racism" is not a good thing.)

    So IMO, systemic racism is therefore racism that is built into a system. It's not about individual acts--that's just straight up racism. It's about a system that supports and perpetuates racism.

    Also, it is important to clarify that systems do not equal individuals. Take corporations, for instance. If you work in a corporation (a system), then you are aware that there are nuances and unspoken rules and even created rules where if one wants advancement, they have to follow those rules. Even if the corporation as a whole is considered bad (for whatever reason), any given person in that corporation is most likely a decent person just trying to get by!

    Historically, there has been systemic racism. Consider the Native Americans and the laws (hence, system) and actions (by the government, again system) that were directed at them, as a race, and ultimately led to genocide.

    Another example is Jim Crow laws, which were often enacted by state and local governments (again, system) that specifically targeted black people as a race. (Keep this in historical context, regardless of what people think or do now, "black" as a race was exactly the intent and view of people when these laws were placed.)

    Of course, these are only a couple of examples in American history. There are many other examples of systemic racism from history across the globe. So systemic racism has existed, and to know what it really is, we have only to look to history.

    Does it still exist? Has it changed? Has it morphed into something that is no longer racism?
    I appreciate this post as it does have some excellently objective ways to ground discussion.

    I absolutely see systemic stratification of power (hence access to resurces real like money and intangible like values of learning and skill development). The ability to build genertional wealth is only temporary and people have their ongong "great depressions" where they slide down in power.

    The hierarchy of power is IMO the same feudal system we always have had as the Patriarchy. In layers of power, we are ruled from the "TOP" (who IS that is the rabbit hole many have explored). We accept being ruled by "something" with greater authority. This is an important point. Belief in the feudal system being real and maybe necessary.

    The widest spectrum of everyone is all the bottom of the pyramid. Power shifts little on the bottom unless a major upheaval happens. Race sex and class in OLDE England was mightily disturbed by WWI. Used to be there that only those BORN into the gentle folk ruled the rest.

    In the USA we said NO NOBILITY but created it anyway (white men). Believing that some people are intrinsically more valuable by way of their sex (gender), their race (blood), their religion, their "whatever" is inculcated by programming. This is the system of the Patriarchy IMO underneath all the individual cases. The ones at the BOTTOM are most susceptible to self hate which leads to harm self and others. IMO FRANKLY we are all at the bottom or threatened by the fall back to the bottom which is exactly what is intended.

    How do we exit? First we have to examine our subconscious programming. This world is what we created by thought and we think FOR the Patriarchy in so so many ways. I at this point am ready to EXIT. It is a very surprising experience to accept that we ourselves expect to have certain experiences and then they HAPPEN. We believe it ourselves.We are like the fish who cannot see the water they swim in. Our very self "SYSTEM" is responsible for the belief structure that holds up the pyramid.

    We have been lucky at the end of the 20th century to have had a few years of a "middle class" where for a few minutes, women and nonwhite men were able to "climb the ladder" to established power positions. But IMO this kind of egality never lasts because it the pattern of the feudal system is about FOREVER "war' to gain territory and power. We war in our minds before we war on others.

    YES, people are awakening and this may well truly be when we may exit the matrix.
    Last edited by Delight; 2nd July 2020 at 01:27.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America


    When talking about systemic racism, there's this aspect of it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. I call it the crab effect.

    It comes from the story of how crabs in a cage will kill a crab that has figured out how to escape the cage to freedom, often times ripping it apart before it can climb out of the hole at the top of a crab cage. There's some neurological aspects behind this behavior, it happens all across the animal kingdom, and it happens in humans, too.

    You're obviously unfamiliar with the term, uncle tom, and how it is uVan Jones has been called an uncle tom. Right now, there are about a dozen strong intelligent people running for political office and they are all accused of being uncle toms and coons, in the comments below their social media accounts.

    During the recent protests, black police officers are often singled out and verbally abused because they are black, often using these racial slurs.
    sed on the street. I'm curious as to why you to chose to use it to begin with?
    --Edina

    I noted that it is preferable to use the term, "sellout" for people like Candace Owens, who regularly misrepresents her own people on national tv. Why did I use the term Uncle Tom, originally? I didn't understand at the time that it could be used to insult those who are compassionate individuals doing the best for their community under the rubric of a white dominated society. I already explained this.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    I noted that it is preferable to use the term, "sellout" for people like Candace Owens, who regularly misrepresents her own people on national tv. Why did I use the term Uncle Tom, originally? I didn't understand at the time that it could be used to insult those who are compassionate individuals doing the best for their community under the rubric of a white dominated society. I already explained this.
    It still doesn't explain why you chose the word to begin with. It's a derogatory term and it's intended to be a black-on-black racial slur. Although that wasn't it's original meaning.

    Uncle Tom once had a positive meaning. Then white people in the "black-face" vaudeville shows gradually changed the meaning, to the one that now marginalizes black people.

    I've listened to an interview where this topic came up with Candace, and heard her explain that because she's actually read the book, Uncle Tom, she doesn't consider it an insult. But, it appears that you intended it to be an insult.

    Are you aware that many, many people appreciate Candace and her work? Including many black people. Most people do no consider her a sell out, even if you do?


    If she weren't black would you have called her an uncle tom?

    And, what do you mean by, "her own people?'

    xxxMod Note:xxx
    edina, AutumnW has already specifically addressed her use of "Uncle Tom" three times now. At this point, it really seems to be nagging, especially with those rhetorical questions at the end.

    No one is required to agree with anyone, particularly of their personal opinion about another person (in this case, Candace Owens). Your post is perfectly fine with what I bolded above. The rest, though, is really unnecessary.
    Last edited by Sarah Rainsong; 2nd July 2020 at 02:42.

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  27. Link to Post #74
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    What was a guy like Martin Luther King basing his opinion on, when proclaiming we should judge a man by the content of his character, not by the color of his skin?

    Now that we seem to have all the definitions and philosophies somewhat hashed out, where did that come from? What was he speaking of?

    If there's anything to it, has it been resolved?

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    I noted that it is preferable to use the term, "sellout" for people like Candace Owens, who regularly misrepresents her own people on national tv. Why did I use the term Uncle Tom, originally? I didn't understand at the time that it could be used to insult those who are compassionate individuals doing the best for their community under the rubric of a white dominated society. I already explained this.
    It still doesn't explain why you chose the word to begin with. It's a derogatory term and it's intended to be a black-on-black racial slur. Although that wasn't it's original meaning.

    Uncle Tom once had a positive meaning. Then white people in the "black-face" vaudeville shows gradually changed the meaning, to the one that now marginalizes black people.

    I've listened to an interview where this topic came up with Candace, and heard her explain that because she's actually read the book, Uncle Tom, she doesn't consider it an insult. But, it appears that you intended it to be an insult.

    Are you aware that many, many people appreciate Candace and her work? Including many black people. Most people do no consider her a sell out, even if you do?


    If she weren't black would you have called her an uncle tom?

    And, what do you mean by, "her own people?'

    xxxMod Note:xxx
    edina, AutumnW has already specifically addressed her use of "Uncle Tom" three times now. At this point, it really seems to be nagging, especially with those rhetorical questions at the end.

    No one is required to agree with anyone, particularly of their personal opinion about another person (in this case, Candace Owens). Your post is perfectly fine with what I bolded above. The rest, though, is really unnecessary.
    Thank you for your input MOD

    I agree, no one is required to agree with one person's opinion of another.

    I don't consider my questions rhetorical.
    I am actually interested in the answers.
    Especially with the clarification question of what Autumn meant by "her own people."

    And, I'm also fine letting it drop, too.
    Last edited by edina; 2nd July 2020 at 03:04.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Delight (here)
    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    First of all, if you are angry, take a deep breath and analyze why. We are here for discussion. This is not a competition, and no one is going to "win" or "lose."

    Basically, I'm hearing some people say that systemic racism is real, to varying degrees. Others say there is no such thing as systemic racism, only systemic corruption.

    As far as what systemic racism is, "systemic racism" is an adjective plus a noun, and as such carries a specific meaning. Getting right down to that literal meaning, here's a list of quick definitions:
    • System - a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network
    • Systemic - relating to a system
    • Racism - [my paraphrase] having a negative view or taking negative actions against a person or group because of their race
    • Bigotry - intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
    • Supremacy - the belief of being superior to all others
    • Prejudice - preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience

    Some words have changed meaning over time (like "gay") but not these, so let's not try to redefine words. (Sorry, Orbo, I'm 100% on board with celebrating our differences, but "racism" is not a good thing.)

    So IMO, systemic racism is therefore racism that is built into a system. It's not about individual acts--that's just straight up racism. It's about a system that supports and perpetuates racism.

    Also, it is important to clarify that systems do not equal individuals. Take corporations, for instance. If you work in a corporation (a system), then you are aware that there are nuances and unspoken rules and even created rules where if one wants advancement, they have to follow those rules. Even if the corporation as a whole is considered bad (for whatever reason), any given person in that corporation is most likely a decent person just trying to get by!

    Historically, there has been systemic racism. Consider the Native Americans and the laws (hence, system) and actions (by the government, again system) that were directed at them, as a race, and ultimately led to genocide.

    Another example is Jim Crow laws, which were often enacted by state and local governments (again, system) that specifically targeted black people as a race. (Keep this in historical context, regardless of what people think or do now, "black" as a race was exactly the intent and view of people when these laws were placed.)

    Of course, these are only a couple of examples in American history. There are many other examples of systemic racism from history across the globe. So systemic racism has existed, and to know what it really is, we have only to look to history.

    Does it still exist? Has it changed? Has it morphed into something that is no longer racism?
    I appreciate this post as it does have some excellently objective ways to ground discussion.

    I absolutely see systemic stratification of power (hence access to resurces real like money and intangible like values of learning and skill development). The ability to build genertional wealth is only temporary and people have their ongong "great depressions" where they slide down in power.

    The hierarchy of power is IMO the same feudal system we always have had as the Patriarchy. In layers of power, we are ruled from the "TOP" (who IS that is the rabbit hole many have explored). We accept being ruled by "something" with greater authority. This is an important point. Belief in the feudal system being real and maybe necessary.

    The widest spectrum of everyone is all the bottom of the pyramid. Power shifts little on the bottom unless a major upheaval happens. Race sex and class in OLDE England was mightily disturbed by WWI. Used to be there that only those BORN into the gentle folk ruled the rest.

    In the USA we said NO NOBILITY but created it anyway (white men). Believing that some people are intrinsically more valuable by way of their sex (gender), their race (blood), their religion, their "whatever" is inculcated by programming. This is the system of the Patriarchy IMO underneath all the individual cases. The ones at the BOTTOM are most susceptible to self hate which leads to harm self and others. IMO FRANKLY we are all at the bottom or threatened by the fall back to the bottom which is exactly what is intended.

    How do we exit? First we have to examine our subconscious programming. This world is what we created by thought and we think FOR the Patriarchy in so so many ways. I at this point am ready to EXIT. It is a very surprising experience to accept that we ourselves expect to have certain experiences and then they HAPPEN. We believe it ourselves.We are like the fish who cannot see the water they swim in. Our very self "SYSTEM" is responsible for the belief structure that holds up the pyramid.

    We have been lucky at the end of the 20th century to have had a few years of a "middle class" where for a few minutes, women and nonwhite men were able to "climb the ladder" to established power positions. But IMO this kind of egality never lasts because it the pattern of the feudal system is about FOREVER "war' to gain territory and power. We war in our minds before we war on others.

    YES, people are awakening and this may well truly be when we may exit the matrix.
    This is just perfect. Thank you 🙏

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Larry Elders recently made a film called Uncle Tom - the term is defined as we are discussing here. He said as of a few days a go it had like 700 reviews and 9.9 stars out of 10. It can be download from Hugh Hewitt web page for like $20 I think. I have not watched it but if someone have, maybe share his/her own Avalon review too.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    As systemic is defined as relating to a system, which for this discussion is a system of racism.

    Does a cultural overlay work as a system?
    Does a society work as a system?

    I think idea of systemic racism is being over analysed with regards to which identifiable systems. Many a "system" isn't as easily made clear. And to some degree systemic racism is such a vague system. It has no clear boundaries, but is to me identifiable as an undercurrent of norms and mores in possibly statistical significant analyses of large portions of a population.

    It has been said before that racism is natural. Which to me means that to some degree everyone is biased towards some form of separation and favoritism between ones self/family/tribe/society and "others".

    The way we(self/family/tribe/society) talks, regards and interacts with others will to a large degree mimic the commonality in those biases.
    I think we could call that a systemic outlook on any subject. In this case racism.

    Such an ingrained system of biases is not dismantled by a few years of preferential treatment of the "other"
    Or even the positive individual experiences one has when dealing with the other.

    I believe that now we stand before the choice as a society or maybe even a humanity to slowly let go of those biased systemic outlook on how to organize and structure society.
    The riots, the protests and the solutions are going through a stage of redefinition and hopefully growth, so that what now looks like a dichotomy between black lives and the others will find a new equilibrium.

    Hopefully soon to be one where all humans are regarded as ones own family/tribe/society

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    Last edited by Catsquotl; 3rd July 2020 at 06:54.
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    I grew up in a mixed neighborhood.

    At my school we were about 1/3 black, 1/3 white and 1/3 hispanic.

    At some points, as a white I was actually in the minority. Sometimes, I was the only white person on the bus.
    As some may know I am fathering 6 young peeps.
    A few of them have an exceptional IQ.

    2 of my peeps are still in elementary school.
    One with an exceptional IQ and one less so.

    The smart one has been given the opportunity to study at a different school for "gifted" kids.
    The youngest didn't

    So when the were at ordinary elementary school the population is predominantly mixed. I'd go as far as to say white kids are a minority there.
    When my "gifted" kid changed schools every kid there is white.

    Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
    Or is there some kind of preferential privilege going on?

    Could that be an example of systemic racism?
    Last edited by Catsquotl; 3rd July 2020 at 07:36.
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    So when the were at ordinary elementary school the population is predominantly mixed. I'd go as far as to say white kids are a minority there.
    When my "gifted" kid changed schools every kid there is white.

    Does that mean there are no high IQ children of color?
    Or is there some kind of preferential privilege going on?
    That's an interesting observation and question Catsquotl.

    I reckon you could also turn that around, and wonder if because blacks are 13% of the US population, yet 34% the prison population, that they are naturally that much more predisposed to crime as a race?

    Or is there something else going on?

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