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Thread: Systemic Racism in America

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    I’d agree with the point Floating made earlier that systemic racism isn’t the right word for it. Black people aren’t specifically, purposefully, targeted any more than other skin colours. There’s too many successful black people who’ve risen to be in positions of influence, power and responsibility for other black people to make the argument that the system is against them.

    Thomas Sowell is the perfect example of someone who worked hard in life and took the opportunities that came his way. Having worked his way through the system, through the institutions, through society, he has the inside scoop on whether it’s racist or not. His main gripe seems to be that “the black community just doesn’t have a strong work ethic, they don’t produce, they’d rather live on handouts and benefits”. As oppose to the Asian community, who he points out, are over-represented in institutions of higher learning, but that’s because they have an insanely strict work ethic in their culture.


    The last few paragraphs from a longer article on the topic:

    ============
    Sowell clearly believes that culture, as it affects the development of human capital, is a better candidate for explaining inter-group differences than either discrimination or genetics. The “high correlation between the amount of work that different groups put into their education and the quality of their outcomes does not bode well for theories of genetic determinism,” he writes in Discrimination and Disparities. “When we find some race whose lazy students get educational results superior to the results of hard-working students in other races, this would be evidence supporting that hypothesis, but such evidence does not seem to be available.” Asians’ over-representation in New York’s specialized high schools would come as no surprise to Sowell, especially given the proliferation of test preparation centers in the city’s Asian neighborhoods. The Asian American Achievement Paradox (2015), by Jennifer Lee and Min Zhou, points out that the culture of academic achievement among Asian-Americans is so vigorous that a student who brings home a report card with an A-minus is said to have received “the Asian F.”

    One might suppose that cultural determinism would be accepted as a more respectful explanation of disparities than genetic determinism. To the contrary. If there is some hereditary basis for disparities disadvantageous to blacks, not only is it futile to devise remedies but also to assign blame…to anyone, white or black. Cultural determinism, however, ascribes agency to disadvantaged American groups, which necessarily recognizes responsibility and the possibility of blame as well. For sociologist Michael Eric Dyson, President Obama’s 2013 address at historically black Morehouse College warned its students “against using racism as an excuse for failure,” and condemned “black pathology, such as absentee fathers.” Such admonitions, Dyson lamented, were seen by white America as “heroic battles against black deficiency.” Another black public intellectual, Ta-Nehisi Coates, dismisses as “lazy” any cultural explanation for disparate outcomes that leave blacks worse off than whites.

    The great problem with the Morehouse speech and the Obama presidency in general, wrote Dyson, was the failure to “speak of race in a way that holds whites even partially responsible for black suffering.” As it is for Ezra Klein, the imperative becomes not to let whites off the hook. By contrast, ascribing every disparity adverse to blacks entirely in terms of discrimination holds whites wholly responsible for black suffering. Necessarily, then, it absolves blacks of any responsibility for such suffering, or any need to pursue changes other than demanding that whites renounce their advantages, as in the jihad against “white privilege” or Coates’s advocacy of huge monetary reparations for slavery and segregation.

    If all disparities are explained by discrimination, and all Americans fit into one of just two categories—victims of discrimination, or perpetrators and beneficiaries of it—this all-or-nothing frame for determining moral responsibility becomes inevitable. Unfortunately, so does a war between republicanism and pluralism. Ibram Kendi urges us to supplant the flawed principle that all men are created equal with the “perfectly egalitarian” declaration that “all human groups are equal.” This, he says, “is the creed of anti-racism. All human groups are biologically and behaviorally equal; they are all on the same level despite their physical and cultural differences.”

    This dictate about group equality, however, nullifies rather than enhances the principle of human equality. A nation dedicated to the proposition that all behaviors and cultures are to be regarded as equal forecloses the prospect of justified pride in order to banish the possibility of self-reproach. If their behaviors and cultures lead some groups to different levels than others, there must be endless, fevered efforts to keep everyone at the same level, as in Mayor de Blasio’s idea that proportional results are the sole criterion defining a fair process. This conception of equality sets it against, and demands that it prevail against, freedom. Constant state interventions will be needed to minimize the consequences, good and bad, of individuals’ choices, habits, and dispositions. For the sake of group equality, the disciplined, responsible, and ambitious will be penalized so that those who can’t or won’t manifest these qualities are rewarded. The result, concludes Thomas Sowell in his series of luminous books, written over the course of a long and very American life, will be an ever less free and democratic nation that will be hard to sustain and impossible to admire.
    ==============

    The system isn’t specifically racist towards black people. The system is biased towards people who produce and invest their time and energy into the system and the system implements that bias regardless of what skin colour a person has.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Mike, Would you agree that there is systemic racism within policing agencies, the justice and prison systems? If not, why not? Black people are treated much worse than white people. That seems to be something few people would argue with.
    Pittsburgh had an algorithm that would automatically send more squad cars to areas and neighbourhoods where crimes were being committed. The algorithm was suspended for being racist because it turned out the cars were being sent to ‘black’ neighbourhoods more than anywhere else. What role does black criminality play in perpetuating prejudices against their own community?
    Quote Where diversity (and a paucity of white people) was found, it turns out the city’s algorithmic policing program predicting “hot spots” for criminal activity quickly established racial patterns those in power wished to conceal. Because it’s these patterns explaining why Pittsburgh has such high rates of residential segregation: white people want to live in communities devoid of crime, thus they seek to live in residential areas with an abundance of whites. A surplus of whiteness means social capital flourishes, while Pittsburgh’s algorithm policing program dared showcase communities lacking in whiteness were also where crime was most rampant.

    Thus, it had to go immediately.

    If there’s hope, it lies not in the proles, but the successful implementation of algorithm policing programs predicting crime nationwide.

    Data never lies the way social scientists creating new words/phrases to excuse away black criminality do.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...l-for-evidence

    This is a link to David lammys report.
    In summary he found that the justice system was no more likely to jail you based on colour.
    The problem begins with disportionate stop and search(many reasons for this)on the black community, which leads to a mistrust of the police which leads to a mistrust of the judicial system.
    Which leads to a black criminal less likely to pleading guilty and receiving a lengthier sentence as a result.
    A jury is no more likely to find a black person guilty as a white person, even an all white jury.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    re "systemic". Well this is the problem, isn't it? No one actually knows what this means exactly, least of all the mindless mob that is endlessly droning on about it.
    Mike. Again on generalities. Who in your opinion, and how pervasive, is this "mindless mob"?

    Are they all the mindless mob?
    nearly everyone, yes. totally pervasive
    Okay then, wow, dude I couldn't disagree more. I'm going to have to sleep on it to gain greater clarity on how to really take that.

    So nearly 100% of the voices who say there exists systemic racism, are part of the "mindless mob". Huh...
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Look, I can't go on www. mindlessmob.com to give you an exact number of people who don't understand the concept of systemic racism. What I'm offering is an opinion; it's not science. Imagine for a moment you told me you met lots of idiots in your life. And then imagine I followed you around all day, tapping your shoulder and demanding an exact count of them, along with the ratio of huge idiots to semi-huge idiots, and semi-huge to moderate, and so on and so forth
    Mike, take a deep breath, and show me where I'm demanding exact numbers and statistics. Go ahead I'll wait...

    You're painting with a very broad brush here, saying "nearly everyone" who has the opinion that there exists systemic racism is part of this angry mob, and I flat out don't think that's anywhere near the case. Maybe it looks that way to you because you're really hyper focused on the problem, but I can assure you it's not nearly everyone.

    I've met lots of idiots in my life, but you'd not catch me going around saying nearly everyone I've ever met is an idiot. That's what you're doing.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    If you cant see those mindless mobs, it could mean you're not paying any attention at all, or it could mean you may even be part of one without even knowing it.
    Remember when I said this over on your thread?
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Mike, I duly acknowledge there's a problem here needs serious dealing with, I just don't accept that it's as pervasive as it's being made out to be.
    You're really hot under the collar over this thing, and I think it's starting to affect your judgment. You forget I've already agreed with you, just not to the extent where I'm ready to hang a nasty "angry mob" label on anyone who holds this opinion that you find so foul.

    If that makes me ignorant, or unknowingly part of the mob myself, then so be it.

    Have you considered that many thoughtful people may hold this opinion you so abhor, that aren't some brainwashed and mindless social justice warrior?

    No need to answer that. And I promise to leave you be now, I just happen to think this is important.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Munira Mirza, former Deputy Mayor of London for Education and Culture, discusses multiculturalism, identity politics, the myths of institutional racism and white privilege, racial disparities, offence culture, Brexit, liberalism, the European Union, polarisation, and a lot more with the guys at TRIGGERnometry.

    She is from the UK but many of the points are relevant to the USA and wider world as well.

    Oel ngati kame

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Oh look, the White Supremacist dont think there is systemic racism. <--NOT OKAY

    SHame on this board for allowing people like ________ while pushing away people like Mark/Rakhyt.

    We have lost a great and powerful voice in our community because of the OVERT and supported racism.

    I see some fighting the good fight( looking at you AutumnW) but the white nationalism is strong here.


    So very disappointed in Bill Ryan. For an immigrant living in a foreign land to let this kind of racism exist on his platform is just WOW.

    And for Bill to like and support Comments like the ones Mike generates, wow. I guess never meet your heroes.

    Remember when this was a place about UFO and the strange and trying to be discerning intelligent people on those topics?

    xxxMOD NOTExxx
    First, let's avoid name calling. This topic is heated enough without throwing around insults. There is a big difference between someone who does not agree on whether or not systemic racism exists, or even what it is, and whether that person might be a "white supremacist."

    Second, speaking only for myself, since I started the thread, I do appreciate everyone who is taking the time to contribute by commenting--regardless of whether or not I agree with what they're saying.

    Third, you are very justified in expressing your frustration and disappointment. Let's just try to do it without making this into a mud-slinging contest.

    Sarah Rainsong
    Last edited by Sarah Rainsong; 30th June 2020 at 14:37.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Here in Canada, it is like being at the UN. You walk onto a job site and every language on earth is being spoken. And if you happen to need to talk to one of them you must wait while they finish speaking in their own language. They say it is rude to interrupt them. It is like living in ancient times working on the tower of Babel. Now we are told the number of judges does not sufficiently represent the proportion of minorities in the country. We don't seem to be worried about minority representation in government anymore, thanks to the Liberals under Trudeau.

    We are racist because we are proud of our own heritage, and that heritage is being systemically vilified. The system is biased against whites of all races as we hurtle towards global government. There are far more blacks, browns, yellows and reds than there are whites - that's the reason for all this hate speech against whites. It is sanctioned by the champions of the world wide deep state who wish to implement their one world government.

    Racism is normal behavior. It is what formed nations. Racism is abhorred in a world that wishes to be homogeneous.

    The ghettos of American cities is how this NWO expects the majority of citizens to live once they have control. We will all live in squalor while a handful of very important men, mostly white, will hand down decrees to the rabble.

    So if you are truly concerned about favoritism, the word that actually applies here and not racism, then you should be against any plans implemented by the NWO and its lackeys.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Kryztian (here)


    Keeping all the things I mind that Candace Owens just said, we still need to demand justice for George Floyd, but this should inform how we go about it.
    This is an interesting, respectful and thoughtful conversation between Candace and Marc, that stems from the comments that Candace shared in this video.

    (BTW, thank you Krystian for sharing the video, I had been wondering at the time what Candace thought about what was going on, and appreciated hearing her perspective. And as a side note, I had already begun reading some of Thomas Sowell, and couldn't remember the other writers that she often mentions. I was happy to hear their names in the video you shared; Shelby Steele, and Walter Williams.)

    They each speak to the data and the issues coming from their unique perspectives.

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Oh look, the White Supremacist dont think there is systemic racism.

    SHame on this board for allowing people like ________ while pushing away people like Mark/Rakhyt.

    We have lost a great and powerful voice in our community because of the OVERT and supported racism.

    I see some fighting the good fight( looking at you AutumnW) but the white nationalism is strong here.


    So very disappointed in Bill Ryan. For an immigrant living in a foreign land to let this kind of racism exist on his platform is just WOW.

    And for Bill to like and support Comments like the ones Mike generates, wow. I guess never meet your heroes.

    Remember when this was a place about UFO and the strange and trying to be discerning intelligent people on those topics?
    I don't get it. If a white person discusses the claim of systemic racism and offers opinions, experience and data re the confusion, they are vilified and labeled white supremacist.

    So is a black woman, (e.g. Candace Owens but there are many more), who offers similar data points to the discussion, also a white supremacist? Have I missed seeing another label somewhere?

    ADDED: Posted before I saw Sarah's comments. I am still very curious about this dilemma though.
    Last edited by Gemma13; 30th June 2020 at 14:43.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Let's not get carried off into white supremacy. The point of the thread is What is systemic racism in America. Let people share their opinions, even if they think there is no such thing. This is the place to say that. Of course, everyone and anyone is free to disagree! Just remember, the point of the thread is primarily information gathering.

    Last edited by Sarah Rainsong; 1st July 2020 at 01:26.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Sorry for getting snippy Gracy May I was a little out of order there. My bad

    And to Sarah, sorry for derailing.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    I thought, by definition, that that is exactly what we are talking about - White Supremacy. Isn't that where 'systemic racism' derives its meaning? Wasn't it the 'white man' that came with his rules and laws and armies? Didn't they set up the 'system' to favor themselves? Isn't that the system we are talking about? That's what I am talking about. That is where racism comes from, is it not?

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Gemma13 (here)
    There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

    A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

    "X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

    When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

    Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

    I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

    As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

    But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

    The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

    I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

    Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

    The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

    And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.
    This brings to mind a wonderful multi part documentary called Daughters of Destiny. A successful American businessman born in India, attempts to help lift girls from the ''untouchable'' caste, starting at age four to college, with the hope it will make systemic changes in their communities as well as themselves. A very well intended effort with poignant outcomes. Riveting and eye opening doc.

    I won't spoil it if anyone hasn't seen it but I have seen a less dramatic version of it in my own family where each parent came from a distinctly different social class, (even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do).

    There's a sense of disloyalty if one's steps ''above one's station'', ''who do you think you are!?" Know your place kind of thing. My mother came from working class Swedish immigrant family, her mother worked as a maid, my father from a much more educated and established middle class family but had also experienced poverty during the depression. But when times improved, the one side took advantage of opportunities that were there, had a broader field of options to choose from in upward mobility, most importantly in the ability to even imagine other possibilities.

    On my mother's side, there was actual disdain and suspicion for those who wanted to ''better'' themselves, unless it was within narrow parameters, or live a creative life that wasn't in their cultural script, or even getting too successful, which would make one admired in a way but treated as ''other'' also. I straddled these cultures and always noticed the differences. And in a family of several siblings and many many cousins, each drifted to their own ghettos of sorts, and don't mix really. Even though they are the same ethnic culture and related by blood.

    Culture is everything! And particularly the notion of social ''class'' not discussed, somehow taboo? It's not the amount of melanin in one's skin or the architecture of one's face that is crucial, but the culture the individual springs from, tribal, familial, and what its membership ''rules'' are. I think there does seem to be on the surface echoes of systemic racism, in housing, opportunities, education, but if one really looks deeply at families, what happens in families, it's cultural. Some of the same social problems exist across races in the US, persistent poverty, functional illiteracy, substandard housing, single parent families, and a world of low expectations. Poor white, poor American black and native people. Much less found in many Asian, African and middle eastern origin people. But the plight of all struggling and chronically poor is not newsworthy apparently.

    Current events feel like a huge deflection from the true source of inequities. A ''look here'' not there kind of thing so we scrap amongst ourselves and don't disturb the true status quo.

    These limits are so strong, magnetic. Those who jump class can lose their sense of community, feel unseen, adrift, no social mirroring, and this so demonstrates how connection and a sense of belonging to us humans is life itself, and that it can feel better to clip ones wings and feel ''home'', rather than feel an ''other'' and lost in a wider world.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Systemic racism is a real thing in the U.S. Wise not to put too fine a point on life or death issues, like what Blacks have to put up with from police -- and that is what the protests are about.

    They are not about frustrated upward mobility or a lack of generational transfer of assets. It's mighty nasty when you are shut out of home ownership, by policy. Catherine Austin Fitts goes to great lengths describing that process. It's called, 'redlining.'

    Still, that's not what the protests are about. They are about police brutality and murder of African American ethnicities who are dark skinned.

    I spoke to a Chicago cop about six years ago who told me he felt so sorry for new cops coming into the force. The reason? Why, before surveillance by cell phone, and their own dashboard mounted camera, "it was so easy to beat the **** out of people when the stress of the job started getting to you. It just keeps getting tougher for us to beat people up!" Note he didn't imply that beating someone up had anything to do with what they had actually done but was a way of releasing stress.

    And you bloody well know he wasn't talking about beating up white people. The outrage Americans of all ethnicities are feeling now has a lot to do with increased transparency of police through cell phone monitoring. And it is STILL really bad.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by graciousb (here)
    (even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do)
    Very sound point graciousb: there has been and IS a caste system that has been perpetuated generationally. The glue of "this is YOUR place" is spread within families, communities and across society. This fact is obvious but remains unspeakable. It suits the high caste to remain there and they feel absolutely entitled "by divine order" to protect the position. The rest of us low caste people are fools if we think other wise. That is the feudal order of the matrix. However one has to be able to step 'outside' the parameters to see it. IMO people who have "stepped out" KNOW that the system is corrupt and corroded. IMO it is falling to pieces because it is absolutely decayed and cannot stand.
    This conversation is an attempt to look at what could create a better world for us all.


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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Sorry, FBI statistics don't back you up. And yes bad cops have beat s..t out of all races.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Gemma13 (here)
    There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

    A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

    "X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

    When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

    Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

    I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

    As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

    But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

    The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

    I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

    Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

    The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

    And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.  

    So my main point to contribute here is that there are institutional problems that are not coming from so called "white privilege".  When the indigenous culture is fractured and finding it difficult to help each other, how in gods name are non indigenous people supposed to help.

    This is why I am deeply disappointed in the division being created from BLM because it is seriously jeopardizing and hampering indigenous people, let alone everyone else, trying to help families/groups within their communities.
    Quote Posted by Delight (here)
    Quote Posted by graciousb (here)
    (even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do)
    Very sound point graciousb: there has been and IS a caste system that has been perpetuated generationally. The glue of "this is YOUR place" is spread within families, communities and across society. This fact is obvious but remains unspeakable. It suits the high caste to remain there and they feel absolutely entitled "by divine order" to protect the position. The rest of us low caste people are fools if we think other wise. That is the feudal order of the matrix. However one has to be able to step 'outside' the parameters to see it. IMO people who have "stepped out" KNOW that the system is corrupt and corroded. IMO it is falling to pieces because it is absolutely decayed and cannot stand.
    This conversation is an attempt to look at what could create a better world for us all.

    Yes. The TRUE elites, those behind the curtain, no idea of their numbers, but for them even ''high caste'' professionals, academics, physicians, entertainers...are employees and perform at their pleasure. "Eyes wide shut'' film comes to mind, the inner circle is unknown to us and even an affluent dr and his wife aren't in.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    Munira Mirza, former Deputy Mayor of London for Education and Culture, discusses multiculturalism, identity politics, the myths of institutional racism and white privilege, racial disparities, offence culture, Brexit, liberalism, the European Union, polarisation, and a lot more with the guys at TRIGGERnometry.

    She is from the UK but many of the points are relevant to the USA and wider world as well.

    This is gold - I'm only 12 minutes in and already the conversation gushes good sense and flows effortlessly, and at times humorously.

    A really good find: indeed, what is discussed would apply to anywhere where there exists cultural diversity and nuance. It really is excellent and thanks for sharing it here.

    “If a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” - Thoreau

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by graciousb (here)
    Quote Posted by Gemma13 (here)
    There is a cultural problem that I believe makes up a large chunk of institutional racism that I don't think is getting enough air time.  The refusal of some indigenous groups/families to want to be inclusive within industry.

    A true story from the small city I was born in. A teacher encouraged and supported his top student to go to university.  According to him "X" was so intelligent she could pick and choose any career she wanted and would excel.

    "X" wanted very much to pursue her dreams but was also hesitant.  She eventually enrolled only to withdraw and take a job working in the local supermarket.

    When her stunned teacher asked "why" she said she decided to choose her family over her personal desires because she couldn't handle the pressure from her family and the risk of being cut off from them if she went to uni because they condemned her for wanting to "be like white people".

    Another story closer to home.  My white girlfriend married an indigenous man.  Lots of his family supported them.  Some didn't.  Many times when they were out in public he would get targeted and yelled at for betraying his colour to be with a "white c...".

    I was raised in a small town in Western Australia and hated walking home from school trying to avoid being spat on and bullied by groups of indigenous children because I was apparently white scum.

    As an adult I was assaulted from behind on a bus because I was white.  I hadn't uttered a word.  Just happened to be the unlucky person standing in front of the woman repeatedly jeering and yelling "you're all f#cking white c...s". The tension and fear from everyone was palpable.

    But this particular day I had had enough so I turned, landed a punch back and said okay, enough, you wanna keep having a go then as soon as we're off this bus you can have me, I'll take you on.

    The woman was stunned and went silent.  Then she came up to me on the crowded platform and started hugging me saying, "it's okay, you're like me, you're alright, we're friends."  And that was that.

    I asked a friend who worked in social services what the hell that was all about and she said the woman probably changed her attitude because I spoke her language.  How sad is that.  I had to become aggessive to be respected.

    Where I live now we feed over 70 students daily at our school's breakfast club and many are indigenous.  There are a lot of indigenous families that still refuse to value education or "the white man system" so they refuse to support it.  Problem is they don't provide or request any alternatives so poverty, alcohol, drugs and domestic violence are prevalent.

    The lack of education and communication skills creates and perpetuates inferiority within the general community that seriously disables indigenous groups.  For example health issues get undiagnosed and therefore untreated because people are too anxious and afraid to visit medical institutions because they can't understand the language.  

    And then of course there are the many indigenous families/groups that do value education, are highly succesful in institutions, and work hard on trying to fix this fracture in their communities.
    This brings to mind a wonderful multi part documentary called Daughters of Destiny. A successful American businessman born in India, attempts to help lift girls from the ''untouchable'' caste, starting at age four to college, with the hope it will make systemic changes in their communities as well as themselves. A very well intended effort with poignant outcomes. Riveting and eye opening doc.

    I won't spoil it if anyone hasn't seen it but I have seen a less dramatic version of it in my own family where each parent came from a distinctly different social class, (even though supposedly we don't have castes here, we actually do).

    There's a sense of disloyalty if one's steps ''above one's station'', ''who do you think you are!?" Know your place kind of thing. My mother came from working class Swedish immigrant family, her mother worked as a maid, my father from a much more educated and established middle class family but had also experienced poverty during the depression. But when times improved, the one side took advantage of opportunities that were there, had a broader field of options to choose from in upward mobility, most importantly in the ability to even imagine other possibilities.

    On my mother's side, there was actual disdain and suspicion for those who wanted to ''better'' themselves, unless it was within narrow parameters, or live a creative life that wasn't in their cultural script, or even getting too successful, which would make one admired in a way but treated as ''other'' also. I straddled these cultures and always noticed the differences. And in a family of several siblings and many many cousins, each drifted to their own ghettos of sorts, and don't mix really. Even though they are the same ethnic culture and related by blood.

    Culture is everything! And particularly the notion of social ''class'' not discussed, somehow taboo? It's not the amount of melanin in one's skin or the architecture of one's face that is crucial, but the culture the individual springs from, tribal, familial, and what its membership ''rules'' are. I think there does seem to be on the surface echoes of systemic racism, in housing, opportunities, education, but if one really looks deeply at families, what happens in families, it's cultural. Some of the same social problems exist across races in the US, persistent poverty, functional illiteracy, substandard housing, single parent families, and a world of low expectations. Poor white, poor American black and native people. Much less found in many Asian, African and middle eastern origin people. But the plight of all struggling and chronically poor is not newsworthy apparently.

    Current events feel like a huge deflection from the true source of inequities. A ''look here'' not there kind of thing so we scrap amongst ourselves and don't disturb the true status quo.

    These limits are so strong, magnetic. Those who jump class can lose their sense of community, feel unseen, adrift, no social mirroring, and this so demonstrates how connection and a sense of belonging to us humans is life itself, and that it can feel better to clip ones wings and feel ''home'', rather than feel an ''other'' and lost in a wider world.
    What you’re both describing here is a function of systemic racism. The idea that the ‘white’ way of life or determinants of success are the only way of life or determinants of success. This is an issue for indigenous cultures across the world. White people invade a country, and as Ernie said, establish the ‘system’, the laws, rules, mores both legal and cultural, to support themselves and eradicate the system of the culture they’ve invaded.

    Not participating in white culture is a form of rebellion and resistance that leads to poverty and its consequences since no alternative is allowed. You must be able to participate economically in the white world otherwise you literally can’t survive and have no power to effect any change.

    The indigenous communities of Australia had their entire culture eradicated leading to their children being forcibly removed, loss of identity and loss of way of life. They are not allowed to live any other way than what we have determined for them. I would have thought people in the alternative community would be able to at least understand their perspective. I know I yearn for an alternative way of living, getting off grid, living off the country, raising and educating my children according to my values. Unfortunately that requires resources. Luckily for me, I was raised in the system, in a relatively well off family. I know how it works, I know how to manipulate it for my own ends. Indigenous cultures don’t have that luxury. And given their loss of culture, loss of identity and loss of way of life, loss of children and loved ones, they are not in a place to even now determine how it is they want to live and they’re certainly not supported in finding out.

    And it would be remiss of me to fail to point out, that us white people sitting here today discussing whether or not systemic racism exists, is racist in and of itself.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Oh look, the White Supremacist dont think there is systemic racism. <--NOT OKAY

    SHame on this board for allowing people like ________ while pushing away people like Mark/Rakhyt.

    We have lost a great and powerful voice in our community because of the OVERT and supported racism.

    I see some fighting the good fight( looking at you AutumnW) but the white nationalism is strong here.


    So very disappointed in Bill Ryan. For an immigrant living in a foreign land to let this kind of racism exist on his platform is just WOW.

    And for Bill to like and support Comments like the ones Mike generates, wow. I guess never meet your heroes.

    Remember when this was a place about UFO and the strange and trying to be discerning intelligent people on those topics?

    xxxMOD NOTExxx
    First, let's avoid name calling. This topic is heated enough without throwing around insults. There is a big difference between someone who does not agree on whether or not systemic racism exists, or even what it is, and whether that person might be a "white supremacist."

    Second, speaking only for myself, since I started the thread, I do appreciate everyone who is taking the time to contribute by commenting--regardless of whether or not I agree with what they're saying.

    Third, you are very justified in expressing your frustration and disappointment. Let's just try to do it without making this into a mud-slinging contest.

    Sarah Rainsong


    No one pushed Mark away. He left on his own. He's a big boy and he has to take responsibility for that. You like to play the blame game though, so your analysis isn't surprising.

    The media, the universities, the professors, and now corporate America are all falling in line with Mark's ideas of white supremacy, white privilege, white frailty, systemic racism, and so on. It's like a social justice wet dream. He won. The machine is in motion; no one can stop it at this point..certainly not a handful of dissidents on a small chat forum. He should be jumping up and down in the streets with joy. But instead he's quitting Avalon because a few people on a small, niche forum won't play along??? And you think that's some tragic injustice? Don't forget, Mark also had his own thread basically (Bill's thread, technically..but Mark was the main contributor) that he spammed with social justice themes mostly uninterrupted for months on end. So he can't say he was treated unfairly.

    Back on topic: It might be useful if we all had a working definition of systemic racism. Might be cool if everyone posting explained what it means to them before we move any further. If we could arrive at something that most of us agreed with, or at least some framework by which we could all operate in, it might add a little structure to help move the conversation forward constructively. Just my 2 cents.

    Because, in my opinion, there are some elements of what I believe "systemic racism" is that are valid and deserve to be spoken about and dissected. I also think there's quite a bit of fat that needs to be trimmed off. But I think to do a slow and methodical dissection and inspection of all it's elements, we first need to identify clearly what those elements are.
    Last edited by Mike; 30th June 2020 at 22:10.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Here in Canada, it is like being at the UN. You walk onto a job site and every language on earth is being spoken. And if you happen to need to talk to one of them you must wait while they finish speaking in their own language. They say it is rude to interrupt them. It is like living in ancient times working on the tower of Babel.
    Isn’t it just polite to wait for any person to finish speaking? Why turn this into a race issue?
    Last edited by Justjane; 30th June 2020 at 22:04.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    There is something called the fourteen words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words

    They are "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" with an alt version going like "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."

    This is also a White Genocide manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory"

    So next time you say there is White Genocide happening, congratulations you are using White Nationalist language. If it look like a duck and quacks like one . . . .



    But that is not even the good part. The Department of Homeland Security under Donald Trump and Stephen Miller issued this

    https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/02/15/...ica-safe-again


    The title of the memo is "We Must Secure The Border And Build The Wall To Make America Safe Again"

    Sound familiar.

    What about the Cops with the three percent flags on them? How many cops do you see that are allowed to have Black Panthers patches on their uniform?

    If you think there is a White Genocide, you are a White Supremacist or at least think like one.
    If you think there is a White Culture, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one( think of it this way: is there a Yellow culture? Didnt think so)
    If you think White is anything but a colloquial term to refer to a humans skin tone quickly, you are a white supremacist or at least think like one.

    How long do you have to think like one before you become one?

    You can be all these things without having a swastika on your body, without you even thinking you are. THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT SYSTEMIC.

    I too used to have a VERY negative response to the suggestion that White Culture should not exist. I felt that they were attacking my Norwegian Heritage of which I am proud. But they were not. The fact that I felt that they were talking about me just shows how deep White Supremacy is in America. Why do you think Mark was here trying to engage this community? He saw potential for change in the same way that I changed once I realized that since I am not a White Nationalist they actually werent talking about me and my culture and heritage.

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    Default Re: Systemic Racism in America

    The "next" time I say there is white genocide occurring will be the first time. I've never said that. Not once. Ever.

    You want me so badly to be the white demon of your imagination that you're now just inventing things

    Someday you'll be very embarrassed by all this. Till then, back to topic.

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