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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote I think, your sarcasm is also, entirely human there.
    There was none. I was thinking about what you said, and thought how I do that. I have plenty of confirmation from the Dakinis, and yet I go to humans, to ask, "Have you ever heard of this?"

    Quote Not sure what /or who are you mocking here based on the presumption of inherent ignorance ?
    No one. The presumption of inherent ignorance is universal, we all are told, time and again that we have Buddha nature, but none of us believes we will ever get there, even after being told there's no where we need to get.

    Quote None of this defines me ( or anyone for that purpose). Old Masters had different path than most of us can embrace these days.
    Why is that? I'm not saying this facetiously or sarcastically. Why does everyone in this age believe we can never be or understand what was understood a thousand years ago? Did we fall off some genetic cliff? The passage of the age, in Vimalaprabha is a documentable thing in archaeological and written history, it is what I referred to as the destruction of the Buddhist World 1003 to 1225 or so, and then a rerun in the 1400's. What is it we think we cannot do?

    Quote I try to stay with my wisdom when posting on public forum, which this is. There are countless agencies out there trying to collect private information on individuals and I’m not in favor of stripping myself or others naked in public or documenting my experiences on FB.
    I do not have that option, although I am not nor have I ever been on FB.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote And so the point is that Deep Sleep is similar to the Third Void, and the most mystical condition happens beyond that threshhold, in either the Raja Yoga or Buddhist portrayal.

    The Voids occur naturally along with the sleep process; accessing them in meditation is perhaps like putting the body to sleep without affecting the consciousness.

    In that case, waking up should be at least a bit like Emerging in Reverse Order. It is like descending through planes.

    And so I talk about sinning against Vajradhara as soon as I wake up, and sinning against the others before long, more or less because I am usually awakened by physical things and thrust into material concerns.

    My preference would be to feel a gossamer-like awareness that is not in the body, slowly enters it, pushes light through, and gradually manifests in a mandala-like manner.
    This I can more closely understand. I originally did shaking from my standing, or from just sitting in a chair. That was when I was doing "therapeutic" shaking, meaning that I did it to fix or repair injuries and aches and pains. I learned that it was more effective if I entered the shaking state from sleep (waking into it) and started doing it at night. It was shortly after that that the Dakinis arrived.

    What makes it easier to do that way is that there is some kind of link between my body and mind that seems different than when I am sitting awake.
    Quote Thus, for instance in enumerating the seven lokas of the "Kama-Loka" the Avatamsaka Sutra, gives as the seventh, the "Territory of Doubt." I will ask you to remember the name as we will have to speak of it hereafter. Every such "world" within the Sphere of Effects has a Tathagata, or "Dhyan Chohan" -- to protect and watch over, not to interfere with it."
    This is the same Kama-Loka as before?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    This is the same Kama-Loka as before?
    Yes.

    I honestly believe too much talk about higher planes and tenth or twelfth dimensions is misleading, because, for just about anyone who is not an Arhat, Kama Loka is probably the most metaphysically-poignant subject.

    In many classifications it is described as having six planes, however, in Buddhism, it has a seventh, which is the Akanistha or Pure Lands.

    Becoming fused to the seventh plane is equivalent in terms of practice to developing the Sambhoga Kaya.

    This consists of the Sister class of deities, which are "subterranean", having a dual meaning. In one sense, it is none other than demons in the descending bowels of the hot hells interior to the earth. At the same time, "subterranean" also means "under the surface of the body", so i. e. the Chakras, Channels, and Sacred Sites and their yoginis.

    When the Father applies Method properly, the Sisters produce Bliss.

    Also the Yaksha kindgom applies here. It is either effectively a demon, or one's life force and wisdom, simply depending on who is in control.

    Hence all the "conversion" mythology. It is fine if something was a demon. When we have the story of Vajrapani and Ghasmari conquering Maheshvara and so forth, it is irrelevant to us that they did it, they don't need any help. What is relevant is that in the mind and aura we imitate whatever it is that they did.

    The gates of Kama Loka are the same way. The Four Kings are not Wisdom Beings, they are Oath-bound Wrathful Ghosts, and they are still dangerous.

    The second plane is Indra Heaven or Heaven of the Thirty-three, also the residence of Viswakarman. This is the last plane that has anything to do with the physical world.

    And so if you pass that point, living or dead, and you have Karmic Wind, then it will sweep you into the objective reflection or the underworld called Talas. It would be similar to a dream where you are not in control and are being pushed around. You will magnetize either towards the bottom, which is like a slow roast, or, if you are incredibly sinful, you will, in a sense, rise to the Akanistha and get kicked into its evil twin, which is so hot that it instantly vaporizes you, like the planet's molten core. So to speak, the "evil higher" is actually lower, and there is only so far it can go. If you deserve punishment, it works a little differently, the hot hells are for the typical person who was not that powerful in evil causes or evil institutions.

    It is similar to what the Book of the Dead says, the main difference being that is a symbolic meditation, and so for example death is not literally a forty-nine day journey for everybody. The subjective time passed could seem anywhere from an instant to eternity. The actual time elapsed is often over a thousand years before reincarnating.

    Without a body, what could we possibly be Grasping at...some kind of kama rupa...which is not even stable, so it cannot be Absolute, so we lose every time.

    The Element or Realm consisting of kama rupas may simply be called Kama Dhatu, which is frequently referred to as Suffering.

    Kama Dhatu Ishvari is Lakshmi, mainly in her dark aspect, which means it would relate to Deep Sleep and Nidra or Urmila.

    Varnani must thereby be an acolyte of hers.

    Sita is Urmila's sister, and nothing may say they are the two branch nerves or Vairocani and Varnani, but there is at least a little similarity. Nepalese Buddhism has no trouble accepting Sita as a Vasudhara.

    And so when I look at the disciples in Avatamsaka Sutra, then there must be a difference between them and the Hearers who are able to watch Buddha's magical manifestation, and there could be all sorts of details, but the main factor appears to be Karuna. And this is Avalokiteshvara.

    He proved you could get people out of hell, but not stop them from going there.

    I personally feel a challenge or mission similar to that. If you can get even one person to change their mind about going to hell, then, you did a Karuna in this life.

    That sounds semi-easy but of course, the truth is not in any of the words, it is in their mind and aura, which they are probably ignorant and helpless in regard to. That is the Anatta doctrine. In the Pali it says "beings are not Nath", are helpless especially about matters of rebirth, whereas Buddha is Nath or is helpful, not because he is going to fix anything for you, but to give you the right encouragement and guidance so you do it yourself.

    As for the metaphysical difference between a spiritual path and a physiologically-similar path which is not necessarily spiritual, here, HPB is using the term Tantrika not...in its tantric sense, but a bit more in the general public low opinion of it, but she is really pointing out why there is a debased tantra, or, why a system of five elements that occultly begins in the Muladhara is not at all the same thing as the system that adds spiritual principles:

    The science of the five breaths––the moist, the fiery, the airy, etc., etc.––has a twofold significance and two applications. By the Tântrikas it is accepted literally, as relating to the regulation of the vital, lung breath, but by the ancient Râja-Yogis as referring to the mental or “will” breath, which alone leads to the highest clairvoyant powers, to the function of the Third Eye and the acquisition of the true Râja-Yoga occult powers. The difference between the two is enormous. The former, as shown, use the five lower Tattvas; the latter begin by using the three higher alone––for mental and will development––and the rest only when they have completely mastered the three; hence, they use only one (Âkâsa Tattva) out of the Tântric five. As well said in the above stated work, “Tattvas are the modifications of Svara.” Now, the Svara is the root of all sound, the substratum of the Pythagorean music of the spheres, Svara being that which is beyond spirit, in the modern acceptation of the word––the spirit of the spirit, or as very properly translated, the “current of the life wave,” the emanation of the One Life. The Great Breath spoken of in Volume I of The Secret Doctrine is ÂTMAN, the etymology of which is “eternal motion.” Now, while the ascetic-chela of our school follows carefully, for his mental development, the process of the evolution of the Universe, that is, proceeds from universals to particulars, the Hatha-Yogi reverses the conditions and begins by sitting for the suppression of his (vital) breath. And if, as Hindu philosophy teaches, at the beginning of cosmic evolution, “Svara threw itself into the form of Âkâsa,” and thence successively into the forms of Vâyu (air), Agni (fire), Âpas (water), and Prithivî (solid matter),* then it stands to reason that we have to begin by the higher supersensuous Tattvas. The Râja-Yogi does not descend on the planes of substance beyond Sűkshma (subtle matter); while the Hatha-Yogi develops and uses his powers only on the material plane. A good proof of this is found in the fact that the Tântrika locates the three “Nâdis,” (Sushumna, Idâ, and Pingala) in the medulla oblongata, the central line of which he calls Sushumna, and the right and left divisions, Pingala and Idâ––and also the heart, to the divisions of which he applies the same names. The Trans-Himâlayan school, of the ancient Indian Râja-Yogis, with which the modern Yogis of India have little to do, locates Sushumna, the chief seat of these three Nâdis, in the central tube of the spinal cord, and Idâ and Pingala on its left and right sides. Sushumna is the Brahmadanda. It is that tube (of the two along the spinal cord) of the use of which physiology knows no more than it does of the spleen and the pineal gland. Idâ and Pingala are simply the sharp and flat of that Fa (of human nature), the keynote and the middle key in the scale of the septenary harmony of the principles––which, when struck in a proper way, awakens the sentries on both sides, the spiritual Manas and the physical Kâma, and subdues the lower through the higher. But this effect has to be produced by exercise of will-power, not through the scientific or trained suppression of the breath. Take a transverse section of the spinal cord, and you will find that the shaded parts show sections across the tube, the one side of which tube transmits the volitional orders, and the other a life current of Jîva––not of Prâna, sent down to animate the lower extremities of man––during what is called Samâdhi and like states.

    He who has studied both systems, the Hatha and Râja-Yoga, finds an enormous difference between the two: one is purely psycho-physiological, the other purely psycho-spiritual. The Tântrists do not seem to go higher than the six visible and known plexuses, with each of which they connect the Tattvas; and the great stress they lay on the chief of these, the Műladhâra Chakra (the sacral plexus), shows the material and selfish bent of their efforts towards the acquisition of powers. Their five Breaths and five Tattvas are chiefly concerned with the prostatic, epigastric, cardiac, and laryngeal plexuses. Almost ignoring the Agneya, they are positively ignorant of the synthesizing pharyngeal plexus. But with the followers of the old school it is different. We begin with the mastery of that organ which is situated at the base of the brain, in the pharynx, and called by Western anatomists the Pituitary Body. In the series of the objective cranial organs, corresponding to the subjective Tattvic principles, it stands to the “Third Eye” (Pineal Gland) as Manas stands to Buddhi; the arousing and awakening of the Third Eye must be performed by that vascular organ, that insignificant little body, of which, once again, physiology knows nothing at all. The one is the Energizer of WILL, the other that of Clairvoyant Perception.

    She then uses the symbol of a Pentagram inscribed in a Hexagram, or the *use* of five-fold form *by* the spiritually-attuned Manas. She is not that great of a Buddhist explainer, but actually is pretty good in showing mostly equivalent things in Puranic terms. With the Three Natures she is good.

    Varuni is the original driver of the tantric process, she is an infusion of Akash. It, however, does not "start" in the Ajna, unless you ignore the beginning of it until, for instance, in Vajra Rosary, it reaches that point. You could perhaps argue that someone in Generation Stage has not "started". The way HPB uses the term "Chela" certainly seems to apply to someone who not only is in Completion Stage but is competent in at least some of the Six Dharmas.

    The main difference I think between Kama and Bliss is the factor of Grasping. If you relax the Grasping and start acting out of Karuna, you will have fewer problems in Kama Loka or "that which is Grasped".


    In the case of things that are physically therapeutic, it is all news and information to me. Like H. H. Dalai Lama says, he has never been depressed, and that makes him sad since he does not think he really understands what happens to someone who is depressed. I understand psychological problems quite well, and, I have no real recognition of physical discomfort, since my body will naturally push itself into a very good feeling. It is like I am ignorant about why this might not happen for everyone automatically.

    And so if you "opened" something based around the hypnagogic or cusp-of-falling-asleep, that makes sense...once you got the hang of it, then it perhaps "mobilized" to work at other times or for reasons other than discomfort?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Quote I hesitate to say "final state", I think what we can get is more like a "necessary condition" as in something that is "the one root of all these tantras". It "is" a final state if we perhaps call it Samadhi, but those samadhis are infinitely increasing. Or if we think in bodily terms, it "is" the Avadhut, except this keeps getting more and more subtle.
    There are multiple ways to interpret the "root of all these tantras".

    Here I misspoke slightly. It should have been "root of all these sadhanas". I was getting at what Mipham said:

    "The prayer in seven lines is root of all these sadhanas.

    Within the Ground, these lines denote
    The seven kinds of consciousness;

    Upon the Path, they represent
    The seven branches of enlightenment;

    And when the Fruit is won, they are perfected
    As the seven sacred riches of the ultimate."


    He had in mind a common daily Nyingma verse, but, it is also the case that Guru Yoga includes a Seven Limb Prayer, which could also be seven visible offerings, less the "invisible sound or music" offering. It is usually based in confession and asking the Buddhas to appear and remain in the realm of sentient beings.

    Mipham is part of Rime' which means it is non-sectarian, so the Pith of what it is saying applies to all sadhanas.

    "Ground" is body-and-mind-as-they-are, and so by saying seven consciousnesses, it is like the Asta Vijnana except saying the eighth is either not in man, or it represents a future state, and so this has for the apex, the Klista Manas or Addicted Mind, which as we see, is specifically focused, purified, and revealed by Vajradhara and Vajrayogini. And so any type of Seven Limb Offering may be understood on a verse-by-verse basis as the Ayatanas plus Klista Manas, or the Fives Senses, plus sixth sense of mind, plus a hidden sense of subtle mind.

    By "Path", he does not just mean the stages or degrees of the Path, but, just as the senses and minds are simultaneously present and continuous, the Seven Jewels are simultaneously present and continuous. Here, we might say the same for Seven Paramitas, even if Mipham does not explicitly state this, the meaning is intended to be adjunct.

    The Path or Seven Jewels are not Enlightenment, they are what makes it possible. Their deified form is from Seven Syllable Vajradaka:

    Smrti is Sri Heruka, Dharma Pravicaya is Heruki, Virya is Vajrabhairavi, Priti is Ghoracandi, Prasrabdhi is Vajrabhaskari (Light Maker), Samadhi is Vajraraudri, Upeksa is Vajradakini.

    These are not the Six Yogas, but it does include Smrti and Samadhi, which are part of them, or really, the culmination of them. So all the adjunct and parallel meanings are, of course, required, to make these powers work.


    As Fruit, the motivation is to make Complete Manifest Buddha. This means to perform Samadhi at par with the Tathagatas which means equal to All Buddhas. It manifests the Absolute:

    enlightened body
    enlightened speech
    enlightened mind
    enlightened qualities
    enlightened activity
    dharmadhatu
    primordial wisdom (Jnana or Yeshe)

    Those seven are the normal order of the Families, however, they are essentially the same as the Seven Vajra Mysteries from RGV.

    If the Body-less practice, or Sky, or Void, is well-known prior to Buddhism, then it is not much different from the Sutra level of Sunyata. There has to be this type of sunyata established to proceed. Prajna is wisdom of emptiness. Vajrasattva is Prajna-Upaya, so, if there is no prajna, he is still in a basic purifying mode and hasn't really started to tick. If we pick up the Ngondro, it generally begins with Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra and Vajrasattva. And so the sunyata rinses the mind and produces a change in being that is considered essential. This came out in written form at least as early as ca. year 75 and for most purposes was the most advanced teaching for centuries.

    The Final Turning of the Wheel of Dharma is Womb of Compassion, Garbhadhatu, or Tathagatagarbha. This states that Buddha Nature is inherently potential in all beings. And this is chiefly compiled into Ratna Gotra Vibhaga, or RGV, ca. 300-400, also called Uttaratantra.

    Ratnamati was said to be a major proponent of this doctrine ca. 500, and became a teacher to Nagarjuna, another well-known proponent being Sthiramati.

    This is represented in the brief Lion's Roar Sutra of Queen Srimala Devi whose first chapter is Removing Doubt, and the same continues in the guise of Lion's Roar Samadhi and can be seen in Avatamsaka and Lankavatara Sutras, or on Simhanada deities.

    It is like Mipham gave Three Jewels utilizing the system of Seven, or has shown the main way that Seven works for non-Buddhas as Grounds, Path, and Fruit. That is how I am able to see it as the core of all of the doctrines and explanations, like a "container". It does not seem to contradict Vajra Rosary, but resembles it. In practice, of course, the Sixth or Vajrasattva is the main "developmental unit", which is why Dakini Jala or a Six Family Wheel is the main technique, and we usually look at the seventh as almost unreachable, which is why the Seven Syllable deity is that of Completion Stage. That is a bit like HPB saying a Chela will activate his sixth and seventh tattvas before you get into the comprehensive mandalas like Kalachakra, Manjughosha, or Dakarnava. In that case, she makes sense with respect to Buddhism.

    Aeon published an essay which does a decent job at comparing Catuskoti to western math and logic and comes to the conclusion that Buddhism has found a way to talk about the Ineffable.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote This consists of the Sister class of deities, which are "subterranean", having a dual meaning. In one sense, it is none other than demons in the descending bowels of the hot hells interior to the earth. At the same time, "subterranean" also means "under the surface of the body", so i. e. the Chakras, Channels, and Sacred Sites and their yoginis.
    In the flitting, and I haven't figure this out or been told anything about it, I am the silver skinned dakini if it happens immediately, if it delays for some reason, I become ashes and fierce. Don't really know what that all means but I do see how they can be a Sister class.
    Quote And so when I look at the disciples in Avatamsaka Sutra, then there must be a difference between them and the Hearers who are able to watch Buddha's magical manifestation, and there could be all sorts of details, but the main factor appears to be Karuna. And this is Avalokiteshvara.
    Which has a complex relationship to Upaya Paramita? There has to be a reason why both are called compassion. And are distinguished yet again from something like Dana Paramita.

    Quote We begin with the mastery of that organ which is situated at the base of the brain, in the pharynx, and called by Western anatomists the Pituitary Body. In the series of the objective cranial organs, corresponding to the subjective Tattvic principles, it stands to the “Third Eye” (Pineal Gland) as Manas stands to Buddhi; the arousing and awakening of the Third Eye must be performed by that vascular organ, that insignificant little body, of which, once again, physiology knows nothing at all. The one is the Energizer of WILL, the other that of Clairvoyant Perception.
    I think nowadays, we do know what those other branches against the spine do, and we do know what the pituitary gland does. Nevertheless, there is no stopping them from doing other things than what has been teased out by closed loop neuroscience.

    Quote The main difference I think between Kama and Bliss is the factor of Grasping. If you relax the Grasping and start acting out of Karuna, you will have fewer problems in Kama Loka or "that which is Grasped".
    I am a little lost on Kama versus Bliss in my shaking, unless Kama would be when the bliss was not acting like energy, like in a downward flow that needs to be redirected. On the other hand, I'm also a little at a loss on the whole skillful means thing that is going on, and how it is supposed to play out.

    Quote In the case of things that are physically therapeutic, it is all news and information to me. Like H. H. Dalai Lama says, he has never been depressed, and that makes him sad since he does not think he really understands what happens to someone who is depressed. I understand psychological problems quite well, and, I have no real recognition of physical discomfort, since my body will naturally push itself into a very good feeling. It is like I am ignorant about why this might not happen for everyone automatically.
    Some of it is rudimentary -- this shoulder is aching from, say, pulling out weeds that were too much force and should have been attacked with a trowel, or fingers that are kind of cramped from too much practicing piano, and that is just sort of burrowing into the joint or muscle with, I guess, will, and moving things around and shaking them until the cramp or strain is gone away. Others, injury or, say migraines, are more complicated. A migraine is actually a neurological event that becomes a pain event, so I'm not really sure what the physical mechanism is there, but it requires a shaking in which I make my head come apart and more, so not all physical in its perception (It works well to peel my scalp away from my skull and shake them in different directions and along different planes until I find the center of the migraine and sort of dissolve it).

    Quote And so if you "opened" something based around the hypnagogic or cusp-of-falling-asleep, that makes sense...once you got the hang of it, then it perhaps "mobilized" to work at other times or for reasons other than discomfort?
    It would not be at all hard, but there are reasons why it is easier and better to do at night on waking from sleep. What the hypnagogic (or to be totally accurate, hypnopompic because it is waking) state provides is an easy place where I have listening (in the Taiji sense) but have no constructed goals -- If I did this during the day from waking, I would either have goals, or would have to meditate to not have them, and that latter would take some time. Time is the big thing, some of these shakings last for hours. It doesn't bother me if they happen at night since they are easily just as good as sleep for regenerating. So it saves quite a bit of time.

    But yes, I could do it from waking and not be doing discomfort management. I do, actually, sometimes during my standing, or sometimes in the shower. The latter is tricky because I could lose my footing, especially if any of the kriya happened.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    And so when I look at the disciples in Avatamsaka Sutra, then there must be a difference between them and the Hearers who are able to watch Buddha's magical manifestation, and there could be all sorts of details, but the main factor appears to be Karuna. And this is Avalokiteshvara.

    Which has a complex relationship to Upaya Paramita? There has to be a reason why both are called compassion. And are distinguished yet again from something like Dana Paramita.

    I am not sure it is all that complex, it simply seems to be progressed, so on the one hand, there is Inner Bliss arising, and, on the other, sentient beings are being benefitted by one's presence. The prophecy for Queen Srimala's Buddhahood in 20,000 eons says:

    Any sentient being born in that Buddha land will surpass the Paranirmitavasavartin deities in pleasure; glory of shape and color; splendor in the sense objects of form, sound, odor, smell, tangibles; and ecstasy of that sentient being in all enjoyments.

    It is referring to the sixth plane of Kama Loka. If you surpass them, you have seen through their tricks and increased into the Akanistha. The state of sin in the sixth plane is receiving Objects of Desire Offered by Others. You don't have to bother to want whatever you want, since it is being given to you.

    So although she was an instant Buddhist genius, in terms of doctrine and ability, the Karuna and roots of goodness necessary from there to Buddhahood take a very long time.

    Upaya is a Paramita, which may have certain characteristics of its own, but it also has meaning as the scale of practice overall.


    Upāya (उपाय, “means”) refers to the “process of various experiences through which the Sādhaka has to pass before the deity is realised and visualised”.—The Guhyasamāja (chapter 18) calls this process Upāya (means) which is recognised as of four kinds.

    The four upāyas are:—

    Sevā (worship),
    Upasādhana,
    Sādhana,
    Mahāsādhana.

    Sevā (worship) is again sub-divided into two, namely, Sāmānya (ordinary) and Uttama (excellent). Of these two, the Sāmānya-sevā consists of four Vajras: first, the conception of Śūnyatā; second, its transformation into the germ-syllable; third, its evolution in the form of a deity, and the fourth, the external representation of the deity.

    In the Uttamasevā (excellent worship), Yoga with its six limbs should be employed. These six limbs are:

    Pratyāhāra,
    Dhyāna,
    Prāṇāyāma,
    Dhāraṇā,
    Anusmṛti,
    Samādhi.

    Shiva tantra also has a similar Sadanga Yoga, but the order is shuffled. This one here as far as I know is identical in all sadhanas.

    So the basic Seva is like the Kriya-Chara process where we can iterate an extremely specific process of how Buddhism defines Divinity. Higher Seva is intended to progress into Sadhana or spiritual practice which has degrees that are something like Near Approach, Realization, Actualization. This is its own "genre", which is not to say you can't weave at a loom, or fletch arrows, or pound sesame seeds while doing Mahamudra. It is specific to itself, for instance the way mandalas work.

    The Six Limbs could almost be said to be three pairs.

    My personality has always included in its daily routine, a type of cleansing of the senses. I have to shut everything off and relax. This is not "quite" ostensible spiritual practice, but it is the basic approach of the first "pair" which is like a "level" of practice.

    Pratyahara is an ancient term for subjugation of the mind and senses. It means Control of Food, and is a withdrawal from sense-objects, and esoterically is like the Puranic description:

    1a) Pratyāhāra (प्रत्याहार).—The stage of the dissolution or withdrawal of creation on the commencement of pralaya at the end of Kali; then the primordial spirit (avyakta) swallows that which is manifest (vyakta) waters swallow the gandha quality of the earth thus plunging the earth in waters; then the rasa quality of the waters gets merged in fire which spreads in all directions; the rūpa quality of fire is in turn eaten away by wind; this permeates all the ten directions, both above and below; the sparśa quality of wind is swallowed by ākāśā; the śabda (sound) quality of which is overwhelmed by bhūta and other gross elements; the great souls absorb these (mahā); seven Prakṛtis one covering the other.

    And so it covers the spectrum from quiet time to, oh, say, universal annihilation--meditation is perhaps stronger than the first, and weaker than the second, but we could say Yoga begins around sense withdrawal and the deprivation of discursive mind.


    In one sense, a Dhyana is a verse spoken during a Puja that describes a deity's form.

    Dhyana is also a Paramita--the fifth, right before Prajna; it is "the Dhyanas" as from the Pali Canon; and in Guhyasamaja, Dhyāna (meditation) is explained as the conception of the five desired objects through the five Dhyāni Buddhas, namely, Vairocana, Ratnasambhava, Amitābha, Amoghasiddhi and Akṣobhya.

    This Dhyāna is again subdivided into five kinds:

    Vitarka (cogitation),
    Vicāra (thinking),
    Priti (pleasure),
    Sukha (happiness),
    Ekāgratā (concentration).

    And so here you already have something that means meditation, that is suspiciously synonymous to samadhi. It includes the pre- or non-tantric "Concentrations". It adds what is eventually called Bliss.

    So on its own, Pratyahara and Dhyana already constitute what could be called "a meditation session". Concentration could be towards any object, a tattva symbol such as a Kasina disk, or a Dharma subject, etc.

    The next part however is different because it is Yoga and it is intended to manipulate the subtle body, starting with Pranayama, and then, Dharana is mostly the stability or non-decay of the condition induced by Pranayama.

    At this point, is there such a thing as a Yoga deity, yes. Guru Yoga is like that. This is where the "system of Taras" or Sadhanamala deities shines.

    This would be the phase heavily emphasized by Jnanapada, Anadagarbha, Bu-ston, Yogi Chen, and for example Traktung Rinpoche's Generation Phase at over three hundred pages. They feel that a person with reasonable aptitude can "get" Kriya--Charya without too much trouble, and here, where it starts heating up a little bit, you need a lot more work, rather than the most difficult or presumably Completion Stage material.


    Sadhana, or Deity or Ista Devata or Yidam Yoga, consists of:


    Source: archive.org: The Indian Buddhist Iconography

    1) Sādhana (साधन) refers to psychic exercises in the form of visualization and intense meditation.—One of the chief topics dealt with in Vajrayāna is the deity. These deities are a product of psychic exercises of the most subtle character, and are visualized by the worshipper in the course of intense meditation. These psychic exercises are called the Sādhanas. [...] The Tantrics who were the advocates of psychic culture, by persistent efforts through mental exercises, used to obtain super-normal powers which were known as Siddhis. Those who gained such Siddhis were called Siddhas, and the process through which they obtained Siddha is called Sādhana.

    The Sādhana or the process prescribed for attaining the different Siddhis forms the bulk of the Tantric literature of both the Buddhists and the Hindus. [...] The Buddhists had a special literature called the Sādhanas and they were always written in Sanskrit by many of the well known Tantric authors and the Mahāsiddhas. This literature is now almost lost in original Sanskrit, but fortunately for us some collections of Sādhanas are still extant. These collections were given the names of Sādhanamālā and Sādhanasamuccaya. [...] The Sādhana in all cases is prescribed for the realisation of some God or Goddess according to a fixed procedure laid therein.

    2) Sādhana (साधन) refers to the third of the four upāyas (“means”) through which the Sādhaka has to pass before the deity is realised and visualised according to the Guhyasamāja chapter 18.

    Source: Shambala Publications: Tibetan Buddhism

    Sādhana Skt.; derived from sādh, “to arrive at the goal” and meaning roughly “means to completion or perfection.” In Vajrayāna Buddhism, a term for a particular type of liturgi­cal text and the meditation practices presented in it. Sādhana texts describe in a detailed fash­ion deities to be experienced as spiritual reali­ties and the entire process from graphic visual­ization of them to dissolving them into formless meditation. Performing this type of religious practice, which is central to Tibetan Buddhism, requires empowerment and consecration by the master for practice connected with the particular deity involved. Part of this is trans­mission of the mantra associated with the deity.

    Source: academia.edu: A Collection of Tantric Ritual Texts

    Sādhana (साधन) is a genre of Tantric literature describing the stages of the yogic practices of various Tantric deities to be visualized and invoked to perform the divine actions.

    General definition (in Buddhism)

    Source: McGill University: He dances, she shakes: The possessed mood of nonduality in Buddhist tantric sex

    A sādhana literally translates as a “means of attainment” and is the way that tantric practitioners can become their chosen deities (istadevata). Sādhanas provide step-by-step guidelines to imagine oneself as a buddha, inside and out, at both a visual and aesthetic level. Instructions are given in both prose and poetic form, and the poems are often attributed to highly realized authors and establish the ritual and aesthetic mood through reiterating the goals of practice.

    So all that also "is" Upaya, of the kind which begets Samadhi, which itself is an evolute of Dhyana, which is close to saying that development of Dhyana Paramita begets Prajna Paramita.

    In simple terms, one could perhaps say the Dhyana is Sutra level, and Pranayama is Tapas which is Tantra level, so the indicated class of Samadhi of Six Limb Yoga must be employing tantric development.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote It is referring to the sixth plane of Kama Loka. If you surpass them, you have seen through their tricks and increased into the Akanistha. The state of sin in the sixth plane is receiving Objects of Desire Offered by Others. You don't have to bother to want whatever you want, since it is being given to you.
    I spent nearly three nights at "the fulcrum", the fattened intersection of spaces of dissolve, decay, and decompose, the three jewels, which maybe apropos as Objects of Desire Offered by Others. The night before last, I spent hours there, and became quite -- not sure which word to choose -- either "proficient" or "comfortable" or "stagnant" waiting at no being for hours on end, with certain parts of this triumvirate accessible all day long and rumblings of others constantly working in the background. At the end of the night before last, I was roundly chewed out for that sense of accomplishment, and for the ritual attachment it was bringing.

    So last night, the sum total of the infinities there was relegated to its domain, and I was, by means of an extremely strenuous physical position and a lot of pushing and working from them, lit on "fire" from the base of the inside of my skull to the crown and then the crown consumed and straight/wavy lines -- hairs apparently -- filled that space to upwards above my head, shooting upwards. Afterward, it seemed logical to "understand" finally why so many are described as having hair that stands straight upward.

    I'm mentioning this because it seems so interesting a coincidence that you are mentioning a trap by objects of desire given by others. Although I'm not sure a three-fold infinity is what they meant by such an object.

    Quote The Sādhana or the process prescribed for attaining the different Siddhis forms the bulk of the Tantric literature of both the Buddhists and the Hindus. [...] The Buddhists had a special literature called the Sādhanas and they were always written in Sanskrit by many of the well known Tantric authors and the Mahāsiddhas. This literature is now almost lost in original Sanskrit, but fortunately for us some collections of Sādhanas are still extant. These collections were given the names of Sādhanamālā and Sādhanasamuccaya. [...] The Sādhana in all cases is prescribed for the realisation of some God or Goddess according to a fixed procedure laid therein.
    I think Alexandra David-Neel describes this as having to earn a living.
    Quote A sādhana literally translates as a “means of attainment” and is the way that tantric practitioners can become their chosen deities (istadevata). Sādhanas provide step-by-step guidelines to imagine oneself as a buddha, inside and out, at both a visual and aesthetic level. Instructions are given in both prose and poetic form, and the poems are often attributed to highly realized authors and establish the ritual and aesthetic mood through reiterating the goals of practice.

    So all that also "is" Upaya, of the kind which begets Samadhi, which itself is an evolute of Dhyana, which is close to saying that development of Dhyana Paramita begets Prajna Paramita.
    This is another place where the shaking is backwards from the meditation.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    So last night, the sum total of the infinities there was relegated to its domain, and I was, by means of an extremely strenuous physical position and a lot of pushing and working from them, lit on "fire" from the base of the inside of my skull to the crown and then the crown consumed and straight/wavy lines -- hairs apparently -- filled that space to upwards above my head, shooting upwards. Afterward, it seemed logical to "understand" finally why so many are described as having hair that stands straight upward.

    I'm mentioning this because it seems so interesting a coincidence that you are mentioning a trap by objects of desire given by others. Although I'm not sure a three-fold infinity is what they meant by such an object.
    Haha, no, that is not what they meant.

    They meant I don't have to even think about liking apples since a steady stream of devotees bring me apples. It is lazy beyond lazy. In the fifth sub-plane, you have to think of the apple, and it appears. So these upper planes are like the ultimate in temptation.

    I have to shed the appetite for apples, they are not needed in the subtle body, it is an attachment to an earthly experience.

    The reverse of this is in the sadhanas as Offerings, i. e., we give away the best things we can come up with, to someone who does not need it.

    By doing the Offerings, eventually the senses such as Taste are quelled, and I won't sit around in the subtle body getting hungry. Usually a person has to train in this a lot, and I guess it could only be called "significant progress" that would reveal any type of Jewel or Triple Jewel in the core of the head/throat which is a lot more powerful and interesting than mundane consciousness.

    A desire to see or have this is not like an earthly desire, it is like calling Kurukulla "the one everyone wants", or that all beings' wishes are really Wishes for Enlightenment, and so on. It is really some kind of divine desire, that lacks Grasping, and lacks the collation of thoughtforms driven by Samsara Skandha.

    Yes, shaking is a bit backwards from sadhana, although the Signs still sound accurate. This one is often called Flameswept Hair, or Ratna Ketu. If I followed the progression, most Vajrayoginis or Varahis do not have it, but Bharati does.

    According to her, Big Hair should become accompanied by The Vessel, or i. e. descent of nectar back to the navel or dantian around where this whole thing started.

    That of course sounds opposite to fire bursting through one's crown aperture.

    This upwards energy can form the Vajra Danda, which is simply an extension of the Avadhut, and it can accumulate colorful mists and so forth.

    When that thing is stable and able to connect with Higher Yoni Triangle, and the Vessel is full of Mercury, then, boom, you have attained Sahaja, which can reach the Para Sunya beyond the Triangle. Many schools lump sahaja in with samadhi and make everything about the same, but, in Buddhism, Sahaja has this extremely specific meaning.

    It is all an advancement of non-dual Vajrasattva.

    Vajrasattva progresses from Prajna--Upaya to Prajna--Karuna. Even from a Zen blog, we can get close to the right idea:

    Ideally speaking, Karuna is the natural expression of Prajna. In deep samadhi one can realize that there is no separation between self and other, and that this whole world is one single organic and vividly alive body. That enlightening insight (Prajna) comes with a total identification with all the different parts of this body – however unlikely some might seem to be! – and a great urge to take good care them (Karuna). We start to feel more responsible for everyone’s well-being.


    For identification with unlikely parts of the body, the Tantras do have a complex Nyasa or system of placement of the Pithas, but, few of them are identical. One thing that gets my attention is the "repetition" of Khandaroha, since she is a Dakini of the Central Lotus, but, she is also always repeated around the lower centers and sometimes thought of as "the Bulb".

    In the body, the lower Pithas (or those related to Evacuative Wind) are usually named for Pretapuri, "City of the Dead", said by Naro to be at the India--Nepal border; another being Himalaya; and Grhadeva.

    Vajra Rosary is the most basic here and does not involve yoginis; it just says:

    You know the Himalaya
    As the crotch,
    The sign [male or female organ]
    As Grihadeva,
    The rectum
    As Pretapuri


    With Varahi, Pretapurī is to be contemplated as situated in the reproductive organs, ruled by Cakravega and Mahabala.

    Vajradaka Tantra associates Pretapuri with Patalavasini, "a woman living underground".

    In the Abhidhānottarottaratantra there is the Ḍāka deity named Vajraḍāka standing in the center of the districts named Pretapurī (Pretādhivāsinī), Gṛhadevatā, Saurāṣṭra and Suvarṇadvīpa.

    In Dakarnava, Pretapuri is one of the sixty-four channels in the Nirmana Chakra.

    With Varahi, Himalaya is also in the genitals, but ruled by Khaganana and Virupaksha.

    Himalaya is part of the Vak Chakra, associated with the Ḍākinī named Bhūcarī (‘a woman going on the ground’), according to the 9th-centruy Vajraḍākatantra.

    According to the Vajraḍākavivṛti, the districts Himagiri (Himālaya), Kāńcī, Devīkoṭa and Rāmeśvara are associated with the family deity of Saṃcālinī; while in the Abhidhānottarottaratantra there is the Ḍāka deity named Padmaḍāka standing in the center of the districts named Kaliṅga, Kāńcī, Lampāka and Himālaya (Himagiri).

    Both Varahi and Vajradaka seem to place minor Khandaroha in Grhadeva; the latter pairs her with Ratnavajra.

    Our tantras have failed to say what the subtle body "is"; instead, they have similar systems of "what it does". The Six Yogas are always the same, but, the Pithas are not.

    Most of them indicate two types of sexual chakras, one at the root, the other at the tip of the organ. The area is mainly associated with Patala Vasini or Bhucari, hence, subterranean and Sister class.

    It would be correct to say this center is totally ignored at first, and, everything I have traced so far to the arising of Bharati has nothing to do with it.

    Somewhere along the line, you do get Yoga deities who have a syllable at their Secret Place. So there is at least something that intervenes before a large twenty-four point Nyasa.

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