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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I am asking this question both because I want to find out if anyone else has these experiences, and because I want to know what they call them.

    About a year and a half ago, I was doing standing, which is standing meditation (also called zhan zhuang), and when I was done, I had the clear perception of another body, coincident with my physical body, that was clear and light green in color. The perception was so strong, and the body so complete that I spent the next hour and a half with my eyes closed, going about the business of showering, dressing, and getting ready for work. Eyes closed because I could still see, and I picked up the soap, for instance, with my green clear hands, and washed my green clear body.

    I have had a lot of experiences related to this (and related to spiritual matters with which this is very related) over the intervening time. I wrote some stuff up at The Dao Bums, I haven't posted there in a while, just because I'm behind, not because I've stopped.

    My questions are:

    1) Have you had an experience like this with an alternate body which is clear?

    2) What are you calling it? I would love to know how to find info on it on the internet.

    It isn't the only thing I have questions about but it is the one thing in the past year and a half for which I haven't been able to find a suitable term to search on to find others to whom this has happened.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I think so 🍵 It’s been known as such in India among so called “twice born Brahmins” who are introduced to existence of the “second body” mostly through sacred rituals in childhood or early teenage though some of the children retain the awareness of it spontaneously,
    it’s how the original worship and sacred rituals were practiced here since ancient times, by Brahmins. It really is not a caste of people rather than group of people as such individuals are born among all social groups even though there are also family lineages where the awareness and knowledge is shared and accompanied by philosophical process, study of Vedas and meditation /ritual/discipline practices of many kinds.

    The awareness and “appearance” of this body- we all naturally posses in “seed form”” can manifest through meditation practice.

    It’s known and taught about as “illusory body” in Tibetan Buddhist tradition and there is whole array of “higher yoga tantras” such as the Guhyasamaja tantra (teaching, lineage) that focus on manifestation of this second body,
    firstly as “impure illusory body”,
    then “transitional -or practice- illusory body”
    the last of which is permanent “body of clear light” that is the “pure illusory body” of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

    Lots depends on how well do you continue with your own practice and daily life.

    The other body though it seems invincible at glance is also subject to environmental stress and defilement. It participates energetically, on subtle level.
    If you break your “chi”/prana, energy on human level or suffer shock, the second body automatically disconnects for a moment and depending on state of individual mind, it takes time to reappear.
    That’s why daily practice and positive attenuation of mind are important,
    helping us to strengthen the connection so that we are able to pass through the worlds conditions “as a whole”.


    The closest practical advice you could find more easily these days may be in the explanations on illusory body in Buddhist Father Tantras such as the Guhyasamaja.

    Though in fact the Hindu tradition hold the original knowledge it has been kept sacred and not taught in public manner.
    Buddhist tantras likewise originated mostly with Indian Mahasiddhas and later passed on their students regardless their caste and creed. In those days yogis and hermits travelled on foot and with Caravans along the Silk Road all the way from todays Afghanistan, Iran, to the Balkans and on the other end through India to China, some crossed the sea and found their sanctuaries in Java, Sri Lanka, Indonesia.
    So pieces and lost traces of those teachings live scattered among many cultures in the East, from Sufis to Hindus, Buddhists , Taoists and many others.



    Thanks you are blessed🌟🌟🌟


    Keep your good practice and wash frequently ..🍀🍀🍀 hope it helps🙏
    Last edited by Agape; 30th June 2020 at 04:57.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Thank you, I was not aware that there were multiple illusory bodies and this could be one, but it does make sense. And thank you for the pointer to the Guhyasamaja Tantra. I keep hearing bits and pieces about it but have not looked at it.

    The existence of my clear body had the eventual effect of "splitting" my practice, or rather creating a new practice that was added on. I am still doing my standing meditation, but I also do shaking, which I might call "shaking meditation" since it's a daily (nightly) practice. It is full of visions and trainings, during it, my clear body is there and I alternate between bodies depending on the needs of the moment.

    There might be some differences with the second body you mention with the twice-born, in that the gender of my clear body is opposite.

    What you said about the purification of my clear body also makes some sense as long as that is a gradual process, it has changed over time. So has my physical body, as the trainings I mentioned have caused a lot of muscular development and innervation and conscious control over primarily my abdomen but also things like my scalp muscles.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Yes, or something similar.

    Not colored, but, more literally "clear".

    I would just call it "Double",

    In my experience, it is a pre-cursor to something less "body-like" and more "auric egg".

    But there is a huge difference between random, instinctual vision, and that derived from spiritual practice.

    The way Agape is describing it is roughly correct but I would step it down a bit.

    Guhyasamaja is incredibly advanced, aimed at tantric Completion Stage.

    There are Dharmas considered "borderline" that are not the major aspects of Completion Stage: Dream and Impure Illusory Body. In other words, one might arrive at them on one's own/with little training.

    The important underpinning is not Father Tantra--which is Completion Stage emphasizing Method or Karuna--but Yoga Tantra emphasizing Generation Stage. Particularly Svadisthana or Self-Blessing. Here we are trying to invoke what Buddhists call Sambhogakaya. It arises like a Water Moon.

    So yes I have experienced such things, but, actual training does not say much about this double body per se. It deals with Purification or i. e. just spiritual practice itself. This tells us that the clearish body and glowing phenomena will also dissolve, will go as un-noticed as your physical body when you found you could operate it as a green form. Guhyasamaja is a technique that is like a "switch" that melts the lower light and displays Gnostic Lights.

    If we want to stay safe and become wise, we do not "do" Guhyasamaja, but are learning, conceptually, and by inner experience, what it is dealing with.

    The most relevant and explanatory tantra is probably Sarvadurgati Parishodana.

    It is a Yoga tantra and so it is designed to work with breathing and mantra in a way that is the basic definition of Divinity.

    It imports the majority of the Hindu pantheon up to Durga. It makes the main "stamp" of meditation, pattern of Tri-samadhi or Tri-Kaya. Along with this, it has the series of adventures of Vajrapani in ascending states of Kama Loka or the astral plane. So in other words he is showing how to dissolve its phenomena and reach the Pure Land or Akanistha where the "real" teaching takes place.

    It is the "Buddhist Book of the Dead" containing the funeral rite--plus, it is not that mysterious. It works on a Sutra basis. One day a month should be based on chanting from it, and this is done publicly, so everyone may absorb it and make of it what they will. On an outer basis, this is like a luck charm, Preventing Bad Rebirths. But on an esoteric level, it means directly entering the Bardo or Antara after-death consciousness and purifying it by awakening it to a condition that cannot be disturbed.

    In the pantheon of Buddhism, Vajrapani is not the only one who can do this teaching. Manjushri can do it as Yamantaka or Vajrabhairava. Well, if you go back and check, there is also such a thing as Manjushri Guhyasamaja. And this actually is designed to use Manjushri at a Yoga level and move through the teachings in a graded manner.

    So I can't say that much about the double, but, if it is understood as a platform for spiritual practice, the Buddhist method is not really a mechanical description of bodies and planes, but, more like a driver's manual about how it works mentally, and is all expressed in terms of practice. Historically in the tantric university system, Manjushri and Sarvadurgati Yoga tantra were used as the basis for entry to higher tantra; this has not really changed, in terms of inner meaning.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Thank you, I was not aware that there were multiple illusory bodies and this could be one, but it does make sense. And thank you for the pointer to the Guhyasamaja Tantra. I keep hearing bits and pieces about it but have not looked at it.

    The existence of my clear body had the eventual effect of "splitting" my practice, or rather creating a new practice that was added on. I am still doing my standing meditation, but I also do shaking, which I might call "shaking meditation" since it's a daily (nightly) practice. It is full of visions and trainings, during it, my clear body is there and I alternate between bodies depending on the needs of the moment.

    There might be some differences with the second body you mention with the twice-born, in that the gender of my clear body is opposite.

    What you said about the purification of my clear body also makes some sense as long as that is a gradual process, it has changed over time. So has my physical body, as the trainings I mentioned have caused a lot of muscular development and innervation and conscious control over primarily my abdomen but also things like my scalp muscles.

    That’s very interesting to me since the kind of practice you do differs from whatever I’ve practised, you seem to have very good training indeed.

    Many thanks for sharing 🙏

    Your practice is very advanced at this point so whatever you do, please do not lose it.

    Couple of key points are essential to the manifestation of the “body of clear light” that are commonly understood as “holding your chi”
    following techniques of pranayama( literally “restrained breathing”).

    The “holding of prana” exercises are more advanced but known to chi-Kung practitioners and advanced martial artists similarly to practising yogis.

    If your “light body” manifests almost permanently it should be able to guide you by its own nature so don’t be doubtful of it and place part of your weight and trust in it. In long term and guess you’ve probably said that, it also helps to transform the “ordinary body” and transfer energy from the gross to the subtle realm.


    Even in its early stages it’s capable of “healing by touch” and performing many small miracles.

    I’ve had the experience of waking up people from coma in the street, following long term meditation practice ( was in 6 years of Kalachakra retreat at that time). I did not expect it to happen but all were spontaneous events, without the need of using any physical force.

    Guhyasamaja Tantra is extremely complicated from first look but the trouble with most scholars and foreigners here is getting lost in the terms, studying too much but having little meditation practice time.
    In reality it never was a “teaching” but collection of practices.

    People misunderstand Tibetan Buddhist teachings for the same reason.

    They often describe the “options” and pathways for individual yogis as experienced long ago and summarised by one or another ancient scholar.

    Even Tibetan monks nowadays who study more than practise do dwell on terms as taught in their lineages but don’t get the point.

    In short, there are many ways to “get there” and there is no straight manual. Every advanced meditation practice depends on the individual.

    Different genders of the “illusory body” are quite in norm here as well.

    Many lamas whose meditation object is a female Buddha for example would then manifest clear light body of female character and vice versa.

    Little bit of joke: it’s not considered “transgender”.


    You may also bring the other body to meditative practice of its own and expand it,
    fill your space with colours, its own resounding voice if it ever starts talking,
    don’t be surprised.

    Again , many blessings , same to Shaberon ,
    apologies I prefer not to discuss the topic in scholastic manner but guess it’s what you have said as well 😷
    As they would say in Tibet “every lama have their own teaching”.


    🌟🍀🌟

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    [...]
    The most relevant and explanatory tantra is probably Sarvadurgati Parishodana.

    [...]

    It is the "Buddhist Book of the Dead" containing the funeral rite--plus, it is not that mysterious. It works on a Sutra basis. One day a month should be based on chanting from it, and this is done publicly, so everyone may absorb it and make of it what they will. On an outer basis, this is like a luck charm, Preventing Bad Rebirths. But on an esoteric level, it means directly entering the Bardo or Antara after-death consciousness and purifying it by awakening it to a condition that cannot be disturbed.

    Is the Sarvadurgati Parishodana currently available? I looked up and found an edition by T. Skorupski (1983), it seems out of print. There is an online edition at Archive, if I can get the print big enough I will take a look, thank you.

    It is interesting that you mention a Buddhist "Book of the Dead". I had ended up having to read Lama Lodu's Bardo Teachings: The Way of Death and Rebirth to make it through some of the shaking visions last year (it's the Chikai Bardo rather than the Chonyi Bardo which is the text translated in the Bardo Thodol translations), specifically about the Phowa for dying. I'm confronted with it again recently.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Couple of key points are essential to the manifestation of the “body of clear light” that are commonly understood as “holding your chi”
    following techniques of pranayama( literally “restrained breathing”).

    The “holding of prana” exercises are more advanced but known to chi-Kung practitioners and advanced martial artists similarly to practising yogis.
    Not sure I understand this one, do you know the Chinese for it? When doing my standing I do several types of breathing, some from tradition and one derived from Lama Yeshe's book on Inner Fire. When I'm doing my shaking there are periods of other breathings, I don't evoke them consciously I just "listen" them.

    Quote Even in its early stages it’s capable of “healing by touch” and performing many small miracles.
    I don't know how I would fare at this, I have healed myself of things like migraines and I alleviate breathing problems, and I have a lot of heat coming out of my hands at times, but other than that, I wouldn't know where to start.

    Quote Different genders of the “illusory body” are quite in norm here as well.

    Many lamas whose meditation object is a female Buddha for example would then manifest clear light body of female character and vice versa.
    Thank you for this, I knew they had female guru deities, but wasn't sure about their manifested bodies.

    Quote Little bit of joke: it’s not considered “transgender”.
    It seems like more of the near opposite, two complete bodies each very cis. I "dissolve" sometimes and then I "am" bodily nor a body at all, sometimes the mud on the bank of a stream, sometimes a valley, occasionally a desert breeze, sometimes a corpse rotting or a seed germinating.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    Is the Sarvadurgati Parishodana currently available? I looked up and found an edition by T. Skorupski (1983), it seems out of print. There is an online edition at Archive, if I can get the print big enough I will take a look, thank you.

    It is interesting that you mention a Buddhist "Book of the Dead". I had ended up having to read Lama Lodu's Bardo Teachings: The Way of Death and Rebirth to make it through some of the shaking visions last year (it's the Chikai Bardo rather than the Chonyi Bardo which is the text translated in the Bardo Thodol translations), specifically about the Phowa for dying. I'm confronted with it again recently.
    That is the English version--1983 typewritten PhD thesis. We also have one in Sanskrit and probably Tibetan.

    Its details are also recorded in Nispanna Yogavali (i. e. the main mandala design).

    This is Sarvadurgati Parishodana with its ancilliary mandalas:









    1. Sarvavid Vairochana with 37 principal deities

    2. Body-Shakyamuni (8 deities)
    3. Mind-Vajrapani with 4 deities
    4. Speech-Amitayus with 4 deities
    5. Qualities-Chakravartin (numerous deities)
    6. Activity-Jvalanala with 12 deities

    7. Vajrapani and the 4 Direction Kings
    8. Vajrapani and the 8 Dikpala (bottom right)
    9. Trailokyavijaya and the 8 Planets
    10. Vajrapani and the 8 Great Nagas
    11. Trailokyavijaya and the 9 Bhairavas
    12. Trailokyavijaya and the 8 Mahadevas


    Those are not necessarily in visual order.

    It is not among the highest systems, because it is centered on Vairocana, meaning Form and the Sense of Sight, which is the main basic thing in the same fivefold symbology used by Pythagoras, Ayurveda, or Shiva Pashupati. Space Element--90% of our waking consciousness is occupied by Sight.

    Guhyasamaja is more advanced because the obvious--Sight or Form--is replaced by something else in Space. Part of the key in there being different kinds of tantras is how the middle part or Space evolves.

    It is a basic system because the Body Mandala is Shakyamuni Buddha. And then it makes a reference to Five Buddha Families: Body, Speech, Mind, Qualities, Activity. In various tantras, Body Mandala is done as various deities, and so then yes, there are males taking female form and vice versa. However, the function, as taught in this system, remains constant; for example, the main mandala of thirty-seven deities refers to the same thirty-seven point enlightenment that is used everywhere, like in Shingon in Japan. It is a pretty big list that might work if you are a monk, but, by analysis, the thirty-seven consist of multiple duplicates, and so there are ways of learning mostly the same thing based on smaller groups.

    So the list is Omniscient Vairocana followed by Five Families and then Vajrapani in various states or planes of Kama Loka, which is almost the same thing as Hinduism or for instance the planets are Skandha, Shani, Bhrihaspati, etc. And so this largely is translating Hinduism into Buddhist practice; and it is the framework according to which any Buddhist system is patterned. They add a few more details and teachings, without changing or removing this unit.

    In my personal practice I have found Sarvadurgati is suited incredibly well for Janguli Tara. I tried to critically kick her off the meaning, however, she carries the meaning, and what's more is it turns out that she also works the same way in Black Yamari tantra, or i. e. a closely equivalent level or degree as is being done here in Sarvadurgati. It is all about Death. And so yes I work with Janguli and pieces of the 1983 text. That is non-canonical. I am not saying I am transmitting anything. The material itself is just as it is by definition, I just match it up and follow the teaching as closely as possible.



    The Tibetan terms you mentioned are from the three states, Chikkai, chonyid, and Sidpai, Moment of Death, Transmigration, and Seeking Rebirth. And then when you say Phowa this is Transference which, on one hand, is the same as the technique of entering a corpse or possessing a living body, but with respect to the Bardo it means something more like transferring above or beyond them. And so for instance this means Moment of Death will not affect you; it just happens, but you do not swoon or lose lucidity. So then you are talking about the highest part of the Path that we can barely define.

    I personally do not expect to achieve this kind of Phowa in this lifetime, but, in saying that Guhyasamaja is like "flipping a switch", it is the same thing, causing an experience of death while in the body. So the concept of Bardo or Antara means happening due to physical death, but, these Voids are the same as experienced when going to sleep, or, during spiritual practice that uses them, Guhyasamaja meaning "esoteric community" and being the technique that begins Completion Stage tantras.

    Being initiated to do it as a ritual is not the same as getting it to work.

    I can't say I know any special kind of evidence about Kennedy or 9/11 or anything, but, if testimony carries any weight, I will say this thing we are talking about Guhyasamaja doing, is completely real. Because I know what it does, I am in a position to say that if you follow this Yoga system, it is safe and reliable. There are ways to do it allowed by the philosophies and "rules" of Buddhism. Much of what is published for the west is too advanced and it does not work without this grounding.

    The main Tibetan canon or Kanjur and Tanjur was mostly compiled by Bu-ston. Obviously he was familiar with everything. And his teaching was the same: get the Yoga path. Even the most basic Wiki article for Yoga Tantra refers to the same texts and says the praxis is:

    Deity Yoga

    Lha Naljor

    Devata Yoga

    And that is why it is considerably beyond meditation or a mantra. It also does not use "a deva"--the word Devata means it does what the mantra says--it may appear as a deva, but is reliable.

    The Highest Yoga is called Yoganiruttara or Unexcelled Yoga. And how are we supposed to do that, if we do not have a single Devata?

    Can we catch one like a butterfly?

    No, any deity in Buddhism is an entire praxis consisting of at least all the elements delineated in Sarvadurgati Parishodana.

    Any one of them could theoretically Enlighten one into the condition of complete Phowa, which is trained by applying a Guhyasamaja-type method to them. If one is able to gain such an ability quickly, it turns out Death is Cold, and so we are training not just to be Awake but also Blissful.

    Vajrapani is important, because, in any tantra Hindu or Buddhist, the main cathartic, for the world, was the destruction of Shiva Mahadeva. And so to the Buddhists, Vajrapani is involved. The original system is heavily Hindu Puranic with a few customizations like that. None of these are mere name changes, they are something in the mind or body, and it may be difficult to explain this is not a philosophy, it is an occurrence.

    "Body-less" is so to speak an incipient condition for Guhyasamaja. Body-less is the main teaching of Yajnawalkya, King Janaka Videha, and his daughter Sita of the Ramayana--and this crew is from the same place and closest known historical predecessors of Buddha.

    Sita is accepted in Buddhism and so in actuality one may honor Sita without making a commitment to us. She is the Daughter of Earth and Immune to Fire. And so even in a non-Buddhist perspective I would suggest study Ramayana as if every word were magic; or in a Buddhist view I would study her to establish what we call Nirmana Chakra, which is our first chakra, made of mantra on the earth plane. This Yoga is not the same as any Hindu or New Age Yoga.

    In Buddhism we call Body-lessness "Empty Niche". Vairocana is looking for his wife and when he gets to her position, nothing is there, she is Body-less. And so if you can stabilize this, then, you become suited for the esoteric changes, as when Visible Form is no longer the center of Space. So the Path is definitely saying there is something "else" inside this invisible disguise.

    You can see this in architecture in Nepal, the symbolism is publicly displayed, few understand it.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Quote Couple of key points are essential to the manifestation of the “body of clear light” that are commonly understood as “holding your chi”
    following techniques of pranayama( literally “restrained breathing”).

    The “holding of prana” exercises are more advanced but known to chi-Kung practitioners and advanced martial artists similarly to practising yogis.
    Not sure I understand this one, do you know the Chinese for it? When doing my standing I do several types of breathing, some from tradition and one derived from Lama Yeshe's book on Inner Fire. When I'm doing my shaking there are periods of other breathings, I don't evoke them consciously I just "listen" them.
    I used to know even the Chinese name for it but can not recall it correctly now 🌈

    May find it for you later though if you can hold.

    Holding of the Chi, as in by firm grip. Perhaps even google translate would help..

    It was described within certain yogas of Tibetan Buddhism but mostly kept secret.

    Do you have a teacher?

    You’re supposed to be shown the most appropriate way to do this by your teacher.

    Technically, it still probably belongs to the category of Pranayama in Yoga system of Patanjali and it’s commendable to master your breathing as a guideline of energy practice.
    Breathing should never be forceful if Pranayama if done correctly.

    With exception of some exercises like Kapala Bhastrika that involves short and powerful breaths and forcefully “cleaning the skull”,
    it can not be safely recommended for everybody or online.

    People who don’t know their actual physical condition could induce themselves brain stroke, heart stroke or, in better case, twig their neck muscles.

    Even if you’re very advanced practitioner already and I hear you have lots of heat accumulated in your body, mind-energy need to be treated with cautions.

    The ancient system of Yoga where from most of these techniques originated but grew like tree branches to all sides emphasises “unity of mind and energy” as its sole purpose. By unifying the energy with your mind, knowledge is achieved and everything else is accomplished spontaneously.

    Shaking as you’ve described it, is form of pranayama and releases energies and opens channels.
    But the full experience of your “clear light body” probably appears because of your still meditation.


    You may want to learn something about the highest state of Vajradhara

    Dharana is Sanskrit word for holding among other meanings and the Yogic Seed Syllable( Sanskrit: Beej Mantra) is “Dhrk”.

    Chi Jin Gang seems to be one of the Chinese names for Vajradhara.

    http://www.highestbuddhistmasters.or...k/ebk00006.htm


    Jin Gang seems to be one term for energy holding practices.

    🙏

    Quote
    I don't know how I would fare at this, I have healed myself of things like migraines and I alleviate breathing problems, and I have a lot of heat coming out of my hands at times, but other than that, I wouldn't know where to start.
    You may choose to reduce the excessive heat through “lighter diet”. I’m not a meat eater but to purify your energy field, you may reduce oils, meat, too much nuts, dry fruits and excessive proteins and fats, that is some of them.
    Also replacing tea, coffee and soft drinks with herbal teas and pure water helps some people to cool the system, long term.

    What I figured out is important to do is find your comfortable way with it. Strict diets of all kinds produce kind of YoYo effect.

    If you can asses your body condition yourself you keep yourself always in good health, or a pay one visit to Ayurvedic doctor or naturopath around you.


    Quote It seems like more of the near opposite, two complete bodies each very cis. I "dissolve" sometimes and then I "am" bodily nor a body at all, sometimes the mud on the bank of a stream, sometimes a valley, occasionally a desert breeze, sometimes a corpse rotting or a seed germinating.

    Wonderful🌸 yes it’s very complementary, holistic state of being.


    I may have missed or deleted something accidentally as I’m editing slowly , on phone


    But can add more later if I recall. Best of good luck


    🙏🍀🙏
    Last edited by Agape; 1st July 2020 at 09:46.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I have not a lot experience in or knowledge of the Yogic or Chinese techniques or teachings. If you want to go about it from a more 'mundane' angle I'd recommend Robert Bruce's books. Either 'Energy Work' or 'Astral Dynamics'. They contain lots of 'training' tips on how to develop and stimulate the energy body/bodies for healing, psychic development and astral projection and similar.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Many thanks shaberon, for the mandala and for the extensive explanation of it. I will spend some time on it.



    Quote The Tibetan terms you mentioned are from the three states, Chikkai, chonyid, and Sidpai, Moment of Death, Transmigration, and Seeking Rebirth. And then when you say Phowa this is Transference which, on one hand, is the same as the technique of entering a corpse or possessing a living body, but with respect to the Bardo it means something more like transferring above or beyond them. And so for instance this means Moment of Death will not affect you; it just happens, but you do not swoon or lose lucidity. So then you are talking about the highest part of the Path that we can barely define.

    I personally do not expect to achieve this kind of Phowa in this lifetime, but, in saying that Guhyasamaja is like "flipping a switch", it is the same thing, causing an experience of death while in the body. So the concept of Bardo or Antara means happening due to physical death, but, these Voids are the same as experienced when going to sleep, or, during spiritual practice that uses them, Guhyasamaja meaning "esoteric community" and being the technique that begins Completion Stage tantras.
    I am aware of the three Bardos, the Chikai Bardo is the end of life one, and it came up in the context of my shaking, as did its Phowa:

    When I shake during the night it is an instruction and training. The "trainers" self-identify as Dakinis, they further have names that are the names of actual Dakinis (some are I think classified as yidams instead) in the Buddhist (vajrayana) pantheon. I don't visualize them often, most of the time they identify by a specific kriya which may or may not have anything to do with any trait they have in that pantheon, I didn't choose the kriyas. When I do visualize them sometimes they look like they are depicted in vajrayana art, sometimes not. They teach things: muscle movement and volition, states of consciousness, techniques, experiences of dissolving and of interpenetration or vast space or more mundane things like how to connect my mind to a point in my body to experience bliss there.

    In that context, they move my body in a (not sure if kriya is the best word here) movement sequence I began calling the "torso gathering bandha" since it was a rippling downward on the sides of my torso followed by a flow of bandhas up the center of my body moving bliss/energy/my awareness towards my head. Simultaneously, the previous bandha has given rise to two things I had called onions because that was what they seemed like the first time, one inside my head near the crown, white, and one at my root, red. In other contexts, these meet at my heart and produce a mandala. In the context of the torso gathering bandha, everything gets moved up into my head, my crown feels like it is open, my crown feels like the tip of a penis and my scalp like the walls of an infinite vagina. The "stuff" that was moved up by the bandha climaxes.

    I chased all this down and it is very close to the Phowa for the Chikai Bardo, if you accept it that Vajrayogini is involved. That was the connection. I was pointed to it by trying to find an explanation for a name, "The White One", which came up in the context of a mandala that displayed at my dantian during other shakings.

    It has come up recently again, this time over the location of the opening in my head. In this rendition, the passageway goes to my Shen Ting (spirit palace) instead of my Bai Hui (crown chakra). I have been explicitly told that is the passageway to death, but am still trying to figure that part out.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Thanks Agape. I did some digging based on what you said here. BTW, Jin Gang (金剛) in the context of Chinese Buddhism means "vajra".

    Quote I used to know even the Chinese name for it but can not recall it correctly now 🌈

    May find it for you later though if you can hold.

    Holding of the Chi, as in by firm grip. Perhaps even google translate would help..

    It was described within certain yogas of Tibetan Buddhism but mostly kept secret.
    Apparently, American practitioners of Qigong just call it Kumbhaka, the pranayama term. I do the following breathings when I stand, depending on circumstances:
    1) natural breathing
    2) reverse breathing
    3) qi-follows-yi microcosmic orbit
    4) wind-circle breathing
    5) vase breathing (from Tummo)
    6) ocean breathing
    7) a kind of reverse breathing/vase breathing thing I evolved myself

    Mostly, right now, I start my standing doing (1) then move to (6) and then do a combination of (6) and (7) and sometimes pile (3) or (3) and (4) on top of it. During certain periods of doing that, some breaths convert to (5) by themselves.

    The breathing in (7) is to bring my breath down into dantian (usually by ocean breath inhale), and box it the same way as for Tummo, but extremely gently, until it rolls under and will go up my spine during the exhale which is also usually ocean breath.

    Breathing during shaking is usually just natural (which is sometimes heavy because shaking is a lot of exertion), but there are movements my abdomen does that can become like a fire breath (the Kapala Bhastrika you mentioned). When they do, they are generally around 2-3 breaths/second and vary from very shallow and superimposed on my underlying breathing, to deeper and the only breathing.

    Quote Do you have a teacher?

    You’re supposed to be shown the most appropriate way to do this by your teacher.
    Interesting question. My formal training was Liuhebafa, and some Soto Zen. My liuhebafa teacher died in the 1980s. I have been practicing the standing meditation from that, and the form when possible, off and on for now 45 years. Part of the reason I sat zen was to gain some insight about problems at the time with my standing meditation.

    As for my training in all of this, I have done reading. Mostly to keep up with the experiences. As I related to shaberon, when I shake, there are Dakinis who teach and train. Your call as to whether or not that means I have teachers, I would say that I do.

    The method of training follows a pattern: They show me some state/skill which is always easy when they move me through it or manifest it. Then I have to do it myself. In between those two, there are often a lot of shakings I refer to as calisthenic, when I basically either build muscles or try the same thing in different ways trying to get it to work. There are some shakings which seem like a test -- I have to do the new technique and they watch and don't help me. There are also occasional ones (only three in a year and a half almost every night) when they "operate" on me -- install something or remove something. Install usually feels like a nerve connection or extension, remove is removing something blocking me. One at least of those was conducted with me able to watch but not move from the sidelines and took the form, in the vision, of an operation.

    Most of that is about achieving new states. Sometimes it is therapeutic. The entire thing, start to finish, runs on bliss (redirected "mental" orgasm). But recently, I have been learning about nausea as a mirror opposite to bliss (because my breathing problem can be alleviated by generating nausea for a brief period of time). The initial training (as might be imagined) was in generating and sustaining such bliss.

    As I said, I don't know whether this qualifies as having a teacher. It's a little hard to talk about, people say, "Who are you studying with?" and I mumble something about Dakinis and wonder what they think.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Thanks, Open Minded Dude, I have actually looked at some of his stuff about a year ago. One of the reasons I didn't think the clear body was an astral one is because it is always in me, unlike an astral body which goes places. And astral bodies always seem described as very close to the original.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Very beautiful and truthful, thank you for sharing and detailed explanation 🙏🌟🙏

    I’ve practiced my meditation in different systems, i prefer to think I was on my own but if I look back, I sat together with many different groups and collectives,
    taught guided meditation groups as well which I’ve nicknamed “Vajrayana group”
    for it’s always been a mixture of philosophy lessons, practices conducive to meditation itself , some pranayama, some chanting, energy work and quiet meditation practice at the end, as long as I could hold people in

    Spent years in meditation in the Kalachakra temple in Namgyal monastery and sat out all the long ceremonies, that was my favorite place and lots of energy work.

    I had to balance it in later years by lots of walking, and exercise and my need for meditation almost ceased after 6 years,
    and very powerful extraterrestrial encounter I’ve experienced in Bodhgaya 2002, at the beginning of huge Kalachakra initiation.

    For the benefit of others and since time is sparse,

    I’ve tried to turn every life activity to practice. So I enjoy doing chores and learn new things, how to fix sockets and ancient cookers, computers, shoes and other useless stuff 😷


    At the same time, most of my meditation happens on subtle energy-Mind level as a consequence of this long human dream ..

    Some days and nights I feel I can leave the dream behind and Go


    Why is there
    Another morning


    Just floated away

    🐳🐳🐳

    May many Old Students appear to attain the excellent state of Vajradhara


    🙏

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    When I shake during the night it is an instruction and training. The "trainers" self-identify as Dakinis, they further have names that are the names of actual Dakinis (some are I think classified as yidams instead) in the Buddhist (vajrayana) pantheon. I don't visualize them often, most of the time they identify by a specific kriya which may or may not have anything to do with any trait they have in that pantheon, I didn't choose the kriyas. When I do visualize them sometimes they look like they are depicted in vajrayana art, sometimes not. They teach things: muscle movement and volition, states of consciousness, techniques, experiences of dissolving and of interpenetration or vast space or more mundane things like how to connect my mind to a point in my body to experience bliss there...

    ...I chased all this down and it is very close to the Phowa for the Chikai Bardo, if you accept it that Vajrayogini is involved. That was the connection. I was pointed to it by trying to find an explanation for a name, "The White One", which came up in the context of a mandala that displayed at my dantian during other shakings.
    In that case you are describing Completion Stage or Heruka Yoga.

    Yes, Vajrayogini has equivalent mandala system like Sarvadurgati, and the Dakinis and so forth that are involved are inherent parts of one's existence. However one of her main Three Families is Jewel Family. She is more advanced and works formulaicly about the same but in actuality a little different than an image of Buddha, which, perhaps, is a better figure for the main publicly-known ritual or Sarvadurgati.


    The Indian system is explained differently than Tibet over this particular word. If you consult almost any reference it is going to tell you Heruka means Blood Drinker and give examples of Wrathful Deities.

    However, in art, it just means a simple two arm form.

    And so the Heruka Yoga means such a self-arising white one. "Completion" Stage is really just "Complete", meaning this complete working unit.

    Then for instance on the Sarvadurgati mandalas if you zoom in, you find Peaceful Vajrapani as more or less a simple two arm white form. Something like this. This is something like the operator of the Devata or Yidam. Heruka is the advanced form of Vajrasattva. And so it is really Vajrasattva that operates the Yidam, but, compared to the prior invocative process, the real Heruka is the actual Yoga of doing it with the luminous operative form.

    Dakini is like a bandwidth of elevated energy which I do not experience in those kind of details.

    They are traditionally explained as Two Celestial Women a white one like Empty Niche and a red one in the sphere of Bliss.

    And then so yes, experiencing the crown as an aperture in the sexualized manner as you have described is the outcome of magnetizing the body. It would be the Body Mandala of Jnana Dakini. Without any further background, I would take you as what we call a self-arisen yogin. This crown condition plus the self-arisen White Heruka would basically be defined as the extent of the Yoga Path that we as outsiders usually take a long time to learn about and develop.

    I do not personally have that but what I do know is what is called Nirodha or Cessation and the Eight Dissolutions of Death, such as Earth slipping into Water and so on. Nirakara meditation; or Parasunya. The Parasunya is, physiologically, in Purna Giri Pitha over Higher Yoni Triangle beyond the head. It is Amanasa or a state of no formative mentation, devoid of phenomena all together. An Utter Stoppage of the Winds.

    And then the Tibetan usually refers to Transference into Clear Light, which is a possible interpretation of, but not the full sense of, the Indian original, Prabhasvara. It is a form of light, but the adjective rendered ought to have meanings of purity and royalty. I am not sure how to make that in one word if it comes out as Pure Royal Light. If we look at what are called the Bodhisattva Bhumis or Grounds, at first it is Golden Ground, and then takes on more and more fiery and solar characteristics, as if building an aura made from the stuff.

    The main thing that makes Nirakara a Buddhist practice is the following: other Yogas may help you find the way in. Buddhism dictates that afterwards you must Emerge in Reverse Order. That is when the deities will dawn to you.

    I will continue to testify that works exactly how it says it does.

    But since I lack the Dakini perception or the Heruka body or anything like that, I am still in need of something from within the Yoga Path. My experience was more from a general Laya Yoga practice, whereas the Buddha Families of Wisdom and Protection are what I would have to cultivate. The normal trend of consciousness is to be dazzled by the deities in one way or another; Emergence means to harness this.

    Vajrayogini's Yoga teaching says that the human subtle body is a Net of Dakinis. The chief of them is Jnana Dakini. And so she is governing this weird activity that starts to go out the top of the head. That is the Vajra Danda or Staff and it can sometimes be seen in a colored mist. And so if one is able to bond with Jnana Dakini, then, all the tantra is like a progression of Heruka and Jnana Dakini.

    Without the close bond, or the transmitted initiation, etc., the definition of a "wild-caught" Jnana Dakini is called Guhya Jnana Dakini, and this is the one that is actually used on Tibetan national symbols.

    So in Yoga, Guhya Jnana Dakini holds an important position. She is similar to, but not identical, to this chant In Praise of Five Elemental Dakinis which mainly is just calling them by the Family Name:








    Very Venerable Zasep Tulku does Prajnaparamita Sutra behind the mantra:

    Om Buddha Dakini Hum Hum Phat Svaha

    Om Vajra Dakini Hum Hum Phat Svaha

    Om Ratna Dakini Hum Hum Phat Svaha

    Om Padma Dakini Hum Hum Phat Svaha

    Om Karma Dakini Hum Hum Phat Svaha



    Guhya Jnana Dakini is something similar to this retinue; her role is something like an "organizer" of dakinis, an arranger of hosts. She is unique and there is not another one that works the same way that I know of.

    And so a personal practice pantheon has a few "offices", or roles, so I can take a Tara such as Janguli for a Yidam and then Guhya Jnana as a Dakini. One generally accumulates Guru, Yidam (or Ista Devata), Wrathful, Dakini, and Protector. And then the instructions are going to say certain days are for Wrathful practice, and the end of the lunar cycle is for Protection, and things like that. Or it is really almost all following the lunar cycle.

    Parasunya is the correct Sanskrit name for the philosophy of Jonang Taranatha as well as the Hindu Yoga name for the most subtle void beyond the head.

    Tara Natha was a hound for Tara, but, he did not actually get them all as found in Indian sources. These Indian ones are extremely beneficial for Yoga. Some of them simply are Hindu; Janguli is Manasa. But then one of the unique veins of Buddhist meditation is classes of Taras said to emanate from the crown center of Buddha, Usnisa class deities, who provide, so to speak, the magic word for doing a Buddhist Completion Stage.

    The Usnisa hair top-knot represents the growing psychic structure, which may also be depicted as flame or Ketu "comet tail". And so one of the main original names of Jewel Family Buddha is Ratna Ketu, i. e. to portray this image, and then we see the Yoga Tantra Path consists in something like starting Jewel Family in the core of our body as a mantric force field on the earth plane, and, it is usually an eventual result of this process that produces the flame, ketu, staff, etc., at which point the crown is Protected by Wrathful Jewel Deity.

    So yes both the crown-as-aperture and White Heruka are the signs of proficiency at the entire Generation Stage.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I can relate to the fixing things, although generally my motivation is somewhat environmental, but it usually takes the form of, "I can't believe they want me to throw out all this metal and plastic and electronics and buy a new one. what a waste," and then i decide to take it apart.

    Kalachakra -- I did some delving into that in the form of reading and mostly reading the history of it, and of another companion tantra called Vimalaprabha, but it was in the context of a fixation with ancient Khotan, one of the capitals of the Buddhist world until it was laid waste and the people slaughtered in 1003 C.E. The connection is that some of the texts are devoted to describing a great collapse of the Buddhist world, and it is believed to have been based on the destruction of Khotan, of Mahabihar at Balkh, of the great pillar of Kanishka, and the defeat of Srivijaya by the Chola. The myth version is that Vimalaprabha was a guardian bodhisattva of Khotan, who had once incarnated as the princess, and vowed that she would protect Khotan unless the people deviated from the Buddhist path.

    Thank you for not slipping away quite yet.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Vimala Prabha or Stainless Light is the main Kalachakra commentary. And that is also largely correct that at the apex of the university system that Khotan was a very important center.

    The strength of the Kalachakra system is that it explains the subtle winds in one place. The trouble is that it is a massive, major daily commitment that does not have a Yoga equivalent, and its unique pantheon of over 700 deities does not really match or flow from the Sarvadurgati-type terminology which works with Tara and Heruka Yoga. The Heruka system appears perhaps a bit "clumsy" because its teachings are mostly in commentaries and other places, so it is more like a system spread across a curriculum than in a single text. Therefor I am mostly talking about Heruka Yoga as related to India, which has mostly the same meaning, but it not quite the same system and terminology as either Kalachakra or the First Transmission that interprets Heruka as Blood Drinker. It is closer to Manjushri and Tara and the spectrum of learning the doctrines and gaining some realization in order to stabilize and strengthen that Heruka, which, would also work for Kalachakra, but is more directly related to Samvarodaya.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I am aware of the five wisdom Dakinis, when the Dakinis first started identifying in my shakings, I spent quite a bit of time working on which one had what name and which direction, color, consort, etc. In the end, some of that was worth it and some wasn't. It was kind of in that context that I was trying to find a name for The White One, I ended up just going with that, although she does embody characteristics at different times of various Dakinis. In the context of that search I came upon the first Kalu Rinpoche's description of her and the Phowa, he also refers to her as The White One.

    For context, I have three mandalas which appear from time to time. One is at my dantian, it is an infinite Apollonian Gasket of taiji symbols that "breathe" back and forth between them and Dakinis dancing (the Dakinis move seamlessly with the symbol), and the central figure is The White One. The second is at my heart, it is composed of lotus buds that infinitely subdivide as onions that become lotus buds -- they are all either red or white. It's complex and I see it seldom because it extends temporally not just spatially, and I have to be in good physical shape to do the "push hands" moves for time scales embedded in each other. The third is a jeweled net, at my throat, it is infinite spatially, it is somehow related to Mayajala, Indra's net of illusion. When some of the things that happen during shaking happen, it is instrumental in seeing things like infinite interpenetration. The center of this one displays almost always when my throat is activated, I only see the whole thing occasionally.


    Heruka Chakrasamvara is in Lama Yeshe's book, he has one preparation for doing Tummo that requires visualizing him beforehand (and Vajrasattva), so I did do those visualizations when I was doing my experimenting and when I was working on Tummo. I did Heruka with 12 arms, though, in coupling with Vajrayogini.

    Thank you very much for the mantra video, it is very uplifting.

    Isn't Niguma also referred to as the Secret Wisdom Dakini (Guhya Jnana Dakini)? I learned a stretching exercise that is supposed to have come from her.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I'm not understanding why it is important that Heruka means blood drinker? Dakini has other meanings, one of which is female demon.

    But thank you for the information about the Kalachakra size and its relation to Yoga.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    There’s much in Tibetan Buddhism and any “special teachings” that needs to be approached with cautions. I’m saying that as “old student” of some 26 years and there is nothing more precious than snippet of personal experiences.

    Consider that, for any “yidam” ( Sanskrit: Ishtadevata = preferred deity) practice you ought to receive private initiation from Vajra master.
    In days of old, students including monastics, even great scholars like Naropa, had to wait years before they received initiation to Mandala and Deity practice,
    they had to offer themselves and all they had to their master.

    The original masters were Mahasiddhas who had spontaneous visions of mandalas of deities and received direct guidance from them.
    Some of us are that way even if we are not quite Mahasiddhas( accomplished beings) quite yet. I’ve had many different visions of deities and mandalas that guided me on the way, without need for further explanation and sometimes I found the names and details of those only years later.

    But in gist, most of the original teachings and mandalas come from great and direct visions. They were not put together by scholars of either religion as people often think about it with analytical minds.

    In the authentic transmission lineages and it’s still mostly true in Hindu tradition, any “guru diksha” ( master - student initiation) depended on having authentic relationship between the two that was not to be disclosed or broken, for this and following lifetimes.

    What has happened to many higher yoga( aka tantric teachings) over centuries would be called corruption these days. Some were passed onto wealthy disciples who could pay for them, others were given “en mass” as public teachings.

    From reality view point it’s a total deception to the causality, wisdom and method.

    Guru and deity( particular Buddha or Bodhisattva) choose you before you choose them. There has to be natural link and likeness of character between the two.
    It’s the only way how to proceed happily with practise.

    People who take over certain teachings and methods as if they owned them remind me of “raping the force”.

    That itself is strict injunction against the Tantra. It was done repeatedly by people in past trying to accomplish certain worldly goals or rising their status.
    It’s always wrong.

    It’s how even the portraits of deities especially wrathful ones were always kept secret before this kind of Buddhism got out of Tibet

    but even before it happened, its situation in Tibet has already been corrupted by many lamas “doing what they wished”, mostly with the aim of attracting money and disciples.

    Certain practices such as those of wrathful deities will never even disclose their real pure nature unless the student is 100% committed, of pure mind and suitable character.
    The more complicated the practice, the commitment has to be complete. Now there are people with complete commitments also who practice what’s not quite suitable for them.
    There’s no book recipe of what is suitable or not, the responsibility always rests with the guru. If there’s a mistake or a mishap, teacher who are far more advanced can always fix it. The student can not.


    As I’ve said earlier there’s much within any particular -ism including famous Buddhists sects that needs to be approached with cautions.

    The most common and obvious thing for me was basic gender segregation in the Buddhist order. Buddhist nuns were always placed far behind monks in the Vinaya practice and everything else.
    This dates to times of Buddha Shakyamuni of course but it’s not dissimilar to status of nuns in Christian and Orthodox Christian orders and prevalence of patriarchal hierarchies in dominant religious systems.

    Even if one accepts the difference philosophically and even if most Buddhist monks are very kind in general, in practice most nuns in Tibet were poorly educated
    and sometimes, to put it bluntly lived miserable lives.
    It does not mean there were no great yoginis and other female practitioners but in common society, discrimination towards nuns was also common.

    Much has been fixed in just about last 20 years or so- education system has improved and nuns can study to receive Geshe(ma) degree.
    But they’re still in minority.

    When I first came to Dharamsala, 26 years ago, the nuns quarters on the hill close to Namgyal monastery were just shacks, with windows plastered by plastic bags and living poorly. They tried to study, even to learn to read n write as many were illiterate, could not afford medicines when needed and many were so absolutely shy they never talked.

    Born to modern and gender equal society, there are things our grand grand mothers struggled for, I could not personally agree to “retard” to such levels
    even though there were many foreigners here who went for the experiment.
    The problem is often, more humble you are the more humbled you will be.

    Both monks and nuns would push each other to hard practice such as prostrations until they had sores on their foreheads, hands and feet. It was considered the proper way to do it.

    It’s again, something my subtle Being can not inherently agree on: there is much human suffering that we are trying to heal and alleviate.
    There is no need to create new one.

    There are countless other examples of what shouldn’t be done in the name of yogic or Buddhist practice.

    But I’ve seen the pattern among other non-Tibetan sects too , including Zen practitioners and others, forceful disciplines imposed on students without appropriate discrimination wisdom and more on the humble ones that result in years of abuse,
    in some cases.

    Buddha himself never ever carried himself and his teachings in such manner.

    Buddha was a prince and ascetic and generally, very sublime being who gave advice to those approaching him, in calm and kind manner.

    If his self proclaimed students trying to achieve Buddhahood fast devoted themselves to various forms of torture it can’t be quite his fault or teachings.

    There had been also many misguiding translations of Tripitaka by Western scholars since about 18th century : if I say misguiding it’s because those people rarely understood any of the ancient languages (Sanskrit, Pali, Chinese, Japanese) really well on Dharma grounds either/or they did not follow their master.
    As a result many of those translations are biased towards the opinion of the author.

    Buddha himself did not start either “Mahayana”, “Hinayana” or “Vajrayana” perspectives, all those categories came to existence by endless divisions and misinterpretations by unenlightened people centuries later who always criticized each other.
    Buddha would give pointed advice to individual students and sometimes gave teachings to assemblies of monks and lay people on philosophical topics,
    without any discrimination.


    Anyone truly interested in the original Buddhism of many colours should visit Bodhgaya at least once in their life time- it’s unforgettably rewarding experience especially for those who can stop and meditate there for a while.

    I’ll share again this beautiful documentary from Werner Herzog with you
    about creation of the Kalachakra Mandala( Wheel of Time), Bodhgaya and sacred Mt Kailash, the diamond shaped mountain in Tibet and holiest of Holies to almost 4 religions.

    It was filmed in the same year -2002- I spent 3 month in Bodhgaya and when the ET Encounter happened.

    It contains some good commentary on the Kalachakra Mandala as well

    Source link: https://documentaryheaven.com/wheel-of-time/





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    Last edited by Agape; 3rd July 2020 at 06:50.

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