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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Well, that is interesting that for some reason it has proceeded from the navel like in Buddhism rather than the root as in most other Yoga.

    I do not think I have experienced a single thing like it.
    I don't think it's the same as something from the root. This (what I had described) was because I had gone within what was there trying to find the place where these things joined. The full size of the droplet were clouds on the side of a mountain, and they among other things became flocks of murmurating birds (all of which were reflected in my breathing patterns). I could not get the fire from below to join with these, in order to get things to connect up and allow bliss to rise through my body. I went inward until I found these pairs.

    Quote And so this intricate tour of the interior dynamos continues to sound like something that most people are not going to stand a chance to perceive. But when you find yourself finding it, then yes, it still sounds pretty close to what we would do intentionally by Yoga practice.
    It does, which is why it is relatable at all. I am supposed to write these down in notes, which I do. If everything was totally idiosyncratic, I would not be able to look things up, talk to people, and try to understand what was happening.

    Quote Then you may understand why some people are utterly terrified of me.

    And that is why I think there is huge importance in using Sarvadurgati Parishodana as a "stamp" for practice, because it is also pointing to Vajrapani and the overcoming of Kama Loka, and we are in a situation something like Death versus the Citta Chakra.

    By that Purgatory, eventually there is a purified Kama Dhatu Ishvari or the dark Lakshmi--Ekajati also related to Nidra or Sleep Yoga. This is like Varnani or an entire branch nerve.

    You could perhaps say if you can dissolve and not pick anything back up from the Kama Loka, you are an Arhat.
    I'm not sure I understand. I do not "back out" of a dissolve, coming back is kind of a "relaxing" out.

    Quote Non-conceptuality is deployed as a synonym for emptiness and it is used to describe the fourth ecstasy, innate ecstasy occurring when the enlightenment spirit dissolves in the navel chakra and “is born in the Great Bliss Wheel [crown chakra].” When one engages in sexual yogic practices, it is done not in a state of ordinary sexual conceptual fantasy and the like, but in a “non-conceptual state,” the yogi having consumed all of the conceptual energy-winds.
    I spent upwards of an hour trying to find other definitions of nirvikalpa to try to understand what is meant by "non-conceptual" here. I assume the translator chose the word carefully, conceptual means having to do with concepts (which are a cognitive phenomenon) but it also has to do with conceiving, which is an ultimate outcome of ordinary sexual acts, and also would mean the blazing of a yab-yum sexual act?

    So I am confused as to what this means. Bliss, as I have been using it, is sexual energy, but it transformed and isn't that during shaking, it feels like that but it is those things that you keep saying nobody else would perceive. The whole thing runs on bliss, if bliss isn't there, it's a useless waste of time. But nothing about it is an ordinary sexual act.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    We found a tough nut to crack that in the end, stresses the gears of the Venerable Tson kha pa, and so it is a bit bewildering, but is fundamental.


    With some contemplation, it seems to me that Vajra Rosary is simply what I call Guru Yoga.

    From doing this format, it is a great deal like what was "me" has been kicked out and replaced by Vajrasattva as described. Even without any special appearances, it is true on a psychological basis. It is more like an inner meaning than some other person taking me over. Or could be called inner state or condition.

    For most other purposes, Guru is behind the scenes of what other deities display.


    I was impressed to see the meaning of Moods, which readily matches Picuva Marici. There perhaps are not nine if the center or peace is just withdrawn.

    Vajra Rosary boils down to Three-natures-or-naturelessnesses, the conundrum of Yogacara, which is like wrapping up the Three Jewels into Three Voids which are also potentially Gnostic Lights.

    It was said they are crossed by No Ego, Suchness, and Ultimate Meaning. And so part of the response is that the first is Nairatma. Now we are in a position to say the Second Void is the target of Vajra Rosary by describing Suchness as Nirvikalpa.

    In Sadhanamala, Nirvikalpa is mentioned by Halahala and extensively treated by the massive Vajra Tara 110.

    With Paramartha, it just is Ultimate Meaning, or actually viewing the Absolute Object or Prabhasvara. Everything else is just to get you focused on it. So there is not another tantra or book or explanation for this.

    Vajra Tara is related to Nairatma, and personally has the sadhana which arguably melts through the Second Void.

    She does a process related to or having the intent of Paramartha, and then says:

    idam ucyate lokottaraṃ śūnyatājńānaṃ niṣprapańcaṃ
    nirvikalpam / tatas tanmantreṇādhitiṣṭhet oṃ śūnyatājńānavajrasvabhāvātmako
    'ham / saiva bhagavatī prajńāpāramitā
    saiva paramā rakṣā /

    It is Void Gnosis and Nirvikalpa. And so I am just a disciple trying to see how she works, but in a sadhana I will use the basic White Vajra Tara who does this mantra, which again is the intense process of stamping out the "self" of the skandhas and replacing it with voidness. If I do this now, it remains useful later.

    She purifies Laukika Jnana, casts a mandala, and describes how she is going to cast Inverted Stupa:

    tanmadhye ākāśamahābhūtasvabhāvaṃ dharmodayākhyaṃ
    mahāvajradharasvabhāvaṃ śaracchaśadharadhavalamadhaḥ sūkṣmaṃ
    upari viśālaṃ triloṇaṃ antargaganasvarūpaṃ tanmadhye viśvadala-
    kamalakarṇikāvasthitavipulaviśvavajraṃ tadvedikāyāṃ catvāri
    mahābhūtāni caturmaṇḍalākārāṇi caturdevīsvabhāvāni
    uparyupari paśyet /

    In the Akasa and Mahabuts she has a Dharmodaya of the nature of Maha Vajradhara, some type of Intermediate Sky or Antargagana, and the body of the Four Vedas are Four Mahabhuts of the nature of Four Devis.

    She casts Inverted Stupa, which purifies Lokottara Jnana and emanates something of Vairocana in nature, which endures a few fourfold cycles until:

    sūryaṃ dvayor malā mahāsukhaṃ paramānandam /
    ādarśajńānavāṃścandraḥ sa tāvān saptasaptikaḥ /


    A sun-like rosary of great bliss and Paramananda, having to do with Mirror Wisdom and a Sevenfold division. When he occupies the Earth Element, Vairocana is said to hold Mirror Wisdom.

    Which eventually results in the appearance of Vajra Tara's major golden form, in Red Light which is Jnanagni, and is:

    caturbuddhamahāmukuṭīṃ vajrasūryābhiṣekajām /
    navayauvanalāvaṇyāṃ calatkanakakuṇḍalām //
    viśvapadmasamāsīnāṃ raktaprabhāvibhūṣitām /

    She populates the mandala and does pages of things with deities and designates them for Heruka.

    Vajra Tara has the only Vajra Surya that shows up in Sadhanamala, and apparently the only place where Nirvikalpa is joined to it.

    That appears to be another subject of Vajra Rosary, it has specific meanings for Vajra Sun, which if anything must be intensified here, since Vajra Tara is in Ratna or Vajrasurya Family.

    It sounds a bit like the meaning of Kaya Vajra or that Jewel Family merges into Tathagata Family. Vairocana has been produced here and faces a devi who is or who gives Abhiseka or Initiation of Vajra Surya.

    That is why she comes across as such a dreadnought, probably the most powerful thing it looks like the Sadhanamala Taras are crafting.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote From doing this format, it is a great deal like what was "me" has been kicked out and replaced by Vajrasattva as described. Even without any special appearances, it is true on a psychological basis. It is more like an inner meaning than some other person taking me over. Or could be called inner state or condition.
    This sounds amazing.

    Quote Vajra Rosary boils down to Three-natures-or-naturelessnesses, the conundrum of Yogacara, which is like wrapping up the Three Jewels into Three Voids which are also potentially Gnostic Lights.

    It was said they are crossed by No Ego, Suchness, and Ultimate Meaning. And so part of the response is that the first is Nairatma. Now we are in a position to say the Second Void is the target of Vajra Rosary by describing Suchness as Nirvikalpa.
    I did finish checking about Nirvikalpa, vikalpa means "conceptual" as opposed to "actual". Three jewels into three Voids makes sense, Gnostic Lights is something I'm not acquainted with.

    Quote śūnyatājńānavajrasvabhāvātmako
    Emptiness knowledge vajra are the innate nature of atma? This seems to be being put in juxtaposition with nirvikalpa?

    Quote That appears to be another subject of Vajra Rosary, it has specific meanings for Vajra Sun, which if anything must be intensified here, since Vajra Tara is in Ratna or Vajrasurya Family.

    It sounds a bit like the meaning of Kaya Vajra or that Jewel Family merges into Tathagata Family. Vairocana has been produced here and faces a devi who is or who gives Abhiseka or Initiation of Vajra Surya.
    This will seem a little off-topic but the sun with moon with nadi-flame, I had found something that looked like it on the faces of statues being prepared for Durgapuja. In those, the correspondence was that the sun was corresponded to the oversized bindi's on some statues, the moon is there clearly, and the nadi-flame is only there with abstraction because most of the time it is an eye. I had this flame coalesce with such an eye last night, and the spitting electric flaming version of it spat out such eyes that landed on me in multiple places. So I have a flame that is sometimes an eye to try to figure out.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I am not sure about the "abdominal hairs" channel.

    I have almost no awareness of anything in the subtle body other than what is described as Suksma Yoga. I learned it mostly instinctively, on a scale of near-approaches and finding a non-duality or transcendence. It started with Bees in the Springtime, and, by around this time of year, it was complete or by then "it" had taught me what would correspond to Eight Joys of Buddhist Candali Yoga. Except this physiological fact is not really the property of Buddhism, it is Nirvikalpa.

    Through time and practical experience, this was operable at will in terms of what you might call ascending power levels of bliss.

    Eventually I found I could loosen the white seed and hit a Kurukulla-like saturation in the space of one breath.

    This can be halted or banished easily. Or, it can go to "the vessel" or Bharati, or back to your first bindu in the lightning-droplet pair example. That change of state is like the subtle of the subtle. And it is the subsequent ascension of this which is capable of entering the Para Sunya, which is like a common name for Shentong Buddhism as well as Shiva tantra for the same thing.

    If you do that, you will probably feel a blast of death one way or another, which is what I mean by Kama Loka, and sometimes, other people can sense that you are...incredibly death-like...which can be disturbing.

    But through that way is the state being discussed.

    And so Nirvikalpa could simply be described as "non-dual", but, since it has a rather esoterified appearance in philosophy, it means the one coming from a state utilizing energy-wind and bliss as described in Vajra Rosary.


    Nirvikalpa is viewed as happening fully only in the final three bodhisattva degrees, which perhaps makes it understandable to ignore or deny it in some of the preliminary teachings, but since we are able to assess the whole Path, then yes, it should be distinctly featured. Nirvikalpa or Nirakara seems to be what makes a distinct, obscure Yogacara school that equates to Adwaita. This ego-less, neti neti "nothingness", empty of everything other than itself, is ultimate reality according to these doctrines.

    In terms of a ninth dhyana, this is cessation (Nirodha-Samapatti), which may appear unconscious or cataleptic.

    NMAA develops the gnoses in an unusual order: Mirror, Equality, Discriminating, Dharmadhatu, Praxis (Amoghasiddhi). This last is different because it emerges from Nirvikalpa Jnana or radiant non-dual, non-discursive state achieved from the previous gnoses. In other words, this is Vilasavajra's commentary on Namasangiti, Nama Mantra Artha Avalokini, which places Amoghasiddhi beyond Dharmadhatu Wisdom. Textually we also equated this Praxis to "Mahamudra Wisdom".


    So Nirvikalpa is really a general yoga term:

    One well-known Mahatma was Ramalinga, who was so luminous he could not be photographed. HPB believed he was a Mahatma with an accurate prophecy: "His prophecy about the Universal brotherhood in India to be established by the wise from Russia and America and the far North India is quite correct. In 1873, 1 got a command to go from Russia to Paris; in the June of the same year to the United States. I went to New York. It was during this time that the Mahatma was telling what would happen in the future."

    She spoke with someone who witnessed his last day: "This body
    will not be available for burial or for burning. I am in Stiddka Nirvikalpa
    Samadhi (Supreme state of Bliss-Consciousness). For a while I will wander
    as a Siddha. I will work not only in India, but in the western countries too.
    I will return at last with a divine body! Now close and lock all the doors and
    windows; completely close and seal them. But if the curious open this,
    there shall be only emptiness!”

    In any case, it is well-known that such yogis may vacate their bodies indefinitely. In Yoga, Nirvikalpa can last twenty-one days, and if so, then it could go on for months or indefinitely.

    Buddha trained in the Dhyanas, and Nirvikalpa is Dhyanas five to eight. Even in a Hindu description, we find:

    "Holding on to the supreme state is Samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is Samprajnata [or Savikalpa]. When these disturbances are absent, it is Nirvikalpa. Remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is Sahaja.

    It [Nirvikalpa] is a state where you are no longer the mind or the identity. You are no longer what you have been perceiving your whole life. That is why it can be shocking to some individuals. For how long can this state lasts depends on the experience of the individual. As each individual is an expression of the whole and the whole is expressing itself through him or her or it. It can last for minutes or hours or days or months where the individual lose consciousness as he knows it and remains subtly in the subconscious or the unconscious state. The desire to come back or not from that state is linked to the life experience of that individual. If he is here to maybe manifest something into the world. Or if he just wanted to reach that state and leave the conscious world.

    However it is not the ultimate state of realization and it is not how it appears to be ‘of great significance’. It is like any other spiritual experience. It can be an awakening experience to some individuals who weren’t aware of that state.

    While losing contact of the world in this dreamlike state of benediction and bliss. When coming back from this state the world seems differently. But as you come to meditate more in this world. Your life is no longer yours. You are now just an expression of divine...The state of self love, realization, enlightenment, oneness, divinity, whichever you call it it doesn’t matter. What matters is that you are in such a state there is no tomorrow nor yesterday nor today. There is only infinity within you. No fear no doubt no hesitation. Your whole expression as a creation is a spontaneous manifestation.

    This [Sahaja] Samadhi could probably be placed between Nirvikalpa and Dharmamegha Samadhis. It is where the inner silence is maintained along with normal daily activities. It is being able to maintain the experience of Nirvakalpa Samadhi at all times. Here you radiate Divine Illumination, the Divine is perfectly manifesting through you at every second. You are filled with Divine Grace. It can, perhaps, be likened to the Unity Consciousness of the Shankara Tradition."


    Dharmamegha is Jivanmukta.


    In Shiva tantra, the first two Bhairavas given are relevant to the emergence of Parvati as Kurukulla. If Prajna could be loosely described as the most refined wisdom and intelligence, it is not too far off from Bhairava as the Knower of it. Vijnanabhairava or philosophy of Abhinavagupta says that worship is not the offering of gross items, flowers, incense, etc., but that it is Nirvikalpa Mahavyomni, interpreted as:

    setting one's heart on Vijnana, the highest ether of consciousness above thought constructs; dissolution of self into the supreme consciousness known as Bhairava.

    Those are just a few notes I had about it, but, more precisely, we find Nirvikalpa discussed with the Three Natures as explained by Vasubandhu and Sthiramati. And so it has no duality, there is no subject-object, which is expressed in "Graha" terms, similar to Planet or "Seizer" except in this case, the terminology means Grasper and Grasped. It is this exact phrase which is in the Vajra Tara sadhana describing the same thing. So that sadhana attaches the complete Yogacara philosophy to practice matching the tantric definition.

    It would be called Suspended Animation if done for any noticeable length of time.

    If you do a sadhana normally, you would come back out of it in a while.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    Emptiness knowledge vajra are the innate nature of atma? This seems to be being put in juxtaposition with nirvikalpa?
    It is sticky since Buddhists are trained to vehemently deny "atma"--except it appears in the majority of sadhanas.

    It is usually something like "I/myself", so "my" real nature is emptiness knowledge, not a predictable human ego.

    That is like a "level two" mantra, after the Purity mantra which is like an "eraser" to perceive voidness, this one is more like identity with voidness. So I think it is like a "training prelude" to Nirvikalpa, and continues to be used as the meaning hits home. In the Vajra Tara sadhana, the mantra is related to "adhistithe" which is a consecration for/of/about Nirvikalpa.

    By "Gnostic Lights", I just mean the Three Luminances, meaning they are not just colors, but gnostic perception of reality. More commonly, they are called Light, Spread of Light, and Culmination of Light. The Vasubandhu--Sthiramati texts say this is real and we use it, compared to "vikalpa" with respect to Samvritti or mundane consciousness is a mental construct which is not "actual", not based in void gnosis and use of the winds. And so a great deal of the Path is killing Imaginary mentation that the human uses all the time, since theirs is based in Ego. The three luminances are like snuffing Imagination and breaking Dependent Arising to simply reveal/perceive/know the third or Paramartha.

    That is why Vajrasattva's consort is Vajra Gharvi (Divine Ego) or Vajrasattvatmika (herself composed of Vajrasattva).

    Vajrasattva's first tantric degree is as non-dual Prajna--Upaya in conjunction with Four Activities. If you are learning some Upaya based as close as you can in Prajna, it is this. That is like adjoining two of the Paramitas, which are defined as built of the previous. Again the intent here may be called Svabhavika Kaya, considered a merging of the Tri-kaya into a single unit. Either way, you get a small taste of something, which expands to "everything", and returns back to a point-like thread of the Central Channel.

    The Eye should mean "this is open, working", and then becomes a suitable symbol for a chakra. Buddhism insists it is governed by the Heart.

    Used appropriately, Vajrasattva and Vajra Tara definitely remove human ego and install Void Gnosis just as the mantras indicate. I had used Green Tara and didn't quite get White Tara, so, when I researched her and determined the simplest, oldest kinds were Mrtyuvacana and Vajra Tara, I asked her if this was the right meaning and if it was ok to do it this way, and, so far, the sense is she is flattered that someone would open a "time capsule" like this. I have not thought of it as whether she is in Buddha Family in a Quintessence, because these are about Sunyata Jnana and Explaining Death. That is why Vajra Tara is very pivotal, is like an occult pedestal, a transformative region which grows and always remains to unfold the rest, and shows most of it herself in her personal name in Gold Vajra Tara 110. When we see it includes a near-copy of Sthiramati's Yogacara, and also take him as a main transmission of Ratna Gotra Vibhaga or Seven Vajra Mysteries, the full intricacy of the teachings are here, and still based in Refuge of One, so she is completely compatible. Offhandedly, I have not seen another single source that has this degree of fusion.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Some of this posting is difficult, in that it seems in conflict with itself. Loss of self does not necessarily mean suspension of life maintaining functions, but it does somehow mean loss of this world view.
    Quote I have almost no awareness of anything in the subtle body other than what is described as Suksma Yoga. I learned it mostly instinctively, on a scale of near-approaches and finding a non-duality or transcendence. It started with Bees in the Springtime, and, by around this time of year, it was complete or by then "it" had taught me what would correspond to Eight Joys of Buddhist Candali Yoga. Except this physiological fact is not really the property of Buddhism, it is Nirvikalpa.

    Through time and practical experience, this was operable at will in terms of what you might call ascending power levels of bliss.

    Eventually I found I could loosen the white seed and hit a Kurukulla-like saturation in the space of one breath.
    To me, being able to end the self but not being able to end being in this body is why this is so wrapped up in death and death-like states. The body can continue to function easily without self if self is not essential to the body when it does.

    Quote Nirvikalpa is viewed as happening fully only in the final three bodhisattva degrees, which perhaps makes it understandable to ignore or deny it in some of the preliminary teachings, but since we are able to assess the whole Path, then yes, it should be distinctly featured. Nirvikalpa or Nirakara seems to be what makes a distinct, obscure Yogacara school that equates to Adwaita. This ego-less, neti neti "nothingness", empty of everything other than itself, is ultimate reality according to these doctrines.

    In terms of a ninth dhyana, this is cessation (Nirodha-Samapatti), which may appear unconscious or cataleptic.
    Which explains why when I do the wrong thing, my breath dies away. Or when I do the right thing, but not necessarily that I am doing it the right way. I read through both the pancajnana entries in several -pedias and through your link to the Wisdom Library that down the page discussed Nirvikalpa.

    I have told you before that I have some vocational and some avocational study in my background of neural processes. Much which happens between perception and cognition is due to development, or inheritance, of pre-conceived things. If one begins eliminating these links, in the very same way I had told you about changing the patterns of muscular activation in large numbers of small muscles during shaking, then the reality that is perceived, or that is possible, changes. If one completely reduces to nothing those preconceptions, and holds there, then reality is capable of infinite possibilities and also of the perception of the infiniteness of those possibilities. That much can be read out of the cellular tissues themselves and how they work. And delving below those, as well as delving into the infinite number of possibilities for those, easily produces all of this philosophy about the non-reality of a dual world view and much of the rest, in addition to producing we don't know what else.

    One way to do that would be to shut everything off and then return it to what would be a new stasis. But that would certainly not be the only way.

    Quote It would be called Suspended Animation if done for any noticeable length of time.
    I am familiar with this state (not for weeks long periods or anything). It does not seem like the only way to do these five Gnoses, and it is something that can cause great difficulties for something that can be done elsewise.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote By "Gnostic Lights", I just mean the Three Luminances, meaning they are not just colors, but gnostic perception of reality. More commonly, they are called Light, Spread of Light, and Culmination of Light. The Vasubandhu--Sthiramati texts say this is real and we use it, compared to "vikalpa" with respect to Samvritti or mundane consciousness is a mental construct which is not "actual", not based in void gnosis and use of the winds. And so a great deal of the Path is killing Imaginary mentation that the human uses all the time, since theirs is based in Ego. The three luminances are like snuffing Imagination and breaking Dependent Arising to simply reveal/perceive/know the third or Paramartha.
    In the neural theory of vision, there is a tendency by some (usually computational) neuroscientists to model things as a feed forward network going from the eyes into and through the visual cortex then on to higher brain function. This is actually incorrect, and when you tell them that, they say it is a simplifying assumption, and usually say it doesn't matter.

    But it does. The feedback circuit does stuff up to and including that it paints your visual imagined things on your visual cortex in the same places they would be if you saw them with your eyeballs, and you re-perceive them from there. In addition, vision at various stages is sent out to multiple places, and can directly communicate with your motor system without getting to your higher cortices, a phenomenon known as "blindsight". Someone with such a situation can, for instance, not be able to see anything but tell the doctor that, "Oh, you got a haircut." The other part can be trained such that blind people can learn to draw from their imaginations.

    The purpose of it is to make sense of -- read interpret and create a world view of -- the surrounding reality. But it also limits what can be seen, and limits what can be imagined.

    Shutting off those links would make you perceive unfiltered - but also unrecognized - the world around you. Rewiring those links would allow you to organize the world in another reality.

    If you know this kind of science, and you read what Vasubandhu and Sthiramati say -- albeit in the interpretation in the link you gave -- then it is not difficult to see that the goals of these practices are similar to the goals of the rest of Yoga -- to expand control over the automatic within oneself and to bend the results to appreciate (I won't use perceive) reality.

    When I do my shaking, I change those controls, just like others may do using Yoga or using other practices like Neidan (which after all, given the definition of Yoga I just used, would just be Yoga by a different name). But it's more like wrenching the piano away from Mozart and convincing oneself that it can be used to play Jazz. In the end, this also proves that the piano is not a Mozart reality device.

    Quote The Eye should mean "this is open, working", and then becomes a suitable symbol for a chakra. Buddhism insists it is governed by the Heart.
    This is good. The symbol has not recurred (but it's only been one day). Before it opens or becomes a flame, it is a flower and a vulva, and the eye at the end retains the characteristics of all of the precursors. It is a rich symbol, I am glad it means something is coming to life and opening.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Some of this posting is difficult, in that it seems in conflict with itself. Loss of self does not necessarily mean suspension of life maintaining functions, but it does somehow mean loss of this world view.

    This probably is correct on both counts, we are dealing with a body-less Nirvana which one does not want to leave, and a command that we release this state and move out to help others. And so it is out-of-body but it is also in-body to the extent that it can be. Most of us cannot stay in Nirvikalpa if a leaf blows in the wind.

    It could perhaps be said that the more the Transcendent State is trained, the more the body can be operated without selfhood of it.

    Nirvikalpa refers to the Absolute:


    nirvikalpa (निर्विकल्प).—a (S) Of unchanging purpose; being "without variableness or shadow of turning"--the Deity. 2 Not admitting of difference or otherness (betwixt one's own spirit and the divine essence).

    Knowledge, not depending upon or derived from the senses.

    And when Absolute in the sense of Nirguna Brahman is ported into Buddhism, it is adorned with the marks of Manifest Complete Buddha, which exists in an ordinary body.

    But there is also a sense we are getting at the state equal to Deep Sleep.

    Between ordinary consciousness, and the non-ness of Deep Sleep, it is possible to function fully consciously, in a non-physical body. This is possible to the extent that Buddha reached Enlightenment exactly this way, non-physically, in a Manomaya Kaya or Mayavi Rupa or Illusory Body in the Akanistha or Pure Lands.

    Relative to the normal person, Akanistha is beyond their own thoughtforms or kamarupas, clouds of obscurity.

    While he was in the Akanistha, he still, mentally, dissolved the voids.

    If I am not Buddha, then I helplessly revolve on a chain of death and reincarnation, and so part of what we are doing here is Explaining Death which, so to speak, builds a type of mental body that is not subject to the ordinary affairs of death, Vajra Kaya.

    The body is not what will be challenged after death by Kama Loka with the potential to enter the Pure Lands.

    The body is just a temporary dwelling for something that did not come from this world.

    That which is not of this world is definitely trying to "take" it, but, the shocks of birth and death seal it behind a powerful Maya.

    And so if I say Citta Chakra then I am speaking to something which witnesses all these births and deaths and retains their awareness and that of all the bardo and possible ghost-hood and so forth.

    The Vasubandhu article is from Trimsika or Thirty Verses which I think we already posted. This is the Yogacara pertinent to Avatamsaka and Lankavatara Sutras.

    Nirodha Samapatti is perhaps the most technically correct term for the suspended state.

    There is a Samjna or Phala Samapatti where a person retains a special awareness called Lokottara Citta. The Dhyanas are Pali, it does not originate in Vajrayana. And so the sadhanas accelerate our way into it.

    Here is an esoteric view of Nirodha explaining it from the inside and as to the longer the attainment, the longer the effect. Nowadays it is mostly relegated as a myth.

    Nirvikalpa could mean an utterly non-dual mind in an ordinarily-awake physical body, if one was Buddha. Otherwise, it is the higher Dhyanas, which include suspended states, one with awareness which would be like crossing the realms of death, and another without, which is closer to Deep Sleep.

    I am not personally able to say much about taking initiations on another plane, but I can say there is such a thing as Nirodha Samapatti, and this just means I am aware of it in a non-Buddhist manner. Maybe it is like having been taught by the Vairajas. I am not sure. I have experienced it from a few minutes up to about an hour up to probably not more than three hours.

    Vajra Tara on her first line is:

    sarvasampattivardhanīm

    Just as there is a Prajna Vardhani and a Sukha Vardhani, she is a Sampatti Vardhani. Sampatti categorically begins as the tantric Gauris and migrates to the kind being discussed.
    Last edited by shaberon; 13th October 2020 at 08:42.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    The Formless realm is a weird subject.

    The body-less lattice of everything connected to everything has no separate spaces, it has one unlimited space.

    The highest plane is more of a zero-dimensional Point, "perceived everywhere, found nowhere".

    It is the "unobserved" central point of the mandala, with the bounding circle as the spiritual reflection back to it.

    There is a Sanskrit word for "Point of Origin and Return" which perhaps makes a lot of sense interpreted into Buddhism. The Point is called Prabhavapayaya.

    It is an archaic term from a Purana Samhita or multi-puranic explanation.

    Prabhavapyaya is called in The Secret Doctrine the "One Form of Existence", and questions the translation "Form", leaning towards plane or place.

    Prabhava has many similarities to Prabha, "Royal Light" and so forth, but also, is the first year in a sixty-year Samvatsara cycle, and also "generative cause".

    Apyaya is absorption, dissolution into oneself.


    HPB says Svabhavat is the secondary stage of Prabhavapyaya. As a substance, Svabhavat is like a mental prakriti, and as a practice, it is Svabhavikakaya or tantric or gnostic Vajrasattva.

    It seems likely that in Buddhism it is the same tattvas or planes or worlds or realities as in some other Yogas, with a certain Noumenal application. Vajrasattva is the "next thing to" the Point, not in the sense of how subtle matter was differentiated at the dawn of time, but as collated in one's mindstream.


    Death is probably a heavy and disturbing presence until the conquering of Kama Loka, which, I am pretty sure, is portrayed by Vajrapani in Sarvadurgati Parishodana, but is more like a "state" of Trailokya Vijaya, which could be attained via Acala, Vajrabhairava, or certain other deities.

    The fourth chapter in Varamrita Tantra is Homa Vidhi which says, for Santika, Paustika (Nourishing) rites and so on:

    The maṇḍalācārya (i.e. the homācārya, the master who celebrates the homa liturgy) should first identify himself with Vajrasattva; adorned with all embellishments and in the ālīḍha posture, he should then perform the Victory of the Three Worlds (trailokyavijaya) (i.e. he should identify himself with the Krodharāja deity) and eventually cleanse the ground (bhūmisaṃśodhana): the practitioner should drive away the obstacles (vighnotsāraṇa), pay homage to the Guru, and attract the Deity of the Earth (pṛthivīdevatā).

    So for example, it is saying Wrathful King accomplishes Trailokyavijaya. That is why the wrathfuls inhere to any powerful mandala. It is defeating those powers, transcending those planes and/or their limitations.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Nirvikalpa refers to the Absolute:


    nirvikalpa (निर्विकल्प).—a (S) Of unchanging purpose; being "without variableness or shadow of turning"--the Deity. 2 Not admitting of difference or otherness (betwixt one's own spirit and the divine essence).

    Knowledge, not depending upon or derived from the senses.
    Or perhaps, to combine these two,
    Quote knowledge unchanged by the senses.
    Quote But there is also a sense we are getting at the state equal to Deep Sleep.

    Between ordinary consciousness, and the non-ness of Deep Sleep, it is possible to function fully consciously, in a non-physical body. This is possible to the extent that Buddha reached Enlightenment exactly this way, non-physically, in a Manomaya Kaya or Mayavi Rupa or Illusory Body in the Akanistha or Pure Lands.
    I spent upwards of an hour last night in what I have begun referring to as humming shaking: My whole body hums at just below hearing range (probably about 7-10Hz), it is the state that comes from the "decompose" part of the three jewels. My breathing drops off repeatedly in this state, and it does not feel like a problem like when I get meditation sickness.

    But it's also a state of waiting, if there is a conjoining of states, dissolve, decay coming in, and I am waiting at the fulcrum in this humming shaking state, then sometimes things happen. Last night, there was a grey cloud or curtain down over this so it was just a state of waiting, and there was a flitting. That was during one of the periods of great movement that happened during this waiting state. The movement within the state of waiting moving stillness happened with a great clarity -- as if everything was bathed in moonlight, is the way it ended up in my notes.

    Quote If I am not Buddha, then I helplessly revolve on a chain of death and reincarnation, and so part of what we are doing here is Explaining Death which, so to speak, builds a type of mental body that is not subject to the ordinary affairs of death, Vajra Kaya.
    Quote If I am not Buddha,
    then there is not nirvikalpa, because there is a boundary between what you are and what you are not.

    Quote Nirvikalpa could mean an utterly non-dual mind in an ordinarily-awake physical body, if one was Buddha. Otherwise, it is the higher Dhyanas, which include suspended states, one with awareness which would be like crossing the realms of death, and another without, which is closer to Deep Sleep.
    Nothing in shaking is completely still. The humming shaking is humming, but I'm sure it looks still. The shakings where I am put to sleep to practice and then woken up again look still but they are not still. The drop to nothing of my breathing looks still but it is not still. So I would guess I don't have this suspended state, because since I have been shaking, my deep sleep may or may not be still.

    I am still awed by the spitting of all the eyes from my tongue the other night. This is not a response to finding the fulcrum and moving through the jewels that could have happened earlier, I would not have had the deepening separation between sense information and what I could see. I guess this is what I also see as a suspension of the senses, even though it is visually, and other experientially quite rich to the breaking point.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    No idea if this fits, and is no doubt quite naive, but it is hard to find an avenue of response on this thread, although it is at times very interesting.

    At moments of greatest profundity I have found that I begin shaking, trembling. It is as though my body resonates with the sentiment. Yet if it is left unchecked, the quaking often becomes almost violent. The immediate inclination is to desecrate or denigrate the experience a smidgen in order to regain control.

    Yet it is this very control mechanism that has been lifted momentarily for the profound to have occurred in the first place.

    It is a conundrum.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote At moments of greatest profundity I have found that I begin shaking, trembling. It is as though my body resonates with the sentiment. Yet if it is left unchecked, the quaking often becomes almost violent. The immediate inclination is to desecrate or denigrate the experience a smidgen in order to regain control.
    I can only speak from my own experience. When I first started shaking regularly, I had this same sentiment, that if it got too violent, I would injure myself. In my experience, there is only one injury I had in a year and seven months of shaking for sometimes hours a day. That was that I stared so hard at something I strained the inside of my eye. I never had any injuries to muscles or bones or ligaments or tendons, though. I do take the precaution of doing my shaking on a bed (I have started shaking in the shower or standing otherwise, but I don't let that go unrestrained because of balance).

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    The verbal conundrum about voidness, or the subtlety of nirvikalpa or whether one is or isn't Buddha since there is a Buddha Garbha in all beings, is another instance to be placed in the center of Catuskoti.

    If I had been asked about it in the condition I was in, there would have been no one to comprehend the question. Or if there was someone, there was no such thing as words to them.

    The following paragraph is where Vajra Tara appears to merge Grasper and Grasped into voidness and Paramartha, and what is a little stranger is that this is taking place in a Citta Sarira which would have the literal meaning of Mental Body:

    tasmāc cittaśarīrāḥ sarvadharmāḥ teṣāṃ
    grāhyagrāhakaśūnyatā paramārtha ity evam ekāntena niścitya
    bhrāntisamāropitaṃ bhrānticihnaṃ sarvadharmāṇām ākāram apahāya
    teṣāṃ prakṛtim eva kevalām advayavijńaptilakṣaṇām
    śuddhasphaṭikasaṅkāśāṃ śaradamalamadhyāhnagaganopamāmanantāṃ
    paśyet / idam ucyate lokottaraṃ śūnyatājńānaṃ niṣprapańcaṃ
    nirvikalpam

    The words from the stem "bhrant-" would have a common meaning of wanderings as doubts and errors. Secondly, though, it could mean the rolling of a wheel, or revolutions. It is placed with Cihna, which is the usual term for "Family or Personal Symbol". It would appear to make sense if Ignorance Family has the Wheel as their symbol, but I cannot see how that fits here.


    The second sentence says "nisprapanca", which would generally mean "not subject to division", however it is also the negation of Prapanca.

    Mandukya Upanishad:

    Prapańca (प्रपञ्च, “phenomenal world”).—From the standpoint of Truth, prapańca or the phenomenal world or even the idea of perceiving them does not exist as separate from Brahman. Therefore no birth or death can be predicated of what exists ultimately.

    Also, recalling that Raca is what Guhyajnana appears to do to Dakinis, and Racana is perhaps a nickname or play on Vairocani:

    Prapańca (प्रपञ्च) refers to the “universe”, according to the Śivapurāṇa 2.2.26. Accordingly as Śiva said to Nanda, after the latter cursed Dakṣa (and others):—“[...] Who is this? Who are you? Who are these? In reality I am all. Consider everything in this light. In vain did you curse the Brahmins. Extracting the fundamental basis of the construction of the universe (prapańca-racana) through the knowledge of reality, be enlightened and self-assured, O intelligent one. Be free from anger and other emotions”.


    The Greek root words for Ecstasy mean out of body. It does not necessarily mean a projection, because withdrawal also takes one out of body.

    Laya as in Laya Yoga is also Zero or Dissolution.

    No, it cannot possibly be the same thing as shaking. That is...I don't know, a very personal instruction I guess. If anything, my body is trained the opposite way, for example to fight multiple people and walk away calm and supple as a rag. Or music with exact timing. However, it is inspirational in the sense that...I may have done a lot of Laya Yoga into a non-Buddhist Nirodha...it is helpful about adding the missing Buddhist parts, something like bliss in various families, which I think will help me do it again with better preparation.

    Compared to standard Adwaita terminology, the teaching does Nirguna and Sadguna meditations, and Sadguna is mainly vested in the Heart. On that, I don't have the same expertise, I don't have the Six Dharmas or anything like that, and so for instance hearing of Mandarava is an indication of Nirmanakaya, testimony of Indra's Net is almost revelation of Sambhogakaya, and so on.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    No idea if this fits, and is no doubt quite naive, but it is hard to find an avenue of response on this thread, although it is at times very interesting.

    At moments of greatest profundity I have found that I begin shaking, trembling. It is as though my body resonates with the sentiment. Yet if it is left unchecked, the quaking often becomes almost violent. The immediate inclination is to desecrate or denigrate the experience a smidgen in order to regain control.

    Yet it is this very control mechanism that has been lifted momentarily for the profound to have occurred in the first place.

    It is a conundrum.

    It happens with me as well as you suggested “in profound moments” I seem to get a “vibration”. It can be all kinds of things I suppose -from palpitations to tachycardia- but it’s not uncontrollable.
    For the better part it may be transformative process but I could do it better when I was young kid - the conflicting “vibe” from the environment would go through me and get reprocessed while I could not utter a word in those moments.

    Later I found out I can either stop it on button or induce it at will but it does not last too long.

    Even though, after those more recent events in Uruguay I caught serious vibration (like palpitation) all the time, the ways they used against me produced good lasting shock. And since I had to fly almost 24 hours from there to Finland to another “cool shock” and got out 3 months later to hands of another unknown friend in the UK,
    I figured out how to lock it and hold it within me until I’ve got personal freedom ..

    Thinking I’ll be able to “let go” , I’m not. I proved to be holding this down, for all the last year and this year. That said, I think I’m getting better at it now

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote The body-less lattice of everything connected to everything has no separate spaces, it has one unlimited space.

    The highest plane is more of a zero-dimensional Point, "perceived everywhere, found nowhere".

    It is the "unobserved" central point of the mandala, with the bounding circle as the spiritual reflection back to it.
    I did not know that about the unobserved central point in a mandala, but I did know about the interconnectedness, this is the experience when I can see into the jewel at my throat.

    Quote It seems likely that in Buddhism it is the same tattvas or planes or worlds or realities as in some other Yogas, with a certain Noumenal application. Vajrasattva is the "next thing to" the Point, not in the sense of how subtle matter was differentiated at the dawn of time, but as collated in one's mindstream.
    Except for the blowing out. Buddhism was (and is regarded in India, largely) an anti-Brahminical movement in some respects, but there was also in Siddhartha's experience a rejection of some yogic methods, principally asceticism and strong denial of the body, and there was a path then, and later a path again in Vajrayana, for accomplishing the blowing out in this lifetime, not far far into the future.

    Quote Death is probably a heavy and disturbing presence until the conquering of Kama Loka, which, I am pretty sure, is portrayed by Vajrapani in Sarvadurgati Parishodana, but is more like a "state" of Trailokya Vijaya, which could be attained via Acala, Vajrabhairava, or certain other deities.
    The way you have described of conquering Kama Loka does not seem to be the way outlined by the Dakinis as they have instructed me, which doesn't validate either over the other, but they are distinctly different. They have outlined something more like an exit along the path of death after consolidating my "self" in a completely rainbow body -- again, not to say this is the same rainbow body as Tibetan siddhis like, for instance, Mandarava, but one nevertheless.

    That said, I do not really know what happens to me when I am in the completely "three jewels" state, but I do record, and that shows that even though the perception is of not breathing at all at points, the actual is a kind of bated breath that is below perception but nevertheless measurable, with long pauses. But sometimes it doesn't happen that way at all. I was in said state for quite a while last night, and was fully embodying my own disintegration for something like an hour and a half, without any active thought.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote The Greek root words for Ecstasy mean out of body. It does not necessarily mean a projection, because withdrawal also takes one out of body.

    Laya as in Laya Yoga is also Zero or Dissolution.

    No, it cannot possibly be the same thing as shaking. That is...I don't know, a very personal instruction I guess. If anything, my body is trained the opposite way, for example to fight multiple people and walk away calm and supple as a rag. Or music with exact timing. However, it is inspirational in the sense that...I may have done a lot of Laya Yoga into a non-Buddhist Nirodha...it is helpful about adding the missing Buddhist parts, something like bliss in various families, which I think will help me do it again with better preparation.
    It's actually closer to "out of standing" meaning out of equilibrium.

    So two things on this. Buddhist Nirodha is the cessation of suffering. I'm not understanding the idea that Buddhism is just prior Yoga with a Buddhist overlay. Both for the historical reason that a lot of Yoga actually came from Buddhism and had its Buddhist parts altered more than they were removed, and for the reason that there are fundamental differences, even acknowledging the very large overlap between Vajrayana and Shakti.

    I'm not denying that such states of suspension exist, I'm questioning whether they are a necessity on the path.

    Quote I don't have the Six Dharmas or anything like that, and so for instance hearing of Mandarava is an indication of Nirmanakaya, testimony of Indra's Net is almost revelation of Sambhogakaya, and so on.
    It actually seems to be somewhat of a path by way of vast visions that require and complete a destruction of self in order to embody/apprehend them.[COLOR="red"][COLOR="red"]

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Buddhist Nirodha is the cessation of suffering. I'm not understanding the idea that Buddhism is just prior Yoga with a Buddhist overlay.

    I looked at this again recently in terms of an Orthodox Priest who was distinguishing Christianity from Buddhism.

    In his view, the goal of Buddhism is cessation of suffering, in kind of a feed-the-world mentality.

    He said his goal was a State of Grace and a type of Everlasting Life without Sorrow.

    I find that Cessation of Suffering is the goal in the same way as it being Refuge of One. This must then be the same as Buddhahood, which was originally translated as Enlightenment, but even in the Sutras it is called Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.

    That could be described as including grace and life without sorrow. Once we start to define "suffering", we quickly get to 84,000 dharma teachings. It is like the One Law that includes whatever it needs. Following it as explained makes a Complete Manifest Buddha.

    The principal historical rivalry between Brahmanism and Buddhism is there largely because Adi Shankara did not hear of the Nirakara or Para Sunya philosophy in Buddhism. And then on the other hand, Buddhist commentors did not obtain Adi Shankara's personal system, either. But they are about the same. For example there is Byoma Kusuma who is from the Rana dynastic family in Nepal, born and raised in the Hindu Yoga as done there, and, became a Buddhist convert since he saw it denied Atma. And then on further pursuit, when he found Para Sunya or now mostly called Shentong, he was shocked that he found the same thing he thought he converted out of. I tried to ask him about it personally but never got an answer.

    It is probably true that Buddhism is disinterested in Brahmanism as a type of caste which buries the Yoga system deep within, and is more Puranical or like a tradition that is open to anyone who is interested and wants to try.

    Tibetans quickly point out that the main difference in their practice is Bliss, but, I can find Ananda Bhairava or Lalita or Kamakhya Devi and cannot deny they are blissful. So the difference is probably less in the "fact" of bliss, than the "how", and the what are you doing with it.

    There was the full system of Sita and King Janaka in Buddha's time, and so Gautama, personally, would not have had anything else as a comparison basis. Because he validates the Vedic Sages and recommends doing an Inner Homa, he is saying something about placing oneself in the state or condition of a Sage, like we say state of Vajradhara. Exactly how close or not the two systems are, could be seen in comparing Brihadaranyaka Upanishad to Vajra Rosary. We have already found a virtual plagiarism of Bhagavad Gita tucked into Ratna Gotra Vibhaga.

    The main difference to me is the refusal to remain in quiescent Nirvana and to manifest successful compassionate action.

    I could try to take the Nepalese view that there was Dipamkara Buddha and the Historical Buddhas, and that Manjushri is like a lord of civilization who perhaps was behind Hindu Yoga anyway. What is easier for me as a Tara devotee is that, oh, she comes with an unbroken continuity of consciousness from another universe. That is the point of Paramartha. The meditation may resemble destruction because it penetrates that part of the Dharma Realm which withstands the destruction of a world-system. We could say at that time, there are those beings who are in a Deathless condition and have the Paramartha, and those who do not who will simply be eliminated.

    On a realistic time frame, we have hundreds of thousands, millions of years, something like that.

    And so we are in the territory that is the difference in Buddhist schools, mostly about the Alaya and/or the Three Natures, and the very highest Dhyanas and final stages of the Bodhisattva Path. There are minor differences in philosophy and what is trained.

    That is why I think it behooves us to stick around Prajna Paramita or perhaps Upaya Paramita, which is like a working bundle of the vast majority of the teachings. Also that the only real technique suggested for outer Yoga practice is Soft Vase breathing. When we get into more advanced, specialized things, certain techniques may benefit some and not others. Traditionally, this is where the guru's personal instruction is desired.


    However, it remains the case if someone is able to peer into the Mirror Wisdom, you can get to the Dharmadhatu, the source of all phenomena, Nirvana or Samsara. Once you sort of break loose from the earthly bonds, it is possible to go a little deeper than expected.

    In Tibet the returner from a suspended state is called a Delog, usually only one or two of which is recorded per century. In the 1930s a sixteen year old girl did this against the wishes of her authorities. She went to Forest of Turquoise Leaves where Twenty-one Praises of Tara is sung in Sanskrit and it lasted about five days.

    A lot of what I have experienced is really not for the faint of heart. Dangerous in many ways. Karmicly I may be a little more tied to ghost or demon hunting than the average person is comfortable with. Currently a lot of things have been detrimental to me and I am lucky to feel good at all. So Obstacle Clearing is very meaningful to me.

    I am fortunate to be able to testify that there is Bliss of any kind, and I could easily regenerate it, but even so, I would be pretty far from rainbow liquid and so forth. And it looks like a main part of the Vajra Tara sadhana eventuates in transmuting the Dhyani Buddhas into Pancha Amrita or five-fold nectar. Even though I cannot interpret most of the narrative, the substance of it weighs heavily towards the most subtle or sublime aspects of Yogacara run through both a Formless and then perhaps what you could call a Deified Form experience.

    I cannot quite tell anyone to try to become a Delog or any type of physical or Hatha technique. These things are to be aware of and consider how they may fit to one's own existence.

    I find it very telling that the Vajra Rosary combines what I am more familiar with as Deathlessness to the practice of Bliss which is expanded into families and realms and so forth.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I do hope this comment comes out where I tried to put it, as a response to Agape. I have tried to post it several times now and it did something else, appending to other of my comments. If it does so this time I will just leave it.

    Do you mean that the shaking you feel is at your heart -- causing palpitations and tachycardia?

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    Quote The principal historical rivalry between Brahmanism and Buddhism is there largely because Adi Shankara did not hear of the Nirakara or Para Sunya philosophy in Buddhism.
    Buddhism was an anti-brahminical movement from its inception. I had told you I began reading the Avatamsaka Sutra (Thomas Cleary ed.), I'm on page 110, and so far they are delineating the "enlightening beings" gathered at Buddha's enlightenment. Among them are all the demon level supernaturals. They had been converted because they would have lived lives in hell in the brahminical world, the Vedic world, but were saved from this suffering by all of the methods they memorialize in that chapter. The parable value of such stories to the masses to convert people away from the brahminical system with its castes is pretty clear.

    Avatamsaka Sutra was compiled, if not some of it also written, in Khotan in the period from 200-400 C.E. Adi Shankara is 700 C.E. It already discusses three vehicles.

    Quote The meditation may resemble destruction because it penetrates that part of the Dharma Realm which withstands the destruction of a world-system. We could say at that time, there are those beings who are in a Deathless condition and have the Paramartha, and those who do not who will simply be eliminated.
    I do not think this follows as an only conclusion in Buddhist thought. I was specifically instructed by my Zen master not to seek this state.

    Quote That is why I think it behooves us to stick around Prajna Paramita or perhaps Upaya Paramita, which is like a working bundle of the vast majority of the teachings. Also that the only real technique suggested for outer Yoga practice is Soft Vase breathing. When we get into more advanced, specialized things, certain techniques may benefit some and not others. Traditionally, this is where the guru's personal instruction is desired.
    Hence my question about the Dakinis. Shaking is very old, it is perhaps the oldest of techniques. But it does turn out to be a place where the ego can be shed, and the worlds that result from that are so far endless.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Buddhism was an anti-brahminical movement from its inception.
    Perhaps. What does Buddha say that would indicate so?

    As far as caste and everything about institutions, yes, probably contra, but as far as the inner meaning of yoga, not as much. For example, he rejected Karma Kanda or intricately-ritualized daily behavior, but then Kalachakra is a pretty big daily routine. However it is not the rules for all householders. So that message was telling the majority of Hindus that the things they spend most of their time with, are unnecessary. I can imagine that being liberating to some, insulting to others.

    The Kriya tantras are designed to handcuff any Brahmanical converts who come in with the "Tirtha" mentality, which is the Buddhist way of scoffing at such Vedic ritualism as believing that jumping in the Ganges will save you. If you think that way, then, the lowest level of tantra will have meaning for you and you can have a full life doing it and the inner meaning will never be imparted.

    Samdhi Nirmocana is probably the oldest recognizable Yogacara text from ca. 150.



    Quote I do not think this follows as an only conclusion in Buddhist thought. I was specifically instructed by my Zen master not to seek this state.
    Yes most Zen and Chan as far as I am aware are Sakara Vada or Cittamatra Yogacara which would typically either deny Nirakara exists or teach against it. It generally only will be allowed in some Sakya, Jonang, or Kagyu, mainly in the influence of Dolpopa.

    I am sure that is provisionally true, it is not necessarily advisable for everyone to try it. Since I know it exists, I would go so far as to say it is important to do something else, first. Something like it would be best to stabilize an outer Yoga practice, with Ngondro or Preliminaries and some basic modifications.

    It is hard to explain. I was watching Bees and began to get either a Shimmering Mirage or Roiling Smoke as a First Sign, along with the pale yellowish generic life aura of everything. The learning curve was actually pretty flat for several months, and then, in a short period of time, it went through the rest of the Signs or all of Dissolutions like Death guided by Tara, except I didn't have any Tara, just the disintegration of a bindu and a non- or would-be syllable and therefor no real subsequent arising of a Hand Symbol, more like skeletal fingers. Like a poor, flimsy way of doing a Suksma Cycle. It took probably a year or so to feel how Bliss was involved and by that point, I was probably in the Laya Yoga camp, with still little of anything from Buddhism. I had to check it out for a long time before I was willing to take Refuge in it. Then I still had to flail around with different kinds of Guru Yoga until the plain Vajradhara kind "clicked" and I learned more about the Kagyu system from books than in the meditation hall. They never gave me any kind of catechism, I went through everything, found the affinity, and eventually went back a few more times. Esoterically, however, they give you Prajnaparamita, which means you may become a devotee.

    I can still remember a bottle of cleaner I hallucinated on my first visit.


    Here is an extremely complicated Vasubandhu document from Abhidharmakosa, a fairly early (5th century) Yogacara cornerstone. For this article to make sense to any kind of audience, they must at least have a concept of why there would be six kinds of Arhats and so forth. And so on this page, we see Nirodha used in a basic way in the Four Noble Truths, and, further along, it returns in:

    The Anāgāmin who has acquired extinction is considered a Kāyasākṣin.

    An Anangamin is not yet even an Arhat, and yet he has some aspect of Nirodha that makes him a Kaya (Buddha Body) Saksin (Witness).

    It could perhaps be said that Nirodha is a matter of degree, like Nirvana. If Vairocana is Brahma or Shanpa or the Entrance to Nirvana, and we know this is actually a metaphysical crux at the core of one's skull which can increase its power, then like many other things, Nirodha comes at a Conceptual level before it is Actual:

    When he [the Yogin] enters into Nirvāṇa, he suppresses the five aggregates of attachment (pańcopādānaskandha) that will be continued no longer: that is the notion of cessation (nirodhasaṃjńā)”.

    According to Ten Concepts of Prajnaparamita prior to Ten Knowledges (Jnana). However it is not "this statement" that is the concept--the experience Nirvana and the suppression of the Skandhas is itself the concept of Nirodha. Once you find out how to use this gate of Nirvana, it is not a static picture, the Actual Knowledge will grow on the Concept.

    Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa page refers to Kama Dhatu many times, until, at the end, there is a Nirodha Dhatu. So, at least, in this one spot, Nirodha runs from the End of Suffering to Sphere of Annihilation. Suffering is largely synonymous with Kama Dhatu.



    Adi Shankara was in Kanchi, South India, somewhat closely contemporaneous to Haribhadra, who may have the first recension that distinguishes Nirakara Vijnana Vada as a viewpoint, which, in its own terms, may also be called Para Sunya, which instead would closely associate it with the Shiva view of the same. Adi Shankara died when he was only thirty-two, and, never encountered these particular representatives from North India, such as Haribhadra or anyone similar.

    Buddhism simply allows multiple viewpoints, and plenty of the lifelong practitioners like to acquire empowerments from several gurus and schools.

    There definitely is a "psychic radar" that can alert you when other advanced beings are present and one of the few who ever set mine off was a Nyingma Dzogchen master. Well he was speaking in a Kagyu assembly. He is not even part of our school and I am pretty sure we may have a few philosophical differences and I bet he focused almost entirely on Illusory Body because he had been in a cave for most of the last twenty years. He replied positively to me wanting his opinion on Kama Loka, being the same thing relevant to Death or Dreams, and he said yes it was so, and that any boundaries or limitations in it were only those placed by one's own mind.

    I can't put any extra words in his mouth, but, I got the sense he was speaking from something he had personally observed.

    Shentong purports to be a Middle Way between Prasangika and Cittamatra.

    Prasangika is the main philosophy of H. H. Dalai Lama's school which says that ultimately, nothing can be ascribed to emptiness other than it is empty of any nature, whereas Shentong says it has its own Nature which is Absolute and therefor unlike anything else.

    Cittamatra tends to say that the mind has an image and undergoes changes from moment to moment, whereas Shentong would tend to say that this is an "other" nature that the Absolute does not have. This is where it is pretty close to the doctrine of Parabrahm or Nirguna Brahman of the Adwaitees.

    I am personally more of a Shentong proponent, and am trying to show its historical continuity to the Sanskrit originals, particularly since its reasonable chance to thrive was somewhat suppressed by the Gelug order.

    As a personality, I would say that anyone who enjoys Samadhi of any kind is doing well. In a generic sense, I think it should be like a free handout in the first grade. I believe it would improve mind, health, and social order. The rest of the details and training are like an accelerant for the avid.

    With the Dakinis, it appears they have a very cyclical aspect. There is a reason to speak of Five Dakinis, associated with the five-fold bundle of form, but then there is reason to speak of Four Dakinis who are the inner petals to various central deities.

    The Four are also said to correspond to the highest four Bodhisattva Bhumis or Paramitas. So to even look at Upaya Paramita is like asking to stand permanently on the Ground associated with the first Dakini, who is easy to remember, because her name is always just Dakini.

    In my view, because I understand Parasol and Vairocani at least a little bit, Vajradakini proudly steps forward as an operative power. She is Upeksha, which is in the Four Brahma Vihara which are copied from Brahmanism and present in practically all Buddhist Sadhanas, and ultimately she is the Seventh Jewel of Enlightenment, beyond Samadhi, itself, which must make Upeksha something more metaphysical and more Buddhist than in most other Yoga. All of Vairocani's retinue, from Pranava Varnani on out, are all Vajradakinis. Then Vajradakini is the samaya for the major Varahi or Cinnamasta deities.

    Parasol even does us the favor in her Six Arm form of losing the Parasol from her white form. She then has a blue manifestation as Maha Pratyangira in Vajra Family. Immediately this suggests a female variety of the six-arm blue male deity of the heart in Father Tantra.

    Without anything more than a general picture of Parasol and the specific manifestations of Vajradakini at the crown and elsewhere, that whole slice of existence starts to work. I do not have to invoke or think much about the dakini on an individual basis, it is like she is packed into one of Parasol's items.

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