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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote I think, your sarcasm is also, entirely human there.
    There was none. I was thinking about what you said, and thought how I do that. I have plenty of confirmation from the Dakinis, and yet I go to humans, to ask, "Have you ever heard of this?"

    Quote Not sure what /or who are you mocking here based on the presumption of inherent ignorance ?
    No one. The presumption of inherent ignorance is universal, we all are told, time and again that we have Buddha nature, but none of us believes we will ever get there, even after being told there's no where we need to get.

    Quote None of this defines me ( or anyone for that purpose). Old Masters had different path than most of us can embrace these days.
    Why is that? I'm not saying this facetiously or sarcastically. Why does everyone in this age believe we can never be or understand what was understood a thousand years ago? Did we fall off some genetic cliff? The passage of the age, in Vimalaprabha is a documentable thing in archaeological and written history, it is what I referred to as the destruction of the Buddhist World 1003 to 1225 or so, and then a rerun in the 1400's. What is it we think we cannot do?

    Quote I try to stay with my wisdom when posting on public forum, which this is. There are countless agencies out there trying to collect private information on individuals and I’m not in favor of stripping myself or others naked in public or documenting my experiences on FB.
    I do not have that option, although I am not nor have I ever been on FB.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote And so the point is that Deep Sleep is similar to the Third Void, and the most mystical condition happens beyond that threshhold, in either the Raja Yoga or Buddhist portrayal.

    The Voids occur naturally along with the sleep process; accessing them in meditation is perhaps like putting the body to sleep without affecting the consciousness.

    In that case, waking up should be at least a bit like Emerging in Reverse Order. It is like descending through planes.

    And so I talk about sinning against Vajradhara as soon as I wake up, and sinning against the others before long, more or less because I am usually awakened by physical things and thrust into material concerns.

    My preference would be to feel a gossamer-like awareness that is not in the body, slowly enters it, pushes light through, and gradually manifests in a mandala-like manner.
    This I can more closely understand. I originally did shaking from my standing, or from just sitting in a chair. That was when I was doing "therapeutic" shaking, meaning that I did it to fix or repair injuries and aches and pains. I learned that it was more effective if I entered the shaking state from sleep (waking into it) and started doing it at night. It was shortly after that that the Dakinis arrived.

    What makes it easier to do that way is that there is some kind of link between my body and mind that seems different than when I am sitting awake.
    Quote Thus, for instance in enumerating the seven lokas of the "Kama-Loka" the Avatamsaka Sutra, gives as the seventh, the "Territory of Doubt." I will ask you to remember the name as we will have to speak of it hereafter. Every such "world" within the Sphere of Effects has a Tathagata, or "Dhyan Chohan" -- to protect and watch over, not to interfere with it."
    This is the same Kama-Loka as before?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    This is the same Kama-Loka as before?
    Yes.

    I honestly believe too much talk about higher planes and tenth or twelfth dimensions is misleading, because, for just about anyone who is not an Arhat, Kama Loka is probably the most metaphysically-poignant subject.

    In many classifications it is described as having six planes, however, in Buddhism, it has a seventh, which is the Akanistha or Pure Lands.

    Becoming fused to the seventh plane is equivalent in terms of practice to developing the Sambhoga Kaya.

    This consists of the Sister class of deities, which are "subterranean", having a dual meaning. In one sense, it is none other than demons in the descending bowels of the hot hells interior to the earth. At the same time, "subterranean" also means "under the surface of the body", so i. e. the Chakras, Channels, and Sacred Sites and their yoginis.

    When the Father applies Method properly, the Sisters produce Bliss.

    Also the Yaksha kindgom applies here. It is either effectively a demon, or one's life force and wisdom, simply depending on who is in control.

    Hence all the "conversion" mythology. It is fine if something was a demon. When we have the story of Vajrapani and Ghasmari conquering Maheshvara and so forth, it is irrelevant to us that they did it, they don't need any help. What is relevant is that in the mind and aura we imitate whatever it is that they did.

    The gates of Kama Loka are the same way. The Four Kings are not Wisdom Beings, they are Oath-bound Wrathful Ghosts, and they are still dangerous.

    The second plane is Indra Heaven or Heaven of the Thirty-three, also the residence of Viswakarman. This is the last plane that has anything to do with the physical world.

    And so if you pass that point, living or dead, and you have Karmic Wind, then it will sweep you into the objective reflection or the underworld called Talas. It would be similar to a dream where you are not in control and are being pushed around. You will magnetize either towards the bottom, which is like a slow roast, or, if you are incredibly sinful, you will, in a sense, rise to the Akanistha and get kicked into its evil twin, which is so hot that it instantly vaporizes you, like the planet's molten core. So to speak, the "evil higher" is actually lower, and there is only so far it can go. If you deserve punishment, it works a little differently, the hot hells are for the typical person who was not that powerful in evil causes or evil institutions.

    It is similar to what the Book of the Dead says, the main difference being that is a symbolic meditation, and so for example death is not literally a forty-nine day journey for everybody. The subjective time passed could seem anywhere from an instant to eternity. The actual time elapsed is often over a thousand years before reincarnating.

    Without a body, what could we possibly be Grasping at...some kind of kama rupa...which is not even stable, so it cannot be Absolute, so we lose every time.

    The Element or Realm consisting of kama rupas may simply be called Kama Dhatu, which is frequently referred to as Suffering.

    Kama Dhatu Ishvari is Lakshmi, mainly in her dark aspect, which means it would relate to Deep Sleep and Nidra or Urmila.

    Varnani must thereby be an acolyte of hers.

    Sita is Urmila's sister, and nothing may say they are the two branch nerves or Vairocani and Varnani, but there is at least a little similarity. Nepalese Buddhism has no trouble accepting Sita as a Vasudhara.

    And so when I look at the disciples in Avatamsaka Sutra, then there must be a difference between them and the Hearers who are able to watch Buddha's magical manifestation, and there could be all sorts of details, but the main factor appears to be Karuna. And this is Avalokiteshvara.

    He proved you could get people out of hell, but not stop them from going there.

    I personally feel a challenge or mission similar to that. If you can get even one person to change their mind about going to hell, then, you did a Karuna in this life.

    That sounds semi-easy but of course, the truth is not in any of the words, it is in their mind and aura, which they are probably ignorant and helpless in regard to. That is the Anatta doctrine. In the Pali it says "beings are not Nath", are helpless especially about matters of rebirth, whereas Buddha is Nath or is helpful, not because he is going to fix anything for you, but to give you the right encouragement and guidance so you do it yourself.

    As for the metaphysical difference between a spiritual path and a physiologically-similar path which is not necessarily spiritual, here, HPB is using the term Tantrika not...in its tantric sense, but a bit more in the general public low opinion of it, but she is really pointing out why there is a debased tantra, or, why a system of five elements that occultly begins in the Muladhara is not at all the same thing as the system that adds spiritual principles:

    The science of the five breaths––the moist, the fiery, the airy, etc., etc.––has a twofold significance and two applications. By the Tântrikas it is accepted literally, as relating to the regulation of the vital, lung breath, but by the ancient Râja-Yogis as referring to the mental or “will” breath, which alone leads to the highest clairvoyant powers, to the function of the Third Eye and the acquisition of the true Râja-Yoga occult powers. The difference between the two is enormous. The former, as shown, use the five lower Tattvas; the latter begin by using the three higher alone––for mental and will development––and the rest only when they have completely mastered the three; hence, they use only one (Âkâsa Tattva) out of the Tântric five. As well said in the above stated work, “Tattvas are the modifications of Svara.” Now, the Svara is the root of all sound, the substratum of the Pythagorean music of the spheres, Svara being that which is beyond spirit, in the modern acceptation of the word––the spirit of the spirit, or as very properly translated, the “current of the life wave,” the emanation of the One Life. The Great Breath spoken of in Volume I of The Secret Doctrine is ÂTMAN, the etymology of which is “eternal motion.” Now, while the ascetic-chela of our school follows carefully, for his mental development, the process of the evolution of the Universe, that is, proceeds from universals to particulars, the Hatha-Yogi reverses the conditions and begins by sitting for the suppression of his (vital) breath. And if, as Hindu philosophy teaches, at the beginning of cosmic evolution, “Svara threw itself into the form of Âkâsa,” and thence successively into the forms of Vâyu (air), Agni (fire), Âpas (water), and Prithivî (solid matter),* then it stands to reason that we have to begin by the higher supersensuous Tattvas. The Râja-Yogi does not descend on the planes of substance beyond Sűkshma (subtle matter); while the Hatha-Yogi develops and uses his powers only on the material plane. A good proof of this is found in the fact that the Tântrika locates the three “Nâdis,” (Sushumna, Idâ, and Pingala) in the medulla oblongata, the central line of which he calls Sushumna, and the right and left divisions, Pingala and Idâ––and also the heart, to the divisions of which he applies the same names. The Trans-Himâlayan school, of the ancient Indian Râja-Yogis, with which the modern Yogis of India have little to do, locates Sushumna, the chief seat of these three Nâdis, in the central tube of the spinal cord, and Idâ and Pingala on its left and right sides. Sushumna is the Brahmadanda. It is that tube (of the two along the spinal cord) of the use of which physiology knows no more than it does of the spleen and the pineal gland. Idâ and Pingala are simply the sharp and flat of that Fa (of human nature), the keynote and the middle key in the scale of the septenary harmony of the principles––which, when struck in a proper way, awakens the sentries on both sides, the spiritual Manas and the physical Kâma, and subdues the lower through the higher. But this effect has to be produced by exercise of will-power, not through the scientific or trained suppression of the breath. Take a transverse section of the spinal cord, and you will find that the shaded parts show sections across the tube, the one side of which tube transmits the volitional orders, and the other a life current of Jîva––not of Prâna, sent down to animate the lower extremities of man––during what is called Samâdhi and like states.

    He who has studied both systems, the Hatha and Râja-Yoga, finds an enormous difference between the two: one is purely psycho-physiological, the other purely psycho-spiritual. The Tântrists do not seem to go higher than the six visible and known plexuses, with each of which they connect the Tattvas; and the great stress they lay on the chief of these, the Műladhâra Chakra (the sacral plexus), shows the material and selfish bent of their efforts towards the acquisition of powers. Their five Breaths and five Tattvas are chiefly concerned with the prostatic, epigastric, cardiac, and laryngeal plexuses. Almost ignoring the Agneya, they are positively ignorant of the synthesizing pharyngeal plexus. But with the followers of the old school it is different. We begin with the mastery of that organ which is situated at the base of the brain, in the pharynx, and called by Western anatomists the Pituitary Body. In the series of the objective cranial organs, corresponding to the subjective Tattvic principles, it stands to the “Third Eye” (Pineal Gland) as Manas stands to Buddhi; the arousing and awakening of the Third Eye must be performed by that vascular organ, that insignificant little body, of which, once again, physiology knows nothing at all. The one is the Energizer of WILL, the other that of Clairvoyant Perception.

    She then uses the symbol of a Pentagram inscribed in a Hexagram, or the *use* of five-fold form *by* the spiritually-attuned Manas. She is not that great of a Buddhist explainer, but actually is pretty good in showing mostly equivalent things in Puranic terms. With the Three Natures she is good.

    Varuni is the original driver of the tantric process, she is an infusion of Akash. It, however, does not "start" in the Ajna, unless you ignore the beginning of it until, for instance, in Vajra Rosary, it reaches that point. You could perhaps argue that someone in Generation Stage has not "started". The way HPB uses the term "Chela" certainly seems to apply to someone who not only is in Completion Stage but is competent in at least some of the Six Dharmas.

    The main difference I think between Kama and Bliss is the factor of Grasping. If you relax the Grasping and start acting out of Karuna, you will have fewer problems in Kama Loka or "that which is Grasped".


    In the case of things that are physically therapeutic, it is all news and information to me. Like H. H. Dalai Lama says, he has never been depressed, and that makes him sad since he does not think he really understands what happens to someone who is depressed. I understand psychological problems quite well, and, I have no real recognition of physical discomfort, since my body will naturally push itself into a very good feeling. It is like I am ignorant about why this might not happen for everyone automatically.

    And so if you "opened" something based around the hypnagogic or cusp-of-falling-asleep, that makes sense...once you got the hang of it, then it perhaps "mobilized" to work at other times or for reasons other than discomfort?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Quote I hesitate to say "final state", I think what we can get is more like a "necessary condition" as in something that is "the one root of all these tantras". It "is" a final state if we perhaps call it Samadhi, but those samadhis are infinitely increasing. Or if we think in bodily terms, it "is" the Avadhut, except this keeps getting more and more subtle.
    There are multiple ways to interpret the "root of all these tantras".

    Here I misspoke slightly. It should have been "root of all these sadhanas". I was getting at what Mipham said:

    "The prayer in seven lines is root of all these sadhanas.

    Within the Ground, these lines denote
    The seven kinds of consciousness;

    Upon the Path, they represent
    The seven branches of enlightenment;

    And when the Fruit is won, they are perfected
    As the seven sacred riches of the ultimate."


    He had in mind a common daily Nyingma verse, but, it is also the case that Guru Yoga includes a Seven Limb Prayer, which could also be seven visible offerings, less the "invisible sound or music" offering. It is usually based in confession and asking the Buddhas to appear and remain in the realm of sentient beings.

    Mipham is part of Rime' which means it is non-sectarian, so the Pith of what it is saying applies to all sadhanas.

    "Ground" is body-and-mind-as-they-are, and so by saying seven consciousnesses, it is like the Asta Vijnana except saying the eighth is either not in man, or it represents a future state, and so this has for the apex, the Klista Manas or Addicted Mind, which as we see, is specifically focused, purified, and revealed by Vajradhara and Vajrayogini. And so any type of Seven Limb Offering may be understood on a verse-by-verse basis as the Ayatanas plus Klista Manas, or the Fives Senses, plus sixth sense of mind, plus a hidden sense of subtle mind.

    By "Path", he does not just mean the stages or degrees of the Path, but, just as the senses and minds are simultaneously present and continuous, the Seven Jewels are simultaneously present and continuous. Here, we might say the same for Seven Paramitas, even if Mipham does not explicitly state this, the meaning is intended to be adjunct.

    The Path or Seven Jewels are not Enlightenment, they are what makes it possible. Their deified form is from Seven Syllable Vajradaka:

    Smrti is Sri Heruka, Dharma Pravicaya is Heruki, Virya is Vajrabhairavi, Priti is Ghoracandi, Prasrabdhi is Vajrabhaskari (Light Maker), Samadhi is Vajraraudri, Upeksa is Vajradakini.

    These are not the Six Yogas, but it does include Smrti and Samadhi, which are part of them, or really, the culmination of them. So all the adjunct and parallel meanings are, of course, required, to make these powers work.


    As Fruit, the motivation is to make Complete Manifest Buddha. This means to perform Samadhi at par with the Tathagatas which means equal to All Buddhas. It manifests the Absolute:

    enlightened body
    enlightened speech
    enlightened mind
    enlightened qualities
    enlightened activity
    dharmadhatu
    primordial wisdom (Jnana or Yeshe)

    Those seven are the normal order of the Families, however, they are essentially the same as the Seven Vajra Mysteries from RGV.

    If the Body-less practice, or Sky, or Void, is well-known prior to Buddhism, then it is not much different from the Sutra level of Sunyata. There has to be this type of sunyata established to proceed. Prajna is wisdom of emptiness. Vajrasattva is Prajna-Upaya, so, if there is no prajna, he is still in a basic purifying mode and hasn't really started to tick. If we pick up the Ngondro, it generally begins with Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra and Vajrasattva. And so the sunyata rinses the mind and produces a change in being that is considered essential. This came out in written form at least as early as ca. year 75 and for most purposes was the most advanced teaching for centuries.

    The Final Turning of the Wheel of Dharma is Womb of Compassion, Garbhadhatu, or Tathagatagarbha. This states that Buddha Nature is inherently potential in all beings. And this is chiefly compiled into Ratna Gotra Vibhaga, or RGV, ca. 300-400, also called Uttaratantra.

    Ratnamati was said to be a major proponent of this doctrine ca. 500, and became a teacher to Nagarjuna, another well-known proponent being Sthiramati.

    This is represented in the brief Lion's Roar Sutra of Queen Srimala Devi whose first chapter is Removing Doubt, and the same continues in the guise of Lion's Roar Samadhi and can be seen in Avatamsaka and Lankavatara Sutras, or on Simhanada deities.

    It is like Mipham gave Three Jewels utilizing the system of Seven, or has shown the main way that Seven works for non-Buddhas as Grounds, Path, and Fruit. That is how I am able to see it as the core of all of the doctrines and explanations, like a "container". It does not seem to contradict Vajra Rosary, but resembles it. In practice, of course, the Sixth or Vajrasattva is the main "developmental unit", which is why Dakini Jala or a Six Family Wheel is the main technique, and we usually look at the seventh as almost unreachable, which is why the Seven Syllable deity is that of Completion Stage. That is a bit like HPB saying a Chela will activate his sixth and seventh tattvas before you get into the comprehensive mandalas like Kalachakra, Manjughosha, or Dakarnava. In that case, she makes sense with respect to Buddhism.

    Aeon published an essay which does a decent job at comparing Catuskoti to western math and logic and comes to the conclusion that Buddhism has found a way to talk about the Ineffable.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote This consists of the Sister class of deities, which are "subterranean", having a dual meaning. In one sense, it is none other than demons in the descending bowels of the hot hells interior to the earth. At the same time, "subterranean" also means "under the surface of the body", so i. e. the Chakras, Channels, and Sacred Sites and their yoginis.
    In the flitting, and I haven't figure this out or been told anything about it, I am the silver skinned dakini if it happens immediately, if it delays for some reason, I become ashes and fierce. Don't really know what that all means but I do see how they can be a Sister class.
    Quote And so when I look at the disciples in Avatamsaka Sutra, then there must be a difference between them and the Hearers who are able to watch Buddha's magical manifestation, and there could be all sorts of details, but the main factor appears to be Karuna. And this is Avalokiteshvara.
    Which has a complex relationship to Upaya Paramita? There has to be a reason why both are called compassion. And are distinguished yet again from something like Dana Paramita.

    Quote We begin with the mastery of that organ which is situated at the base of the brain, in the pharynx, and called by Western anatomists the Pituitary Body. In the series of the objective cranial organs, corresponding to the subjective Tattvic principles, it stands to the “Third Eye” (Pineal Gland) as Manas stands to Buddhi; the arousing and awakening of the Third Eye must be performed by that vascular organ, that insignificant little body, of which, once again, physiology knows nothing at all. The one is the Energizer of WILL, the other that of Clairvoyant Perception.
    I think nowadays, we do know what those other branches against the spine do, and we do know what the pituitary gland does. Nevertheless, there is no stopping them from doing other things than what has been teased out by closed loop neuroscience.

    Quote The main difference I think between Kama and Bliss is the factor of Grasping. If you relax the Grasping and start acting out of Karuna, you will have fewer problems in Kama Loka or "that which is Grasped".
    I am a little lost on Kama versus Bliss in my shaking, unless Kama would be when the bliss was not acting like energy, like in a downward flow that needs to be redirected. On the other hand, I'm also a little at a loss on the whole skillful means thing that is going on, and how it is supposed to play out.

    Quote In the case of things that are physically therapeutic, it is all news and information to me. Like H. H. Dalai Lama says, he has never been depressed, and that makes him sad since he does not think he really understands what happens to someone who is depressed. I understand psychological problems quite well, and, I have no real recognition of physical discomfort, since my body will naturally push itself into a very good feeling. It is like I am ignorant about why this might not happen for everyone automatically.
    Some of it is rudimentary -- this shoulder is aching from, say, pulling out weeds that were too much force and should have been attacked with a trowel, or fingers that are kind of cramped from too much practicing piano, and that is just sort of burrowing into the joint or muscle with, I guess, will, and moving things around and shaking them until the cramp or strain is gone away. Others, injury or, say migraines, are more complicated. A migraine is actually a neurological event that becomes a pain event, so I'm not really sure what the physical mechanism is there, but it requires a shaking in which I make my head come apart and more, so not all physical in its perception (It works well to peel my scalp away from my skull and shake them in different directions and along different planes until I find the center of the migraine and sort of dissolve it).

    Quote And so if you "opened" something based around the hypnagogic or cusp-of-falling-asleep, that makes sense...once you got the hang of it, then it perhaps "mobilized" to work at other times or for reasons other than discomfort?
    It would not be at all hard, but there are reasons why it is easier and better to do at night on waking from sleep. What the hypnagogic (or to be totally accurate, hypnopompic because it is waking) state provides is an easy place where I have listening (in the Taiji sense) but have no constructed goals -- If I did this during the day from waking, I would either have goals, or would have to meditate to not have them, and that latter would take some time. Time is the big thing, some of these shakings last for hours. It doesn't bother me if they happen at night since they are easily just as good as sleep for regenerating. So it saves quite a bit of time.

    But yes, I could do it from waking and not be doing discomfort management. I do, actually, sometimes during my standing, or sometimes in the shower. The latter is tricky because I could lose my footing, especially if any of the kriya happened.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    And so when I look at the disciples in Avatamsaka Sutra, then there must be a difference between them and the Hearers who are able to watch Buddha's magical manifestation, and there could be all sorts of details, but the main factor appears to be Karuna. And this is Avalokiteshvara.

    Which has a complex relationship to Upaya Paramita? There has to be a reason why both are called compassion. And are distinguished yet again from something like Dana Paramita.

    I am not sure it is all that complex, it simply seems to be progressed, so on the one hand, there is Inner Bliss arising, and, on the other, sentient beings are being benefitted by one's presence. The prophecy for Queen Srimala's Buddhahood in 20,000 eons says:

    Any sentient being born in that Buddha land will surpass the Paranirmitavasavartin deities in pleasure; glory of shape and color; splendor in the sense objects of form, sound, odor, smell, tangibles; and ecstasy of that sentient being in all enjoyments.

    It is referring to the sixth plane of Kama Loka. If you surpass them, you have seen through their tricks and increased into the Akanistha. The state of sin in the sixth plane is receiving Objects of Desire Offered by Others. You don't have to bother to want whatever you want, since it is being given to you.

    So although she was an instant Buddhist genius, in terms of doctrine and ability, the Karuna and roots of goodness necessary from there to Buddhahood take a very long time.

    Upaya is a Paramita, which may have certain characteristics of its own, but it also has meaning as the scale of practice overall.


    Upāya (उपाय, “means”) refers to the “process of various experiences through which the Sādhaka has to pass before the deity is realised and visualised”.—The Guhyasamāja (chapter 18) calls this process Upāya (means) which is recognised as of four kinds.

    The four upāyas are:—

    Sevā (worship),
    Upasādhana,
    Sādhana,
    Mahāsādhana.

    Sevā (worship) is again sub-divided into two, namely, Sāmānya (ordinary) and Uttama (excellent). Of these two, the Sāmānya-sevā consists of four Vajras: first, the conception of Śūnyatā; second, its transformation into the germ-syllable; third, its evolution in the form of a deity, and the fourth, the external representation of the deity.

    In the Uttamasevā (excellent worship), Yoga with its six limbs should be employed. These six limbs are:

    Pratyāhāra,
    Dhyāna,
    Prāṇāyāma,
    Dhāraṇā,
    Anusmṛti,
    Samādhi.

    Shiva tantra also has a similar Sadanga Yoga, but the order is shuffled. This one here as far as I know is identical in all sadhanas.

    So the basic Seva is like the Kriya-Chara process where we can iterate an extremely specific process of how Buddhism defines Divinity. Higher Seva is intended to progress into Sadhana or spiritual practice which has degrees that are something like Near Approach, Realization, Actualization. This is its own "genre", which is not to say you can't weave at a loom, or fletch arrows, or pound sesame seeds while doing Mahamudra. It is specific to itself, for instance the way mandalas work.

    The Six Limbs could almost be said to be three pairs.

    My personality has always included in its daily routine, a type of cleansing of the senses. I have to shut everything off and relax. This is not "quite" ostensible spiritual practice, but it is the basic approach of the first "pair" which is like a "level" of practice.

    Pratyahara is an ancient term for subjugation of the mind and senses. It means Control of Food, and is a withdrawal from sense-objects, and esoterically is like the Puranic description:

    1a) Pratyāhāra (प्रत्याहार).—The stage of the dissolution or withdrawal of creation on the commencement of pralaya at the end of Kali; then the primordial spirit (avyakta) swallows that which is manifest (vyakta) waters swallow the gandha quality of the earth thus plunging the earth in waters; then the rasa quality of the waters gets merged in fire which spreads in all directions; the rūpa quality of fire is in turn eaten away by wind; this permeates all the ten directions, both above and below; the sparśa quality of wind is swallowed by ākāśā; the śabda (sound) quality of which is overwhelmed by bhūta and other gross elements; the great souls absorb these (mahā); seven Prakṛtis one covering the other.

    And so it covers the spectrum from quiet time to, oh, say, universal annihilation--meditation is perhaps stronger than the first, and weaker than the second, but we could say Yoga begins around sense withdrawal and the deprivation of discursive mind.


    In one sense, a Dhyana is a verse spoken during a Puja that describes a deity's form.

    Dhyana is also a Paramita--the fifth, right before Prajna; it is "the Dhyanas" as from the Pali Canon; and in Guhyasamaja, Dhyāna (meditation) is explained as the conception of the five desired objects through the five Dhyāni Buddhas, namely, Vairocana, Ratnasambhava, Amitābha, Amoghasiddhi and Akṣobhya.

    This Dhyāna is again subdivided into five kinds:

    Vitarka (cogitation),
    Vicāra (thinking),
    Priti (pleasure),
    Sukha (happiness),
    Ekāgratā (concentration).

    And so here you already have something that means meditation, that is suspiciously synonymous to samadhi. It includes the pre- or non-tantric "Concentrations". It adds what is eventually called Bliss.

    So on its own, Pratyahara and Dhyana already constitute what could be called "a meditation session". Concentration could be towards any object, a tattva symbol such as a Kasina disk, or a Dharma subject, etc.

    The next part however is different because it is Yoga and it is intended to manipulate the subtle body, starting with Pranayama, and then, Dharana is mostly the stability or non-decay of the condition induced by Pranayama.

    At this point, is there such a thing as a Yoga deity, yes. Guru Yoga is like that. This is where the "system of Taras" or Sadhanamala deities shines.

    This would be the phase heavily emphasized by Jnanapada, Anadagarbha, Bu-ston, Yogi Chen, and for example Traktung Rinpoche's Generation Phase at over three hundred pages. They feel that a person with reasonable aptitude can "get" Kriya--Charya without too much trouble, and here, where it starts heating up a little bit, you need a lot more work, rather than the most difficult or presumably Completion Stage material.


    Sadhana, or Deity or Ista Devata or Yidam Yoga, consists of:


    Source: archive.org: The Indian Buddhist Iconography

    1) Sādhana (साधन) refers to psychic exercises in the form of visualization and intense meditation.—One of the chief topics dealt with in Vajrayāna is the deity. These deities are a product of psychic exercises of the most subtle character, and are visualized by the worshipper in the course of intense meditation. These psychic exercises are called the Sādhanas. [...] The Tantrics who were the advocates of psychic culture, by persistent efforts through mental exercises, used to obtain super-normal powers which were known as Siddhis. Those who gained such Siddhis were called Siddhas, and the process through which they obtained Siddha is called Sādhana.

    The Sādhana or the process prescribed for attaining the different Siddhis forms the bulk of the Tantric literature of both the Buddhists and the Hindus. [...] The Buddhists had a special literature called the Sādhanas and they were always written in Sanskrit by many of the well known Tantric authors and the Mahāsiddhas. This literature is now almost lost in original Sanskrit, but fortunately for us some collections of Sādhanas are still extant. These collections were given the names of Sādhanamālā and Sādhanasamuccaya. [...] The Sādhana in all cases is prescribed for the realisation of some God or Goddess according to a fixed procedure laid therein.

    2) Sādhana (साधन) refers to the third of the four upāyas (“means”) through which the Sādhaka has to pass before the deity is realised and visualised according to the Guhyasamāja chapter 18.

    Source: Shambala Publications: Tibetan Buddhism

    Sādhana Skt.; derived from sādh, “to arrive at the goal” and meaning roughly “means to completion or perfection.” In Vajrayāna Buddhism, a term for a particular type of liturgi­cal text and the meditation practices presented in it. Sādhana texts describe in a detailed fash­ion deities to be experienced as spiritual reali­ties and the entire process from graphic visual­ization of them to dissolving them into formless meditation. Performing this type of religious practice, which is central to Tibetan Buddhism, requires empowerment and consecration by the master for practice connected with the particular deity involved. Part of this is trans­mission of the mantra associated with the deity.

    Source: academia.edu: A Collection of Tantric Ritual Texts

    Sādhana (साधन) is a genre of Tantric literature describing the stages of the yogic practices of various Tantric deities to be visualized and invoked to perform the divine actions.

    General definition (in Buddhism)

    Source: McGill University: He dances, she shakes: The possessed mood of nonduality in Buddhist tantric sex

    A sādhana literally translates as a “means of attainment” and is the way that tantric practitioners can become their chosen deities (istadevata). Sādhanas provide step-by-step guidelines to imagine oneself as a buddha, inside and out, at both a visual and aesthetic level. Instructions are given in both prose and poetic form, and the poems are often attributed to highly realized authors and establish the ritual and aesthetic mood through reiterating the goals of practice.

    So all that also "is" Upaya, of the kind which begets Samadhi, which itself is an evolute of Dhyana, which is close to saying that development of Dhyana Paramita begets Prajna Paramita.

    In simple terms, one could perhaps say the Dhyana is Sutra level, and Pranayama is Tapas which is Tantra level, so the indicated class of Samadhi of Six Limb Yoga must be employing tantric development.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote It is referring to the sixth plane of Kama Loka. If you surpass them, you have seen through their tricks and increased into the Akanistha. The state of sin in the sixth plane is receiving Objects of Desire Offered by Others. You don't have to bother to want whatever you want, since it is being given to you.
    I spent nearly three nights at "the fulcrum", the fattened intersection of spaces of dissolve, decay, and decompose, the three jewels, which maybe apropos as Objects of Desire Offered by Others. The night before last, I spent hours there, and became quite -- not sure which word to choose -- either "proficient" or "comfortable" or "stagnant" waiting at no being for hours on end, with certain parts of this triumvirate accessible all day long and rumblings of others constantly working in the background. At the end of the night before last, I was roundly chewed out for that sense of accomplishment, and for the ritual attachment it was bringing.

    So last night, the sum total of the infinities there was relegated to its domain, and I was, by means of an extremely strenuous physical position and a lot of pushing and working from them, lit on "fire" from the base of the inside of my skull to the crown and then the crown consumed and straight/wavy lines -- hairs apparently -- filled that space to upwards above my head, shooting upwards. Afterward, it seemed logical to "understand" finally why so many are described as having hair that stands straight upward.

    I'm mentioning this because it seems so interesting a coincidence that you are mentioning a trap by objects of desire given by others. Although I'm not sure a three-fold infinity is what they meant by such an object.

    Quote The Sādhana or the process prescribed for attaining the different Siddhis forms the bulk of the Tantric literature of both the Buddhists and the Hindus. [...] The Buddhists had a special literature called the Sādhanas and they were always written in Sanskrit by many of the well known Tantric authors and the Mahāsiddhas. This literature is now almost lost in original Sanskrit, but fortunately for us some collections of Sādhanas are still extant. These collections were given the names of Sādhanamālā and Sādhanasamuccaya. [...] The Sādhana in all cases is prescribed for the realisation of some God or Goddess according to a fixed procedure laid therein.
    I think Alexandra David-Neel describes this as having to earn a living.
    Quote A sādhana literally translates as a “means of attainment” and is the way that tantric practitioners can become their chosen deities (istadevata). Sādhanas provide step-by-step guidelines to imagine oneself as a buddha, inside and out, at both a visual and aesthetic level. Instructions are given in both prose and poetic form, and the poems are often attributed to highly realized authors and establish the ritual and aesthetic mood through reiterating the goals of practice.

    So all that also "is" Upaya, of the kind which begets Samadhi, which itself is an evolute of Dhyana, which is close to saying that development of Dhyana Paramita begets Prajna Paramita.
    This is another place where the shaking is backwards from the meditation.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    So last night, the sum total of the infinities there was relegated to its domain, and I was, by means of an extremely strenuous physical position and a lot of pushing and working from them, lit on "fire" from the base of the inside of my skull to the crown and then the crown consumed and straight/wavy lines -- hairs apparently -- filled that space to upwards above my head, shooting upwards. Afterward, it seemed logical to "understand" finally why so many are described as having hair that stands straight upward.

    I'm mentioning this because it seems so interesting a coincidence that you are mentioning a trap by objects of desire given by others. Although I'm not sure a three-fold infinity is what they meant by such an object.
    Haha, no, that is not what they meant.

    They meant I don't have to even think about liking apples since a steady stream of devotees bring me apples. It is lazy beyond lazy. In the fifth sub-plane, you have to think of the apple, and it appears. So these upper planes are like the ultimate in temptation.

    I have to shed the appetite for apples, they are not needed in the subtle body, it is an attachment to an earthly experience.

    The reverse of this is in the sadhanas as Offerings, i. e., we give away the best things we can come up with, to someone who does not need it.

    By doing the Offerings, eventually the senses such as Taste are quelled, and I won't sit around in the subtle body getting hungry. Usually a person has to train in this a lot, and I guess it could only be called "significant progress" that would reveal any type of Jewel or Triple Jewel in the core of the head/throat which is a lot more powerful and interesting than mundane consciousness.

    A desire to see or have this is not like an earthly desire, it is like calling Kurukulla "the one everyone wants", or that all beings' wishes are really Wishes for Enlightenment, and so on. It is really some kind of divine desire, that lacks Grasping, and lacks the collation of thoughtforms driven by Samsara Skandha.

    Yes, shaking is a bit backwards from sadhana, although the Signs still sound accurate. This one is often called Flameswept Hair, or Ratna Ketu. If I followed the progression, most Vajrayoginis or Varahis do not have it, but Bharati does.

    According to her, Big Hair should become accompanied by The Vessel, or i. e. descent of nectar back to the navel or dantian around where this whole thing started.

    That of course sounds opposite to fire bursting through one's crown aperture.

    This upwards energy can form the Vajra Danda, which is simply an extension of the Avadhut, and it can accumulate colorful mists and so forth.

    When that thing is stable and able to connect with Higher Yoni Triangle, and the Vessel is full of Mercury, then, boom, you have attained Sahaja, which can reach the Para Sunya beyond the Triangle. Many schools lump sahaja in with samadhi and make everything about the same, but, in Buddhism, Sahaja has this extremely specific meaning.

    It is all an advancement of non-dual Vajrasattva.

    Vajrasattva progresses from Prajna--Upaya to Prajna--Karuna. Even from a Zen blog, we can get close to the right idea:

    Ideally speaking, Karuna is the natural expression of Prajna. In deep samadhi one can realize that there is no separation between self and other, and that this whole world is one single organic and vividly alive body. That enlightening insight (Prajna) comes with a total identification with all the different parts of this body – however unlikely some might seem to be! – and a great urge to take good care them (Karuna). We start to feel more responsible for everyone’s well-being.

    It also expresses a few things as working like "manuals of Karuna", such as the Paramitas.This is always the case, plus, they have tantric interpretations, there is the whole Mahakarunika cycle, and Lotus Family seems particularly crucial for Speech Isolation, energy of the throat, and so forth, significant to the whole Pranayama and Sambhogakaya process.

    For identification with unlikely parts of the body, the Tantras do have a complex Nyasa or system of placement of the Pithas, but, few of them are identical. One thing that gets my attention is the "repetition" of Khandaroha, since she is a Dakini of the Central Lotus, but, she is also always repeated around the lower centers and sometimes thought of as "the Bulb".

    In the body, the lower Pithas (or those related to Evacuative Wind) are usually named for Pretapuri, "City of the Dead", said by Naro to be at the India--Nepal border; another being Himalaya; and Grhadeva.

    Vajra Rosary is the most basic here and does not involve yoginis; it just says:

    You know the Himalaya
    As the crotch,
    The sign [male or female organ]
    As Grihadeva,
    The rectum
    As Pretapuri


    With Varahi, Pretapurī is to be contemplated as situated in the reproductive organs, ruled by Cakravega and Mahabala.

    Vajradaka Tantra associates Pretapuri with Patalavasini, "a woman living underground".

    In the Abhidhānottarottaratantra there is the Ḍāka deity named Vajraḍāka standing in the center of the districts named Pretapurī (Pretādhivāsinī), Gṛhadevatā, Saurāṣṭra and Suvarṇadvīpa.

    In Dakarnava, Pretapuri is one of the sixty-four channels in the Nirmana Chakra.

    With Varahi, Himalaya is also in the genitals, but ruled by Khaganana and Virupaksha.

    Himalaya is part of the Vak Chakra, associated with the Ḍākinī named Bhūcarī (‘a woman going on the ground’), according to the 9th-centruy Vajraḍākatantra.

    According to the Vajraḍākavivṛti, the districts Himagiri (Himālaya), Kāńcī, Devīkoṭa and Rāmeśvara are associated with the family deity of Saṃcālinī; while in the Abhidhānottarottaratantra there is the Ḍāka deity named Padmaḍāka standing in the center of the districts named Kaliṅga, Kāńcī, Lampāka and Himālaya (Himagiri).

    Both Varahi and Vajradaka seem to place minor Khandaroha in Grhadeva; the latter pairs her with Ratnavajra.

    Our tantras have failed to say what the subtle body "is"; instead, they have similar systems of "what it does". The Six Yogas are always the same, but, the Pithas are not.

    Most of them indicate two types of sexual chakras, one at the root, the other at the tip of the organ. The area is mainly associated with Patala Vasini or Bhucari, hence, subterranean and Sister class.

    It would be correct to say this center is totally ignored at first, and, everything I have traced so far to the arising of Bharati has nothing to do with it.

    Somewhere along the line, you do get Yoga deities who have a syllable at their Secret Place. So there is at least something that intervenes before a large twenty-four point Nyasa.
    Last edited by shaberon; 21st October 2020 at 20:45.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Haha, no, that is not what they meant.

    They meant I don't have to even think about liking apples since a steady stream of devotees bring me apples. It is lazy beyond lazy. In the fifth sub-plane, you have to think of the apple, and it appears. So these upper planes are like the ultimate in temptation.

    I have to shed the appetite for apples, they are not needed in the subtle body, it is an attachment to an earthly experience.
    This is indeed not the same thing, but the pull of proceeding no further and "resting on my accomplishments" because the scene before me was infinite was quite seductive, and I was chastised for spending an entire night there and "drifting towards routine".
    Quote Yes, shaking is a bit backwards from sadhana, although the Signs still sound accurate. This one is often called Flameswept Hair, or Ratna Ketu. If I followed the progression, most Vajrayoginis or Varahis do not have it, but Bharati does.

    According to her, Big Hair should become accompanied by The Vessel, or i. e. descent of nectar back to the navel or dantian around where this whole thing started.

    That of course sounds opposite to fire bursting through one's crown aperture.

    This upwards energy can form the Vajra Danda, which is simply an extension of the Avadhut, and it can accumulate colorful mists and so forth.
    All of this sounds accurate for what is happening, but the mists last night were like colorful mist-curtains and when they suddenly pulled back because I turned away from the fulcrum to protect my eyes, my whole body "dizzied" with a strong pulse of foreboding that pretty much shook me to the core. It was the same kind of dizziness/wind/pulse/foreboding as the death time but without the cold.

    Quote When that thing is stable and able to connect with...
    not, I guess, yet.

    Quote Vajrasattva progresses from Prajna--Upaya to Prajna--Karuna. Even from a Zen blog, we can get close to the right idea:

    Ideally speaking, Karuna is the natural expression of Prajna. In deep samadhi one can realize that there is no separation between self and other, and that this whole world is one single organic and vividly alive body. That enlightening insight (Prajna) comes with a total identification with all the different parts of this body – however unlikely some might seem to be! – and a great urge to take good care them (Karuna). We start to feel more responsible for everyone’s well-being.
    I read the Zen blog, it is much closer to the Karuna --> Caritas type of Karuna/compassion. It is possible that what happened last night was in anticipation from having to do something of that form which was not going to be easy today. One of those "I'm going to have to make you suffer a little today so you won't suffer a lot later" days.

    Quote For identification with unlikely parts of the body, the Tantras do have a complex Nyasa or system of placement of the Pithas, but, few of them are identical. One thing that gets my attention is the "repetition" of Khandaroha, since she is a Dakini of the Central Lotus, but, she is also always repeated around the lower centers and sometimes thought of as "the Bulb".

    In the body, the lower Pithas (or those related to Evacuative Wind) are usually named for Pretapuri, "City of the Dead", said by Naro to be at the India--Nepal border; another being Himalaya; and Grhadeva.

    Vajra Rosary is the most basic here and does not involve yoginis; it just says:

    You know the Himalaya
    As the crotch,
    The sign [male or female organ]
    As Grihadeva,
    The rectum
    As Pretapuri


    With Varahi, Pretapurī is to be contemplated as situated in the reproductive organs, ruled by Cakravega and Mahabala.
    This is where things really feel backwards between shaking and these texts: This stuff was more of the 101 part of shaking, it is a late and completion stage in these texts. But some of the other things are things developed off of this in shaking.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    A couple more thoughts came up, somewhat repetitive, and partly because we cannot search for a post but only a thread.

    It is rather intriguing that a Dakini would press "upaya" as a means of "flitting" through another being's consciousness or aura.

    Many of us have probably thought about such things, like why doesn't Mandarava "flit" me, or why doesn't anyone do it, or how could I tell if they did.

    At times in the past, I have thought someone did something like this, and all I can say is that it has usually seemed like an Ayurvedic adept possibly Hindu, or else a Medicine Buddha or Parnasabari follower. I don't know.

    I do know that one of the few things Vajrasattva ever told me was that the Bagalamukhi weapon I used is about the same thing as a Kilaya.

    The difference is that a Kilaya pegs something in place; so it functions like a prison.

    The weapon I used was incredibly effective, but lacked any form of restraint.

    Therefor I am in a time which has become highly defensive. I would be a poor target for flitting, because, if I sense something unbidden, I am likely to attack it, and if this goes through an edged weapon, it could be very damaging.

    Until this is resolved, I am stuck between the options of an eventual worse conflict with what I call Suicide Demon, or, the transmutation of the host so they are no longer receptive.

    On the other hand, I can definitely be "approached", i. e. if someone uses the signs or mantras I am familiar with, then of course I am going to relax and be reasonable.

    And so if "Upaya--Flitting" is something I would have to call Personal Instruction, if we look at its more general application as Upaya Paramita, this, at least, gives a sense about what might be the difference between trying to get any recognition whatsoever from a being mired in samsara or mundane consciousness, versus someone who is a little more sensitive who might even retaliate unless you supply the "password".

    It simultaneously speaks to me, in a slightly different way, about how to get someone to voluntarily re-organize their mind in order to banish a demon of this caliber. To me, it is simple, since the Dharma does that, but, I cannot just press it on anyone. They have to decide for themselves that there is, at least, a better alternative than living in an avalanche of psychic garbage, and they have to ask for it in some way, and then I can respond with either the Dharma itself, or, at least, its close approximation cloaked in everyday experiences.

    If we have something to give, someone has to ask/invite/Hook us.



    When we look at something like a "simultaneous fusion of systems", we have a way, for example, to ascribe the Paramitas to a Six Family Wheel.

    In order to figure it out, you can, of course, start with a single element, can think of Three Families, or five, but it is perhaps desirable to manifest a basis of six to eight things at once.

    We have already written it up for a system of Seven in a way that matches the traditional Paramitas up to Upaya:


    Discipline.......Ground....................Paramit a...........Dharani

    Citta.............Pramudita (Vajrasattva)...Dana........Ratnolka
    Pariskara........Vimala (Vairocana)......Sila...........Usnisavijaya
    Karma...........Prabhakari (Ratna)..........Ksanti.........Marici
    Upapatthi.......Arcismati (Amitabha).......Virya.........Parnasabari
    Rddhi............Sudurjaya (Akshobya).....Dhyana........Janguli
    Adimukti..........Abhi-mukhi (Amoghasiddhi)..Prajna...Ananta-mukhi
    Pranidhana...................Durangama............ .Upaya.............Cunda


    Since we are incorporating Namasangiti, you could also add its unique "introductory" Paramita to obtain eight elements. The Sarvadurgati grouping seemed to make Pranidhana Paramita seventh, and so we adjusted that way--here, it is the Discipline associated with Upaya Paramita.

    In most presentations, Prajna Paramita would be the highest given, which corresponds to the last of the normal Families. After this, Acala is a "divider", before the highest Paramitas are represented by Dakinis beginning with Lama. This makes them fumble out of order, whereas it is probably agreeable that Rupini would be last, that usually makes Dakini first.

    We discussed Pranidhana, and here, it is a Discipline (inner), which at the next stage, becomes a Paramita (expressed). If called a Paramita, then, this must be Upaya as seen by others. Pranidhana Natha are the Agnishwattas, Formlessness, teaching of Venus--Human Guru. In Buddhism, Pranidhana also pertains to Vow (similar to Samvara). Vow is supposed to become represented by behavior (Samaya). Upholding Vow by manifesting it, therefor is also quite close to a "Discipline" of Pranidhana evolving to a "Perfection", a display of it.



    In Avatamsaka Sutra, Upaya Paramita is the capacity to select and apply suitable teachings, practices, or methods in order to help others on the path to enlightenment, according to place, time, and individual circumstance, desha-kala-patra,

    It, of course, also has to have an inner basis.

    mudra & mantra are related to the paramita of skillful means (Skt. upāya kauśala pāramitā)

    The tantric physiological stage is:

    7. Meditative stabilization is the means for retaining the drops while engaged with the three mudrās, namely, the action mudrā, primordial wisdom mudrā, and the empty form mahā- mudrā.

    [karma mudra, jnana mudra, mahamudra]

    Namasangiti's goddesses who correspond with Upaya Paramita are:

    The Discipline or Mastery is Pranidhana. The Ground or Bhumi is called Durangama, "Far Going". The dharani used is Cunda.

    The goddesses in all Four Families have as their forms:

    Upaya Paramita is green like the Priyangu flower and holds in her left hand the Vajra on a yellow lotus. Pranidhana Vasita is yellow in colour and holds in her left hand the blue lotus. Durangama is green like the sky and holds in her left hand the Visvavajra (double thunderbolt) on a Visvapadma (double conventional lotus). Cunda is white in colour and holds the rosary from which a Kamandalu [water pitcher] is suspended.

    Here Cunda has been emanated in Amoghasiddhi Family and is using her rare Initiaion form with the Sacred Flask. And so if this is Yoga then it is likely intended to accomplish this first since her next Amoghasiddhi emanation is wrathful in union with Mahabala. Cunda Dharani Masters Pranidhana "Unceasing Devotion". In general application, the mantra is held to remove karmic seeds. Pranidhana also pertains to the Sacrifice Offering of Karmic Fruit or, i. e., fruit of one's actions are also burned by Agni to the deity, and this type of renunciation of the result of work is considered essential, usually, for that type of Red Aura on Cunda and Vajra Tara, letting go of everything I did is essential for the stability of Bodhisattva degree Wisdom.

    Cunda's mantra is so simple and never grows, that it makes sense to show it as a small inner seed of Pranidhana, which seems to be happening here.

    The teaching of Karuna is that it simultaneously develops Jnanagni or non-attachment.

    When we look at groups of Paramitas, or higher levels of them, these are also related to the Three Natures:

    Penetration of the Dharmadhatu is with the three subtle minds: first of which (incomparable) opened by the first Five Bhumis, second (unfathomable) by the Seventh, and the third (inconceivable) is in the irreversible bhumis eight and up.

    Incomparable mind: First, joyful through giving (Pramudhita from dana); Second, purity through morality (Vimala from sila), Third, luminous through forbearance (Prabhakari from ksanti), Fourth, radiant through striving (Arcismati from virya), Fifth is mediation tthrough meditation (Sudurjaya from dhyana). Unfathomable mind: Sxth is Facing through insight (Abhimukhi through prajna), Seventh is Far-going through great means (Durangama through upaya-kausalya). Inconceivable mind: Eighth is Motionless through strength (Acala from bala), Ninth is good-minded through aspiration (Sudhamati from pranidhana), Tenth is cloud of doctrine through wisdom (Dharma-megha from jnana).



    The very basic iterations of Vajrasattva winds up with a final goddess who is akin to the fifth and sixth planes of Kama Loka and Objects of Desire:

    Yoga includes Atma Tattva and Deva Tattva from Kriya-Charya, followed by Mandala [Thirty-seven points of its own unique nature]. Together, Atma and Deva Tattvas make Tattva Devata, the first or reality god. The Six Gods of Kriya-Charya are intended as the Abhisambodhis plus Manifest Buddha. This is akin to increasing Vajrasattva from Purification to Prajna-Upaya.

    In Yoga, Paramadya Tantra increases Vajrasattva from Prajna-Upaya to Mahasukha-Unwasted Vajra, or Bliss. This is due to mantra, the throat is Sambhoga chakra. Paramadya's goddesses are Four Activities in a Vajrasattva theme, having Ragavajra or Passion to please Vajrasattva's mind so he will not swerve from the thought of Enlightenment, Joyful Utterance Vajra Kili Kila arouses a pledge to remain attached to mahasukha-unwasted vajra, Vajrasmrti is unshattered by the poisons, Vajra Kameshvari, Queen of Desires, Objects Manifested by Vajrasattva. is Gnosis. This makes the hand symbol, five pronged vajra of Vajradhara.

    And so if he incorporates Bliss, he must be operating more with Karuna, which happens to be more explained by Avalokiteshvara.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    the mists last night were like colorful mist-curtains and when they suddenly pulled back because I turned away from the fulcrum to protect my eyes, my whole body "dizzied" with a strong pulse of foreboding that pretty much shook me to the core. It was the same kind of dizziness/wind/pulse/foreboding as the death time but without the cold.

    Quote When that thing is stable and able to connect with...
    not, I guess, yet.
    So in the example where we allow Kurukulla the role of developing nectar, like a "loop" of the ascending or inbound forces through the Jewel with Indra Jala, reflecting as nectar which is able to ooze down through the throat...she has a beginning, she never really ends but participates in an ongoing alchemy. But primarily she has to do with the throat and head loop.

    Then you have an "advanced" loop which is a little bigger, which in the example of the fiery nature uplifting the crown, it is in Jewel or Ratna Family, this is Vajradakini. As the Maha Sukha Chakra, it is the Four Dakinis. It is also the Usnisa class of deities such as Parasol. It is on a "bigger loop" which goes past the throat, descends past the heart, into the core. The Evacuative or Ratna Wind has reached up to the heart to meet it, and drawn it the rest of the way down. The combination of Ratna Family to the Buddha Family Usnisas sounds a lot like Kaya Vajra, that Jewel Family merges into Buddha Family.

    In this kind of energy level, perhaps the difference is that if you follow the fiery uprising, you will wind up projected out of your body. I have never tried to follow it that way. That may happen if you do not disrupt the Skandhas. They are working something like a hot air balloon, and you are supposed to deflate them. When active, they operate on any and all planes.

    Again, for me, yes, studying the Vajrayana sadhana structure starts a bit backwards. In simple terms, it was not a particularly nice dakini-guided non-dualization of the lower spheres, it was more like a similar Personal Instruction from Death. In my experience of Dissolutions, meaning Ego Death or direct destruction of the Skandhas into the Bardo or Voids, there is such a thing as Tathagatas, or Dhyani Buddhas, in a pale, faces-in-the-clouds kind of way. It seemed more like they were "just there", like monuments or something. I was intrigued by how Buddhism described them as Wisdoms. I did not understand that part.

    Because most everything else in the world refers to Muladhara chakra as important for starting Yoga, I had already done things this way long before hearing of otherwise.

    At the point when I found Inverted Stupa is when it "clicked", or I could see how Buddhism was using its own particular language that flowed into the experience of Four or more Joys, except it sounded like a huge upgrade to my bare-bones maneuvers in figuring out how, the mainly physiological aspect of it, works. Because I know it does, I am able to personally ascertain that if the inner meaning of "this" Vajradakini is followed through to this "Vessel" Bharati, then you do get something utterly different, which is what Buddhists call Sahaja. That is the one that can ascend and get the Voids to dissolve.

    In the sadhana timing, you should be in your deity's Muttering. You have cast a Meru Mandala and so forth and you are Muttering your way into this condition, and the Sahaja is going to rise and try to touch the base of their Divine Stupa. And when it becomes necessary to arise as something, you are going to go Germ Syllable and Hand Symbol and so forth.

    Being that the advanced scriptures tell me that the entire thing gets doubled into a cycle of Sixteen Joys is beyond my ability to express, but I hope to pursue it, someday.

    If you miss, you might wind up in the realm of the Vidyadharas or Apsaras, but you could more easily wind up with Ghosts or something. The Cemetery Yoga Asta Vijnana is there to seal all those doors.

    I understand a Horizontal plane I would call Horizon as situated basically through the ears and center of skull or head, approximately. And so if this is the Ground or Bhumi, it is displaying a type of Fixed Cross on its quadrants, with East being forwards, South is to the right, and so on.

    If you have this quadration and can conceive of it conically triangulated into the crown aperture, you have the four petals or dakinis.

    "The chakras" are in the head, with the ones of the body being reflections or emanations of it.

    These head centers in a Sattvic condition suffused with Akash are able to enter a type of secret conversation with the corresponding caves in the heart.

    That is why we are supposed to boil off the psychological Aggregates in the head, and descend.

    It is a bit like one develops the Great Coronal Dome or Crown Protuberance and it is set on pause for a while, and the descent of bodhichitta is like drawing a bow. I think once you plant the conditions for that Fourth Joy or Sahaja, most of your complexity, balancing, and alignment issues are resolved, and it can pretty easily launch and flow beyond the body like an arrow.

    I would say the Vajradakini-to-Bharati thing is probably large, possibly difficult, taking an indeterminate amount of time, whereas Sahaja is almost automatic, like a coccoon, and could be self-fulfilling in a matter of moments after it starts. At worst, we might say it is lacking in energy to go all the way.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Many of us have probably thought about such things, like why doesn't Mandarava "flit" me, or why doesn't anyone do it, or how could I tell if they did.

    At times in the past, I have thought someone did something like this, and all I can say is that it has usually seemed like an Ayurvedic adept possibly Hindu, or else a Medicine Buddha or Parnasabari follower. I don't know.

    I do know that one of the few things Vajrasattva ever told me was that the Bagalamukhi weapon I used is about the same thing as a Kilaya.

    The difference is that a Kilaya pegs something in place; so it functions like a prison.

    The weapon I used was incredibly effective, but lacked any form of restraint.

    Therefor I am in a time which has become highly defensive. I would be a poor target for flitting, because, if I sense something unbidden, I am likely to attack it, and if this goes through an edged weapon, it could be very damaging.

    Until this is resolved, I am stuck between the options of an eventual worse conflict with what I call Suicide Demon, or, the transmutation of the host so they are no longer receptive.

    On the other hand, I can definitely be "approached", i. e. if someone uses the signs or mantras I am familiar with, then of course I am going to relax and be reasonable.
    I actually sometimes read through your posts and "sleep" on them and read again, I did that with this one. I'm going to offer some possibly disorganized responses to this:

    The first is that when this topic came up in my shaking, I do remember writing in my notes (and here, I think) that I quailed at the thought. The idea of just kind of flitting into and out of someone else's consciousness is kind of repugnant, it seems to violate privacy and all sorts of things. So it turns out that idea is very far from what happens. It is literally a glancing pass through, which causes no or some reaction to a "what just happened" or "that's weird" or "how interesting" feeling, and takes the form of maybe a glint of a reflection that catches the attention or an odd thought or even a shudder or nothing at all. One person seemed to be staring right at me when it happened though, I have no idea how that went, maybe they're clairsentient or something. Again, no idea what it was for them, maybe they even saw Mandarava or something.

    Second thought: Why would you draw weapons on a butterfly? It seems like a very odd idea. It's a butterfly, like the one in Indonesia that flaps its wings and a hurricane forms in the Gulf of Mexico. It took me hours, literally, to find a term for it, I came up with "flitting". They (Mandarava spec.) called it skillful means. Why would you imprison it? Imprison what? A reflection in a window you happened to see?

    Third thought: If the term, "flitting" is an issue I suppose I could change it, but it took me as I say, hours to try to find a word. I went through "sliding" "shifting" "sifting" "tweaking" and tons of others. I chose flitting because it was about the right amount of contact, imagine if you were to feel a single beat of a butterfly's wings against your skin or just the wind from its beat. Tiny. present but sort of defying description on how minimal.

    Fourth thought: You wish it would happen to you? Probably it happens all the time.

    Quote ...this, at least, gives a sense about what might be the difference between trying to get any recognition whatsoever from a being mired in samsara or mundane consciousness, versus someone who is a little more sensitive who might even retaliate unless you supply the "password".
    And how would you retaliate? You would flit them back? As I understand it, someone a little more sensitive sees it as the skillful means that it is and maybe rides it to their own advantage in seeking the path. It has no self in it at all so I'm not sure if there's a "who" to retaliate against.

    Quote To me, it is simple, since the Dharma does that, but, I cannot just press it on anyone. They have to decide for themselves that there is, at least, a better alternative than living in an avalanche of psychic garbage, and they have to ask for it in some way,...
    Mostly likely correct. Depending on what ask means and what press means. Someone who ignores a serendipitous structure of light on whatever they are looking at has not asked and is not pressed.
    Quote If we have something to give, someone has to ask/invite/Hook us.
    If I hang up a flyer on a kiosk, I have given something. If no one chooses to read it, they have not asked. There are huge flows of billions of positrons through your body 24/7, nothing you can do will stop them from invading "your" space. The idea that a flow should remain outside of someone is attached to a sense of solidity. You do not, and never have, controlled the flow of the world past your eyes, or who previously breathed the molecules in the air you take in in a breath.

    Quote If called a Paramita, then, this must be Upaya as seen by others. Pranidhana Natha are the Agnishwattas, Formlessness, teaching of Venus--Human Guru. In Buddhism, Pranidhana also pertains to Vow (similar to Samvara). Vow is supposed to become represented by behavior (Samaya). Upholding Vow by manifesting it, therefor is also quite close to a "Discipline" of Pranidhana evolving to a "Perfection", a display of it.
    This makes perfect sense if the vow in question is the bodhisattva's vow to shepherd sentient beings to enlightenment.

    Quote Pranidhana also pertains to the Sacrifice Offering of Karmic Fruit or, i. e., fruit of one's actions are also burned by Agni to the deity, and this type of renunciation of the result of work is considered essential, usually, for that type of Red Aura on Cunda and Vajra Tara, letting go of everything I did is essential for the stability of Bodhisattva degree Wisdom.
    Is this Red Aura like a glow or like an aureole? Sorry for interrupting but I'm having a lot of color glowings lately and they seem significant.

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  25. Link to Post #433
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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Because most everything else in the world refers to Muladhara chakra as important for starting Yoga, I had already done things this way long before hearing of otherwise.

    At the point when I found Inverted Stupa is when it "clicked", or I could see how Buddhism was using its own particular language that flowed into the experience of Four or more Joys, except it sounded like a huge upgrade to my bare-bones maneuvers in figuring out how, the mainly physiological aspect of it, works. Because I know it does, I am able to personally ascertain that if the inner meaning of "this" Vajradakini is followed through to this "Vessel" Bharati, then you do get something utterly different, which is what Buddhists call Sahaja. That is the one that can ascend and get the Voids to dissolve.
    I can understand how finding out how everything doesn't have to start at Muladhara feels. I was grounded there for the very first few shakings, but then other centers developed and other things, and pretty soon being grounded in a particular place was a convenience for the type of bliss being generated, and not much else.

    Quote Again, for me, yes, studying the Vajrayana sadhana structure starts a bit backwards. In simple terms, it was not a particularly nice dakini-guided non-dualization of the lower spheres, it was more like a similar Personal Instruction from Death. In my experience of Dissolutions, meaning Ego Death or direct destruction of the Skandhas into the Bardo or Voids, there is such a thing as Tathagatas, or Dhyani Buddhas, in a pale, faces-in-the-clouds kind of way. It seemed more like they were "just there", like monuments or something. I was intrigued by how Buddhism described them as Wisdoms. I did not understand that part.
    In the same way that there seem to be kinds of bliss in my shakings, there are kinds of "Ego Death". All of them have a sort of decision at the beginning, there is a volition that has to be made towards not being there. Some are not inherently unpleasant. Some of them are quite blissful. And then there are a couple that are pure unadulterated terror.

    Quote At worst, we might say it is lacking in energy to go all the way.
    This is perhaps as essential a thing in shaking as mindfulness or quiet would be in sitting meditation. There is either the energy, or one must generate the energy, or there is a failure for lack of energy.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    And how would you retaliate? You would flit them back? As I understand it, someone a little more sensitive sees it as the skillful means that it is and maybe rides it to their own advantage in seeking the path. It has no self in it at all so I'm not sure if there's a "who" to retaliate against.

    I will have to spend some more time in getting to all of this, but, I don't want make it seem like I am generally hostile. I am in some kind of trial which challenges Upeksha, which is why I am glad to find this principle from the beginning Brahma Vihara to the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment. It is scathing.

    The karma that is going in is rather ferocious, it is something that has already taken lives.

    I try to reason that I am not really a Bodhisattva, but, it is said, we are not given any tests we cannot pass.

    So the point is I am extra edgy, do not always see clearly, and have plenty of disturbing emotions karmically-delivered. It is a bit like walking through a bad neighborhood where you have already been mugged a few times.

    And so I would want people to be able to understand that, as relatively "bad" as that condition is, if I am able to repair it properly, that is a Karuna. All the blindness and anguish will become converted into some new kind of power.

    On a personal basis, I have sapped the type of subconscious upwelling of these things, so it would not be a problem to restore my own aura. At that point it would become more like a Nirmanakaya and generally attractive to Dharma beings.

    Being that there are weapons and then there are weapons, I will say that by choice I looked at the Red Flower Arrow, dithered with it conceptually a few times, and within the past few days it appeared and moved in a self-arisen manner which felt appropriate to the mind and aura. My preference is to get through it that way.

    In the meantime I am honestly trying to admit to being damaged and to show that a major part of this stuff is to "fix broken people".

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Being that there are weapons and then there are weapons, I will say that by choice I looked at the Red Flower Arrow, dithered with it conceptually a few times, and within the past few days it appeared and moved in a self-arisen manner which felt appropriate to the mind and aura. My preference is to get through it that way.
    If this is Kurukulla's red utpala flower arrow, it's point is called the beginning of wisdom. In my shaking, she usually calls attention to her lower two arms (hook and noose), and her breasts. She controls the jewel at my throat because she controls magic, and the other name for the net is Mayajala. Since the jewel is the place through which interpenetration is seen, it is also probably the beginning of wisdom.

    Quote In the meantime I am honestly trying to admit to being damaged and to show that a major part of this stuff is to "fix broken people".
    So perhaps it's

    {wisdom, creation, skillful means} <-- prajna <-- upaya <-- karuna --> caritas --> { love, humanity, charity}

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