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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Yes, Niguma, sister of Naro, is also Guhya Jnana Dakini.

    And so if you are more intricately into this stuff, then White Heruka is Reversed by White Vajrayogini:








    By being reversed it is talking about withdrawal of the senses, which, historically has often been called Kalachakra Yoga, but is really just Sadanga or Six Limb Yoga. That is why Kalachakra is not an original teaching. It is another application. The term and teaching for Six Limb Yoga permeates the Buddhist Yoga corpus. And so that is another thing we would say "makes" it Buddhism, in fact, it is practically a reversal of the Eight Limb Patanjali system. That one begins with Pranayama or breathing exercises. In Buddhism, Pranayama is a middle stage that means "restraint" (yama) of the winds (prana) coupled with mantra.

    So, there is simply a White or Sita Vajrayogini.

    There is also Sukhasiddhi.

    There is a White Naro Khecari, White Vajravarahi, White Vajradakini.

    In describing these things as energy levels, or beings, or anything, it could perhaps be said the Yogini is the Guru of the Dakini.

    So in the disciples' training it is generating "a" Heruka which could eventually interface with "a" Dakini or Yogini. That is almost incomprehensible to most people, and so if you can do it, this is advanced.

    Maya Jala is from the same Yoga class as Dakini Jala but is more related to Manjushri Namasangiti.

    The throat can be considered related to Indra because the entire sensory apparatus is said to join in a point in the Khecari center in the soft palate. That is the "proper" use of what "was" Form in a basic tantra centered on Vairocana. It is Indra who is also the Chief of the Heaven of Thirty-three or the second plane of Kama Loka above the Four Kings. The tantric processes are something like gaining all of Indra's weapons and armor and transcending him to Varuna.

    Half red, half white is an accepted form for the Bindu of the Heart which in the Transference done in spiritual sadhana joins the deity or Yidam attracted by the real Heruka.

    And so you may be at a point where you are able to expand the Void chakra above the head, to which, Jnana Dakini says:

    The crown center is the only permissible point of Transference.

    If you leave via the mouth there is at least a chance you wind up in the Sages' realm, but any other way makes one an animal, ghost, etc.

    It is just a different system, Heruka as Blood Drinker presents the Wrathful Deities in a system mostly used in the Nyingma lineages. The word Heruka may instead be broken down to interpretations such as Path and Fruit, but most importantly it means the Complete unit formed by Generation Stage. Its evolution is something like:

    Dakini Jala

    Jnana Dakini with Yogambara

    Buddha Dakini with Mahamaya

    Sarva Buddha Dakini (Cinnamasta)

    Cinnamasta is Tri-kaya Vajrayogini, i. e., means one has mastered all of her aspects. Most of what we have about Cinnamasta is from Pabonkha (through Lama Yeshe and most others). However Pabonkha got it from the Sakya. So what we mean by Heruka Yoga is mostly found in Sakya and Kagyu. It "is" a system of Cinnamasta, more closely related to the "original", Laksminkara, sister of Indrabhuti.

    The big Heruka has over 900 deities in Dakarnava, "Ocean of Dakas", male equivalent of Dakini. So it is about as vast as Kalachakra but proceeds directly from the same Heruka pantheon.

    The main underlying driver to the Heruka system is Seven Syllable Avalokiteshvara, which is mantricly identical, is Heruka and Chakrasamvara. But this is also to reckon with the Wrathful aspect. If I want to say "wrathful" then it will be Krodha, or Vignantaka, or a few other terms besides Heruka. What he is doing is harnessing Dakinis of Six Families and all together they are the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment. The Jewels are the Path or the mandatory condition for Enlightenment. White Vajradakini is among these, or, rather, is the most powerful.

    Dakini, linguistically, was originally an insult, same as all the low-caste women like Chandali who are the consorts of the Mahasiddhas. But the tantra is harnessing increasingly powerful demons up to the devil. So they may be dual natured, Dakinis can cause all manner of problems, and a Teevra Devata such as Cinnamasta or Pratyangira can easily kill you. That is why we want to be careful and not just start trying Pabonkha's rituals because they are fairly easy to find.

    Because you have the Three Chakras, then you have Body/Speech/Mind, or Three Families, or basis of the Tri-kaya. The dakini in the core of the body is usually red. Going back to the Sarvadurgati mandalas, the three are easily seen at the top left as Yellow Buddha Body/Navel, Red Amitayus Throat, White Vajrapani Mind. We call it Mind but it means the Heart. In Buddhism, Bodhi Mind means the Heart, and in most instances, Vajra Family lives there.

    So if you mean a white dakini at the retinue center at the navel. it is perhaps a bit unusual. What we would have if we followed Samvarodaya is Bandhuka Orange Vairocani. The orange color comes from Amrita or Nectar of Immortality. Sometimes Guhya Jnana Dakini is orange, and it is sometimes found in Long Life Trinity or Amitayus. Amrita is really "the thing" that I am promoting and/or trying to work with. This Vairocani is not a relative of Buddha Vairocana, but is a form of Durga/Katyayani/Vimala.


    The more scriptural one, Jnana Dakini, arises with Yogambara in Chatur Pitha tantra. This means Four Chakras, and so a fourth Family is needed, i. e. Jewel Family. They are not a very obvious "thing", but have to do with the generation of Amrita and its flow to the crown.

    Jnana Dakini is part wrathful because she has the cemeteries--and if you look close enough, she has a different Quintessence in each one:






    So she is handling in some way, eight combinations of life winds. The thing that is asked for Completion Stage, is, do you have precise control of prana? And that is what those shifting quintessences are showing.

    When a Dakini has her Staff, it is a sign of accomplishment; this is her Body-less consort. So although Jnana Dakini appears single here, Yogambara is secretly there as her staff.
    Last edited by shaberon; 3rd July 2020 at 07:18.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    In the Kalachakra, the “clear light body” is called “empty body”.

    It’s different from the “illusory body” of Guhyasamaja and other tantras attempting to achieve the illusory body.
    As Shaberon said, it relies on unification of purified pranas- the ten winds- ( chi) based on mind principle or whatever we could describe as pure mental focus.

    Therefor it’s of different quality that illusory body manifested through energy practice in either Father or Mother tantras.

    There’s a reason why Kalachakra is so complicated apart from it being essentially Time-Space physics and window to another space time( Kala is Time and Chakra/Vishvamata is Space).
    As Einstein would say, there’s no time without space and vice versa. That’s how complicated are definitions of time-space parameters.
    Even today’s advanced maths still still keeps writing their equations and definitions for “time-spaces”.

    His Holiness Dalailama already discussed the topic with several prominent physicists and astrophysicists or tried to. He is all excited about discovering this hyper space physics coded into ancient teachings.

    So yes the Kalachakra requires lots (and prolonged time) of focused concentration.

    It’s a sequence and holistic pattern - quite like some of today’s microchips.

    The teaching repeats numerous times that the Mandala (knowledge or vision) is NOT a collection of particles or components and does not have “energy essence” as we know of.
    Neither can it be attained by either meditation or non-meditation.

    The Mandala only manifests as direct and spontaneous vision or knowledge.

    The lengthy recitation of 722 deities who represent Avatars of past aeons and their respective times of human history induces the “real time sequence”.
    That relates to all the elements of your human body as transformed by millions of years of evolution epochs.

    But this is done only once a year during big ceremonies and in preparation and conclusion to it, sometimes years apart if circumstances aren’t conducive.
    1 day of Kalachakra equals 12 human years.
    It’s also approximate time of orbit of Jupiter, the planet.

    Most daily practice in Kalachakra tradition is based on the Mind Mandala of Kalachakra that contains only 32 Buddhas with their consorts.

    The way you visualize this strictly depends on dispositions of each disciple.
    If there are 30 monks in the temple, each will have completely different inner approach depending on their mind and energy.

    But altogether, it’s a sequence that by trained focus and visualization helps to manifest the Mandala and eventually, “empty body of clear light” that is pure mental body.

    For those who aren’t completely new to the practice, even the use of painted “supports” of Kalachakra is then discouraged.

    It does not “look like” the picture.


    The nearest similar modern term to describe it would be something like live holographic body.

    But it does not “descend” or “ascend” anywhere, it only manifests from within you- more precisely from the “heart drop” containing mixture of all purified energies.

    You see, even holographic technologies have a live predecessors.


    Theoretically speaking, the same body or Mandala can become visible to others for short time, either in clear sunlight, in the twilight or complete darkness.
    Night time and darkness are one of the best times to practice this undisturbed.


    From holistic perspective and another basket I would add that one of the major problems of our times and era of industrialization, electromagnetics and computers, WiFi, 4G, 5G and so forth is that we are very low on Chi,
    both us and nature that means our food,
    compared to ancients.
    Very few healers who live in nature are able to preserve their Chi intact.

    So no matter what practice we do, the results may never be so “dazzling” and prove themselves the same way as in days of old.


    🙏🌟🙏


    My little Minds.com page but I’m not updating it too regularly:

    https://www.minds.com/manjuvajra/


    You can find some more mandalas there ..

    🙏
    Last edited by Agape; 3rd July 2020 at 12:50.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    In the Kalachakra, the “clear light body” is called “empty body”.

    It’s different from the “illusory body” of Guhyasamaja and other tantras attempting to achieve the illusory body.
    As Shaberon said, it relies on unification of purified pranas- the ten winds- ( chi) based on mind principle or whatever we could describe as pure mental focus.

    Therefor it’s of different quality that illusory body manifested through energy practice in either Father or Mother tantras.


    Yes that is exactly right.

    And so also in the system of Taras it is perfectly plain:

    The unified pranas especially from the Heart upwards are Vajradhatvishvari: Vajra Dhatu Ishvari.

    The first Body-less or Empty Niche is Prajnaparamita or the textual deity that at least in Kagyu is transmitted in the basic preliminary meditations or Ngondro.

    The way Tara works is that:

    Prajnaparamita is becoming Vajradhatvishvari by appropriating Marici and radiating light.

    And so the esoteric version of the Paramitas which are the same Bodhisattva Path as in all Mahayana Buddhism have the enlightened intent of a pranic process that is beyond Illusory Body.

    The Indian Taras are in Sadhanamala which could almost be called The Book of Marici. Whereas Marici is seen in almost any system of Taras and is also honored by the Samurai, they have only a few bits about her and she is not particularly prominent.

    Sadhanamala contains no less than sixteen Maricis which convey the same inner meaning as in Kalachakra but the difference is they are Yoga Deities.

    And what this means is that it is accessible to outsider trainees. So for instance when you get Prajnaparamita, part of the meaning is to study and explore the system. And then you are able to visualize deities in what is called a Yoga fashion, meaning Front Facing, like you are having a conversation with someone.

    The strongest technique you are supposed to use is called Pride of the Deity, which means their lotus seat is on top of your head. So that is what I do with Vajrasattva. Yes, it will do something beneficial to the beyond-the-body chakra without necessarily "activating" it.

    Then if you follow the Yoga teaching, it says the things you may not do are either self-generate yourself as a deity, or visualize them having intercourse.

    If you want to greet it in some basic way, mostly around their seed syllable and simple mantras, you can do this. And then so if you have Manjushri or Tara, they both support a full Yoga system.

    I personally have bonded with Tara almost thirty years ago, so we have a sort of communion. I have tried to punish Manjushri to force him to be wrong or irrelevant in some way, and, he bites back. Manjushri as the founder of Nepal received Chakrasamvara revelation directly from Guhyeshvari. And so I have scrutinized his system and it is congruent with the teachings because it is probably the oldest one.

    Probably the most explanatory example of Tara is what I call the big Ekajati from Bhutan, in an attempt to portray Taras from Sadhanamala by the Drukpa Kagyu:







    There are only two unique goddesses which are White Cunda with her Begging Bowl, and Green Janguli with her Serpent Hood.

    The rest of them are Ekajati and Marici. And so it becomes obvious that Marici is a hypostasis of Vajravarahi, and, she becomes Marici Vajradhatvishvari. And so that completely coheres to the fundamental statement that defines the goddess or shakti, etc., as a type of Yoga progression, based from Prajnaparamita.

    And so that shows something as to why I see Janguli as something of a capacitor that takes all the charge I can stuff from the outer path, particularly, in how it is like she is standing for the whole Sarvadurgati, and she is my best Yidam or Meditational Deity to guide me to the enlightened side of it.

    She is a Tara who directly attached to Prajnaparamita who is Gold on top of our Kagyu Refuge Tree based on Guru Vajradhara and Vajrasattva:







    And so that is the Ngondro or preliminaries or outer form, to which, you are able to attach Manjushri or Tara.

    This system works almost completely esoterically by following the inner meaning; Tara, particularly, can develop the majority of it as a Peaceful Bodhisattva.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Thanks, Open Minded Dude, I have actually looked at some of his stuff about a year ago. One of the reasons I didn't think the clear body was an astral one is because it is always in me, unlike an astral body which goes places. And astral bodies always seem described as very close to the original.
    Yes, but he also describes the so-called 'etheric body' or 'etheric double' (iirc) which is very close to the physical body or even kind of integrated in it. He observed it very often in OOBE state (so he claims at least) and states that the etheric body itself then produces the astral body that serves as a kind of 'drone' to be really out and about.

    Not saying all of this is true but it's his theory and I find it might have value for consideration.

    I myself had etheric projections where I did not get far from my body, so this would confirm it, I know this also from other projectors and their accounts in other forums on AP. In an etheric body 'projection' everything is 'heavier' as it is not made for 'projection' and you do not get far away. It is only the 'energetic overlay' and connection between the physical and astral and higher (mental etc.) bodies.

    I also believe that Sylvan Muldoon in his famous book 'The Projection of the Astral Body' described them when he said he produced knocking sounds on walls or so with his 'astral' body.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Shaberon, so many thanks for your excellent input.

    I admire your great scholarship 🙏

    There has to be some free space where I could possibly disclose and discuss
    my true perspective on all of the above in future.

    I do have yet completely different perspective on the symbolism, its essence and its meaning. But keeping it “top secret” as intended, for now.

    Also, there is a reason I protect myself from the female energy and sexual symbolism, that is absolute distance.
    It has to be that way.

    There are medical reasons and for the subtleties of my long term practice, I can do start bleeding from anywhere on spot when exposed to this and breaking down emotionally( how surprising).
    That is I need to protect myself from myself.

    Guess I’m horrid😢 feeling that way.




    Happy Independence Day 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
    Last edited by Agape; 3rd July 2020 at 23:38.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote There’s much in Tibetan Buddhism and any “special teachings” that needs to be approached with cautions. I’m saying that as “old student” of some 26 years and there is nothing more precious than snippet of personal experiences.

    Consider that, for any “yidam” ( Sanskrit: Ishtadevata = preferred deity) practice you ought to receive private initiation from Vajra master.
    In days of old, students including monastics, even great scholars like Naropa, had to wait years before they received initiation to Mandala and Deity practice,
    they had to offer themselves and all they had to their master.

    The original masters were Mahasiddhas who had spontaneous visions of mandalas of deities and received direct guidance from them.
    Some of us are that way even if we are not quite Mahasiddhas( accomplished beings) quite yet. I’ve had many different visions of deities and mandalas that guided me on the way, without need for further explanation and sometimes I found the names and details of those only years later.

    But in gist, most of the original teachings and mandalas come from great and direct visions. They were not put together by scholars of either religion as people often think about it with analytical minds.
    Thank you for this post, Agape. I have saved the video and will watch it when I have the time, I have seen accounts of these gatherings, you had said you were at this one, so I will watch it to answer many questions.

    About the above lines that you wrote, they bring up a question that has been nagging me since the beginning of the Dakinis visiting my shaking well over a year ago. Does this mean I should seek some kind of initiation? On the one hand, I kind of feel like if it was wrong to get this instruction during "trance" states from these beings, they would not be giving it. On the other hand, the teachers and initiates from these disciplines all say it is wrong to practice without an initiation. What I'm doing isn't maybe part of that practice, but the names and some of the attributes are the same.

    As I had said previously, I did a fair amount of study about Khotan. A text from there dated 4th to 5th century has Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana existing as choices made suitable to the personality of the student or monk in training. The attribute of Vajrayana was that it offered Buddhahood in one lifetime. So things have changed. (The other tidbit from then was that Hinayana and Mahayana differed over the interpretation of rules about eating meat.)

    What you said about the treatment of nuns in Tibet is also very well said. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Thanks for the explanations, shaberon. Some of these names are familiar. I have other points which are important, some of which are where the chakras are located, some not quite. But these three are the only mandalas I have, all of them either infinite in space or in time or in complexity. There is a sequence of pairs at my crown, the inside of my head, my throat, my subclavicular point, my heart, my solar plexus, my dantian, and then three points which generate bliss at my perineum, my solar plexus, and my subclavicular.

    My actual meditation, my standing, as I had said to Agape, I do breathing of various types (pranayama), not so much when I'm shaking, when I'm shaking, the things that matter is the generation and flow of bliss, the ability to listen (as in internal arts, Ting - 聼), the ability to relinquish self - dissolve, and the ability to remain on a fulcrum. Those are mostly my own terms, I don't know what they are called, except that I'm fairly sure my use of bliss is fairly standard, and my use of 'listen' is exact, as in push-hands. So I have no idea what skills or lack of them I have with pranayama, except that I can do dozens of different patterns of fire or bellows breaths, but do not do them purely voluntarily (my abdomen trembles or beats I can if I want control whether it will stop or start, but not how it beats).

    It is very interesting what you say about the throat, because Vairocana is sometimes interchangeable with Samantabhadra, I perceive Samantabhadra-Samantabhadri or Vairocana-Samantabhadri if you will at my throat, in conjoined form - yab yum - quite often, almost every night for long periods when my throat is going to be an important part of the shaking. It is complex in those shakings, it has the jewel which centers the mandala/net, it has a stream flowing through it, and it has those two conjoined there.

    Ekajati is much different in my shakings than in your description (probably not surprising), she has forms, one of which is Nairatmya, in which she is fierce and empty darkness. She never has one tooth like in thangkas, and sometimes she is even dressed in more Greek looking garb and holding a staff. Like I had said, some of these Dakinis in my shakings don't match their depictions. In my shakings, she frequently gets things that need to flow flowing, but can sometimes fill me with a lot of empty space (as in stars, galaxies sized empty space).

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Okay, thanks. I can certainly take another look. My clear body would not be able to be projected, it is me when it is perceived, and my physical body moves along with it.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Open Minded Dude (here)

    Yes, but he also describes the so-called 'etheric body' or 'etheric double' (iirc) which is very close to the physical body or even kind of integrated in it. He observed it very often in OOBE state (so he claims at least) and states that the etheric body itself then produces the astral body that serves as a kind of 'drone' to be really out and about.
    In original Theosophy, the physically-integrated thing is the astral body or Linga Sarira.

    The thoughtform-body is often called Mayavi Rupa. It exists while it is in use. Otherwise it is a Kama Rupa like a cloud of thoughtforms. When projected it takes the regular appearance of the person, but can be changed. This is called "the highest body". The "higher self" is not a body, is a breath.

    So in Buddhist practice, it is like Dream and Illusory Body. Mayavi Rupa means Illusory Body.

    It chiefly relates to increase of Sambhoga Kaya.

    This leads to/stabilizes one to experience the Dharma Kaya, which is Formless, but the dharma realm has, so to speak, existent mental elements which may be realized as Svabhavika Kaya, Vajra Kaya, etc.

    The full Dakarnava instructions allow for seven skandhas and seven kayas, which implies Seven Buddha Families, which we might assert is also the statement of Cunda.

    Cunda Tara appears in some of the same early scripture as Avalokiteshvara, and she says:

    Namo saptanam samyak sambuddha kotinam tadyatha

    Om Cale Cule Cundi Svaha


    The regular interpretation here has been that "Cunda is surrounded by seven million Buddhas", but, linguistically, it may also simply mean she is with Seven Buddha Families.

    She is possibly the first known Tara, and she is still used in most of the Tibetan systems, although they are unable to translate her--her name is a mystery. They just write Tsunda.

    If they expand the meaning of a name then they usually change it such as Marici <--> Ozer Chanma.

    But, Cunda is primordial or among the first, and is allowed to carry a meaning which would remain in Dakarnava or the most advanced part of this system. And for some reason the Drukpa have selected her as a significant piece to be represented in the Sadhanamala image above.

    Another that Tibet does not change the name of, is Bhrkuti. However, it is like Heruka, they make her mean Angry Frown and her images are made that way. But her name really just means "knitting of the brows". This could be the glance of concentration, or, it could just mean a vibration in the ajna center. And then when we look at Indian sadhanas and images inspired by Prajnaparamita Sutra, Bhrkuti is very serene and happy.

    Esoterically Bhrkuti is considered something like a preacher who inhabits the base slopes of Mt. Potalaka which is a sacred mountain of Avalokiteshvara and Tara, as a Nirmana Kaya. And then above her is a Sambhoga Kaya form, Maha Sri Tara. And so this mountain works like Tara's magic mountain and can support celestial palace, etc.

    For Agape, most of the commentary for the subtle winds, etc., is contained in Vajra Mala or Vajra Rosary. And of course everyone is unique and there are things I will not print either. The real stabilizer is Acala (who may be in Buddha Family) or Vajra Family as a whole. Acala is Not Moved and Akshobya is Not Disturbed. Iron Mountain Chain. Indra's Invincible Armor. The literal interpretation of Mantra is Manas (mind) plus Tra (protect).

    Tra is also the main syllable of Jewel Family and their main function is to Protect the Crown Center while manifesting Six Qualities or Families Equally.

    Without some good protection, the forces and deities involved can simply eat one's soul. I have had a fair few of those and so I would have to agree that the wrathful and protective aspects are important.

    The Armor Deities are just about the most powerful thing I would attempt to use in a kind of sub-tantric practice. It is not quite a form, it is mainly the deities' syllables on Moon Cushions, which armor six chakras. So the system will sequentially use one, two, three, four chakras, but it protects more. All of Yoga stops at Four Chakras for the purposes of Suksma or Subtle Yoga. The base of the spine is not even involved until full Yoganiruttara Tantra such as Vajra Kilaya.

    It is impossible to remove oneself from female energy because it is just power and if you do nothing, you are still running at about twelve watts. One is something like a lightbulb in the infra-red spectrum. Tara has multiple forms that can be used in Completion Stage which are still non-sexualized yoga deities. Same for Manjushri.

    So on the big Ekajati above, you can see something else about Janguli, she has Fancy Pants. This means she is in Sambhoga Kaya. She is Tara because Tara usually sits like that, with one foot out. So she must be a pretty close energetic parallel to Maha Sri Tara. It is just that Maha Sri is a basic form. Maha Sri is Green Tara with Marici and Ekajati. So this exposition of Sadhanamala with Green Janguli is like a detailed expansion of the same (original) Mt. Potalaka of India, and, the (ported) Mt. Potalaka in Tibet, Green Tara with Marici and Ekajati, under magnification.

    Janguli cures Naga Diseases or Snake Poisons. Nagas, psychically, being a kingdom in the human aura, which "holds the Prajnaparamita text", i. e., purveys the teaching as somewhat of a mystery, revealed by purification in the Eight Cemeteries. The Nagas are like cemetery deities. When they are pleased, they "produce rain", i. e. a flow of Bodhi Mind and Nectar, but, if disturbed, they bring poison and floods and water sickness. Janguli is about curing water sickness like in Ayurveda it is the damp disease caused by Ignorance.

    But when Janguli "looks around", there are all sorts of Ekajati, who must have some dakini energy because she is dancing. Ekajati is crowned by Akshobya. She must have a bit of Guhya Jnana Dakini which is Sword Dakini. Janguli has become a White Snake in her hair.

    And if we think, realistically, what it means is I must have died a gruesome death many times and then transmigrated and lived in nightmares from Ekajati. But she was just responding to the things I made in life. Not really her fault. If I do not improve my condition, she is prepared to be an eternal slaughterhouse. But if I humble myself and ask nicely, then, her weapons are superb for slicing away anything in me that isn't helping.

    You have to get Ekajati the Queen of Space to Pacify the Mamos or you will definitely regret any Ego Death experience. But that just means you are also going to regret actually dying. There's no way out.

    The truth in Kali Yug is that anything we hate is as much a part of the One Life as we are.

    Vajra Family is the axis of Hatred and they may be called Dvesa or Rage Family. When we understand a Family we may also call it by its opposing sin. The esoteric word for Hatred is Aversion. And so Vajra Family is that type of mystery which mostly stands behind the darkness of everything we react adversely to. It does mean "crystal" or like diamond of ultimate hardness; it is also "to feather an arrow" and means subtle. Vajra Yana means a basket of subtle teachings. Every tantric item is made of Vajra. Vajra Ground, Vajra Fence, and so on.

    And we are looking at Laughing Ekajati.

    Prajnaparamita and Janguli are in Vajra Family. Vajrasattva and Vajradhara are esoteric hypostases of Vajra Family. Vajrapani is the Bodhisattva of Vajra Family.

    A common outer Tara such as Eight Fears Tara is frequently the remedy to identifiable mental and emotional trouble, after all, that is what led me to her. With a more detailed look, Vajra Family practice, generally speaking, is what cultivates stability and resolve. And this is really the Alpha and Omega of practice. Since the basic Abode of a Roaming Brahman is the same as the Hindu version:

    Metta (love)
    Karuna (compassion)
    Mudita (joy)
    Upekka (resolve)

    You will find Upekka re-iterated three or four times in thirty-seven point enlightenment--but if I follow the Yoga Path to the explanatory sadhana of Seven Syllable Avalokiteshvara, then, the Seventh Jewel of Enlightenment is:

    Upekka (Vajra Dakini)

    So if the first Tara--Cunda--tells us there is a seventh element, then, by unfolding all the parts that match, we realize that enlightenment of the seventh branch is only to be found by Upekka. In other words, most of the technical occult details are stuffed underneath it in the system of Six, and the highest expression is for the Six to operate Equally while being Permanently Undisturbed.

    It is like a day one teaching carried to infinity.

    Buddha's Enlightenment is usually told as being witnessed by Bhu Devi "Earth Goddess", which is not very unusual, since in Indian culture a "knock on earth" is binding. However, at Ratnagiri, there is a second witness, Aparajita (Invincible). Because Ratnagiri is the Tara system, then, Tara is pretty blatantly saying something about indestructibility.

    One should take whatever is needed from Tara or Acala or Vajra Family to vanquish inner disturbances.

    I am not a Bodhisattva, I struggle with the same kinds of things, which are eager for homicide and suicide, and it is just a handful of straws from this system that get me by. Understanding what little of Yoga that I do is about the only thing or reason that prevents or even quells major problems.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    Ekajati is much different in my shakings than in your description (probably not surprising), she has forms, one of which is Nairatmya, in which she is fierce and empty darkness. She never has one tooth like in thangkas, and sometimes she is even dressed in more Greek looking garb and holding a staff. Like I had said, some of these Dakinis in my shakings don't match their depictions. In my shakings, she frequently gets things that need to flow flowing, but can sometimes fill me with a lot of empty space (as in stars, galaxies sized empty space).
    Yes, of course. Buddhism is not saying "this is how things are". It says "training x = result y".

    That is why I cannot say another school is wrong or something from Hinduism doesn't work.

    You are in some kind of advanced samadhi that most people cannot attain. So I cannot say that a white dakini as retinue center at the navel is not happening or is heretical or anything like that. Dakini gernerally implies standing in warrior stance, dancing, or flying. Their main distinctive item as per Niguma is a Drum. To most people they could be a bit loud and rude. So my question about the way you mean Dakini, is it in one of those energy levels?

    Nairatma is not Ekajati.

    There has been a lot of confusion around blue Vajra Family goddesses.

    This Ekajati is a Yoga view of something much more bizarre from Vajra Panjara, which is the explanatory tantra to Hevajra.

    Nairatma is not a Yoga deity although looks like one. She has no existence prior to Hevajra Tantra. The real Nairatma is not a form, is Ego Death. Hevajra Tantra is a branch of the Heruka Yoga, but it has no preliminaries, it works "from" Heruka and not "to" it, is only a Completion Stage. Nairatma is in Sadhanamala and requires a full Abhisambodhi Sequence.

    Blue Vajrayogini is Mahacina Tara. And so what this means is Maha (greater) Cina (China) which in the past has been construed as various places; but it a Tibetan import from Assam in East India; which is part of the Kirat, Naga, or Maha Cina culture, which is Mongolian, the diaspora of Manjushri, and if you look at Manjushri's Wu Tai Shan mountain, then, the northwest direction is historically Mongolian. So in this sense, we are not just rooted in the origin of Nepal itself, but in an ancient migration having many other kingdoms.

    Tara's actions in East India tell us two things: the replacement of blood sacrifice by symbolic; and Kama Devi whose Pitha is in Assam. Kama having to do with love and bliss, which may perhaps seem a bit veiled by Mahacina Tara.

    Hariti sometimes has a Greek look, relics from the Taxila or western area or around Pakistan definitely absorbed recognizable stylings from Greek art.



    The blue dakini we have a hard time speaking of is ultimately the Lunar Nerve. If we think of Tara, Marici, and Ekajati, it is the same as Cinnamasta, the Three Main Nerves.

    Prana Yama means to constrain the winds into these nerves, and, ultimately, the Central, only. That is what makes Vajradhatvishvari. So Yoga Path and Pranayama means those mantras and visualizations which move the winds from the body surface into the 84,000 minor nerve branches into the bigger and bigger branches into the main chakra system, and then operating it.



    Guhya Jnana Dakini "has no use for empowerments and the like". Almost every other lineage does. Almost every deity has a type of rule of progression. However Manjushri and Tara have open doors. So for those of us who are in the wilderness without the luxury of being initiated and trained by gurus, it remains the case that there are some deities one is able to train in, and, that also, there is a Dakini who defines herself as spontaneously present.

    Jnana Dakini in the lineage transmissions is Sarasvati who is female Manjushri.

    Guhya Jnana Dakini seems a bit different, is heavily involved with Amrita and Generation Stage, and again if we apply the same type of esoteric key, it is related to Lotus Family and continues through the series into Dakarnava.

    Lotus Family governs the throat, and, hence, the opening and flow inside the roof of the mouth. It is Speech and so this is really the second chakra.

    Guhya Jnana is also Sword Dakini, which is also related to Hindu tantras meaning points towards the center. Mahacina may have a Sword.

    At that point we are at the Vajrayogini temples of Nepal. And so this is like the surviving tip of the Indian Buddhist system. Some of it continued to Tibet, but Vajrayogini is rather more specifically Nepalese.

    In Buddhism yes it is best to be initiated to the Sangha however possible. In the case of many of the Mahasiddhas, they were initiated by Yoginis. But if one follows the teaching, Guhya Jnana Dakini may be "intercepted" and used in the Pranayama process of Vajra Muttering. Because that is the actual practice, a better name for it is Muttering, and so if I say mutter a deity, it means doing the Ngondro meditation and adding one or more Yoga deities and muttering them. The only actual breathing technique might be Soft Kumbhaka. You are trying to get the upper and lower winds to "handshake" in the navel or core. Other than that you just mutter.

    It is hard for me to visualize anything much better than a blob of light and Yoga deities still work.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Just making a quick tabulation what the system I am describing is accurate to:



    According to Jamgon Kongtrul, for the Chakrasamvara system, there are five explanatory tantras:

    Samputa (shared with other systems)

    Vajradaka
    Samvarodaya
    Abhidhana
    Yoginisancharya

    David Gray adds Dakarnava and explains that in Nepal, Samvarodaya is more emphasized than Chakrasamvara itself.

    Genesis and Development of Tantra expands on how Vajrayogini--Vajravarahi was propitiated around Nepal and only partially transmitted to Tibet. So for example Elizabeth English's Cinnamasta book is based on the compendium of forty-six rites mentioned there. It also refers to Yogini Jala or i. e. Dakini Jala.

    The shared Samputa system is the system of Vajrasattva derived from Pramadya tantra which, in the overall tantra system, is the reasoning for it being attached to Agni.

    Samvarodaya is a bit different from most Akshobya-based tantra because it is based on Vairocani instead of Vajravarahi.

    Vajra Daka is the explanation of Seven Syllable Avalokiteshvara, which uses the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment such as Vajra Dakini as Upekka.

    And so the Yogini or Dakini Jala is the underlying system of Six Families as explained by Vajrayogini or Jnana Dakini.

    That is why this is a consistent system which would otherwise appear scattered in forgotten archives, or, relegated to Nepal.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote You are in some kind of advanced samadhi that most people cannot attain. So I cannot say that a white dakini as retinue center at the navel is not happening or is heretical or anything like that. Dakini gernerally implies standing in warrior stance, dancing, or flying. Their main distinctive item as per Niguma is a Drum. To most people they could be a bit loud and rude. So my question about the way you mean Dakini, is it in one of those energy levels?
    The White One at my navel is dancing, yes. In the same pose that you see Dakini statues or thangkas, the dance that when Shiva does it as Nataraj is called amandatandava. I am aware, as I had said, that some of them are not classically Dakinis -- Samantabhadri for one. Originally, it seemed that as they identified, they would all be wisdom Dakinis, and there would be five of them in the five colors, but there were some who only show up from that group occasionally, and two who became Dakinis from historical people, etc.

    I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that I am in a state most people cannot attain. I'm willing to accept that maybe it happened to me because I'm suited or because I had a unique preparation, or by chance. But the only thing I did that "most people" don't is follow the shaking when it started, instead of ignoring it and the things that arise in it and waiting for it to go away. However, maybe that was also something I was suited for or something.

    If I catalog all of them, most of them are dancing. Two are flying but usually only one of those shows up. More recently, she has been seated sometimes. One is seated in padmasana. One is dressed in a kind of battle dress with a spear or halberd. One is in constant conjoining, but can also be a snake/dragon climbing a pillar. One is in Sukhasiddhi's pose. One is embracing the ocean. One is the emptiness of space and also blue in a "toga" with a staff, and also dancing (that would be Ekajati). When I feel the yab-yum at my throat, it is as it is portrayed in the thangkas except that it is perceived as Samantabhadri and her consort instead of the other way around -- she is the one there, and she is in union with her consort.

    Quote Nairatma is not Ekajati.

    There has been a lot of confusion around blue Vajra Family goddesses.

    This Ekajati is a Yoga view of something much more bizarre from Vajra Panjara, which is the explanatory tantra to Hevajra.

    Nairatma is not a Yoga deity although looks like one. She has no existence prior to Hevajra Tantra. The real Nairatma is not a form, is Ego Death.
    Not sure what to make of this, unless the Dakinis accept it when I call them the wrong names or something. Your description of Nairatmya is definitely an aspect of this one. But I did notice when you were talking about Cunda etc., above, you referred to "Ekajati the Queen of Space".

    The Dakinis have no problem drawing on other symbolisms, perhaps they just reach into my mind and pick whatever will work best to get the point across. Recently when other symbolisms started showing up in my shakings, they did what the White One did with the taiji symbols and "breathed" into them (I am using that word and used it before because it is the best fit, not because it is accurate, the resultant form is both at one time and seems to alternate like breathing).

    Including using my math and geometry to effect things that don't fit into normal space. They showed me how to shake my scalp by making use of my visualization skills for thinking about higher dimensional surfaces to create this "peeled" version of my head in which the pieces of my scalp were able to dance individually, and so I could do the same shaking my body does only with my scalp and let it penetrate until it found the knot (sometimes deep inside my head) of the migraine and untied it. (The whole training was rather comical, when they told me to get control of my scalp I spent quite a bit of time in front of the mirror trying to wiggle my ears and so forth).
    Last edited by Old Student; 4th July 2020 at 20:03. Reason: misspelling

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Thank you for this post, Agape. I have saved the video and will watch it when I have the time, I have seen accounts of these gatherings, you had said you were at this one, so I will watch it to answer many questions.

    About the above lines that you wrote, they bring up a question that has been nagging me since the beginning of the Dakinis visiting my shaking well over a year ago. Does this mean I should seek some kind of initiation? On the one hand, I kind of feel like if it was wrong to get this instruction during "trance" states from these beings, they would not be giving it. On the other hand, the teachers and initiates from these disciplines all say it is wrong to practice without an initiation. What I'm doing isn't maybe part of that practice, but the names and some of the attributes are the same.

    As I had said previously, I did a fair amount of study about Khotan. A text from there dated 4th to 5th century has Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana existing as choices made suitable to the personality of the student or monk in training. The attribute of Vajrayana was that it offered Buddhahood in one lifetime. So things have changed. (The other tidbit from then was that Hinayana and Mahayana differed over the interpretation of rules about eating meat.)

    What you said about the treatment of nuns in Tibet is also very well said. Thank you.


    Thank you both, Shaberon and Old Student for so much input. Like a good apple plum cake, it always tastes much better the next day 🙏

    From my perspective and teaching/learning style, even one bit of what you said already is very precious and to get further, one needs to contemplate on the chosen, useful to either individual, practical little bits/hints.

    An ounce of practice equals tons of theory🌾

    From what I read here Old Student, you could benefit from these complex lineage teachings along with Shaberon, much further and deeper since you both seem to have detailed visions.

    This is where Vajra Master initiation to particular deity/Bodhisattva and Dakini can help since they not only stabilise your insight but also activate the path of blessing.
    You are right in saying that the non-human entities do not grant empowerment without permission from Vajra Masters(human lineages) who already built firm samaya with them.
    These samayas( vows, secret vows in this case) have to do with adherence to specific precepts, practices and offerings.

    I think it’s almost like seeking permission from your parents before getting married: someone from your “family” of human kind has to agree to it.

    But the case of your detailed visionary experiences makes you almost perfect candidate to seek “proper initiation” from Vajra lineage master.

    How shall that work out “in your part of the world” I don’t know but if there’s even unassuming Tibetan lama running meditation centre nearby, feel free to consult with them. Tibetan lamas have/had the good old habit of sending students from one teacher to another before finding the one you have inner relationship with, at the end but also, it’s customary to go with recommendation to seek blessings.
    It differs slightly from the traditional “Rinzai” approach that’s quite like modern European or American approach of bumping straight to people and confronting them.

    It means going around things at least thrice and inquiring about their whereabouts, style and techniques always helps before seeking initiation.

    On the other hand you may also happen to bump to the old dusted lama sweeping yard who will offer you tea and give you blessings and initiation without calling them such that will be the “true initiation” forever. You just never know.

    But visiting spiritual centres and practising teachers always brings lots of benefit.


    My own visionary experiences have been different and various but much more in the open space. I can always fit to the vast sky of Dhammakaya 😂
    But as a matter of fact and I should not say that ever, they’ve been and worked much better for me than what any traditional teacher ever described or implied

    and my mind has always been “all over the place”. I’ve seen different entities from various epochs of humans history, many star beings, glimpses of life of Buddha Shakyamuni , historical Jesus, Egyptian pharaohs, Dogon priests,
    as few examples. They mostly appeared in livid times of life and signified change, inner empowerment and blessing.
    When it happens I never if seldom talk about it since it would not make sense to anyone else.


    I try to keep to the precepts of the very traditional Hindu and Buddhist empowerment’s I’ve ever received, there are many -and one should carefully study the culture and precepts first before meeting people, in the same manner you study diplomatic protocol - the inner rules in monasteries and those surrounding spiritual teachers are very much same to such protocol actually-
    one of which is not to disclose the names of your personal deities, teachers etc.

    So in one way, practising without initiation is much easier because you’re free of such obligations.

    I know the manner has spoilt in various Western centres that’s why I never participated there neither I taught deity practice in the West unless people were already “in” but then they have their own teachers and commitments so the only thing one can do is give some advice.

    But then, I can always explain the TimeWheel and hyper space physics on Mondays and people go home empowered for the rest of their lifetime 😂


    No matter what, it’s always beautiful to practise without dependence on “someone else”, a system or initiations.

    One of the innermost visions I had, spontaneously after meditating on the “heart lotus”, listening to silence is what I loved to do all of my childhood,
    was completely mind blowing and showed me the last hours of this or some previous lifetime, either. I was just about 18 or 19 at that time.
    I was Native American Indian chieftain, last of his tribe in the live vision, his/her tribe and people perished. I was still quite strong even in old age and climbed on mountain top, watched the sky and horizon of the landscape for long time, made a fireplace and started to sing quietly.
    Then these beings came from pure evening Sky that had many layers of shades and colors still, from the far and deep blue space.
    They looked like you’d look on film negative, with beautiful dark faces and long silver hair. So astonishingly beautiful my heart almost stopped.
    They took me by hands very gently and kindness and love filled the space, the silver light circle surrounding them expanded embracing the the mountains, the continent and finally all the planet.
    They held my hands and we flew merging to the night sky.

    I was seated in meditation and quite “awake” as opposite to sleeping at that point and had to come return to my human timeframe but it was difficult to part with it.

    It’s how I’d like to go really I thought, Yeah.

    In case of “true visions” and initiations and unless one is mentally disturbed, they’re intense enough not to build any emotional attachment to them.
    They appear and do not repeat, give a message and go.


    There had been many problems with people of vulnerable minds who tend either to hallucinate or enhance their visions through drugs and else who get initiations accidentally and see things around them all the time
    and others becoming attached to particular form of vision. There are always some people like that around any spiritual centre and it’s very difficult to help them afterwards.

    So ..follow thine inner guidance is my best advice.

    Your mind is your best friend and your worst enemy,
    and you are your own real teacher for this lifetime.

    🙏🐘🙏
    Last edited by Agape; 5th July 2020 at 03:16.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Shaberon, thanks for your input, specifically for the explanation at the end of one of your long postings. Yes it does make complete sense to me.

    Again I’d say, please be very very cautious with the “system” and organic energies involved in it. Whatever is empowering is also all consuming.

    It’s about Life and Death. The original meaning of human sexuality is not “friendship” as somewhere else in better Universe would be.
    It’s “predatorship” and subjugation of both Male and Female live energy and essence in order to produce new seed- and generation- of advanced life.

    Through endless repetition and proliferation of the “sacred rite” the “cat has got out of the bag”, on this planet, globally, very long ago.
    Just because it’s widespread it does not automatically imply it is also good for you.

    Sure, you may say, if sexuality was not offered there would be more aggression and violence.
    Nowadays , it’s mix of both ruining the best of our social environs and relationships.


    That’s why, be cautious with it. The East does not have better recipes for treating sexuality than the West, in my opinion.

    I’m merely trying to remind you, not to annoy you, that as an advanced entity you do have a choice to say no and stop loathing you live energy to others.

    I am sensitive to bits and I do not do that because it isn’t my nature.

    I dislike the feeling and all the rest about it as you’ve said, it makes me suicidal on instant. I don’t mind the other is Male, female or a teenager.
    If this would happen in real time, I’d have to quit the room and I will never see the same person again unless for keeping greater social distance.

    Yes, some people are “like that” including monks, nuns, and aka tantric practitioners, they can’t hold the energy in normal way anymore.
    They “leak” all the time , are triggered too easily and are themselves very vulnerable.

    If they don’t have protective family or other environment to help them “refocus” they will do just about anything to harass boys and girls in the bushes


    This is not about egos.


    But I would have to apologise not only from this thread , even from the forum,
    if my sensors repeatedly detect I’m triggering any such low feelings and tempting someone to play master-slave themes to feel better.

    I was almost killed down in South America for someone who sincerely could not keep it together and in consequence to it,
    went through another two people suffering from the same malaise.



    It’s not that difficult to take care of where I’m now as normal people do not have need for super egos and indecency, and I’m known here as pure Dharma person for good 3 decades.


    I can sense this isn’t fine with you, period the end.

    Strange as it sounds, I will let the discussion to you and Old Student.



    💫

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    The White One at my navel is dancing, yes. In the same pose that you see Dakini statues or thangkas, the dance that when Shiva does it as Nataraj is called amandatandava. I am aware, as I had said, that some of them are not classically Dakinis -- Samantabhadri for one. Originally, it seemed that as they identified, they would all be wisdom Dakinis, and there would be five of them in the five colors, but there were some who only show up from that group occasionally, and two who became Dakinis from historical people, etc.

    ...If I catalog all of them, most of them are dancing. Two are flying but usually only one of those shows up. More recently, she has been seated sometimes. One is seated in padmasana. One is dressed in a kind of battle dress with a spear or halberd. One is in constant conjoining, but can also be a snake/dragon climbing a pillar. One is in Sukhasiddhi's pose. One is embracing the ocean. One is the emptiness of space and also blue in a "toga" with a staff, and also dancing (that would be Ekajati). When I feel the yab-yum at my throat, it is as it is portrayed in the thangkas except that it is perceived as Samantabhadri and her consort instead of the other way around -- she is the one there, and she is in union with her consort.
    Ok.

    Well there are only two things that I have an "induction" to. One being Prajnaparamita as transmitted by Kagyu, and the other is Shiva Tandava.

    And if you know what that is then you should know "the response of the cosmos to Shiva's vibration is Lasya", i. e. his consort. And then in simple terms: Lasya is the consort of Seven Syllable Avalokiteshvara.

    Padmajala is a Dancing White Avalokiteshvara with eighteen arms used in Nepal and related to the Samputa system.

    Popularly known as Lord of the Dance at Mani Rimdu festival in a simpler form.

    And so as much as Dakini is a widely-known esoteric energy, at some point, the male equivalent or Daka is required. In order to actually do all Six Yogas, the male daka or Vajradaka must become involved.

    The point with Ekajati is that she is a Yoga deity who has continuity into the highest or Yoganiruttara Tantra, in Vajra Panjara, which is based on Maha Kala. Panjara means Tent or Canopy. Like a massive Vajra Sphere or shell, one of the finishing touches to a real mandala.

    So if you have Atma Vidya, that is if you have self-knowledge of the tantric Queen of Space, then yes you are grounded in a state which is beyond most beings. Someone who is eight years old could learn Tara, Marici, and Ekajati, and it might never be anything more than a name attached to a picture with one tooth. The high end of Yoga is realizing her as Queen of Space, and if you have straight knowledge of this, you may be suited for Vajra Panjara.

    And so for example Sadhanamala has around six pieces on her, from a basic Om Ekajatayai Namah up to the massive Viddyujvalakirana Ekajati in the thangka posted previously. There is also White Ekajati. Mahacina is a distinct deity. Nairatma is distinct. There are a freaking ton of Akshobya goddesses, only a few of whom are blue. There is no blue Janguli.

    So you have Dakini awareness of:

    White One at the Navel
    A Flyer
    Padmasana
    Warrior
    Sexualized or Naga
    Sukhasiddhi
    Ocean
    Ekajati with Staff
    Samantabhadri at the Throat

    And so Samantabhadri is in Reversed Union.

    Now what is unusual is that the school that uses that name does not place her in the throat. Guhyagarbha, Bardo Thodol, mainly Nyingma lineages. In the Sarma or New Translation sense she is supposed to be female Vajrasattva or Vajradhara. She is not a dakini, but, a Dhyani Buddha or Prajna.

    And so what happens when you are in that Space, and it utterly stops moving, it melts, or peels.

    The reasoning behind the colors is that Green is seen as a compound. What the deities do is split it into Blue, Yellow, and White. And so if you manifest Blue Ekajati then you must have some kind of Samaya to Vajra Family and the color can, so to speak, be isolated. Once you have Ekajati, the only remaining direction is inwards, with part of the intent being to rip material coloration and display Gnostic Lights.

    With a Staff however that may not be an Ekajati, it may be a Blue Vajrayogini.

    And so her "Queen of Space" role is a type of intersection of different deities; such as amongst the male deities, Acala can do it, or Manjushri, or Vajrapani, etc. It is not a trifle because if you slip out of this you are at the mercy of the Mamos, who have none.

    And so it is possible that you can ask her, look, are you just using Ekajati as a name? Who are you, really? She may say, I am Kungamo! Or, I am Dechen Gyalmo! It could be more specific, meaning someone who is (an) Ekajati because she has the equivalent realization. This is what happened to some of the Mahasiddhas. Dakinis are coy and have an acidic sense of humor. So sometimes they think they find one by a common name, which turns out to be a different one. Sometimes there are big arguments or magical duels. Mahasiddha means they tamed it and manifested stable realization on one of the Bhumis.

    Space or Akash is what is "above" the Kama Loka as depicted by Vajrapani in the Sarvadurgati Mandalas. There is not a higher body than the Mayavi Rupa of Kama Loka; the subtle Kayas are just states of the Dharmakaya, Formless.


    Without really locking horns with--what is Samantabhadri doing there??--I am unable to refer to the Path in any other way than using Lotus Family at the throat as the agent of Dharma Speech. It is like a set of handcuffs. Again it is the same as Sarvadurgati, which uses Amitayus. We would say Celestial Bodhisattva Amitayus--meaning he is only really accessible from the Pure Lands--and World Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, easier to reach from mortal human consciousness.

    Lotus Family Taras are actually very few even though she is said to be the sister or consort of Avalokiteshvara. The few include Cunda and Usnisa Vijaya, who are white.

    Lotus Family is there for a couple of reasons. Dharma speech means mantra and pranayama, as well as being able to speak to whatever pitiful shreds we may comprehend of Buddha Dharma. And also because it is talking about Womb of Compassion or Universe Lotus. It is not Buddhism if it does not express compassion leading to successful compassionate actions. Such is the Third Turning of the Wheel.

    In the tantric sense it is Fire.

    Then in conjunction with the point of focus in the soft palate, it will begin the process of Nectar. This Nectar is what everything ultimately comes to, so far, in order to do the Subtle or Suksma Yoga.

    In reference to the unpeeling of color, the ultimate red Prajna goddess is called Pandara Vasini "robed in white". And so it says that Lotus goddess "is" white and "becomes" red by getting close to the male aspect and Desire. And then if there is such a thing as a white Avalokiteshvara, who dances, and has union, he is yet in a desire-free aspect.

    Samputa Vajrasattva is quite similar to White Padmajala Avalokiteshvara, is also dancing or a daka. So here again, the high end of the Yoga Path meshes to the explanation of the explanatory tantra. And then if it is possible Samantabhadri means a female Samputa Vajrasattva, who has a peculiarly similar Avalokiteshvara, then it may not be remiss to suggest you have some type of Reversed Padmajala at the throat--but not in a Daka form. If it is a simple Heruka, it could be Amitayus or Avalokiteshvara reversed by someone. And again if the deity is responsive, it is fair to ask her something like, are you a Samantabhadri of Lotus Family? Padma Kula or Raga? Look at it this way: their only purpose in existence is going around the universe answering enlightened questions.

    Without further information, it sounds like the pair united at the throat is the most important one, even if she says no, points a finger, and makes a vision of Pandara elsewhere.

    Lotus Family may not be the first family anyone understands or is able to bond with, but, if not, it should be second.



    If we penetrate the Akash, the only way to go is into Voids which are Gnostic Lights which have a spring-like resistance to an individual. White Appearance, Red Increase, Black Near-Attainment. And so white and red are kind of the main subjects of tantra; whereas Ekajati and Vajra Panjara is handling the black void a little differently, something like "hitting it as hard as possible". With the first two it is more like a struggle to maintain lucidity, and the last is more like snapping through so fast it is not noticed. And then to Emerge in Reverse Order is difficult, if you go flying back out of the black, the tendency is to fall to the floor and crash.

    And so Lotus Family has much to do with Bliss and Sambhoga Kaya and being able to stand in any of the Pure Lands or Akanistha, meaning the highest plane of Kama Loka. There you are supposed to find an Abode of a Deity such as a Stupa. This is what we are trying to set up as the stable basis to cross the Akash to the Voids.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    Whatever is empowering is also all consuming.
    That is correct. The first instance of cosmic awakening, the first stir of life in a tiny embryo, is Hunger.

    It will spend eternity destroying forms in order to take energy.

    It is addressed and handled face-to-face in the tantric system.

    I think I get some of the concerns you are trying to express. I don't understand all of it. Yes, overall, in a society where this or these systems are available, not everyone who is into it is a very good representative. I usually expect someone to provoke me about for instance Chogyal Trungpa Rinpoche. First of all he got sucked into the west by Maurice Strong in Colorado. And then most of the traditional Kagyu order was fairly shocked by what happened.

    At the end of the day, we are just talking about a system of samadhi.

    It is self-secret according to one's merit.

    Whatever is "easily triggered" or "vulnerable" does not represent anything from the system of samadhi. The opposite is true, samadhi erases triggers and confers immunity.

    So that is the direction we are going, even though there could be said to be numerous failures at it.

    The whole thing is risky, one of the basic tenets of all Mahayana Buddhism is to ripen my karmic seeds, to accelerate my karma, and this yields a barrage of the worst sorts against one's Upekka. Therefor I asked for whatever happened, most of it sucked, and if Upekka is not tested it may not be real. Like when one of the gurus went to Bhutan. He urinated on the hand-made thangkas, he urinated on Buddha, and so forth, which of course produced a tremendous shock. But a little later on, they began to see what was happening. It was blasphemy against their holy relics so they would gain Upekka.

    My life has been a lot like that, as if humanity's sole purpose is to desecrate everything sacred. And so when we get the sense that all beings have Buddha Nature and want to pursue Enlightenment even though, blinded by ignorance, they deny it, and we want to find a way to encourage it, one of Shantideva's Bodhi Mind enigmas says:

    Because of You, I am going to become a Buddha and Purify Countless Realms.

    Because of Me, You are going to Hell to Endure Endless Agonies.


    That is since I am not perfect, I am not a Buddha, I am not even a Bodhisattva, and so it is possible I could give off something that is harmful to beings. But so far in life I have not only gained Upekka but something living that even animals can sense. So far the aspects of protection and life-giving are very effective.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Having said something about how in Yoga that Lotus Family is a major type of gate, it is actually relatively small.


    In Lotus Family, there is the widely-known exoteric deity Avalokiteshvara, and a dakini which is the one credited with being spontaneously present.

    Are they related?

    Avalokiteshvara has Guhya Jnana Dakini in his heart. Guhya Jnana has Avalokiteshvara in hers.

    They are consorts.

    Guhya Jnana is really the chief of what is called the Four Dakinis: Lama, Khandaroha, Dakini, and Rupini.

    These are either the Four Chakras, or, they are together in the Heart. And so this is really the main retinue in Chakrasamvara and it is also in Hevajra. There is only one dakini that is accessible as the bondable form of the main interior retinue which continues through the tantras.

    Guhya Jnana is usually red, sometimes white, and occasionally orange. With orange, Rechung is one of the main Amitayus lineage transmitters in Tibet, where historical records are missing or perhaps intentionally altered to obscure the yoginis involved.

    This is an excellent view of a Lotus pantheon:






    Center: Jinasagara Avalokiteshvara [or any Yidam or Ista Devata]
    Below: Bernagchen Mahakala [any Protector]
    Left: Hayagriva [any Wrathful deity]
    Above: Siddharajni [any lineage guru]
    Right: Guhya Jnana [any Dakini]

    Siddharajni is someone like Niguma, but much less is known of her. And so the Guhya Jnana material is two things: firstly, her dakini sadhana as transmitted by Taranatha; and also, her partnership with Jinasagara Avalokiteshvara which is a tantric series originated by Siddharajni, and progressed into Rechung, Vajra Vilasini, and Mindroling. The oldest known artifact of this Jinasagara is a 1400s Kagyu piece:








    Guhya Jnana does not progress by name into the major tantras; it is her Four Dakini retinue, which attaches to different central figures.

    And then there is a Dharani goddess who is Padmapani Priya, i. e. "beloved of Avalokiteshvara", who is the Viswa Rupa or Universal Form or 1,000 Arm figure. Therefor if you can garner that much energy, it does have a manifestation.

    The thing works to unfold the Pitha system or the map of the aura in Suksma Yoga, which again is really close to Shiva tantra, with Buddhist modifications.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Thank you for your advice -- really, it is not that easy wondering about such things, and your answer is helpful.

    Quote I was Native American Indian chieftain, last of his tribe in the live vision, his/her tribe and people perished. I was still quite strong even in old age and climbed on mountain top, watched the sky and horizon of the landscape for long time, made a fireplace and started to sing quietly.
    This was also quite helpful, I'm not sure why I worried when some of my shakings weren't purely Buddhist/Daoist/Hindu (all Eastern) but I did. Seems like it isn't a very necessary thing afterall.

    Quote So ..follow thine inner guidance is my best advice.
    Thank you.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I do know that the response to Tandava is Lasya. It was something that they taught when I was learning better control of bliss. I didn't know of a connection to Avalokitashvara. The White One at my navel is female. I'm not really sure why I don't know how many arms she has, I know she has two, but until you talked about it I never really realized I wasn't sure if she had more.

    I have a bunch of complicated places, it's possible my throat is the most complex, but only because the multiple things that go on there are often happening simultaneously. There is a flow there, like a river, that requires attention when I am in certain positions to make sure it is not impeded. There is a jewel there, that is the center of the net, which is the net of illusion. I don't always see that far out into the net, but when something involving interpenetration needs to be taught, I see whole worlds in each jewel, or sometimes pantheons of Buddhas and bodhisattvas singing. And there is a rhythm there that radiates outward to other parts of my body. I don't always see that, when I do it is the rhythm created by Samantabhadri and her consort in union.

    She also is one of the Dakinis who identify/manifest (I do know she isn't technically a Dakini). Her kriya is the one that is like a dragon climbing on a pillar, when it begins to move it is her in conjunction, and lately it has been all about teaching me something about beauty, about the indescribable beauty of her embrace. Her consort is there, but cannot be seen.

    I will try if I am able to ask about Ekajati's name. When she is in the blue toga with the staff (it's a staff like a regal staff, not like a khatvanga), she is presiding over a blue fountain/flow that bubbles up in the center of my head. When she is nothing/darkness/space she is inky black like the blackness of outer space. Sometimes I do perceive space with stars, sometimes she is just a dark-like-nothingness black. When black she is fierce -- she has fangs. Oddly, when something is very upsetting in the shaking she enfolds me and comforts me -- in her fierce aspect -- like she was cuddling a child in her arms. She controls other flows elsewhere in my clear body. The black space comes in several forms: There is a generated flow upward from a joining of the shakings at my pelvic rim and my solar plexus, it is purple-ish and is both liquid and mist, and rises upward in my body like a big cylinder or dome, when it's almost filled me the interior is like a jet shooting up into it and it is that nothingness black and as it grows there are stars and sometimes nebulae. Then there is a pair (in my write ups I usually call it a "micro-pair" in the center front of my head that is thunderclouds around the edges and the inky black of space in the center.

    Obviously the inside of my head can also be complex during shakings, but it isn't like everything I say is in my head is always there in all the shakings, whereas the jewel and the flow and often the yab-yum are all in my throat at the same time. Recently, my abdomen and pelvis have been far more complex than anything else.
    ...

    Avalokitashvara was at my heart, but only once, quite a while ago now.

    ...

    Pandara vasini also only showed up once -- at the very beginning, when the Dakinis seemed to be arraying themselves in the five colors and points. But she has an incarnation - Mandarava?

    She first showed up standing on the top of my heart. She is one of the flying ones, she is often the "organizer" of the teachings, almost everything having to do with rainbows is something she does. She frequently puts a single droplet from a rainbow in my head with the sun shining on it so that I can see that each droplet has all of the rainbow in it and the rainbow has all of the droplets in it, and that the rainbow is nothing and the droplet is tiny. She can also be kind of a tough disciplinarian when I am trying to master something and can't figure it out.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I have looked and am unable to come up with anything that has Reversed Samantabhadri.

    She is usually white and easy to find. However, it is true that in Kagyu, we absorb some of the Nyingma lineages. Here is a view from that which happens to put Samantabhadri in the reverse color or blue:






    What is curious is they call the lower figure Wrathful Samputa Heruka. And so it indicates Heruka according to the meaning of the Samputa, and not the Eight Wrathful Ones of the Nyingma system. We would use this Kagyu interpretation because the lower human gurus are Gampo and Pamo Dru.

    So we get a type of confusion of names and multiple entities about something like Queen of Space or who inhabits the throat center.

    In either the Nyingma or Kagyu, we can agree Samantabhadri must be a female Vajrasattva, although she is not the relative or progressive aspect, she is the clarity or enlightenment of it, a Mother or Buddha, Prajna.

    When at the point of using a system of six elements, the sixth is mind, and we are not really talking about mundane mind but the Dharmadhatu as described in the Sutras.

    The entity that is a type of Bodhisattva "Object of Mind" is called Dharmadhatu Vajra. Just as if we were saying Object of Sight, Object of Taste, and so on up to Dharmadhatu Vajra.

    And so Samantabhadri is more primordial than this, is not a regular mental sense object but known by Gnosis, and so the phrase for enlightenment flowing through Object of Gnosis is:

    Dharma Dhatu Ishvari

    Usually Vairocana is said to possess Dharmadhatu Wisdom, or i. e. his consort is this wisdom. And this is because the patterns always start on Five Buddhas without including Vajrasattva. Then in most cases when he is added, he is placed at the top and considered something like a king. But we have more reason to set him at the beginning as a cause.

    The Dharmadhatu arises, and reveals itself by degrees.

    And then in the tantras it functions as:

    Akasha Dhatu Ishvari

    Vajra Dhatu Ishvari

    Kama Dhatu Ishvari

    Akashadhatvishvari is usually the White Flyer known as Maitri Dakini. So this is a kind of Bright Space related to filling the head with light or ether. The type of vast and dark space as found with Ekajati comes under Kama Dhatvishvari.

    Lotus Family itself does not have that many members, but, we can find that at various stages, it grabs someone from each other Family and stuffs them in its usual location in the West; Amoghapasha does this to Ekajati.

    The Lotus Womb or Womb of Compassion is Karuna Garbha. In tantra, Mahakaruna Garbhodbhava (MKG). This MKG is a main subject of Vairocana Abhisambodhi as Body Mandala--equivalent to Buddha in Sarvadurgati--and Nirmana Chakra.

    Sunyata karuna garbham, or, void is the womb of compassion.

    Further along in the tantras is a section where Dharmadhatu Ishvari is specifically in Lotus Family. And in many cases this has been recorded as Padmajvalini and translated as Fire Lotus. However with further manuscripts we are able to estimate that the "v" is an error and her correct name is Padmajalini or Lotus Net--which reflects on Padmajala Avalokiteshvara.

    In other words, she is a Lotus correspondence to Maya Jala or Dakini Jala.

    And again the Lotus Family is pretty small and does not have many Taras but one of the first ones is:

    Bhrkuti

    There are also Sragdhara and Padmapani Priya. Sragdhara is Lotus Garland and from that we get the situation that most of the Lotus mantras are actually rather public.

    Now as we see that there is Red Avalokiteshvara basically known all over Tibet as the consort of Guhya Dakini, in Nepal, he has additional roles, such as emanating Shiva Pasupati and also the entire Hindu pantheon. And of Red Avalokiteshvara, Matsendrya Nath is an important guru or incarnation. The next important Buddhist Nath is Jalandhara, Net Holder.

    And if we look in Pratima Kosha, which is a non-Buddhist iconography encyclopedia, it tells us:

    Mahamaya Vijayavahini

    The goddess of victory in war in Mahayana
    pantheon. She is regarded as the expansive ver¬
    sion of Tara, with a thousand heads
    and hands; she is described as
    the beloved (priya) of Padma-pani Avalokitesvara.


    This Tara is only found in Nepal. And she has inspiration from Vaisnava and this deals with Red Kunkuma powder, which is similar to male Ash Smearing, and is a consistent component in the ritual.

    And so we would say Guhya Jnana is a major Dakini of the family.

    But if you fiddle with her, there are two important things. She herself is Reversed. That is because she casts her retinue backwards or counter-clockwise. And once you will see this, you will find errors and confusion popping up in the study of tantra, because people do not understand the reversed retinue, and either flip it, or say something mistaken about it.

    But it becomes pretty standard on some of the higher tantric goddesses.

    So it is not only backwards but she is in Lotus Family and they still occupy the West. So it is like a double-strength Lotus retinue, and someone must have gotten kicked out. So now it is double strength moving in the opposite direction from Form.

    The way Suksma Yoga works is by using Amrita Nectar Goddess Varuni who attains or becomes Khandaroha. And she is the most eminent of the Four Dakinis. It is Khandaroha that is used to banish and purify the environment.

    The real meaning of Khandaroha is Generation Stage.

    Therefor Varuni and Khandaroha are the One Source of all of the tantric completions; Dharmodaya or Reality Source or, i. e. Samvarodaya.

    Varuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, who worships Mahamaya Vijayavahini.

    That is basically the "container", the "womb".

    It is still a Soma and Agni ritual. Varuni "is nothing but Soma drinking". However if we do it strictly in an inner sense, we do not need an actual beverage. And in most of the priestly rituals it is just tea. It functions purely according to the operator's ability.

    Again, this is just a Yoga system which develops one process. It barely says the subtle body "is" a given form, in fact it is several forms. It is less important "which" syllable, color, etc. is at a given chakra, because successful practice comes more from the consistency of using a given set. As non-initiates, we are trying to get one basic sample of things that might not be the same forever.

    In my personal experience from doing this Yoga without having a very good guide, I have never observed the kinds of chakra details or evident dakinis as are being discussed. I got something that was more like a physical clairvoyance. Occasionally it could work like x-ray images, but, usually, was more of an auric egg. About all I could really discern was that most healthy people have a yellow or golden layer, and that a spiritually-developed person does get white around the head, which becomes cone-shaped and opalescent. Those things seem pretty consistent in a personal condition which could be said to unleash all the physiological energies without much of the actual Buddhism applied to it.


    Kalachakra says:

    The spiritual hero without beginning or end is Vajrasattva, greatest joy, Totally Excellent Samantabhadra, the identity nature of everything, the lord of Vajrabhrikuti’s ruler.

    So Bhrkuti is used in it like Cunda and Marici. However in Nepal it is Amoghapasha that is the main binder of people or the public towards esotericism. Amoghapasha is a sub-Avalokiteshvara. And so the basic assembly is centered on White Lokeshvara:






    Red Amogapasha is lower left, Hayagriva upper left, and then you have Ekajati and Bhrkuti. So for one thing this makes it fairly plain that Bhrkuti is peaceful unlike the regularly-shown screamy one. This is how she is supposed to be.

    But this "is" an Amogapasha retinue because what it says is that any members may take the middle. And so you can shuffle Amoghapasha to be the principal. When Bhrkuti does it, is the only time she is known to turn green.

    And so here you have the actual traditional way that will relate or interface Ekajati to Lotus Family.

    As a devotee of Tara, I was a little shocked to find out that Bhrkuti is a fundamental, paramount form from the Prajnaparamita system who has a lot more going on than if she is merely chalked up to Angry Frown. I mean, we just mention Guhya Jnana, and it makes this instant lattice on part of which, its misrepresented member, Bhrkuti, is somehow helping Lotus Family harness something you would not expect to find there, Ekajati.

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