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Thread: Communism (and China)

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    I just checked here (https://www.comparitech.com/privacy-security-tools/blockedinchina/), and Project Avalon forum is accessible from mainland China. You can even view this forum from Inner Mongolia.

    Twitter is blocked, Parler is not blocked. YouTube is blocked. www.infowars.com is not blocked, nor is davidicke.com blocked.

    Most of the websites I care about are not blocked by Communist China, but some are. Not as bad as I was expecting but it's still too much censorship for me to consider communism 'working'. I'm with the people Hong Kong on this one
    Yoyoyo,,

    I think Jane is advancing Communism as an economic model, not authoritarianism or totalitarianism. There IS a difference. The Canadian government is currently looking at a universal basic income, as an ongoing response following from the pandemic. It will not allow for any more than a subsistence level of survival and those who want to enjoy a higher standard of living will have to find work...if they can. That's the issue...if they can. With technology and automation eating jobs, and now over 50% of service industry jobs gone (never to return) we have to, as a country, find a humane way to deal with the problems we are facing.

    A person can rightly claim that work is absolutely necessary as it gives our lives meaning and structure. Others can rightfully claim that underpaying jobs in the service industry, (the only expanding part of the economy in the last decade), subtract meaning and tie many up in cycles of despair.

    I see it as a complex but solvable problem, where those with a basic income will be free to do volunteer work and pursue their dreams, outside of the current economic model.

    So, China...no. Russia...no. Higher taxes on the wealthy...yes. It is inevitable unless they want to live in a society where they themselves suffer in other ways due to desperation of the masses.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    I just checked here (https://www.comparitech.com/privacy-security-tools/blockedinchina/), and Project Avalon forum is accessible from mainland China. You can even view this forum from Inner Mongolia.

    Twitter is blocked, Parler is not blocked. YouTube is blocked. www.infowars.com is not blocked, nor is davidicke.com blocked.

    Most of the websites I care about are not blocked by Communist China, but some are. Not as bad as I was expecting but it's still too much censorship for me to consider communism 'working'. I'm with the people Hong Kong on this one
    Yoyoyo,,

    I think Jane is advancing Communism as an economic model, not authoritarianism or totalitarianism. There IS a difference. ...
    I see. I think of one as a welfare state, and the other as communism. Words are good like that

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    there is an opportunity on this thread for some thoughtful people to express what they think about this very powerful model- communism. why waste that? is it more important to silence people who think differently or try to empathise with their views as a learning experience.

    As memories of previous communisms fade in the minds of the young, isnt it extra important to get how people are thinking about this - now? Why? because it will be part of tomorrow.

    Tempted to let fly in a rhetorical pro communist rant just to bring some balance
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 9th July 2020 at 21:23.
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    The system AutumnW describes sounds very similar to what was tried in the UK in the 70s. Huge unemployment, welfare dependence, a total union stranglehold on industry, and social decay. Taxing the wealthy only led to the inevitable brain drain, too. The UK is still paying for that to this day. In short, it was a complete disaster. I remember it, and lived through it. And it was precisely this 'socialist experiment' in Britain that led to the Margaret Thatcher years, beginning with her landslide victory in 1979. The least terrible result you can hope for, and it WILL happen, is a massive right-wing backlash at the end of it. Believe me.

    What is so often touted as bright, new political ideas are not that at all. They're old ideas. They've been tried and tested before, and they failed before.

    I am pretty tired of hearing about the constant left wing/right wing meta-narrative to be honest, because neither side holds the grand, unifying solution for humanity, even when applied with absolute moral precision.

    I don't know how humanity will survive this century, much less progress beyond it. A massive global consciousness 'shift' is the only possibility I can see that has any chance of working. Political shifts, especially radical ones, always end in disaster. 'Radical' is the most terrifying word in the English language. If anyone understands one single thing about 20th century history, they should absolutely know that.

    I think our best chance is to somehow abandon geopolitics and global economics entirely, entirely, and return to purer, more 'natural' living, existing at a smaller scale. A way focused more on cooperation and community. And I don't mean we should all become agrarians and luddites, but adopt a simpler, certainly more spiritual life. How we even begin to achieve that, especially with dark Orwellian forces standing in our way, I have no idea at all.
    Last edited by Mark (Star Mariner); 9th July 2020 at 21:56.
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Star Mariner,

    I hear what you are saying. We had the same dynamics in Canada, in the seventies but...nobody starved.

    We no longer have unions and they won't be coming back unless robots get together and strike.

    In Canada a brain drain is unlikely. The wealthy, should they decide to escape, have to worry about where to escape to, at this point. Countries that opt for status quo as people literally begin to starve, en masse, will not be safe to live in for the wealthy. Kidnappings skyrocket. Crime of all kinds... so no. That won't happen.

    A Communitarian model, based around simpler living in rural yeoman communities, much like the shire in Lord of the Rings, is SO appealing. And part of the work needed there would simply be some very easy agricultural reform (at least here in Canada) where intentional communities based on this model are not regulated out of existence, or not allowed, in the first place.

    We'll get there yet. Old systems have to be overhauled and they will be, because they HAVE to be.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    I just checked here (https://www.comparitech.com/privacy-security-tools/blockedinchina/), and Project Avalon forum is accessible from mainland China. You can even view this forum from Inner Mongolia.

    Twitter is blocked, Parler is not blocked. YouTube is blocked. www.infowars.com is not blocked, nor is davidicke.com blocked.

    Most of the websites I care about are not blocked by Communist China, but some are. Not as bad as I was expecting but it's still too much censorship for me to consider communism 'working'. I'm with the people Hong Kong on this one
    Yoyoyo,,

    I think Jane is advancing Communism as an economic model, not authoritarianism or totalitarianism. There IS a difference. ...
    I see. I think of one as a welfare state, and the other as communism. Words are good like that
    Wordism. Just can't escape it!

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Communism and a free market with a welfare state are totally different things. It's not useful to confuse them to be the same, when the two things have their own distinct problems in each's wake

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)
    seems most here have decided their position anyway.
    Jane, one thing that stands out in many of your posts is the passive (and sometimes active!) aggression. You're unlikely ever to find another platform of open debate where you'll encounter so many genuinely informed and intelligent people who are willing to listen to you and engage.

    Beware of tarring everyone with one simplistic brush. You're in danger of alienating the very people you seem to want to talk with. Does that really make a lot of sense?
    Wow, you have members who call other members dumb or sociopaths and that’s fine and dandy but you call out this 🤦🏻‍♀️

    This isn’t passive aggression, it’s an observation based on the thousands of conversations I’ve read here, and which has been proven correct through this thread.

    I’m not here to convert the masses or educate anyone or preach the word. People need to arrive at their own conclusions. I’ll put forward the odd argument or challenge faulty thinking here and there but I don’t have time, and I don’t think anyone would, to painstakingly address every idea from every person who comments here.

    I’m currently on break. Commenting yesterday took up the majority of my day.

    I’m here to find like minded people, I’m not wasting any more of my time on convincing people individually. I’ve been doing that for 30 years and it has gone exactly nowhere.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Re: Mainstream Sportscasters Waking Up

    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    No!

    Because we recognize the truth of what you say but also see a higher purpose you have yet to experience - or understand.
    And what would that be Ernie?
    This:
    Quote Thanks Gemma, but I’m not giving any more energy to this. It’s up to people to do their own research, the chips will fall where they will, seems most here have decided their position anyway.
    Do you see?
    Who actually has decided what?
    Those that commented thousands of times against communism.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Communism won't make anything better. It probably works quite smoothly on paper as an idealistic, egalitarian, utopian concept, but it does not work. The jury's in, the verdict out, case closed. It doesn't work. Because it ends up going hand-in-hand, EVERY SINGLE TIME it's been attempted, with Totalitarianism. And uncountable deaths. Those were the findings, those were the conclusions, and that was the end of the debate. So what are we even talking about here?

    Communism has proven itself very very very very very comprehensively the most disastrous (and murderous) political/economic model to ever emerge from the bowels of human thought. The death count alone shows that. Even in the mildest sense you have a complete loss of personal freedom, which I personally hold to be sacrosanct. Communism destroys freedom of individuality and freedom of speech by its very definition, and freedom of ownership, freedom of enterprise, and freedom of movement. The list goes on. We were all well-schooled in the mechanics (and horrors) of communism back in the day. My friends and peers learned all about it, because my teachers taught it. Is it taught no longer? Back in the 70s and 80s if one was to proclaim they were a communist, it would be like today saying one was a Nazi. I'm being dead serious. Because what communism IS was once well-understood. Obviously it isn't any longer.

    The only people who EVER speak in favour of communism clearly know nothing about the history - they have never lived in or have experienced the regime for themselves. One has to ask, has the 20th century been forgotten? Is history being erased by schools and colleges? Nothing would surprise me now. Every government of this type ends either in bankruptcy, revolution, or genocide. That's the bottom line. Is that conveniently absent from the present day curriculum? Many young people of course weren't even alive in the 20th century, so if they didn't live it and now aren't being taught about it, they just won't know. They may think they know, but I would say they've been fooled by propaganda, by bullsh!t. But they won't know the reality.

    A history lesson.



    I already hear claims of "that wasn't real communism". Well that is certainly bollocks.



    This is also an excellent talk and has many relevant points.

    I think you’re confusing communism with totalitarianism.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Kamikaze (here)
    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)
    Thanks Gemma, but I’m not giving any more energy to this. It’s up to people to do their own research, the chips will fall where they will, seems most here have decided their position anyway.
    As the thread was all about you... well...

    Agent provocateur. Infiltration, Discord, Phycological games. I'll leave it at that. Well done.
    And yet I didn’t start it, so 💁🏻‍♀️ This conversation started as a personal statement on my behalf so that people could understand where I was coming from and why. It divulged into something else that was not my intention and not something I needed to pursue. But thanks for the judgment.

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  14. Link to Post #28
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    The system AutumnW describes sounds very similar to what was tried in the UK in the 70s. Huge unemployment, welfare dependence, a total union stranglehold on industry, and social decay. Taxing the wealthy only led to the inevitable brain drain, too. The UK is still paying for that to this day. In short, it was a complete disaster. I remember it, and lived through it. And it was precisely this 'socialist experiment' in Britain that led to the Margaret Thatcher years, beginning with her landslide victory in 1979. The least terrible result you can hope for, and it WILL happen, is a massive right-wing backlash at the end of it. Believe me.

    What is so often touted as bright, new political ideas are not that at all. They're old ideas. They've been tried and tested before, and they failed before.

    I am pretty tired of hearing about the constant left wing/right wing meta-narrative to be honest, because neither side holds the grand, unifying solution for humanity, even when applied with absolute moral precision.

    I don't know how humanity will survive this century, much less progress beyond it. A massive global consciousness 'shift' is the only possibility I can see that has any chance of working. Political shifts, especially radical ones, always end in disaster. 'Radical' is the most terrifying word in the English language. If anyone understands one single thing about 20th century history, they should absolutely know that.

    I think our best chance is to somehow abandon geopolitics and global economics entirely, entirely, and return to purer, more 'natural' living, existing at a smaller scale. A way focused more on cooperation and community. And I don't mean we should all become agrarians and luddites, but adopt a simpler, certainly more spiritual life. How we even begin to achieve that, especially with dark Orwellian forces standing in our way, I have no idea at all.
    This didn’t happen in Australia either. And I’m not sure it even happened in the UK. Australia during this period implemented free healthcare, free university education, free legal aid, instituted a liveable social support system and thrived.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    I just checked here (https://www.comparitech.com/privacy-security-tools/blockedinchina/), and Project Avalon forum is accessible from mainland China. You can even view this forum from Inner Mongolia.

    Twitter is blocked, Parler is not blocked. YouTube is blocked. www.infowars.com is not blocked, nor is davidicke.com blocked.

    Most of the websites I care about are not blocked by Communist China, but some are. Not as bad as I was expecting but it's still too much censorship for me to consider communism 'working'. I'm with the people Hong Kong on this one
    Yoyoyo,,

    I think Jane is advancing Communism as an economic model, not authoritarianism or totalitarianism. There IS a difference. The Canadian government is currently looking at a universal basic income, as an ongoing response following from the pandemic. It will not allow for any more than a subsistence level of survival and those who want to enjoy a higher standard of living will have to find work...if they can. That's the issue...if they can. With technology and automation eating jobs, and now over 50% of service industry jobs gone (never to return) we have to, as a country, find a humane way to deal with the problems we are facing.

    A person can rightly claim that work is absolutely necessary as it gives our lives meaning and structure. Others can rightfully claim that underpaying jobs in the service industry, (the only expanding part of the economy in the last decade), subtract meaning and tie many up in cycles of despair.

    I see it as a complex but solvable problem, where those with a basic income will be free to do volunteer work and pursue their dreams, outside of the current economic model.

    So, China...no. Russia...no. Higher taxes on the wealthy...yes. It is inevitable unless they want to live in a society where they themselves suffer in other ways due to desperation of the masses.
    Twenty or so years from now the world will be a very very different place. Any career that can be automated will and the majority of them are situated within male dominated sectors, from mining, to factory work, to delivery, to finance. The only jobs that will survive are those that involve working with and managing people, the majority of which will be caring professions.

    The very idea of work is going to be tipped on its head. We need to get out front of this before the controllers determine it for us.

    Should be a fun time.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)

    Australia during this period implemented free healthcare, free university education, free legal aid, instituted a liveable social support system and thrived.


    Did the IMF lend the country money for that ?
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Norman, The IMF generally charges horrific interest rates or extracts promises of privatization of national resources as payment. You note that Jane said the country thrived. Once the IMF has its hooks into a country, they don't thrive.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    delete it all.
    Last edited by Kamikaze; 13th November 2020 at 17:26.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Kamikaze (here)
    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)


    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Kamikaze (here)
    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)
    Thanks Gemma, but I’m not giving any more energy to this. It’s up to people to do their own research, the chips will fall where they will, seems most here have decided their position anyway.
    As the thread was all about you... well...

    Agent provocateur. Infiltration, Discord, Phycological games. I'll leave it at that. Well done.
    And yet I didn’t start it, so 💁🏻‍♀️ This conversation started as a personal statement on my behalf so that people could understand where I was coming from and why. It divulged into something else that was not my intention and not something I needed to pursue. But thanks for the judgment.
    I'm too familiar with your ideals living around it. It's not what you want to portray it as.
    It's a dead system, something needing to be left behind, we don't need it implemented over and over again to see it fail over and over again.
    Welcome to reality, ideals in the bin if I may please.
    You fail to account for human nature. Or Nature at large at all with the view you want it to be.
    I've seen it before and promoted before, I can't believe the "textbook" examples you deliver at every moment. If I may put the party line play book to the side, unless it's too far indoctrinated already?

    It's like reading the party head talking seeing you post here. Promotional talk in it's entirety.
    Incompetence creeps out from your peers. It gets sad to see people fail so often and so badly.
    Ideals do not match reality, so stop peddling fantasy.

    Credentials don't mean much if it's just a stamp on a paper. Education that lowers it's level of entry for a pass is a disaster. So when everyone walks around with their "Education" lambasting all others for their "ignorance" when what you know is false, dumb, even fabricated. Machined to match your ideals. You want to stand above others, that paper is your "gospel" allowing you to judge others.

    Don't take it personal but this left view I've seen before, and it's the same as always. The sooner it's discarded the better for peoples lives it will be.
    The most vile and abhorrent people I have known are in your peerage. The quality is abysmal, not people I want around me in any matter of life.

    I don't like the right side you so are vehemently against, I've seen how they are. They are mostly imbeciles and dumb people from my personal interactions but they don't go about attacking people for their faults or seek problems where there aren't any.
    The kind that have promoted the things you say in life have been evil in comparison, seeing faults and mayhem where there wasn't any. All for personal gratification.
    I have nothing good to say of the Left side. I've seen it lived it and interacted with it every day of my life. Lets move on and put this system of yours into the dustbin of History where it belonged a century ago already. It's past it's time. We don't need another iteration.
    That’s funny, because if you’d read my missives you would discover that I said it was human nature that would preclude communism from ever working, that until the world experienced a mass spiritual awakening, the entire movement would be dead.

    But okay.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    delete it all.
    Last edited by Kamikaze; 13th November 2020 at 17:26.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    A form of communism or perhaps better described as tribalism appears to have worked long ago when there were matrilineal cultures, and has worked in more modern indigenous tribes to some extent, I think.
    The pioneering work of Marija Gimbutus is credited for discovering much about the inner workings of such societies:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas
    "Joseph Campbell and Ashley Montagu[20][21] each compared the importance of Marija Gimbutas's output to the historical importance of the Rosetta Stone in deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphs. Campbell provided a foreword to a new edition of Gimbutas's The Language of the Goddess (1989) before he died, and often said how profoundly he regretted that her research on the Neolithic cultures of Europe had not been available when he was writing The Masks of God. The ecofeminist Charlene Spretnak argued in 2011 that a "backlash" against Gimbutas's work had been orchestrated, starting in the last years of her life and following her death.[22]"

    (AND SO OF COURSE...>
    "Reception
    Mainstream archaeology dismissed Gimbutas's later works.[23] Anthropologist Bernard Wailes (1934–2012) of the University of Pennsylvania commented to The New York Times that most of Gimbutas's peers[24] believe her to be "immensely knowledgeable but not very good in critical analysis. ... She amasses all the data and then leaps from it to conclusions without any intervening argument." He said that most archaeologists consider her to be an eccentric.[21]"

    The conditions of such a truly communist culture would probably have had to depend upon it being isolated and self-sustaining, with no need for warfare.
    The most important, agreed-upon focus would have had to be mutual cooperation in seeing that everyone's basic needs were met.
    In those matrilineal cultures, land was said to have passed down from women to their female descendants.
    Though in a truly communist or tribal society, the land would be considered to belong to everyone.
    Since women generally are more cooperative, more nurturing and less competitive then men, it was probably easier to keep the peace when women had equal say in governance.
    I would say this hasn't really been achieved as yet in more modern times, though no doubt some indigenous peoples have come close.
    Though there is a movement now toward self-governing, sustainable intentional communities in which some of these ideals are being put in practice.
    See: https://www.ic.org/start/
    Just some observations.
    Last edited by onawah; 10th July 2020 at 00:52.
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Kamikaze (here)
    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)

    That’s funny, because if you’d read my missives you would discover that I said it was human nature that would preclude communism from ever working, that until the world experienced a mass spiritual awakening, the entire movement would be dead.

    But okay.
    Playing around huh. So why promote it? You already acknowledge it's fiction. Or you trying to change human nature? That the grand plan I'm missing? Like trying to break a law of nature.
    Seems it not possible to have anything come out from you like others of your kind. Deflection, games and others. It's tiring going around in circles when trying to involve your kind.

    Manipulation is a nature you love to invoke. <-that evil
    I'll say no more, already said to much, never good to read stuff from you folks in a ill mood.
    Dude,

    Just stop. You weren’t in the original conversation. As I said, I offered information about myself to describe my position. I was then attacked for having such a position and the conversation devolved. I said then that I had no interest in discussing it further. I said here I didn’t have any interest in discussing it further and then you attacked me.

    I’m done with this. Move along boy.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Kamikaze (here)
    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)

    That’s funny, because if you’d read my missives you would discover that I said it was human nature that would preclude communism from ever working, that until the world experienced a mass spiritual awakening, the entire movement would be dead.

    But okay.
    Playing around huh. So why promote it? You already acknowledge it's fiction. Or you trying to change human nature? That the grand plan I'm missing? Like trying to break a law of nature.
    Seems it not possible to have anything come out from you like others of your kind. Deflection, games and others. It's tiring going around in circles when trying to involve your kind.

    Manipulation is a nature you love to invoke. <-that evil
    I'll say no more, already said to much, never good to read stuff from you folks in a ill mood.
    This is odd. What do you mean by "her kind" and also, what is your experience with Communism, you are in Sweden? Tell us more about that, so we understand why you have strong feelings about this.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    There's been some extremely valuable contributions here and I think that's important for our awareness due to the up and coming generations being fed, or not fed, historical data that informs, influences and shapes their ideologies about where they are going to lead us.

    Because whether we (older generations) like it or not our families future is in their hands.  And as has already been mentioned, I do believe this century is pivotal and critical for the human race on so many levels.

    Can we all try hard to keep discussing the points made by members without the add-on personal slings because one doesn't agree with another.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Gemma13 (here)
    There's been some extremely valuable contributions here and I think that's important for our awareness due to the up and coming generations being fed, or not fed, historical data that informs, influences and shapes their ideologies about where they are going to lead us.

    Because whether we (older generations) like it or not our families future is in their hands.  And as has already been mentioned, I do believe this century is pivotal and critical for the human race on so many levels.

    Can we all try hard to keep discussing the points made by members without the add-on personal slings because one doesn't agree with another.
    Can you explain what you mean by younger and older generations?

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Put it this way. Democracy means that as a sovereign individual you have the freedom and opportunity to become more than you are, in fact anything you want to be. What's more, you have the power to not only choose the style of the regime and the personnel in that regime, but the power to change it by electoral process.
    Democracy means you are not a sovereign, you are a subject citizen. The facade of voting is the main method of Totalitarian Democracy. This is what most of us live in. Extreme example: Palestinians subjugated by Israel have the right to vote. Modest example: no representatives represent me, thanks for the choices.

    Almost every country that was behind the Iron Curtain, and then gifted with Democracy, now, thirty years later, shows that a majority reject Democracy. That means more than 50%, and in Bulgaria, up to 86% want it to go away.

    It is damn hard to get rid of.

    Again, if we are going to say central banking is the spine of all these terrible governments, I only know of one actual successful legal retaliation to it, the American Revolution. In the cases of the few un-banked countries such as N. Korea, they were never under the shadow of the Bank of England, so whatever they have does not represent a revolt, but some surviving vestige of their own making.

    Since our national anthem refers to the war of 1812, which was a British assault specifically about trying to get ahold of the then-national bank, it would be kind of nice if people would carry this meaning with it. What is the freaking fourth of July. But since then, we surrendered via the Democratic process, and so we are left as subjects to something totalitarian in nature which will sweep us out of our houses any time.

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