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Thread: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    I'm afraid Frank V's expressions in this thread come across more like a religious zealot than a "scientist" to me. Science does not work in the way he asserts. It requires to interact with the natural world, not dictate it.

    In particular, contrary to many of his allusions in that thread such as on the subject of 5G and vaccines, the scientific method does not work in reverse. It's a one way process that goes from hypothesis to proof. That means that, while it's quite good at demonstrating that "phenomenon X" has "effect Y" on "phenomenon Z", it's almost useless at demonstrating that it holistically doesn't since you're required to hypothesise what "effect Y" would be at the outset - (commonly known as "guessing").

    I can take 500 people, give them all 20 cigarettes a day to smoke for 2 weeks in double-blind controlled tests, check them all for lung cancer a month later and proudly declare that "science has 'proven' smoking doesn't cause lung cancer" because I did everything scientifically and wrote it up in a peer reviewed journal.

    It would still be wrong and the masses of people that suspected so, along with those that were skeptical of asbestos safety, toxic food additives, the earth being flat instead of round, vaccine safety and the idea that an invisible fluid called "phlogiston" was responsible for heat transfer...would still all be right.

    Religion works in a hierarchical structure where a "deity" representative who's more in touch with God than you are brokers the communications and tells you "how things are". Science does not work like this which is why you don't need a degree in dentistry to demand that he look again at your tooth if you still have toothache a week later after an appointment. It is a mutual process of discovery.

    People don't get on planes because aerodynamicists wave complex equations at them. They get on them because they see others doing so and not falling out of the sky. Thereby deploying the "scientific method" to their own ends despite not being institutionally anointed "scientists". The scientific method is open to everyone and SHOULD be practiced by everyone, not least as due diligence to prevent institutionalised science (a very different thing) from being corrupted as it so often is.

    Lets just take 2 examples - 5G and climate "warming". The frequency range from roughly 2 GHz to 100 GHz which contains the microwave spectrum is KNOWN to be dangerous to humans. That is because as the wavelength reduces it is increasingly absorbed by whatever is "in the way" instead of passing straight through it. This property is put to use for example with microwave ovens. The entire basis for declaring this frequency band "safe" is the level of intensity alone. (i.e. it's simply turned down till it "shouldn't" affect us). However there are many problems with this approach: one is that sticking a few hundred mice in front of a 5G repeater for a year or two and checking if any of them are dead at the end of it is not remotely the same thing as detecting, say, cognitive difficulties in a 7 year old child amongst hundreds of millions who are brought up in an environment bathed in low-level microwave electromagnetic radiation. If anyone tells you otherwise they don't understand the scientific method, regardless of how institutionally "rubber stamped" they may be.

    Another problem is the inverse-square law. Electromagnetic propagation intensity is far from linear. If there's enough power for you to watch a Harry Potter movie on a 30'' Hi-def screen in your home over a 5G signal coming from the street, then there's about 10,000 times that intensity at a hundredth of the distance from the repeater (which is where you'll be when you're out shopping).

    Scientific institutions SHOULD acknowledge that but they largely don't because they're guided by the priorities of their paymasters at LEAST as much as dispassionate interpretation of scientific observations. The peer review process is only as good as its consumers (us) make it. It can be anything from a valuable validation tool to a monumental group-think fail.

    The "climate" propaganda is a good example of how it's ended up as the latter. It isn't very difficult to categorically demonstrate that CO2 is not a significant factor in climate temperature. This is because emissivity is a gas property which, while it may allow to the gas to heat up quicker, is not a factor in its temperature at radiative equilibrium which is required by Kirchoff's law and conservation of energy in the absence of an ever-increasing supply of solar heat. This is far more "settled science" than the "greenhouse" fairytale which, if true, would have cooked us to ta crisp eons ago along with many other planets.

    We are at a time in human history when "science" has never been in greater need of being cross-examined, questioned and having its assertions challenged where its consumers (us !) find they do not square. In that regard, people asserting "I am a scientist, I understand where you do not" over concerning issues should be attributed a similar level of trust as insurance salesmen IMO.
    Last edited by indigopete; 7th September 2020 at 20:11.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Frank V (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    My concern is not Franks opinions.
    It was the way he expressed, thats all.
    Im sure if we were face to face we would get on.
    I am aware that the condition he suffers from can make interaction with other difficult--for that I have compassion.
    Do you have any idea at all how insulting those words are?

    What's next ─ are you also going to claim that "my condition" affects my judgment, or perhaps my sanity? Because it's only a small step from what you wrote to the innuendo that I might be intellectually or cognitively impaired, Chris.
    Frank now you really are misunderstanding me.
    Bill said I should show compassion I have.
    Your intellect and understanding, sanity not in question.
    I accept what I said open to misunderstanding -- again I apologize -- not my intent.
    I am sorry you felt insulted.
    Chris
    Ps I said if we were face to face Im sure we would get on--I stand by that--comunication mainly non-verbal --in the smile --etc
    Last edited by greybeard; 7th September 2020 at 12:48.
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    Netherlands Avalon Member ExomatrixTV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Key is, to focus on your own energy, staying in self-honesty NOT being "blasted away" just because some one has "opinions" based upon so called "titles" or status ("authority") as they are just excuses to stay myopic & having wilful blinders on (tunnel-vision).

    One-dimensional reasoning. Projecting their OBVIOUS short-comings on others. Plus often falsely assuming that "you must be duped" as they are suppose to be free from any form of mass manipulations (mass conditioning serving a specific mainstream agenda).

    I never try to focus on 1 person ... everything I do is to have my own ground to deal with bullies of all types being an inspiration to 1000s ... I see everything as symbolic.

    Some ACT a certain way that is like a template people carry with them all their life until they die. That template (mind-set) LOVES to put others in boxes using labels and such to AVOID real honest exchange of new insights & new ideas. They assume you can only have a real debate if you have the "correct" label, status, frame-work. Thus they keep their (false) assumptions UNCHALLENGED. It is all Psychology.

    When you see through their mind-games & self-deluding tactics you can only pity them. All is symbolic. Just show patience and keep your ground by having EQUAL right to be heard ... not because of 1 person but all who consider to broaden their own horizon of possibilities. This quality can be practiced KNOWING you are communicating with so much more than just 1 or 2 programmed status quo parrots.

    cheers.
    John Kuhles September 7, 2020
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 7th September 2020 at 14:17.
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    Exclamation Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Main (often ignored, or overlooked) insight between 3G, 4G & 5G = with 3G & 4G Cell Towers you have a choice to move/live elsewhere AWAY form the Cancer Cluster Zones... With 5G (y)our children and their children will be FORCED to be in it 24/7 (much closer proximity) so do your pets, birds, bees, plants, trees and last but not least: yourself.
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 7th September 2020 at 13:53.
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    What about that folks?
    That seems to be the missing link between 5G and vaccines.

    Scientists Fit 1,000,000 Walking Nanobots Into Hypodermic Needle That Function Wireless, Latest

    "One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing" Socrates

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Jules renard said "It doesn't pay to say too much when you are mad enough to choke. For the word that stings the deepest is the word that is never spoke, Let the other fellow wrangle till the storm has blown away, then he'll do a heap of thinking about the things you didn't say."

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    Thumbs up Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Do you know WHY most (if not all) authoritarians do not like to be challenged? ... Because they assume their "word" is (good) enough ... And anyone not (blindly) accepting their "word" will be seen as an "attack" of their status. From their "logic/perspectives" anyone doubting or challenging or questioning their closely guarded narrative is seen (interpreted) as an "accusation" being a "liar". That is why they OVERREACT by doing things they accuse others of doing

    "Mental Defense Reflex Mechanism"

    I have this happen so many times in countless controversial topics/heated discussions ... I get immune to it ... It does not bother me anymore.

    cheers,
    John
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 7th September 2020 at 14:15.
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    It seems to me that separate from all the possible power plays around Sars-2 virus, we don't know everything about this virus and how it may affect alot of people long term. No matter what else is possibly happenning, real people are getting sick and suffering, and from what Chris Martenson reported and the latest study Frank V posted, we are looking at complex imbalances to numerous body functions. Any new finds on how and why this is happening can only help.

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Harmony (here)
    It seems to me that separate from all the possible power plays around Sars-2 virus, we don't know everything about this virus and how it may affect alot of people long term. No matter what else is possibly happenning, real people are getting sick and suffering, and from what Chris Martenson reported and the latest study Frank V posted, we are looking at complex imbalances to numerous body functions. Any new finds on how and why this is happening can only help.
    Yes agreed
    Flu also has long term effects, the symptoms are identical in most cases.

    This video is relatively new science and throws a different light on the cause of virus.

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Should we move this thread into the 5G section? (Seems that we should!)

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Quote Posted by Harmony (here)
    It seems to me that separate from all the possible power plays around Sars-2 virus, we don't know everything about this virus and how it may affect alot of people long term. No matter what else is possibly happenning, real people are getting sick and suffering, and from what Chris Martenson reported and the latest study Frank V posted, we are looking at complex imbalances to numerous body functions. Any new finds on how and why this is happening can only help.
    Yes agreed
    Flu also has long term effects, the symptoms are identical in most cases.

    This video is relatively new science and throws a different light on the cause of virus.

    I'm grateful for alot of things you post Chris. It's good you have your opinion. It's not a competition and it's ok for other's to have an opinion formed on their experiences.
    What other's have to say could also be important. Anyone might not have all the dots to connect. It's possible there are unknowns to this virus, and might not be anything like an ordinary flu.

    I'm getting the impression there are people frustrated hearing "it's like an ordinary flu" or "only old immune compromised people get it" etc. That doesn't seem to be the case and people with health issues are no less important. I'm not saying you mean that either, your a good man. It might be important for anyone to leave room for any new information coming forward that could be very important.

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Should we move this thread into the 5G section? (Seems that we should!)
    I do not think so.....Scientific Materialism is much larger a subject than any particular technology. Censorship of challenges to various orthodoxies is a huge threat to civilization. As John stated, the global technocratic machine seeks to inundate us with unavoidable chemicals (ex. Glyphosate), frequencies like 5G, and lifestyles dependent on smart devices. The political ownership by the Corporatocracy, because of funding, means laws are made (and mandates) that cannot be challenged by "the 99%" who are affected. Also Science that is grounded in the larger picture of what human nature (and Nature) NEEDS must include the intangible variables like meaning of life and question WHY we would want to agree to suggested "improvements".

    The extreme suppression of dissent has been aided by a global information superhighway which now runs through all our institutions. Only certain "vehicles" allowed there. Checkpoints and Gatekeepers easily manage what is allowed to be true as there is no alternative. It is the new book burning.

    Supposedly science is objective but we have seen IT IS NOT! It is a cult (the cult of Scientific Materialism). If science is not REAL science and instead a rubber stamp approval of what the "Priests of the Cult" seek to install (therefore make the TRUTH to justify it), we have what we see happening NOW in the Military/Medical Industrial Vice hold.

    I think we are being quarantined in Hotel California because of Scientific Materialism. There are promises of salvation if you just wait there. You can have a really good time with lots of gadgets there. You can believe you are free. You can believe you are living well. "You can check in anytime you want but YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE."

    Back in the old days when censorship was just beginning to be "in our face":

    Quote ‘TED’ Sparks Paradigm War
    4/19/2013
    Internet video site TED has removed presentations by biologist Rupert Sheldrake and historian Graham Hancock because—according to TED—their ideas are “pseudoscience.”

    What does this mean?

    Well, simply, it means that one of the leading Internet sites for sharing intellectual ideas has shut out views that challenge deep-rooted dogmas of modern science—a decidedly unscientific act. It means the folks at TED buy into mainstream scientific materialism as the last word on what is “real” or “ideas worth spreading.”

    So, what happened?

    The TED organizers have decided not to allow any TED or TEDx Talk that questions scientific dogma about the nature of mind or consciousness. The standard scientific story is that “obviously” mind is produced by the brain, and that all aspects of consciousness can be reduced to electrochemical events between neurons. Anyone who dares to suggest otherwise is obviously “woo-woo,” a “fraud,” a “pseudoscientist.”

    Of course, nothing of the sort is “obvious” at all. No-one—no scientist, no philosopher, no self-appointed guardian of media “truth”—can even begin to explain how purely physical brain events could ever “squirt out” subjective experiences. In different ways, Sheldrake’s and Hancock’s talks explored the idea and presented evidence that consciousness exists beyond the brain. The technical term for this is “nonlocal consciousness.”

    In the “Century of the Brain,” apparently the only acceptable way to talk about consciousness or mind is in the language of cognitive science or neuroscience. The mere whiff of any alternative needs to be suppressed.

    WHAT IS ‘TED’ AFRAID OF?

    I’ve been tracking the TED “paradigm wars” with growing interest. And I would like to support the chorus of voices challenging TED and the dominant materialist paradigm.

    As a philosopher, it is frustrating to have to keep defending non-reductionist studies of consciousness. But it seems that no matter what anyone says (or how we say it) dogmatists such as the administrators at TED and mainstream materialist scientists and philosophers (Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett are prime examples) will not open up or change their minds. They simply refuse to even discuss alternative possibilities. Like many of us, they have so much vested in their positions—careers, academic reputations, funding, mortgages to pay, etc. . .). It takes courage (or a major shock to the system) for people to change their fundamental beliefs.

    This is less a scientific than a metaphysical issue. As long as science clings to methods rooted in sensory empiricism (the idea that only what can be detected and measured by the senses counts as “real”), we will never have a science of consciousness. Neither neuroscience nor cognitive science study consciousness per se. As I and others have pointed out, studying the neural correlates of consciousness is not at all the same as studying consciousness.

    Part of the problem is that few scientists today are sufficiently familiar with either the history or philosophy of science, and therefore lack the perspective needed to question their fundamental metaphysical assumptions.

    “Paradigm wars” are, essentially, “metaphysical wars”—conflicts between fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality. Most people (including most scientists) are not even clear about what their own basic metaphysical assumptions are; and few seem equipped to question their metaphysical beliefs, even if aware of them.
    Last edited by Delight; 7th September 2020 at 22:02.

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Bill removed a post based on "noise".

    Quote Posted by indigopete (here)
    We are at a time in human history when "science" has never been in greater need of being cross-examined, questioned and having its assertions challenged where its consumers (us !) find they do not square. In that regard, people asserting "I am a scientist, I understand where you do not" over concerning issues should be attributed a similar level of trust as insurance salesmen IMO.
    This was a very helpful post and dispassionate and hits the nail IMO.

    Why are we beating a "drum" and making noise? Is it possible because we really CARE?

    Jo Rogan interviewed a vaccine advocate/scientist last year Peter Hotez. This scientist when asked "What is in vaccines" replied "saline and some antigen". OF COURSE hearing that, a person trusting SCIENCE would say... that sounds like a wonderfully simple and helpful thing... what's all the fuss with thoseLuddite Types who would stop people form vaccinating?

    If there were no people "beating drums" about the LOONNNGGG list of other ingredients, complacent consumers never find out... MOST vaccine skeptics are former proponents whose lives were turned into nightmares by vaccination.

    I know that it is inconvenient to the paymasters to have loud drums beating. They are outlawing them. I never thought that this forum was "like that". Now Bill openly admits he prefers we stop making noise. I have been actually thinking maybe I would quit making noise. Maybe it is now past the expiration date for contributions that try to make some UNcommon sense.

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    There is quite a lot of complimentary posts on the thread.
    Crash and burn thread --definately not.
    Any posts are appreciated by me.

    Mine can be misinterpreted.

    I have never denied that people are greatly affected by this virus.
    Where there is doubt, my doubt, is to what it is.
    There is no test that can differentiate between the Virus and Flu which is very deadly, it kills millions.
    If I am incorrect please correct.

    On the whole what I post is experts on video. Dr.s Professors, immunologists.
    Not my opinion -- though I do have one

    Im not in denial that something deadly is in our midst.

    I would love to be wrong in everything I have posted and to find that all of the Governments of the world are continuing to take measures to save us from the most deadly virus since the Spanish Flu.

    Yes I bang a drum -- focused with little change since this started -- why - because I have grandchildren who will be affected in a multitude of ways for years to come. I dont claim to be right.
    Thanks to Paula.
    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 7th September 2020 at 16:58.
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    With that dedicated resource available, what's not okay is to spam other threads with 5G-related polemic when the thread creator has tried to present information of their own that lies in a different field.

    What happened on Frank's thread A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19, and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged was that several people immediately derailed the entire thing by injecting more 5G opinions.
    Lately whenever I click on the new posts list, a vast chunk of it is discussions on Covid, 5G and Qanon. For that reason, I would say it's pretty silly that people cry "censorship!" when being restricted in posting conspiracist reactions in a single thread that somewhat differs from the several dozen others where such reactions can be endlessly explored. It's similar to how people reacted when a small change was made to the main Qanon thread showing up on public view.

    In terms of scientific materialism, I agree that it is responsible for many of the current ills of the world, and we should be careful not to treat current research findings as a final authority. On the flip side, it also goes along with what Wade has often pointed out in his free energy thread, namely, that conspiracist knee-jerk reactions are mostly a waste of time and energy, and that scientific literacy is quite low. You can't overcome the flaws of something without first understanding how it works.
    Last edited by Chris Gilbert; 7th September 2020 at 19:58.

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    I tend to post for guests -- repetition is good-- the cabal know that.
    Members have every right to comment on any of my posts --I dont claim that Ive got it right.

    Its a bit like one President when asked to prove his competence with questions and could not answer one.
    He said "I dont know the answer to that but I know some one who does"

    Im attempting to bring some humour to this thread smiling -- I dont mind being silly.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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  33. Link to Post #37
    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)

    Yes I bang a drum -- focused with little change since this started -- why - because I have grandchildren who will be affected in a multitude of ways for years to come. I dont claim to be right.
    Thanks to Paula.
    Chris
    You care Chris. You have a love for those who will come later.
    "The great work is about the future of humanity".


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    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Please don't do that. The issues I raised in the opening post have to do with much more than just 5G.
    I think that would be relegating it to a space where it would get much less attention than all those issues deserve, and though 5G is certainly an important one, it's by no means the only important one.
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Should we move this thread into the 5G section? (Seems that we should!)
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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    United States Moderator Sue (Ayt)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    I happen to have both extremes among my loved ones. My son being on the "science can do no wrong" side, being a NYC "mover and shaker" (haha) while my husband leans to the "if it's woo woo, it's the truth" side. Both get down on me regularly for being what they call "wishy-washy" and not committing fully to either. I just don't live in a black/white paradigm, and never did for some reason, although I can totally place myself in their shoes and feel their frustrations. But I do have trouble with their inability to shake their kaleidoscopes even a little bit!

    Personally, I simply like to explore and understand and to glean ever more knowledge from the latest bits of info from both sides. If they pique my interest, I generally dive much deeper into the origination of the info bit, and try this new info on for size. (kind of like I do with beliefs). I very much think in the realm of "what if?"

    With Frank V's thread in question, I was instantly drawn to wanting to understand what this newest info was, and looked forward to the discussion. I had already run across this topic elsewhere. I admit to being disappointed when yes, it was (in my eyes) preempted by the same old topics that we have already explored here on PA, so I more or less skimmed those posts hoping to get back on topic. I do hope to never stop learning and exploring, and PA has been the best and highest quality of forum sharing that I have encountered to date.
    so.....
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    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    Please don't do that. The issues I raised in the opening post have to do with much more than just 5G.
    I think that would be relegating it to a space where it would get much less attention than all those issues deserve, and though 5G is certainly an important one, it's by no means the only important one.
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Should we move this thread into the 5G section? (Seems that we should!)
    Seconded. I am busy writing a post that has absolutely nothing to do with 5G, about which I know next to nothing, but which might belong here.


    This is hugely relevant to the entire Avalon enterprise. If some of the forum's most gifted minds cannot work together, then Houston we definitely have a problem.


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