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Thread: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

  1. Link to Post #101
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Is COVID-19 virus an Exosome? Ken Witwer+Jan Lötvall - the extracellular vesicle angle



    For this video Jan Lötvall has invited Ken Witwer to discuss the overlap between extracellular vesicles (EV) and virus. Specifically we discuss the way by which enveloped viruses use the host membranes to produce virions (the virus particle).
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing said in this vlog-podcast should be considered to be final scientific facts, as we primarily introduce hypotheses and thoughts about the topic, even though these are educated. We also have a discussion how EVs could be involved in the disease, and how EVs from different sources could be utilized as therapeutics. Importantly, all of these comments are speculations, and do not convey any recommendation. All therapies to be tested in COVID-19 should undergo proper processes and approvals before being tested in patients.


    I must say I find this interesting --Im learning -- I have no opinion
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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  3. Link to Post #102
    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    If I may just step in here briefly to add my 2 cents, I think you both have a point.
    IMHO, Gracy, Greybeard's posts generally don't lack in quality in the sources of information he sites, which I appreciate a lot because they are usually very credible and often ones that I've missed.
    But I can appreciate how the number of posts the Mods have to monitor just adds to the work load. for which you are not compensated!

    The quantity of your posts, Chris, can be overwhelming, not just to the Mods, but to members and guests as well, I think, particularly when they just consist of a few comments, followed soon after by another one with just a few comments, and so on.
    It's like you are using Avalon to record your stream of consciousness, which isn't really what it's intended for, unless you have a thread of your own intended specifically for that purpose, such as Wind and Wade Frazier have done.
    It does get a bit much as well, when you repeat the same remarks over and over again, such as "just my opinion, which may be flawed" etc..
    It gets to be kind of like overhearing someone talking to themselves or arguing with someone who's not even really there.
    May I make a suggestion?
    That you hold off for awhile before commenting on any particular thread/subject until you have gathered a number of thoughts, articles or videos to share, etc., and then make a compilation, where possible, so that your posts are longer and denser, with relevant info, but not so frequent, repetitive, and sort of rambling in the thinking-out-load mode?
    I think that would save the Mods a lot of trouble, and would make your posts more attractive to the average reader, whether member or guest.
    Offered in the spirit of constructive criticism, and appreciation for the efforts of both!
    Thanks!
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    hence my repetitive posts contrary to this being a valid accurate reliable test.
    My emphasis.

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Members are entitled to support wearing masks and that the test is ok, if that is their choice. Im posting information for guests -- not trying to influence members.
    Members are welcome to criticize my posts there in lies the value of a balanced forum
    Guests can make up their own minds too.
    Chris.

    Stepping far enough back from this issue to see the forum as a guest may view it, there is something else you need to consider. The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil, often times the listener hears it to such great extent, that the sound begins to be ignored, and slowly fades on off into the backdrop of daily consciousness.

    I did some quick basic math, and of the 98 posts thus far in this thread, 27 are yours. Someone scrolling through this thread will see that smiling face of yours 28% of the time. You're even light years ahead of two others adament in these issues, with onowah's current post count here at 15 (15%), and delight at 9 (9%).

    Adding together the drumbeat of all three equals a whopping 52% of all posts on this thread, with you leading the charge!

    Chris (and others), often times less is more. Don't think for one second that everyone in the general vicinity, from passing guest to members posting daily, don't know precisely how you feel about certain matters, and why.

    They've got it.

    Essentially what you're doing at this point by pounding that drum even more incessantly, is the exact opposite of what you're hoping for. Any more, rather than people curious to see your next opinion, they're just thinking to themselves "oh there he is again", and moving on to something else.

    You have a background in psychology? This is Psychology 101.
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Perhaps a look at the number of posts advocating the use of masks and saying the tests are valid might give balance.
    Most times my posts are in response to these, they are not in isolation.
    Also look at the number of times per day the Government Memes come upon TV Papers Radio.

    Funnily enough Eckhart Tolle and other spiritual teachers have been saying identical things for many years.
    Thousands a week visit this thread to hear the same old.
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1377288

    Of course you are correct in what you say Gracy May
    People can check my posts or not as the case might be -- freedom of choice.
    They do evolve with latest info on the subject from reputable sources.
    Its not just repeat of my opinion, which as said may be flawed.
    People have come to believe the propaganda of the official narrative, through being exposed to repetition
    Chris

    Ps We are at war --its not about proving anything --its about winning this battle against evil. Thats what beating a drum is about.
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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  5. Link to Post #103
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Accepted what you say onawah I get carried away -- a bit over enthusiastic perhaps.
    I mean well -- smiling.
    Chris
    Mod note from Bill:

    Chris, I've put you On Sabbatical for 3 days (72 hours). That's not a punishment, or else it'd be termed a "temporary suspension". It's a tough-love support for you to get focused on what's really important, how and why you contribute to a discussion, and what you do and don't contribute to Avalon's quality.

    onawah's post to you was better stated than the mods have so far been able to, and was 100% spot on. We appreciate that. Something has to change here. More is not necessarily better.

    And thinking aloud all the time, saying that you don't really know stuff, doesn't help a soul — except that maybe you feel a little better after expressing yourself.

    This is not your personal blog or journal: it's a communal round-table discussion which in some areas has become way out of healthy, valuable balance. If you can't moderate yourself wisely and sensitively, the mods will do this for you.


    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 11th September 2020 at 19:13.
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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  7. Link to Post #104
    United States Avalon Member Bluegreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    There is a contingent of posters who see this site as their own "personal blog" between themselves and Bill, which is fine

    To be fair, I see this site as every member's "personal blog"


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  9. Link to Post #105
    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil, often times the listener hears it to such great extent, that the sound begins to be ignored, and slowly fades on off into the backdrop of daily consciousness....delight at 9 (9%)
    I am taking a sabbatical too, not officially leaving but will not add to the quantities of info. Keeping the forum streamlined is bound to benefit for brevity. Mods are not paid. I have always thought that the mod room was probably a club. Just to be clear, I don't understand the need to impose this kind of move (on Greybeard or anyone) but I did learn from Dan Andrews that 8-5 curfews make it easier for the police.

    True, I feel a bit snarky as the world outside and that includes this court yard is looking a little unfriendly.

    It is true that at this point, information may be too little too late?

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  11. Link to Post #106
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Bluegreen (here)
    There is a contingent of posters who see this site as their own "personal blog" between themselves and Bill, which is fine

    To be fair, I see this site as every member's "personal blog"

    There are blogs and blogs!

    Yours discusses politics, Hollywood, sports, music, St Thomas, the military, ETs, Illuminati programming — and quite a lot else, including all aspects of human nature.

    That's admirably eclectic! And everything you post you give a great deal of thought to before you do (it's almost always interesting), and you also always give a great deal of room to everyone else.

    If you were sitting round a large table, or in a discussion group like the Laughlin meetup last year, you'd do a lot of listening and then when you said something, everyone would stop, interested in what you had to offer. You'd not be dominating any of the conversation, because you never do that either in the real world or in the virtual one.

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  13. Link to Post #107
    UK Moderator/Librarian/Administrator Tintin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Delight (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil, often times the listener hears it to such great extent, that the sound begins to be ignored, and slowly fades on off into the backdrop of daily consciousness....delight at 9 (9%)
    I am taking a sabbatical too, not officially leaving but will not add to the quantities of info. Keeping the forum streamlined is bound to benefit for brevity. Mods are not paid. I have always thought that the mod room was probably a club. Just to be clear, I don't understand the need to impose this kind of move (on Greybeard or anyone) but I did learn from Dan Andrews that 8-5 curfews make it easier for the police.

    True, I feel a bit snarky as the world outside and that includes this court yard is looking a little unfriendly.

    It is true that at this point, information may be too little too late?
    Hey Your contributions here are hugely valued, always. You need to know this.

    We'll always respect anyone who feels they need to take a breather. Boy, these are very challenging times and quite draining, for all, including moderators, who are also human
    Please don't go anywhere away from us too soon. If you do, and we'll respect that, do it only for your own self. That you've identified for yourself that you need to do that for your you.

    You have our love, always
    “If a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” - Thoreau

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  15. Link to Post #108
    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    A changed subject so my post is redundant. Please delete this post.
    Last edited by norman; 21st September 2020 at 18:31.
    .................................................. my first language is TYPO..............................................

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  17. Link to Post #109
    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Thank you norman. As someone who laid a few Norman bricks the other day, let me add a few thoughts of a bricklayer

    I am neither a scientist nor the opposite of a scientist. I have a grounding in a rigorous approach to ‘arts’ subjects of which the foundation is language. In other words, I do not seek resonance with this or that video (I don’t watch too many of those). I seek resonance/consistency with myself, what I write, which is why many of my links are to my own material. This is not so much a scientific as an encyclopaedic approach, and yet it all comes back to this one individual. On the other hand, if instead of trying to publish a book or post a personal blog I persist as an anonymous poster on a largish forum over which I have no influence, this suggests that I have nothing to buy and, more importantly, nothing to sell – beyond the content of my posts. Each of them costs some considerable effort, since when I begin writing I have no idea what I am going to say: the effort and the process actually produce the end result. To that extent, what I do matches my perception of how the universe works; which is not to say that whatever I write is in any way ‘valid’ beyond my personal perception. But it does relativize the importance both of greybeard’s ‘drum beat’ posts and Bill Ryan's multiple Chris Martenson posts. If my work agrees or disagrees with theirs, that is corroboration, not collaboration – always supposing the distinction still has any value.

    You see, looming large in my personal perception are my nearest and dearest, who are as wary of conspiracy theory as the rest of the population; they are my grounding. The latest suggestion that I relocate I reject for the same reason as last time, even though Baron C0rv0’s prediction of a big splash in the Atlantic would again cook my goose:
    Quote But take Wnlight’s predictions last year. They even claimed to a degree of objectivity, through dowsing. I live in a place where people should have been panicking, not to say drowning, but I naturally chose to ignore those dire predictions. If I had told my family we needed to move south immediately, they would [have] taken me to have my head examined, and rightly so as it turned out. The dowsing was capturing something, but only a potential thing, maybe some collective fear. An effective forum should not be relaying and amplifying this kind of negative non-information. This sort of thing has been going on for years and it only aggravates the main problem facing humanity, namely the growing nihilism in some quarters due to fear caused by eons of catastrophic trauma plus the steady drip of everyday trauma. In a sense, the fewer people know about some things the better, and if you are aware, better keep it to yourself. Secrecy is not always criminal. Generally speaking (but not always), fear is talkative: it is the opposite to, say, “Just do it”.
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1348239

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    But we DO have a precedent for cataclysm. It's happened before.
    […]
    We're all good people here.

    This last statement is not entirely correct, or at least has not always been so. It would have to include (just one example) Corey Goode, who has an ongoing thread here explaining in excruciating detail how he is a Good person in name only. Or it would have to include (just another example) a certain moderator ignominiously banned not very long ago. In fact, it may be that the perception ‘We're all good people here’ is the illusion that is the ‘precedent for cataclysm’. The idea that ‘It's happened before’ almost contains the idea that ‘It will happen again’. That is one thing that I WILL combat, and I am not talking about the microcosm of a forum.

    With all due respect, there is indeed a strange parallel between the relocation agenda and the forum owner’s ‘piss off’ message to long-established members. On both counts, I will not budge, and if this turns out to be my last post, so be it.


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  19. Link to Post #110
    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Greybeard and I are continuing to have some interesting email conversations while he is on involuntary sabbatical.
    He just emailed this to me from David Icke:
    "Its Coming! Are You Prepared For This?" David Icke
    8,000 views•Premiered 3 hours ago



    Which was very good timing because I have been meditating a bit lately on the human levels of consciousness, the chakras and the corresponding colors, as they were taught to me by a couple of different teachers, the first and foremost being the late Dr. Christopher Hills, who wrote a lot of books all about that sort of thing, one entitled "Nuclear Evolution". See: https://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-Evolu.../dp/0916438090

    In the video, David Icke speaks of the level of consciousness of the heart (the 4th chakra, for which the color is green).
    Green connects us with Nature, and David makes the association of acting in accordance with what is NATURAL , as acting from CONSCIENCE, without fear.
    When we act from that level we are acting instinctively from what our connection with Nature tells us is true and right and natural.
    (I think people often refer to that as "gut instinct" though of course, the gut is closer to the third chakra, which is about intellect. Perhaps we need to coin a new term like "heart instinct").

    The first time I was required to put on a mask so that I could go into a store to buy groceries, my heart was speaking for my whole organism, and was screaming "This is NOT RIGHT"!
    Not just morally wrong, but wrong because it was unnatural, because it wasn't good for me, not just for my physical being, not for my entire being.
    OF course, I had already formed an opinion about it before that, but that was coming in part from my intellect. This other response to masking was much more than that.

    The next chakra up is the throat (the color blue), and that is the level of devotion.
    Devotion gives us more of the energetic wherewithal to speak out for and to adhere to what we feel to be right.

    (Herd instinct, which is the second chakra (the color orange) keeps people doing what they are told, taking what they think is the safe path.
    The level of sensation, the root chakra, (the color red) prompts us to do what feels good sensually.

    According to Dr. Hills, most of the people of Earth are acting primarily from those two centers.)

    But I imagine that most of these people were not prompted by herd instinct or because it felt good sensually to come together (not to mention convenient!) to peacefully protest the lockdown, the masking, the testing, the whole plandemic...but were being prompted by their conscience and their devotion to the truth:



    I pray to God and Goddess that more will take heart from that example, and find the courage to speak out against what they know to be unnatural and wrong.
    We may yet be fewer in number, but not lesser in power or worthiness to be heard.
    Then we may see a real turning point in this massive herding toward annihilation that the elite would have us succumb to with their genocidal plans.
    Last edited by onawah; 13th September 2020 at 01:47.
    Each breath a gift...
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  21. Link to Post #111
    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Great data compilation on Covid here:
    Stanford University Nobel Prize Winner Biophysicist Michael Levitt says the pandemic is over, though according to the mainstream media, the "casedemic" continues. As much data from him and many other experts as anyone could wish in this video.I give the first part of this video an A+, despite all the religious beliefs shared at the end, but easy to skip through.
    https://www.facebook.com/veritasmedi...4536836892730/

    Also posted here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1377844
    Last edited by onawah; 13th September 2020 at 23:04.
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    _____________

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    United States Avalon Member Chester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    If people are interested in extremely in depth, sound analysis of the full impact and full reality of the COVID-19 saga, look no further than...

    The Ethical Skeptic -

    https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic

    His website -

    https://theethicalskeptic.com/

    and spend the 30 minutes listening to a recent interview -

    https://omny.fm/shows/the-todd-herma...ptic-joins-the

    Then come back and try and make the argument that the deaths of despair have been justified.

    Note: The credentials of The Ethical Skeptic are impeccable both with regards to knowing what he is talking about but with regards to something very hard to find these days - actual ethics.
    All the above is all and only my opinion - all subject to change and not meant to be true for anyone else regardless of how I phrase it.

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    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    HOMELAND SECURITY TO BIOSECURITY-Corbett Report
    9/13/20
    https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/cov...o-biosecurity/
    Reviewed by Alexandra Bruce:

    "About a month ago, YouTube stopped notifying me of when my subscriptions post new videos, so I’m kind of flying blind. I would have posted James Corbett’s latest tour-de-force sooner, had I been notified.

    Here are some highlights from the transcript, which can be read in full here:https://www.corbettreport.com/covid911/



    Those paying attention will have already noted the parallels between the “War on Terror” declared after 9/11 and the “War on the Invisible Enemy” that has been declared on COVID-19…

    That so many of the people who were there at the birth of the war on terror are currently acting as midwives to the biosecurity state should come as no surprise. After all, the biosecurity paradigm is not a replacement for the terror paradigm; it is its fulfillment…

    …we find insight on this turn of events from [Italian philosopher] Giorgio Agamben, who has noted that viral epidemics are

    “above all a political concept, which is preparing to become the new terrain of world politics—or non-politics. It is possible, however, that the epidemic that we are living through will be the actualization of the global civil war that, according to the most attentive political theorists, has taken the place of traditional world wars. All nations and all peoples are now in an enduring war with themselves, because the invisible and elusive enemy with which they are struggling is within us.”

    Governments are banning gatherings and events. Instituting new screening procedures. Quarantining healthy, functioning people against their will. Tracking and surveilling every individual. Controlling their movements. Monitoring their transactions. Make no mistake: the “War on Terror” is not over. It has just greatly expanded.

    The proponents of 9/11 truth have warned for 19 years that the “War on Terror” was always a war on the public. Long pushed to the margins of the political debate, that viewpoint has been vindicated as the “terrorist” label is replaced by the “asymptomatic carrier” label and all the machinery of the police state is wielded against everyone who opposes the biosecurity takeover.

    Given that those once derided as “conspiracy theorists” have turned out to be the most prescient political observers of all, perhaps it is time to learn the real lessons from 9/11 that mainstream discourse has always excluded:

    That 9/11 and the “War on Terror” was not a war at all, but a power grab;
    That the “temporary” measures brought in to deal with an alleged “emergency” will never be relinquished;
    And, most importantly, that unless everyone who cares about this—the most blatant power grab in history—rises up, refuses to cower in fear of the invisible enemy, and reclaims their inalienable rights to freedom of movement, freedom of association and freedom of assembly, then those freedoms will be gone for good.
    This is the message of 9/11 truth: that the world was tricked into giving up their rights in the name of an endless parade of bogeymen. In reality, it was the very politicians and officials claiming to protect us from these bogeymen—the ones donning the mantle of “homeland security”—who were the greatest threat to the public. And now they are claiming we are the bogeymen, “asymptomatic carriers” of an invisible enemy,” walking and talking weapons of mass destruction who must be caged in fear forever lest the virus kills us all.

    This is a lie, and it exposes what the fearmongers are themselves afraid of: free humanity. Gathering. Talking. Working. Playing. Living.

    It is no small irony that this year’s 9/11 memorials have been disrupted by the COVID scare. The torch has well and truly passed, and the annual injunctions to “Never Forget” have been replaced by a litany of “Always Remembers.” Remember to wear your mask. Remember to stay 6 feet apart. Remember to avoid large groups. Remember to stay home.

    After 19 years, perhaps it is time to admit that 9/11 truth failed to expose the “War on Terror” lie in time to derail the homeland security agenda. But we are entering a new era, and we have a new chance to wake from this nightmare.

    Knowing this, the only question is: Will we reject the “War on the Invisible Enemy” before it’s too late?

    Whatever our choice, we better make it quickly. A Great Reset is coming."


    Or if youtube censors it, try Bitchute at: https://www.bitchute.com/video/opAyJt94Kmo/
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    While materialists look to label and define the culprit, thereby making it real, the truthers want to expose the root of the entire agenda, thereby making the virus inconsequential.

    Because this epidemic is quite selective in who gets infected, the bulk of humanity has had no experience with the illness itself and have only experienced the repercussions of the drastic response. Because they are labelled 'carriers' and a risk to those around them they become the victims of an invisible enemy that will never affect them directly. And since we are talking about at least 85% of the world's population, we are talking about a vast majority of experiences.

    Then we have those who, because they themselves are compromised or by the luck of the draw this virus has affected someone they know, the experience is direct and the threat very real.

    So the health authorities begin the massive cost of labeling, defining, curtailing, controlling, and compiling a new viral agent and its particulars. But we are not allowed to have a life again until a vaccine. And this was how it was presented from the beginning, that the new normal would have to include an interim period where we all wait for a vaccine. How was that arrived at before the true extent of its virulence had yet been determined?

    So there is the mass of humanity indirectly affected by this pathogen, and a minority with some or another direct experience. And we have a policy that came out of an international body fully formed before the epidemic even hit.

    As the true numbers come out we are getting quite a different picture of the dangers posed by this virus but the scare-mongering tactics that began early on has remained the official narrative. Because of it, as Corbett reports, we have the continuation of the security state but now on steroids.

    While the battle against the truth continues, materially we are supposedly all a little bit safer and definitely a little less free. And our repertoire of labels has grown by one...making us feel like we have mastered this scourge.

    Scientific materialism is a story. It can be true or it can be false. But scientific materialism is not against the truth, it merely makes a very early assumption that it has remained loyal to since the inception of science, which states:
    The universe is grainy. Or the more secular: All things real must be material. And secretly: There is no need for a god.

    That's it. If that is not true then scientific materialism is not truth.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)

    Scientific materialism is a story. It can be true or it can be false. But scientific materialism is not against the truth, it merely makes a very early assumption that it has remained loyal to since the inception of science, which states:
    The universe is grainy. Or the more secular: All things real must be material. And secretly: There is no need for a god.

    That's it. If that is not true then scientific materialism is not truth.
    One of the first uses of the mind is to ask "WHY?" I was talking to a friend last night who lost a loved one last week to possible medical malpractice. Certainly there were errors all along the path leading to a death at 44. She is wondering WHY did this death happen?

    She is also trying to find some solace that life is not over for her friend which leads her to call on her taught conception of GOD from her religious upbringing. This religion taught that we are not to question GOD. This POV holds that we are not able to understand and have to accept "God's Will".

    I recall from history that once the "Church" held everyone in a strangle hold and the pendulum swung to "Science" as a way to seek truth over religious fundamentalism.

    Lately science is also showing the same front of Authoritarian management. Think of how many scientists with great credentials are being maligned by other scientists when not holding a united front of "THIS is why..."

    I think the right to ask WHY is a DIVINE RIGHT of sovereign beings and the exploration a true science of our birthright as thinking/feeling beings.

    Think of ALL the paradigm wars that disallow alternative POV and IMO the underlying war is to establish who is boss over us all. We are to BOW to that authority. Religious worship and scientific DEFERENCE to authority are all about "There is a boss, some Divine Masculine KING at the pinnacle of power and YOU are not He". We just see a pendulum swing as to whom we should have as the controlers of OUR MINDS.

    I read this today in an old forum Science and Spirituality. It is from a poster David Kay. I think it had food for thought.

    Quote Rationalism and materialism seem associated. When we experience something that may or may not be supernatural, we call the materialist explanation the rational explanation.



    Rationalism received an upsurge in the Enlightenment, which tried to reduce the influence of religion. They demanded the separation of the Church and the State. It seems that rationalism is materialistic.



    Looking at it in the historical context, it seems a little more complicated. Christianity is a religion that raises more questions than it answers. Why the Divine Incarnation? The explanation for the crucifixion is that it absolved us from the sin of Adam, but how can we be absolved by an action which we did not accomplish ourselves? Why are we guilty of the sin of Adam when we did not commit it ourselves? Why did the absolving not take place immediately after the sin was committed?



    Christianity is not really satisfying to an enquiring mind, so this would cause inquisitive people to look to the study of material properties for knowledge, but there's more to it than this. Christianity was hostile to enquiring minds. There were Inquisitions to prevent it, and they acted with great cruelty. We like to think that England was a more liberal country, but a bookseller was fined for selling a copy of Thomas Pain's book The Age Of Reason. There was not freedom of thought in England.



    Intelligent people must have pondered over the questions raised by Christianity. Thomas A Kempis, in The Imitation Of Christ, says that we should not speculate about matters relating to God, because he knew of cases where this led to doubts. People must have felt angry that they could not discuss doubts openly.

    It was better to study the properties of matter because that was safe. Even theoretical science could be dangerous, as Galileo found out. It was safest to stick to mechanics. Nobody was ever hauled before an Inquisition for inventing a machine. The reason why rationalism was anti-religion was because religion was antirational. It must have seemed to a lot of people that the rational approach to religion was to kick the whole thing over. Materialism is the revenge of rationalism against religion. It acted in self defence.



    There is the question of the supernatural in religion. How does the supernatural happen?



    All patriarchal religion falters on the inability to imagine Creation as a masculine thing. Even the rationalistic religion of Hermetism had difficulty with this, and decided that the Father is beyond all conceptualisation. Logically, if this is true, then spiritual development is impossible by any method, because it implies that there is no quality in us which reflects the spirit. It requires a denial of the principle of Divine Ideas being reflected into the world, which means that it is impossible to see the world as an outer manifestation of the Divine. The world and the spirit must therefore have nothing to do with each other. It led to the belief in what is called the Clockmaker God, that is a God Who created the world, wound it up, and left it to run like a clock. In this perspective, there can be no manifestation of the supernatural in the world, and no way that ritual and ceremony can work. This made it possible for Atheists to discredit Christianity by pointing to its supernatural element. It is why the Protestants abolished the Mass, and declared the principle of transubstantiation, by which the bread is transformed into the body of Christ, to be mumbo jumbo. The hostility to ritual has led to a lot of people believing that marriage is wrong. "Why this ritual?" I am asked.



    Some Christians have gone so far as to declare priests an evil, and there are some modern sects which don't have priests.



    We are left with a religion that makes it necessary to believe many things without any reason for supposing them to be true. This makes it necessary for people to have an irrational mind to practice religion without doubt. So, when the materialists claim to have a monopoly on reason, the religious leaders do not dispute it. They urge it, because they want to discredit reason. Having reached this state, we find that the material sciences have given us explanations for things that religion did not. We come to the conclusion that science is the basis of understanding, and the basis of civilisation, ousting religion from the position of making this claim.



    And now comes Evolution. We know that the fossil record proves that Genesis is not true, but does that prove that all Creation explanations are not true? The problem is that Christianity had a monopoly on religion. If you were religious, you were Christian. If you were not Christian, you were not religious. Christianity discredited Pagan religions by making people think they were more primitive. They persuaded people that the Pagans believed the statues of the gods to be the gods. Anybody familiar with Classical religion will know this is not true, but many people believed it. Ironically, this put Christianity into an evolutionist perspective, and so gains credit for Evolutionism. It enabled Frazer, in The Golden Bough, to argue that civilisation is an evolutionary progress from magical thinking, to religious thinking, ending in scientific thinking, implying that materialism is the truth. Christianity fell victim to its own propaganda.



    The problem that Christianity has it that it cannot create an explanation of Creation by explaining that all organisms are manifestations of Divine Ideas falling into matter, and that the simpler organisms fell first to give an impression of evolution. This is consistent with the fossil record, but is not acceptable because of lack of understanding of Divine Ideas, and because Christians don't want a rival explanation to Genesis. The Christians have adapted to Evolutionism by declaring that the Bible is not literal truth, which leaves the question of Creation unresolved, and adds credence to materialism. Evolution is unquestioned, making the origin of life explained by materialism.



    In the modern world, the material sciences are the only thing that encourages enquiring minds, except for a few who read philosophy, and a few who study the occult. We think that scientists are the most intelligent people, but do not expect clerics to be more than reasonably intelligent. We look to science for the answers. Most people do not believe that meditation can lead to a higher understanding. There has been a decline in the regard for science of late, and this is accompanied by a decline in the regard for the intellect. We see that science harms the ecology and threatens the survival of life, and conclude that intellect harms the ecology. We see science and intellect as the same thing. People cannot find satisfaction for enquiring minds in religion. We are moving into the Age of Aquarius, when people will value knowledge above all. Religion must provide that if it is to survive. That requires that religion be based on the principle of Divine Ideas, which requires acceptance for the feminine nature of religion. Most people find that unacceptable. Better the end of the world.

    David Kay

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Where I am coming from

    Context is all important.


    My situation.
    I have five Grand Children all affected by coronavirus regulations and more.
    The oldest age 25 has to wear a mask to work..
    Girls 22 and 19 have had their education put on hold till now and its wear masks in corridors and no more than six people together out with school/University, two meters apart of course.

    The two youngest, just over one year old and the other just started primary school.

    Their Mum, Erin, my daughter in law, is a beautiful clever woman, from New York born and bred .
    She met my son at University in Dundee.
    Indoctrinated into a vaccine culture she has had almost seventy shots, my son three.
    Guess who will be first in line to get these kids, my flesh and blood too. Vaccinated.

    Grandparents are not listened to these days.

    Now here is a major point.

    My ex wife Ita, a nurse, has not been allowed to visit the Grand children since March.

    Why!!! because Erin fully believes that the virus is dangerous for all ages in spite of evidence that kids dont get it.
    Ita being a nurse is sure to be carrier of the virus, in Erin.s eyes

    Ita is gutted as you might expect.

    All my family are self employed and in danger of loosing these separate businesses that took years to build. They employ people – those jobs at risk.

    Any concerned Father -Grandparent would bang a drum surely?


    For myself Im nor concerned -- it will come right.
    However, the pain and suffering is very real for many.

    I have five children and was self employed virtually all my life.
    My experience of life in this field is first hand.
    I feel for those who are self employed.

    At one point in time I was elected as “The Chairman of the Highland Branch of The Federation of Self Employed “ also “Chairman of The Highland Association of Registered Care Homes.”
    The members elected me as they knew I would fight for their rights and I did till our Care Home went to the wall.
    I know what it is when you have a mortgage and children to support and no occupation.
    This is going to happen to a lot of people.

    The UK Government keeps reimposing lockdown on cases, tested by ----
    not on the mortality rate.
    This is why I have repeatedly posted about the tests, this is the one mechanism that they use to justify all their actions.

    For me this is not an intellectual discussion as to whether I posted too much or not –

    This post it is real personal experience shared
    I could say a lot more but out of respect for opposing views–will say no more

    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 15th September 2020 at 13:21.
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Science should reflect reality.
    Sometimes it discovers something unknown --but it was a reality before discovery.
    Nothing unreal exists.
    I have reposted this video as it opened my eyes to many untruths and also how Wikipedia trashes scientists reputation who come out with facts contra to materialistic "theories"
    Removing their valid qualifications.
    Same happened with those asking for further investigation into the possible link between vaccines and Autism
    Dr Wakefield for just one.

    Well worth watching to the end.
    Chris

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Reading through the quote from David Kay, it presents a kind of duality, between religion and scientific "rationalism" which holds to the material world. I'm not sure the landscape and the choices are not more complex. And reveal a "divine feminine" in the world of scientific thought as well.

    Mathematics is called the "Queen of the Sciences". It is called that by some (mostly mathematicians) because they believe it to be a pinnacle. But the original meaning is that it is wedded to the sciences but is not science itself. It has no reason to be encumbered by either physics or matter, but is necessary for the understanding of and furthering of physics. Physics deals with the material world only. Mathematics does not.

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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Greybeard, most of the below was written before your return. Welcome back. Over the weekend, my wife emptied a bookshelf on the landing, instructing me to deal with it. As if I could deal with a hundred books without looking inside One was a study on GK Chesterton, who was the closest equivalent a century ago to a popular blogger today, and to whom I have made reference in the past. Here, for you, Chris, is a quote from that book that will readily serve as an epigraph to the rest of this post:
    Quote In Manalive, Chesterton’s view of mental illness and its treatment has developed from the premisses suggested in ‘Orthodoxy’. Community can only be restored by strengthening the family to the point where it is independent of the state. Mystery can only be restored by the drastic tactics of Innocent Smith, the sane man turned outlaw. John Coates, Chesterton and the Edwardian Cultural Crisis, Hull University Press, 1984, p. 227)
    ‘So what happens when everyone turns into a conspiracy theorist?’
    Good question; there is no easy answer, which is why these are perilous times.

    Let’s get the positive stuff out of the way. Yes, we seem to have passed from the whistleblower stage to the universal conspiracy theorist stage. Why? Probably because all the work at homes have been doing a little more online research than they would have done in the office. This will pan out as many with a job to do actually performing their task a bit better. Police will investigate beyond the usual suspects, the courts will prosecute some who seemed beyond their reach. And the one parliamentarian in the UK required to launch impeachment proceedings against Johnson may be found. He has a huge majority, but the standard procedure for a huge majority is a backbench revolt, where the junior members form an opposition of their own. Since the opposition leader is a former chief prosecutor, the prospects for such an action are rather good, since any half-decent judge is looking for SUBSTANCE. If this sort of thing began happening all over the place, then it could become very interesting. I am talking about people doing the job there are paid to do, only with a little less despair, and a little more hope. An incoming tide floating all our boats at once. The role of the general public in this will be to provide the backing of public opinion and perhaps also demonstrations in the street.

    This is the future I wish for and expect: nothing spectacular at all, but somewhere down the line it will be noted that a revolution has taken place. But to get there, there are a number of considerations to be taken into account and thought through which are germane to the discussion on this thread. They relate to the opposition, which is not about to vanish overnight. If we are talking about the general public all becoming conspiracy theorists, then most of them will not have done their homework or the spiritual work done by the likes of Avalonians or whoever. This may be conceived as a brake; however, I would suggest that it is just the reverse.

    I have been hinting for some time that conspiracy theorizing is bad for you – or if you prefer, not very scientific or logical. In various ways. Let me explain further.

    Occam’s razor – a scientific concept – suggests that we avoid introducing more entities than are strictly necessary. If we apply this to language, and accept that the vast majority of speakers are not scientists, with one word for one thing or concept, then it follows that our language has far too many words describing the same things. Accordingly, it might be interesting and valuable to pare things down as far as we dare, and take it from there. No doubt some concepts that seemed miles apart will coalesce, not like poetic rhymes or metaphors, but as strict lexical synonyms.

    If we pare things right back, we have earthbound humanity in a physical environment, and with a growing mental/non-physical capacity. Nothing else is required, no alien worlds or alien people: nothing else is required In other words, we have a daytime reality, and nighttime dreams, which are somehow unreal. Hence two types of people: for one type grounded in reality, dreams are good or bad, but are kept apart. For the other type, dreams are good and spill over into reality. The dreamer becomes a sleepwalker acting out their dreams. Only for the others, these sweet dreams are nightmares. And that includes the alien worlds and alien people; and rightly so, because they are invariably engaged in warfare, local, global, interplanetary, interstellar warfare. While these others are simply living their quiet lives, looking after their family, their farm, whatever. Now if you scale things back right up, what do you find? The elite, and the conspiracy theorists, are together spouting all this dream stuff that has no grounding in reality.

    I have been quoting the hypnotherapist Jack True, who encouraged people, as one way of using their imagination, to create multiple dreams in the waking state in order to create their reality. He was doing this mostly with ordinary good people, but the fact is that the elite, on the other side of the big divide, having been doing this all along. My point is that if this is the type of enlightenment being promoted by the alternative media, then we have two possibly novel ideas to contend with. One is that the ones are merely catching up with the others, in which case they seem to be creating the conflict that they don’t want. Jack True’s ’matrix’ is constructed in exactly the same way as he proposes to escape from it. In other words, his method of giving a free rein to ‘Imagination’ has already been hijacked by the other side.

    The other idea is that we now have billions of dreamers, and just a few long-term experts. Given human evolution over millennia, the wildest dreams of the experts are now our worst nightmares, and yet they are being sleepwalked into our current reality. The problem then becomes, how do we wake up, and revert to purely daytime encounters with hard reality, away from all the dreaming?

    I suggested we had too many lexical items, making for some unlikely synonyms. Dreaming, nightmares, fascism, nihilism, AI, we are making all kinds of distinctions that are not leading to greater clarity but on the contrary are muddying the water. One example of where this process leads is the idea of ‘strategic relocation’ on this forum. We are all attached to some part of the planet through birth and perhaps other defining moments in life: we are where we are for good reasons. One synonym for ‘strategic relocation’ might be ‘head for the hills’, another ‘western migration’. You get into the impossible tangle whereby for example xenophobic johnsonism leads to Brexit because of foreign immigration, and the answer is to… apply for an EU passport and emigrate.

    What we are seeing, as I have hinted at many times before, is that conspiracy theory is actually enabling the cabal to create its nightmare world. In other words, it is itself that part of the nightmare that is leaking out into reality; call it perhaps lucid dreaming, but so far it has not changed anything much. On the contrary, it has been magnifying and empowering the diabolical death wish in every conceivable direction, in space and time. The entire Cosmos is at war and has been so for eons. Every civilization on earth has now been brought into the picture, not just those that have left traces, but others before them that have not such as Atlantis or Lemuria. Another word for the nightmare is madness, and uncovering all this stuff is part of the madness. The road to sanity is through people who have been awake all along and trying to keep the sleepwalkers out of (self-)harm’s way. These are the only ‘aliens’ required, who are not aliens at all, being fully human except for the madness.

    The way forward, then, is to minimize everything as much as possible. What we actually know of the Cosmos, beyond our wild imaginings is very little: a few photons through a telescope and reams of complex mathematics to turn it into something huge. If this works like PCR, then that sounds about right. Here is a more trivial example. When the English in the 19th century codified the game of soccer, for some years the Old Etonians were the best team. They were ‘world-beaters’, except that the world in question was no bigger than little England. Now imagine the likes of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Cameron taking on Real Madrid or Liverpool, and you will get the idea as to how far humanity has progressed in a very short time. Or, looking through the other end of the telescope, just how primitive it was still when some of our grandparents were alive.

    The idea then is that the huge monster of the nightmare is a figment of the imagination, to be brought down to actual size in the light of day. In the novel Perelandra (see this post). C.S. Lewis goes back to the earliest Adam-and-Eve conditions, when his hero discovers that all he has to do to eliminate the ‘all-powerful’ Satan from Venus is to engage in hand-to-hand combat with, and kill, a middle-aged academic like himself; something small enough to be doable and yet hugely significant. It is a man-sized target and, like many modern sportsmen facing defeat, he is able to do a little more than he thought possible – that is all that is required. We are looking for champions, not GOATs (greatest of all time), just winners.

    A stitch in time saves nine. We have reached the point where nine stitches may be necessary, but at least we can save the garment. We are not fighting some Cosmic Devil, we are simply at the next stage in our evolution where honest people will have an opportunity to assert themselves in small, natural ways as I described above. Some people in high places need to go to jail. They have taken incompetence to new heights by recording their own misdeeds for purposes of bribery with the side-effect of building up a conclusive case for their conviction. The same goes for government ministers brazenly admitting to parliament that they want to tear up an international agreement they signed for themselves only last year. We have a justice and law enforcement system in place to deal with them. To state that ‘everyone turns into a conspiracy theorist’ is simply one way of saying that the zeitgeist is favourable to that actually occurring, meaning that those with real power are now in a position to wield it effectively.

    You see that no Hegelian Dialectics are needed. Why? Because the antithesis being ‘nothing’, the synthesis is merely a reiteration of the thesis.
    The ‘bottom line’, or should I say, world view, that may be drawn from the above is that, yes we are living in a matrix, the way a trainee pilot is living in a matrix in a flight simulator. That way, when he discovers a glitch in his performance or in the hardware, no lives are lost, no irretrievable damage is done. But that is simply from a personnel training viewpoint. Taking this further, you have the situation of Human Species x.0: some technicians will be trained to see what, if anything, can go wrong. From the standpoint of the ordinary human, this would resemble the devil incarnate. And yet, from the viewpoint of a developer of a viable species, there is strictly no evil intended or involved, and no one out to eat us!

    Below the ‘bottom line’, then, what do we have? We have a safety net, which is the exact opposite of original sin. We can do no wrong, beyond what has already been documented over eons. What we can do is reveal unexpected potential leading to Human Species x.1. To do that, we need to relax, meaning for starters, release the hand brake

    The above, as always, is posted somewhat as stream of consciousness; i.e. before logical appraisal sets in to disturb the thought. My apologies for loss of clarity.
    Last edited by araucaria; 16th September 2020 at 07:45.


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    Default Re: Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

    Quote In Manalive, Chesterton’s view of mental illness and its treatment has developed from the premisses suggested in ‘Orthodoxy’. Community can only be restored by strengthening the family to the point where it is independent of the state. Mystery can only be restored by the drastic tactics of Innocent Smith, the sane man turned outlaw. John Coates, Chesterton and the Edwardian Cultural Crisis, Hull University Press, 1984, p. 227)

    Thanks for this araucaria

    Family so important
    At the beginning of this virus situation my Ex Ita thought I was a conspiracy theorist and smiled at me.
    At that time the local hospital was virtually empty to make way for Virus cases -- there were very few.

    She is a bank nurse and got no shifts for months, no patients no essential operations.
    No income.
    Then the hospital got busy with non covad cases.
    Ita had to wear a mask -- super fit --she collapsed reduced oxygen intake.
    She compared notes with other nurse -- not just in Inverness.
    Same story. You wont see this in the media.

    Then she watched the Professor Dolores Cahill video of her talk in Ireland.
    Ita is from Dublin.
    I did not give her the video --a nursing friend suggested it.

    I found way back the last person to try to convince a woman is her husband especially an Ex.

    She was totally convinced of the validity of what Professor Cahill was saying that she booked to go to the demonstration in Edinburgh which was rather larger than the press made out.

    The Cabal would try to divide and conquer especially in families and friends labelling some as conspiracy theorists.

    Thankfully my family is sound.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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