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    United States Avalon Member RunningDeer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story


    Bill care to address this accusation by Kevin Moore? It's been addressed elsewhere on the forum. I ask this for the new members.
    @32ish minutes: Project Avalon is looking into the private messages of its users. This possibly could be done by some of Bill’s moderators, but definitely is being done by Bill Ryan as well.
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 20th September 2020 at 15:48.

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)

    Bill care to address this accusation by Kevin Moore? It's been addressed elsewhere. I ask this for the new members.
    @32ish minutes: Project Avalon is looking into the private messages of its users. This possibly could be done by some of Bill’s moderators, but definitely is being done by Bill Ryan as well.
    Yes, many thanks, and that's easy to address.

    It's a smear-rumor that's just never quite ever gone away. And I have NO idea who originally started it, or when or why.

    We don't read members' PMs, and can't, and never have.
    And wouldn't even if we could!

    It can be done with a special plugin, as best I understand. But we don't have that installed.

    As best I recall, Ilie Pandia (who was our senior admin for many years, and a genuine expert on vBulletin, the software platform we use) said that Richard (Avalon's admin back in 2010-11) did have that installed in his era. And if so, we don't know if he ever used it or not. But then Ilie UNinstalled it immediately he discovered it.

    To confirm this — if anyone reading this doesn't trust me and needs any other reassurance! — any of our current administrators (Tommy, Frank V, Franny or Tintin) can look on our admin control panel to see what plugins we have installed, and what each of them do. Frank, who's very familiar with the system and is here every day, may be very happy to say something about all this.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 20th September 2020 at 15:18.

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    I'd let Bill answer, but from everything that I'm aware of, and from what I saw when I was briefly a mod, that was definitely not happening. I'm very certain it is actually impossible for anyone to read another member's PMs - even Admins. A preposterous allegation.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)

    Bill care to address this accusation by Kevin Moore? It's been addressed elsewhere. I ask this for the new members.
    @32ish minutes: Project Avalon is looking into the private messages of its users. This possibly could be done by some of Bill’s moderators, but definitely is being done by Bill Ryan as well.

    If you don't mind, Paula, then I would like to address that in Bill's stead.

    As most of you will already know by now ─ from having seen us mention it on several technical threads ─ Project Avalon is running the vBulletin forum engine, and for that matter, an already old version of vBulletin. The vBulletin platform as it ships from its developers is pretty bare-bones. However, the developers did include a so-called "hooks" system, which is a programming interface that can be used by third-party developers for writing plugins for vBulletin.

    In and of itself, vBulletin does not offer any staff member the ability to read the private messages of other members. But a plugin for doing so has indeed already been created ─ or that is to say, there may actually be multiple such plugins, but we know of only one.

    You may even wonder why such a plugin was developed in the first place, but this was not for the ominous reasons that people might suspect. On the contrary, the vBulletin platform is used quite a lot as the engine behind corporate support forums, as well as various other types of forums, and the plugin for viewing members' private messages was developed for in the event that someone might be abusing the private messaging system for truly nefarious purposes, such as threatening, spreading child pornography, et al. In such cases, the plugin in question could offer legal evidence.

    The above all said...


    Project Avalon does not have any such plugin installed, nor will we ever do this


    ... and we are all adamantly against that. In fact, Bill himself recalled that former administrator Richard did have the plugin installed ─ for legal purposes, most likely ─ and Bill found out about this when Richard left and Ilie Pandia took over from him. Ilie was a bona fide vBulletin developer, and he discovered this plugin in the forum installation. Bill then immediately told Ilie to remove the plugin, and he did.

    I am an administrator here. If such a plugin were installed here, then I'd know about it. Besides, as I said already, we are all ethically opposed to it.
    Last edited by Frank V; 20th September 2020 at 15:25. Reason: typos

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Back to Picasso.
    Someone with no particular interest in art WILL think it is all about money and investment, but for someone whose interest in art is equivalent to yours in politics, UFOs or whatever, it is all about art! You’d be amazed how much art historians can deduce even from some obscure drawing. They are trying to piece together the bigger picture of who and what a given artist was and was doing, just as we are doing here with con artists and others. Asking whether or not Picasso drew this is exactly the same thing, in these days of fake news and faked videos, as asking whether or not Donald Trump made this or that outrageous statement. If you are trying to build up a picture of Trump as a major asset to humanity, then you will wish to believe and would welcome evidence tending to show that he did not.

    To take a reverse instance, when Edgar Degas died, his brother removed and destroyed most of his drawings of brothel scenes, as being too pornographic for the positive image of the artist that he wished to create or maintain. Had they come to light, he would have had to denounce them as forgeries, which they were not. What if anything is to be concluded from their existence, non-existence or destruction is not relevant here. The bottom line is simply that the more we know about something the more we can understand. A wrong attribution or interpretation can destroy someone’s reputation. We all make mistakes, sometimes big ones, not always in bad faith. One big mistake is seeking to cash in on other people’s.

    The lesson here is in seeing that if you can have this false, or partially false, view of art as being all about investment and money laundering, then other people are going to dispute your own higher motives for doing whatever you are doing. If it is say alternative research, then there is this huge gap to be bridged in order to reach these people.


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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    I can't help but wonder what an artsy fartsy, big city slicker art collector like Emile Wolf, was doing wandering around Ghana with a then unknown charcoal drawing from Picasso, in the first place.
    I have no idea! I was only 5 or 6 years old at the time.
    This is speculation on my part, but Picasso was inspired by African art and sculpture and is an artist who might be described as being a "Primitivist". Also, African art became quite collectable in the 60s and 70s and I am sure that many savy gallery owners visited West Africa at this time to acquire such art and were able to see it for a tremendous profit back in Europe or North America. Knowing that people do sometimes barter instead of receiving cash payments, he may have bought the print with him to trade.

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    It is a shame that computers have altered art the way it has.

    Of course, there are some amazing computer artists and if you consider the colour and composition in some of their work then you can see the talent. If their picture was displayed hanging on a wall, it would have a different impact..

    Looking at the pictures only on a monitor is probably why some people might feel that computer art is not as good as art produced prior to the home computer age.

    Another thing lacking (imho of course) is the changing of the styles. Impressionism, cubism, etc,...we have "computer art". New styles are explored based upon the release of new art software.

    Similar to electronic music - the electronic musician is hoping to be one of the few to take advantage of the release of new electronic music software.

    How times change....am I now being one of those people who does not like the changes (or lack of change is some cases).

    Or am I missing or just not seeing "what's new"?

    I think the economy - or capitalism - has affected the arts in a bad way.

    Where are "the movements" in art and music these days? How do you find it?

    I am sorry - I have gone on a rant and slipped away from the thread.

    Actually, maybe I can reel it back in.

    The problem Bill faced - if I have it correct - is that the picture could not be proven to be an original. But compared to current artwork on computers I believe it would be much easier to identify the Piccaso than someone's PC art. I think it would be easier to mess around with a pic on a computer to identify who did it as opposed to an original signed pencil or charcoal
    drawing.
    Last edited by Patient; 20th September 2020 at 18:32.

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Kryztian (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    I can't help but wonder what an artsy fartsy, big city slicker art collector like Emile Wolf, was doing wandering around Ghana with a then unknown charcoal drawing from Picasso, in the first place.
    I have no idea! I was only 5 or 6 years old at the time.
    This is speculation on my part, but Picasso was inspired by African art and sculpture and is an artist who might be described as being a "Primitivist". Also, African art became quite collectable in the 60s and 70s and I am sure that many savy gallery owners visited West Africa at this time to acquire such art and were able to see it for a tremendous profit back in Europe or North America. Knowing that people do sometimes barter instead of receiving cash payments, he may have bought the print with him to trade.
    Yes, of course, very interesting, why didn’t I think of that? Even today African art is dirt cheap. Maybe the immense favour by Mr Ryan senior was to supply some artefact(s) in exchange – although of course a small child might think he had saved him from a crocodile-infested river or something.


    The Picasso turns out to be pretty valuable, although he later used these things to pay restaurant bills etc. The original favour may have been equally small. The problem with art is that we fetichize it: make it far bigger than it really is. Which goes for many other things in life, most notably perhaps, conspiracy theory
    Last edited by araucaria; 20th September 2020 at 18:11.


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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Patient (here)
    The problem Bill faced - if I have it correct - is that the picture could not be proven to be an original. But compared to current artwork on computers I believe it would be much easier to identify the Piccaso than someone's PC art. I think it would be easier to mess around with a pic on a computer to identify who did it as opposed to an original signed pencil or charcoal
    drawing.
    It’s a bit more complicated than that. I don’t know much about computer artwork, but the problems (or maybe not) we are talking about are to do with freehand art – very free hand in some cases. Take Banksy copying Monet: https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...thebys-auction He illustrates the thesis of an essay by Leo Steinberg, ‘The Glorious Company’, whose several chapters – Rustling, The Stainless Steal, The Cover-up, and Caconomasia – illustrate the central thesis:
    Quote Whatever else art is good for, its chief effectiveness lies in propagating more art. Or: Of all the things art has an impact on, art is the most susceptible and responsive. All art is infested by other art.
    I would suggest that, whatever our field of activity, we all take note. X reads a book, and then writes a book, which inspires reader Y to write another. Now, for ‘book’, read ‘forum post’, or whatever. Rupert Sheldrake’ s morphic resonance is based on a hundred monkeys copying each other, until every monkey is doing the same thing. Terence McKenna’s 2012 event was supposed to be a moment of maximum novelty. Of course art is infested; but real art lies in its novelty. But of course, novelty doesn’t come like a bolt from the blue: fire – the technology, as opposed to the natural phenomenon of lightning – was discovered by rubbing two dry old sticks together.

    Originality is over-rated: who cares who discovered fire, invented the wheel, did this drawing...

    PS: If ever you see a print signed ‘Piccaso’, don’t buy it!


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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    I trust and love you bill..there I said it 😁xx

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Bill,

    You appear to have been operating in good faith with what would have been judged as proper authentification at the time the drawing was given to your father.

    The whole matter of authenticity has come under increased scrutiny in the last 20 years, with much much more money at stake than a mere 105,000.00 I am certain some innocent parties have been wiped out completely and I don't know if insurance companies are equipped to deal with all the ins and outs, as the process of authenticity requires more and more proof.

    Lisa, the gallery owner, claims she refunded the purchaser but received no insurance money to cover her losses. This seems perfectly believable. It's also perfectly believable that you would have figured she was insured. She would have to prove to the court that she wasn't insured I imagine, before the case against you proceeded.

    So, I guess, as she suggested on the video, paying her off slowly, month by month, would be the way to go. Just a suggestion. I am in no way, biased towards a gallery owner I have never met, over you, I just think it is best to be as much on the up and up as humanly possible, or this thing is going to follow you around like a bed smell.

    Take care, Bill. I am so sorry you are going through this.

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Seems to me that if the gallery owner has the drawing again, then all is settled. She bought a drawing with a COA from that expert, she did not buy a drawing with a COA from Picasso's daughter. Now if Bill had given her a forged COA from Picasso's daughter, that would be fraud. But she still has the drawing with the COA she purchased. She can still try to sell it on with the COA from the expert, with full disclosure, perhaps at a loss.

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Lisa, the gallery owner, claims she refunded the purchaser but received no insurance money to cover her losses. This seems perfectly believable. It's also perfectly believable that you would have figured she was insured. She would have to prove to the court that she wasn't insured I imagine, before the case against you proceeded.
    Yes, I'm certainly prepared to believe Lisa's on-record statement that she had no insurance. I really did think she must have had, and I was assured that by a friend who knew the art world quite well. ("Of course she was insured", I was told. "All art dealers are.")

    For the record, Kevin emailed me exactly this last night, and he said I could quote it if it was 100% unaltered. I told him I'd be happy to respond on the thread, as I have here.
    LISA THE ART DEALER WAS NEVER COMPENSATED BY ANY INSURANCE STOP LIEING YOU HEARD HER ON THE PHONE SHE WAS COVEERED BY NOTHING YOU RIPPED HER OFF BY NOT TRYING TO PAY HER BACK YOU LIER

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Lisa, the gallery owner, claims she refunded the purchaser but received no insurance money to cover her losses. This seems perfectly believable. It's also perfectly believable that you would have figured she was insured. She would have to prove to the court that she wasn't insured I imagine, before the case against you proceeded.
    Yes, I'm certainly prepared to believe Lisa's on-record statement that she had no insurance. I really did think she must have had, and I was assured that by a friend who knew the art world quite well. ("Of course she was insured", I was told. "All art dealers are.")

    For the record, Kevin emailed me exactly this last night, and he said I could quote it if it was 100% unaltered. I told him I'd be happy to respond on the thread, as I have here.
    LISA THE ART DEALER WAS NEVER COMPENSATED BY ANY INSURANCE STOP LIEING YOU HEARD HER ON THE PHONE SHE WAS COVEERED BY NOTHING YOU RIPPED HER OFF BY NOT TRYING TO PAY HER BACK YOU LIER
    Good lord, this guy certainly knows how to hate, if not how to spell.

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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Lisa, the gallery owner, claims she refunded the purchaser but received no insurance money to cover her losses. This seems perfectly believable. It's also perfectly believable that you would have figured she was insured. She would have to prove to the court that she wasn't insured I imagine, before the case against you proceeded.
    Yes, I'm certainly prepared to believe Lisa's on-record statement that she had no insurance. I really did think she must have had, and I was assured that by a friend who knew the art world quite well. ("Of course she was insured", I was told. "All art dealers are.")

    For the record, Kevin emailed me exactly this last night, and he said I could quote it if it was 100% unaltered. I told him I'd be happy to respond on the thread, as I have here.
    LISA THE ART DEALER WAS NEVER COMPENSATED BY ANY INSURANCE STOP LIEING YOU HEARD HER ON THE PHONE SHE WAS COVEERED BY NOTHING YOU RIPPED HER OFF BY NOT TRYING TO PAY HER BACK YOU LIER
    I know enough about debt collection to say that the worst thing Bill could do is send Lisa a partial payment. Perhaps that's why Kevin is trying to get Bill to do that. That would be an acknowledgement that the debt was valid. Debt collectors trying to collect an old debt will try to get a payment of a dollar. That starts the credit cycle again and puts the debt back on the credit report. A defaulted debt should stay in default or be negotiated for a lower, paid-in-full, payment. But I doubt Bill owes Lisa anything. She got exactly what she paid for, not the bargain she thought she could double her money on.

    I'm glad Kevin is using a video format because it's clear he's not very literate.

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  31. Link to Post #36
    United States Avalon Member Strat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)
    Bill care to address this accusation by Kevin Moore?
    As Bill posted previously (in a different thread) I wanted to leave my guide/moderator position and return as a normal member. You know what position I'd love to have: Avalon press secretary.


    Joking aside, again, don't feed the trolls. Oh and this isn't a shot at you, you're truly one of my favorite members. If you're ever in FL I'll show you the Timucua trails you'd love it.
    That's life, and I can't deny it
    Many times I thought of cuttin' out but my heart won't buy it

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    UK Avalon Member sunwings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    So when Maya Picasso disavowed it, despite Dr Mallen's certificate of authenticity, the sketch was "burned".
    The letter sent to Lisa from Maya Picasso simply read "I already responded and responded again that I do not believe this is the work of my father's hand. Sorry."

    My father left me a gold watch when he died. It has a certificate of authentification from a Jewellers in Liverpool dated 1979 (which I don't fully trust). I also may have to sell it one day to pay my debts. But if I did sell it, then some years later the buyer wanted a refund for whatever reason I would feel under no obligation to do so.

    This could be cultural but in England when selling a car for example, you get the buyer to sign a paper saying SOLD AS SEEN! When Bill´s father accepted the painting he also took on the risk of the painting being worthless. That risk was then passed onto Lisa, BUT in an honest way! The painting could be an original Picasso, it could be a fake but it´s caused a domino effect of problems for sure!

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  35. Link to Post #38
    Canada Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    But I doubt Bill owes Lisa anything. She got exactly what she paid for, not the bargain she thought she could double her money on.

    No, TomKat,

    Lisa obviously didn't get what she paid for if Picasso's daughter is to be believed. I am in no way trying to undercut Bill here, just wanting to see the situation clearly, putting myself in the shoes of both Bill and Lisa. I think Bill has indicated, more or less, that the debt is valid, with many extenuating circumstances. There is no need to cast aspersions on Lisa's character. She's as innocent a victim in the weird world of art authenticity as Bill is.

    You definitely want to stick up for your friends, but sometimes the best way to stick up for them is to help them find a path out of a situation that doesn't demonize anybody. That just adds adrenaline to a legal matter that lawyers feed on.

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    United States Avalon Member RunningDeer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    If you're ever in FL I'll show you the Timucua trails you'd love it.
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 20th September 2020 at 22:42.

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  39. Link to Post #40
    Canada Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Bill's Picasso story

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Lisa, the gallery owner, claims she refunded the purchaser but received no insurance money to cover her losses. This seems perfectly believable. It's also perfectly believable that you would have figured she was insured. She would have to prove to the court that she wasn't insured I imagine, before the case against you proceeded.
    Yes, I'm certainly prepared to believe Lisa's on-record statement that she had no insurance. I really did think she must have had, and I was assured that by a friend who knew the art world quite well. ("Of course she was insured", I was told. "All art dealers are.")

    For the record, Kevin emailed me exactly this last night, and he said I could quote it if it was 100% unaltered. I told him I'd be happy to respond on the thread, as I have here.
    LISA THE ART DEALER WAS NEVER COMPENSATED BY ANY INSURANCE STOP LIEING YOU HEARD HER ON THE PHONE SHE WAS COVEERED BY NOTHING YOU RIPPED HER OFF BY NOT TRYING TO PAY HER BACK YOU LIER
    Oh my Dog, that man has Dyslexia, or something! Is he angry because you booted him off the forum for arguing over tangential minutiae, with some other equally side tracked party on a thread about a murderer?

    The thread became a tangled mess composed of verbal silly string. Yeah, I remember that thread. I'm still picking the gunk out of my hair. And that set him on this weird personal vendetta? Hmmm. Some people are kind of obsessive.

    I totally get that you believed she was insured. I would have thought the same, had I been you.

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