+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: The end of reality

  1. Link to Post #1
    Canada Avalon Member kfm27917's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th June 2019
    Location
    Garymede
    Language
    German
    Posts
    194
    Thanks
    3,136
    Thanked 1,056 times in 177 posts

    Default The end of reality

    In 1888, the year before he went insane, Friedrich Nietzsche wrote the following in Twilight of the Idols:
    We have got rid of the real world: what world is left? The apparent world perhaps? ... But no! Along with the real world we've done away with the apparent world as well.
    So, if you feel you also may be going insane in the present climate of digital screen life, where real is unreal but realer than real, the apparent is cryptic, and up is down, true is false, and what you see you don't, it has a history.

    One hundred and thirty-two years ago, Nietzsche added that "something extraordinarily nasty and evil is about to make its debut." We know it did, and the bloody butcher's bench known as the twentieth century was the result. Nihilism stepped onto center stage and has been the star of the show ever since, straight through to 2020.

    Roberto Calasso puts it this way in Literature and the Gods:
    Here we are, announces Nietzsche, and it would be hard not to hear a mocking ring in his voice. We thought we were living in a world where the fog had lifted, a disenchanted, ascertainable, verifiable world.

    And instead everything has gone back to being a 'fable' again. How are we to get our bearings [...] This is the paralysis, the peculiar uncertainty of modern times, a paralysis that all since have experienced.
    Obviously, we haven't gotten our bearings. We are far more adrift today on a stormy electronic sea where the analogical circle of life has been replaced by the digital, and "truths" like numbers click into place continuously to lead us in wrong, algorithm-controlled directions.

    The trap is almost closed.

    Of course, Nietzsche did not have the Internet, but he lived at the dawn of the electric era, when space-time transformations were occurring at a rapid pace. Inventions such as photography, the phonograph, the telephone, electricity, etc. were contracting space and time and a disembodied "reality" was being born.

    With today's Internet and digital screen life, the baby is full-grown and completely disembodied. It does nothing but look at its image that is looking back into a lifeless void, whose lost gaze can't figure out what it's seeing.

    Take, for example, the phonograph, invented by Thomas Edison in 1878. If you could record a person's voice, and if that person died, were you then listening to the voice of a living person or one who was dead? If the person whose voice was recorded was alive and was miles away, you had also compressed earthly space.

    The phonograph suppressed absence, conjured ghosts, and seemed to overcome time and death as it captured the flow of time in sound. It allowed a disembodied human voice to inhabit a machine, an early example of downloading.

    "Two ruling ambitions in modern technology," writes John Durham Peters in his wonderful book, Speaking into the Air, "appear in the phonograph: the creation of artificial life and the conjuring of the dead."

    Many people started to hear voices, and these people were not called deluded. Soon, with the arrival of cinema, they would see ghosts as well.

    Today, speaking ghosts are everywhere, hiding in hand-held devices. It's Halloween all year round as we are surrounded by electronic zombies in a screen culture.

    This technological annihilation of space and time that was happening at a frenetic pace was the material background to Nietzsche's thought. His philosophical and epistemological analyses emerged from German intellectual life of his time as well, where theologians and philosophers were discovering that knowledge was relative and had to be understood in situ, i.e., within its historical and social place or context.

    Without going into abstruse philosophical issues here, suffice it to say, Nietzsche was suggesting that not only was God dead because people killed him, but that knowledge was a fiction that changed over time and was a human construction.

    All knowledge, not just science, had to be taken "as if" it were true. This was a consoling mental trick but falsely reassuring, for most people could not accept this, since "knowledge" was a protection racket from pain and insanity. It still is.

    In other words, not only had people murdered God, but they had slain absolutes as well. This left them in the lurch, not knowing if what they knew and believed were really true, or sort of true - maybe, perhaps. The worm of uncertainty had entered modern thought through modern thought.

    While the average person did not delve into these revolutionary ideas, they did, through the inventions that were entering their lives, and the news about Darwin, science, religion, etc., realize, however vaguely, that something very strange and dramatic was underway. Life was passing from substance to shadow because of human ingenuity.

    It is similar to what so many feel today: that reality and truth are moving beyond their grasp as technological forces that they voluntarily embrace push everyday life towards some spectral denouement.

    An inhuman, trans-human, on-line electronic life where everything is a parody of everything that preceded it, like an Andy Warhol copy of a copy of a Campbell's soup can with a canned mocking laugh track that keeps repeating itself.

    All this follows from the nineteenth-century relativization of knowledge, or what at least was taken as such, for to say all knowledge is relative is an absolute statement. That contradiction goes to the heart of our present dilemma.

    This old feeling of lostness is perhaps best summarized in a few lines from Mathew Arnold's 19th century poem, Dover Beach:
    The Sea of Faith
    Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
    Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
    But now I only hear
    Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
    Retreating, to the breath
    Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
    And naked shingles of the world.
    But that was then. Today, the Joker's sardonic laughter would suffice.

    *

    I am sitting outside as I write, sipping a glass of wine before dinner. Although New England fall weather is approaching, a nasty mosquito is buzzing around my head. I hear it. I am in killer mode since these bastards love to bite me. This is real life. If I went into the house and connected to the Internet on the computer screen - news, social media, anything - I would be entering another dimension.

    Screen life, not real life. The society of the spectacle. No real mosquitoes, no wine, no trees swaying in the evening breeze.

    In his novel, The Sun Also Rises, written between Nietzsche's time and now, Ernest Hemingway, a man who surely lived in the physical world, writes of how Robert Cohn, the boxing champion from Princeton University, wants Jake Barnes, the book's protagonist, to take a trip with him to South America.

    As they sit and talk in Paris, Barnes says no, and tells Cohn, "All countries look just like the moving pictures."

    Whether Hemingway was being ironic or not, or simply visionary, I don't know. For in the 1920s, before passports and widespread tourism, there were many places you could only see if you traveled to them and they would never appear in moving pictures, while today there is almost no place that is not available to view beforehand on the internet or television.

    So why go anywhere if you've already seen it all on a screen? Why travel to nowhere or to where you have already been?

    Déjà vu all over again, as Yogi Berra put it and everyone laughed. Now the laugh is on us.

    *

    This is neither an argument nor a story. It's real. I am trying to get my bearings in a disorienting situation. Call it a compass, a weather-vane, a prayer. You can call me Al or Ishmael. Call me crazy. Perhaps this writing is just an "as if."

    *

    About fifteen years ago, I was teaching at a college where most communication was done via email. I was, as they say, out of the loop since I didn't do email. I was often asked why I didn't, and I would repeatedly reply, like Melville's Bartleby, because "I prefer not to."

    Finally, in order to keep my job, I succumbed and with the laptop computer they provided me, I went "on-line." There were 6,954.7 emails in my in-box from the past three years. In those three years, I had performed all my duties scrupulously and hadn't missed a beat.

    Someone showed me how to delete the emails, which I did without reading any, but I had entered the labyrinth. I went electronic. My reality changed. I am still searching for Ariadne's thread.

    *

    But I am not yet a machine and refuse the invitation to become one. It's a very insistent invitation, almost an order. Neil Postman (Oh such a rich surname!) sums it up well in Technopoly: The Surrender of Culture to Technology:
    The fundamental metaphorical message of the computer, in short, is that we are machines - thinking machines, to be sure, but machines nonetheless. It is for this reason that the computer is the quintessential, incomparable, near-perfect machine for Technopoly. It subordinates the claims of our nature, our biology, our emotions, our spirituality.

    The computer claims sovereignty over the whole range of human experience, and supports its claim by showing that it 'thinks' better than we can...John McCarthy, the inventor of the term 'artificial intelligence'...claims that 'even machines as simple as thermostats can be said to have beliefs...

    What is significant about this response is that it has redefined the meaning of the word 'belief'...rejects the view that humans have internal states of mind that are the...foundation of belief and argues instead that 'belief' means only what someone or something does...rejects the idea that the mind is a biological phenomenon...In other words, what we have here is a case of metaphor gone mad.
    Postman wrote that in 1992, before the computer and the internet became ubiquitous and longer before on-line living had become de rigueur - before it was being shoved down our throats as it is today under the cover of COVID-19.

    There is little doubt that we are being pushed to embrace what Klaus Schwab, the Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum (WEF), calls COVID-19:The Great Reset, that involves a total acceptance of the electronic, on-line life.

    On-line learning, on-line news, on-line everything - only an idiot (from Greek idiotes, a private person who pays no attention to public affairs) would fail to see what is being promoted. And who controls the electronic life and internet? Not you, not I, but the powers that be, the intelligence agencies and the power elites.

    Goodbye body, goodbye blood - "I don't think we should ever shake hands ever again, to be honest with you," said Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) in support of human estrangement.

    Peter Koenig, one of the most astute investigators of this propaganda effort, puts it this way:
    The panacea of the future will be crowned by the Pearl of the Fourth Industrialization - Artificial intelligence (AI). It will be made possible by a 5G electromagnetic field, allowing the Internet of Things (IoT). Schwab and Malleret [Schwab's co-author] won't say, beware, there is opposition.

    5G could still be blocked. The 5G existence and further development is necessary for surveillance and control of humanity, by digitizing everything, including human identity and money.

    It will be so simple, no more cash, just electronic, digital money - that is way beyond the control of the owner, the truthful earner of the money, as it can be accessed by the Global Government and withheld and / or used for pressuring misbehaving citizens into obeying the norms imposed from above.

    You don't behave according to our norms, no money to buy food, shelter and health services, we let you starve. No more travel. No more attending public events. You'll be put gradually in your own solitary confinement.

    The dictatorial and tyrannical global commandeering by digital control of everything is the essence of the 4th Age of Industrialization - highly promoted by the WEF's Great Reset.
    *

    Like everything, of course, this push to place life under the aegis of cyberspace has a history, one that deifies the machine and attempts to convince people that they too are machines without existential freedom.

    Thus the ongoing meme pumped out for the past three decades has been that we are controlled by our brains and that the brain is a computer and vice versa. Brain research has received massive government funding. Drugs have been offered as the solution to every human problem.

    So-called diseases and disorders have been created through the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) and matched to pharmaceutical drugs (or the revers) for scandalous profits. And the mind has been reduced to a figment of deluded imaginations. People are machines; that's the story, marvelous machines. They have no freedom.


    Comment: In a way, the "Masters of the Universe" are correct there. People are inherently machine-like, in their thinking patterns and behavior. But the elites' response to that understanding was, and is, baroque, contradictory, and morose.


    If one wishes an example of techno-fascism, there is one from the art world. Back in the 1920s and 1930s there was an art movement known as Futurism. Its leader proponent was an Italian Fascist, friend of Mussolini, Filippo Tommaso Marinetti.

    The futurists claimed that all life revolves around the machine, that the machine was god, that it was beyond human control and had to be obeyed. They extolled war and speed and claimed that humans were no more significant than stones.

    Patriotism, militarism, strength, method, and the kingdom of experts were their blueprint for a corporate fascist state. The human eye and mind would be re-educated to automatically obey the machine's dictates.

    Now we have cyberspace, digital machines, and the internet, an exponential extension of the machine world of the 1930s and the rise of Mussolini, Fascism, and Hitler. That this online world is being pushed as the new and future normal by trans-national elite forces should not be surprising.

    If human communication becomes primarily digitally controlled on-line and on screens, those who control the machines will have achieved the most powerful means of mind control ever invented. That will be MKULTRA on a vast scale. Surveillance will be complete.

    Yes, there are places on the internet where truth is and will be told, such as this site where you are reading this; but as we can see from today's growing censorship across the web, those power elites and intelligence forces who control the companies that do their bidding will narrow the options for dissenting voices.

    Such censorship starts slowly, and then when one looks again, it is a fait accompli. The frog in the pan of slowly heating cold water never realizes it is being killed until it is too late. Free speech is now being strangled. Censorship is widespread.

    The purpose of so much internet propaganda is to confuse, obsess, depress, and then repress the population. The overlords accomplish this by the "peculiar linking together of opposites - knowledge with ignorance, cynicism with fanaticism - [which] is one of the chief distinguishing marks of Oceanic society," writes Orwell in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    "The official ideology abounds with contradictions even where there is no practical reason for them." One look into one's life will suffice to see how the overlords have set people against each other.

    It's a classic tactic. Divide and conquer. Trump vs. Biden, Democrats vs. Republicans, whites vs. blacks, liberals vs. conservatives. Pure mind games. Contradictions every day to create social disorientation. Orwell describes Doublethink as follows [author's emphasis]:
    Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated.

    The process has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt...To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies - all this is indispensably necessary...If one is to rule, and to continue ruling, one must be able to dislocate the sense of reality.
    Nietzsche said that along with the real world we have done away with the apparent as well. Digital online life has accomplished that. It has allowed the rulers - through the media who are the magicians who serve them - to create counterfeit news and doctored videos at will, to present diametrically opposed points of view within the same paragraph, and to push breaking news items so fast that no one half-way sane could keep up with their magic shows.

    Nietzsche obviously didn't foresee this technology, but he sensed the madness that the relativity of knowledge and the technology of his day would usher in.

    *

    The popular 1990s term "Information Superhighway," meaning the internet and all digital telecommunications, was the perfect term to describe this lunacy. Get on that highway and go as fast as you can while trying to catch the meaning of all the information flashing past you as you speed to nowhere.

    For not only does censorship, propaganda, disinformation, mixed messages, and contradictions line the road you are traveling, but context-less information overload is so heavy that even if you were stopped in a traffic jam, there is too much information to comprehend.

    And if you think this Superhighway is a freeway, think again, for the cost is high. No one puts out their hand and asks you to pay up; but the more you travel down this road you'll notice you are missing a bit of flesh here and some blood there. And without a speed pass, you are considered road kill.

    To make matters much worse, they say we need 5G to go much faster.

    Paul Virilio, who has devoted himself to the study of speed (dromology), puts it this way in Open Sky:
    The speed of the new optoelectronic and electroacoustic milieu becomes the final void (the void of the quick), a vacuum that no longer depends on the interval between places or things and so on the world's very extension, but on the interface of an instantaneous transmission of remote appearances, on a geographic and geometric retention in which all volume, all relief vanishes.
    *

    And yet I don't have a simple answer to the internet dilemma. You are reading it on-line and I am posting it there. It is very convenient and quick.

    And yet...and yet...

    Can we just walk away from it? Maybe. Perhaps like those few who, in Ursula K. Le Guin's excruciating story, "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas," we may decide the price for our conveniences and so-called happiness is too high and that there are hidden victims that this techno-scientific "progress" creates beneath its veneer of efficiency.

    Others, us, our children, all children, who are reaching out not for speed and machines, but for the human touch that the on-line propagandists hope to destroy.

    In Le Guin's story, the price nearly all the citizens of Omelas are willing to pay for their happiness and comfort is the imprisonment of a single child. Perhaps we should consider what we are doing to all the world's children and their futures.

    My friend Gary recently sent me this letter. I believe it sums up what many people feel. There is a vast hunger for reality and truth. The analog life. How to live it - the question hangs in the air as the artificial intelligence/digital controllers try to reduce us to machines.
    Although apparently it isn't clear if Twain ever said this, it's still a great quote: "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do, you're misinformed." To which "amen" is the only appropriate response.

    I continue to daily stay abreast of events through the web, and these days much of what passed for "progressive media" simply regurgitates the covid madness as if it had been delivered on stone tablets - rather than by the same MSM that lie to us daily about literally ANYTHING of any importance.

    There are days I wonder "why" I continue to bother to follow the unfolding madness as if it made some "difference." I could certainly play guitar more, and I might even get it together to write a few pieces on the nature of our collective madness, for which I have studiously assembled copious notes.

    I really don't need any more information or examples - I think I have things covered on that front.

    Instead I find myself daily doing the little dance we're all familiar with - uncomfortable with being "uninformed" - yet at almost every turn finding myself being routinely - "misinformed" - and so having to sift through the endless debris to have any chance at developing any coherent understanding of the world.

    So yes, I totally get the draw of just saying to hell with the internet.

    After years of shifting through the endless propaganda operations our generation has been subject too, I have no doubt you and I see through most the nonsense for what it is before we even have the proof in hand.

    Once the rose-colored glasses of 'American exceptionalism' are off, one can almost sense and see through the lies in real-time even as they are being uttered.
    Reading Gary's words reminded me of those of the Trappist monk Thomas Merton's definition of the Unspeakable:
    It is the void that contradicts everything that is spoken even before the words are said, the void that gets into the language of public and official declarations at the very moment when they are pronounced, and makes them ring dead with the hollowness of the abyss. It is the void out of which Eichmann drew the punctilious exactitude of his obedience...
    Yes, real time, real life - as we do our little dances.

    Can we do our little dances and preserve reality? I'm not sure.
    About the author

    Edward Curtin is a writer whose work has appeared widely. He teaches sociology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His website is edwardcurtin.com. He is the author of the new book Seeking Truth in A Country of Lies

  2. The Following 19 Users Say Thank You to kfm27917 For This Post:

    Agape (30th September 2020), Alecs (29th September 2020), Anka (29th September 2020), Bill Ryan (29th September 2020), cascadian (29th September 2020), Deborah (ahamkara) (30th September 2020), Denise/Dizi (29th September 2020), EFO (30th September 2020), Elainie (29th September 2020), Harmony (30th September 2020), Ioneo (29th September 2020), Islander12 (29th September 2020), Jill (30th September 2020), Kryztian (30th September 2020), Rawhide68 (30th September 2020), Satori (29th September 2020), Sue (Ayt) (29th September 2020), toppy (30th September 2020), yelik (1st October 2020)

  3. Link to Post #2
    United States Avalon Member Denise/Dizi's Avatar
    Join Date
    2nd July 2017
    Age
    51
    Posts
    1,005
    Thanks
    12,904
    Thanked 6,687 times in 983 posts

    Default Re: The end of reality

    WOW...

    Yet here I am reading it, while on the internet rather than engaging the outside life that surrounds me... I don't think I could go a day without some music, or "Noise" in my life, unless I went on some vacation to strictly enjoy nature... Even that is being restricted to more stringent degrees daily.. Especially amid the "Covid 19" situation..

    We sure are in quite a quandary... We have tech we have "grown" to carry around with us, and are now merging that tech with our bodies.. We gave up much, to have more of nothing... We are in many ways nothing more than biological computers really... Code, genetics, all programmed to do something for our bodies, and the way we interact within our own given realities... realities that are in constant flux as we engage others and temporarily enter their bubble of existence. What an experiment life is right?

    There is so much here to ponder, now I know why Elon is not allowed to talk about simulations in the hottub!....

    It certainly seems as if we have been warned over and over about just this, as time passed in this world.. Pretty soon we will be creating our own realities to download into, and the shows appearing on the more popular media devices are giving us an example of just that... And they have been merging tech with brain matter and neurology for years now, under the medical guise of prosthetics...

    I don't think I can add to this thread, aside from to say this is a great thing to ponder.. And we better get it right, and fast, or life as we know it will be altered in ways we perhaps won't care so much for... As it is already beginning to happen....

  4. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to Denise/Dizi For This Post:

    Anka (29th September 2020), Bill Ryan (29th September 2020), cascadian (29th September 2020), Deborah (ahamkara) (30th September 2020), EFO (30th September 2020), Elainie (29th September 2020), Ernie Nemeth (29th September 2020), Harmony (30th September 2020), Islander12 (29th September 2020), Jill (30th September 2020), Kryztian (30th September 2020), Mare (30th September 2020), Sue (Ayt) (29th September 2020), toppy (30th September 2020), Watching from Cyprus (30th September 2020), Yoda (30th October 2020)

  5. Link to Post #3
    Canada Avalon Member kfm27917's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th June 2019
    Location
    Garymede
    Language
    German
    Posts
    194
    Thanks
    3,136
    Thanked 1,056 times in 177 posts

    Default Re: The end of reality

    some people !!!! are certainly not much more than carriers for electronic devices.

  6. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to kfm27917 For This Post:

    Anka (29th September 2020), Bill Ryan (29th September 2020), Deborah (ahamkara) (30th September 2020), Denise/Dizi (29th September 2020), EFO (30th September 2020), Harmony (30th September 2020), Islander12 (29th September 2020), Sue (Ayt) (29th September 2020), toppy (30th September 2020), Watching from Cyprus (30th September 2020), yelik (1st October 2020)

  7. Link to Post #4
    United States Moderator Sue (Ayt)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd December 2016
    Language
    English
    Posts
    641
    Thanks
    5,928
    Thanked 4,844 times in 634 posts

    Default Re: The end of reality

    Here is the link for this, kfm27917. I found it, because I intend to send this to my son.
    The End of Reality

    What a read! Thank you so much for posting this.
    I strongly suggest that all should read and fully digest this, if they have the time.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

  8. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Sue (Ayt) For This Post:

    Anka (29th September 2020), Bill Ryan (29th September 2020), Deborah (ahamkara) (30th September 2020), Denise/Dizi (29th September 2020), EFO (30th September 2020), Harmony (30th September 2020), Johan (Keyholder) (30th September 2020), kfm27917 (8th October 2020), toppy (30th September 2020), yelik (1st October 2020)

  9. Link to Post #5
    United States Avalon Member thepainterdoug's Avatar
    Join Date
    27th November 2013
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,216
    Thanks
    3,294
    Thanked 10,425 times in 1,163 posts

    Default Re: The end of reality

    we are here to experience. this is our time . all is as it should be

  10. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to thepainterdoug For This Post:

    cascadian (29th September 2020), Deborah (ahamkara) (30th September 2020), Denise/Dizi (29th September 2020), EFO (30th September 2020), Harmony (30th September 2020), Johan (Keyholder) (30th September 2020), leavesoftrees (30th September 2020), toppy (30th September 2020)

  11. Link to Post #6
    Aaland Avalon Member Agape's Avatar
    Join Date
    26th March 2010
    Posts
    4,943
    Thanks
    12,106
    Thanked 21,021 times in 3,981 posts

    Default Re: The end of reality

    Free thought here ...🌟

    I’ve just read you and Angels1981 almost simultaneously and realize how much unhappiness occurs, deep within that can kill people even while it occurs for a brief
    moment of time.

    Don’t forget about “front loading”.

    Frontal cortex of the brain keeps evolving and firing “ahead” in healthy individuals anytime from 2 years on.
    Yes it starts slowing its activity with age and replaces it with analytical thinking.

    While conflict - the paradox- the duality - the devil- is pathetically beautiful and attractive with its nuances , in its model of perfectionism of human race ,
    the ultimate deception of finding a “perfect solution” or a hypothesis,
    and while remodelling the paradox in our brains
    ultimately leads to brain-lock

    and mental stagnation

    don’t forget about the virtues of front loading.


    Think positively about engaging with others out and away from the boxes of the conflict paradox.

    Knowing we all are inevitable part of it the powers of the conflict- paradox increase,
    and we near the state of post-lock stagnation.

    Perhaps the state of today’s coronavirus lockdown represent the threshold we have practically reached for a small moment of global depression,
    state that turns us away from being “positively engaged”.

    Remember that even the most extreme dissonant moments of conflict, paradigm and depression are ultimately illusory reflections of deeply subjective mind and since they do not offer way out other than “self destruction” it’s upon us to recognise them as transitory and wait for them to disappear.


    We are not to forget we are Life, a part of Life, not an abstract caricature in Empty Space that’s how we are also “part of this reality”.

    🥏
    Last edited by Agape; 30th September 2020 at 05:40. Reason: Eyes, name edit Angels1981

  12. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Agape For This Post:

    Deborah (ahamkara) (30th September 2020), EFO (30th September 2020), Harmony (30th September 2020), Johan (Keyholder) (30th September 2020), kfm27917 (30th September 2020), thepainterdoug (30th September 2020), toppy (30th September 2020), yelik (1st October 2020)

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts