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Thread: The Invasion of America

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    Aaland Avalon Member Agape's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by Orph (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

    What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........
    Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

    As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

    Shucks, ........ Orph says:

    "Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

    Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread.
    There is a reasoning behind those things, but i think we are going way off topic now

    But let's look, for example, into my own life experience

    I was born in Russia, from a Russian mother (from cossack origins) and a Japanese father

    Am i "Russian-Japanese" or "Japanese-Russian". I have never been called any of those, ever, i'm just Russian, because i was born on Russia

    Also there entire Asian continent is comprised of around 48 countries, but you never hear terms like "chinese-asian", "russian-asian", "japanese-aian", "Vietnamese-asian", you are from your country, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and you are also "Asian" as in a global thing because you were born in that country, which happens to exist on the Asian continent

    On the case of America, the entire continent was named like that from way before the US existed, but suddenly only US citizens are "Americans", unlike Europeans or Asians

    Why? Nobody asked the other countries about it, nobody cared if they were going to be upset. And i said before, the Monroe doctrine teaches that the entire continent belongs to the US in some ways, and people are aware of this

    Just "let it go" and "it is what it is" is not enough to fix this, because it's the same as saying "i don't care if you are hurt or feel cheated out", and that's why resentment grew over the years and people are not happy with that

    If you look at the continent maps from other countries, there's always the name "American continent" and then one of the countries on that map is the US, there is never mention of "The Americas"

    Asia is very big, there's south, east, west, north Asia, yet i bet you have never heard or read the term "The Asias"

    There are no Chinese-asians, or similar labels for any other country on the Asian continent, there are Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean people and so on, who also happen to be Asian

    All of them are Asian, just as every single person in The American continent is American, and not just the US citizens

    But i know this will never be fixed or accepted, there will always be a way to work around it. But only for the purpose of keeping things the way they are, and that's why a lot of people in the other countries in America are not happy and even on the US country land, they feel "lesser" and rejected. There is no way to move forward if the core of the culture has it on it, that there are two kinds of Americans

    How can you unify and "do our best to get by in this very imperfect world" when at the very core of your normal daily life, the concept of "we" and "them" is affirmed in an immutable way?

    I love my "African-American" friends, and if something happens to one of them, the police report and hospital cards must likely will show this label on there



    Mashika: from my perspective this discussion is juvenile. You don’t have to believe everything that people tell you. It’s really upon you what you believe in 🌸

    Suppose you had a brother who would be more like your father and he would feel he’s Japanese and went to live to Japan,
    he still could face some kind of social confrontation with the fact that his mother was not fully “Japanese”.
    Most likely not so these days but in every country so far and through the past centuries would they discriminate against foreign elements.

    I’d say be happy you’re young and don’t understand “all the rest” about what are those people up to and breeding their “pure lineages” when the time comes and else

    but on the other hand, you may later find out that there are many options for you to identify with, not just one.


    Personally, I never felt the need to define myself by my nationality or ethnicity even because I feel universally the same wherever I’m and if people prove too strenuous about their self-definitions it’s probably not the right place for me to be altogether.

    I think we have every piece of humanity in us possibly. I lived in India as Indian and in Tibetan monastery as Tibetan and in Europe as Europeans do. I could easily define myself as American by my way of thinking and most of my American friends don’t see any odds in it because when we think alike we share the same identity.
    But I can define myself as my own native ancestor too and tell everyone what I think about their “gas”.

    I have my Japanese part too and my very pale mum would never agree with me on stuff spiritually because she loved African music and felt like she would find her “tribe” there


    And I know people who lived actively in about 10 countries and have 4 different passports.


    So at the beginning and the end, the “zone” where our self definitions make us rise beyond the differences , the zone of uncertainty turns to a higher passage. Where am I from ? Where are we from ? What’s the message ?


    There is no country or system that will give you answers to those questions but some will try, may be all will try their best to define you.



    Study the systems Think beyond and be free



    🙏
    Last edited by Agape; 18th October 2020 at 02:13.

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  3. Link to Post #22
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by Orph (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

    What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........
    Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

    As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

    Shucks, ........ Orph says:

    "Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

    Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread.
    There is a reasoning behind those things, but i think we are going way off topic now

    But let's look, for example, into my own life experience

    I was born in Russia, from a Russian mother (from cossack origins) and a Japanese father

    Am i "Russian-Japanese" or "Japanese-Russian". I have never been called any of those, ever, i'm just Russian, because i was born on Russia

    Also there entire Asian continent is comprised of around 48 countries, but you never hear terms like "chinese-asian", "russian-asian", "japanese-aian", "Vietnamese-asian", you are from your country, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and you are also "Asian" as in a global thing because you were born in that country, which happens to exist on the Asian continent

    On the case of America, the entire continent was named like that from way before the US existed, but suddenly only US citizens are "Americans", unlike Europeans or Asians

    Why? Nobody asked the other countries about it, nobody cared if they were going to be upset. And i said before, the Monroe doctrine teaches that the entire continent belongs to the US in some ways, and people are aware of this

    Just "let it go" and "it is what it is" is not enough to fix this, because it's the same as saying "i don't care if you are hurt or feel cheated out", and that's why resentment grew over the years and people are not happy with that

    If you look at the continent maps from other countries, there's always the name "American continent" and then one of the countries on that map is the US, there is never mention of "The Americas"

    Asia is very big, there's south, east, west, north Asia, yet i bet you have never heard or read the term "The Asias"

    There are no Chinese-asians, or similar labels for any other country on the Asian continent, there are Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean people and so on, who also happen to be Asian

    All of them are Asian, just as every single person in The American continent is American, and not just the US citizens

    But i know this will never be fixed or accepted, there will always be a way to work around it. But only for the purpose of keeping things the way they are, and that's why a lot of people in the other countries in America are not happy and even on the US country land, they feel "lesser" and rejected. There is no way to move forward if the core of the culture has it on it, that there are two kinds of Americans

    How can you unify and "do our best to get by in this very imperfect world" when at the very core of your normal daily life, the concept of "we" and "them" is affirmed in an immutable way?

    I love my "African-American" friends, and if something happens to one of them, the police report and hospital cards must likely will show this label on there



    Mashika: from my perspective this discussion is juvenile. You don’t have to believe everything that people tell you. It’s really upon you what you believe in 🌸

    Suppose you had a brother who would be more like your father and he would feel he’s Japanese and went to live to Japan,
    he still could face some kind of social confrontation with the fact that his mother was not fully “Japanese”.
    Most likely not so these days but in every country so far and through the past centuries would they discriminate against foreign elements.

    I’d say be happy you’re young and don’t understand “all the rest” about what are those people up to and breeding their “pure lineages” when the time comes and else

    but on the other hand, you may later find out that there are many options for you to identify with, not just one.


    Personally, I never felt the need to define myself by my nationality or ethnicity even because I feel universally the same wherever I’m and if people prove too strenuous about their self-definitions it’s probably not the right place for me to be altogether.

    I think we have every piece of humanity in us possibly. I lived in India as Indian and in Tibetan monastery as Tibetan and in Europe as Europeans do. I could easily define myself as American by my way of thinking and most of my American friends don’t see any odds in it because when we think alike we share the same identity.
    But I can define myself as my own native ancestor too and tell everyone what I think about their “gas”.

    I have my Japanese part too and my very pale mum would never agree with me on stuff spiritually because she loved African music and felt like she would find her “tribe” there


    And I know people who lived actively in about 10 countries and have 4 different passports.


    So at the beginning and the end, the “zone” where our self definitions make us rise beyond the differences , the zone of uncertainty turns to a higher passage. Where am I from ? Where are we from ? What’s the message ?


    There is no country or system that will give you answers to those questions but some will try, may be all will try their best to define you.



    Study the systems Think beyond and be free



    🙏
    Thank you for your kind words, i do understand them

    Quote Mashika: from my perspective this discussion is juvenile. You don’t have to believe everything that people tell you.
    I'm mostly talking from my own experience, as well as my sister's as i've seen them back then

    What i feel i did not explain correctly is this, there's a difference between you accepting and living your ethnicity, and other people constantly remind you of it, even of official government papers while claiming you are "equal"

    I have been in Mexico for lots of years, and Chile, Argentina, Spain, a small run at Iraq and Afghanistan, Japan and even Brazil, nowhere on those countrys, people cared about where i was born, they just talked to me as the person in front of them, but the experience on the US was very different, as soon as we spoke, people would ask about our accent, and "are you really from Russia? You don't look Russian?" and such stuff, well i'm mixed race so i'm not quite the same as a "native-Russian" i would say, and then they would ask me to prove it somehow.

    I did and still experience a bit of that in Mexico, but in a lesser, more curious way than the enforcing ways as in the US, here people ask "Eres de Russia?" and when i say yes, sometimes they say "You look more like from Japan hehe, can you say something in japanese and then they laugh and let it go" but in the US i felt like rejection, like "Let's hear you talk in your own language, are you any good at it?", very confrontational, with no reason at all

    Why does that even matter? I got angry once and ask them to speak Navajo or whatever language the region their were in was spoken before Columbus came, and they got very angry and told me all sort of bad stuff. Why this anger shows up when someone questions that, but they feel entitled to do the same to people from other countries?

    As i said before, i don't hate or dislike US people, but i do wonder why this happens like that, why so much defensive stuff going, and why they don't like that people from other countries in the same "American Continent" could also be called Americans

    I have a half-brother in Japan, my father is older than my mom and he had a family before us, he likes me a lot, he sends me presents and it's an incredible guy, he has never, in his entire life, treated me other than just "me", no labels at all, neither my father even though we are distant. My dad has tons of respect for my roots and my grand father, who he met and was good friends with, and my grand father always had good things to say about my dad, they respected and liked each other very much

    I never knew about any kind of labels until i went to the US as a teenager, full of ideals and exited to be there and looking up to experience the real thing, and i was not disappointed, the US is an incredible beautiful country, summer time and all that is the real thing, Tennessee is like traveling in time!

    And i was plenty happy, except for that single aspect of life that most people ignore but continues over and over, and continually grew as we started resisting the labeling and how it modified the way people acted around us
    Last edited by Mashika; 18th October 2020 at 03:12.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Dear Mashika, I understand your disenchantment with all those ignorant people.

    Yes I found the Spanish speaking parts of the world are more tolerant and warm hearted and I’ve never felt under any social pressure in South America for being “from somewhere else”.

    My passport nationality is not much better than yours for that purpose. 20 years ago most people who did not study geography could hardly tell Czech Republic from Chechnya or former Yugoslavia, just by the sound of it and more frequently they asked if we are still “part of Russia” 😅

    In those days people in India mostly knew just about 4 foreign countries ( some even 10), the richest countries who make the best movies of course( now I’m exaggerating a bit but generally).

    Many American travelers I met over the years surprisingly had about the same geographical knowledge as their Indian cousins


    On my visit to San Jose in California I passed perfectly for any other Lucy. I enjoyed the atmosphere very much actually if not for the great human diversity.
    I’m pretty sure that more than 75% of the population are first and second generation immigrants already.

    That’s when the conservative wing started to pull the ropes trying to close the door because they can foresee bigger problems and collisions coming.
    Brexit has been inspired by the same people

    and this shall make you giggle

    but their true inspiration for stable state and ultra orthodox nationalism is none else than ...Russia.

    They’re looking admirably at the Putin power allowing him to rule over 20 years now and going.

    The world politics is a grotesque pantomime of those people.

    God Save the Queen


    🦢

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    MASHIKA/
    Have you ever heard the term "russian-asian" or "japanese-asian", i don't think so, but you do hear the one "japanese-American"


    My take on that is because, America was the melting pot of all people.So people get or got that extra tag.
    Sort of like the all star game In Hockey, forgive my trite analogy. That game is made up from players from every team.

    Personally i really dont care. It doesnt affect me if Im described as American, italian American, Scottish American etc. Im a person.

    And yes a male version of a person. lol

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    It's not as complicated as all that. People from the United States of AMERICA are Americans, like people from Canada are Canadians, and people from Mexico, Mexicans. The name of the continent is also in the name of country. People can and do add more titles or labels to create more identity, like Georgian or Floridian, southern or midwestern.

    I don't know what else you would call people from the United States of America. USians? USAians? That just sounds weird (IMO!) and does not easily roll off the tongue...perhaps one reason why it was never adopted.
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    It's not as complicated as all that. People from the United States of AMERICA are Americans, like people from Canada are Canadians, and people from Mexico, Mexicans. The name of the continent is also in the name of country. People can and do add more titles or labels to create more identity, like Georgian or Floridian, southern or midwestern.

    I don't know what else you would call people from the United States of America. USians? USAians? That just sounds weird (IMO!) and does not easily roll off the tongue...perhaps one reason why it was never adopted.

    Unfortunately there is way too much more than that going on, i did not expect that all my other posts would be disregarded so easy

    Imagine i could say "you own this beautiful house and your name is "Rainsong", i like it and from now on i'm "Raisong" and you are not, you shall be called "british-Raisong" because i'm the real Raisong and no one else can be called that, because i say so, and since the title of your house says it belongs to Raisong now it belongs to me. Do as you wish, i own it now and i will destroy you if you come here asking for it back

    Is that fair? Would it cause you some kind of resentment against me?

    But "it happened a lot of time ago" and "It is what it is'
    Last edited by Mashika; 20th October 2020 at 05:16.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    MASHIKA/
    Have you ever heard the term "russian-asian" or "japanese-asian", i don't think so, but you do hear the one "japanese-American"


    My take on that is because, America was the melting pot of all people.So people get or got that extra tag.
    Sort of like the all star game In Hockey, forgive my trite analogy. That game is made up from players from every team.

    Personally i really dont care. It doesnt affect me if Im described as American, italian American, Scottish American etc. Im a person.

    And yes a male version of a person. lol
    Problem is, do the other people who get called partial-American feel the same way? Were they asked at all? IF not, then "That game is made up from players from every team." doesn't really turn true, because there are two levels and on the top one, the other players are not given the same chances at all so the game is made up of "we" and "them" as i had pointed out before

    I just don't think this is clear for most people, and i keep repeating myself i know, apologizes for that
    Last edited by Mashika; 20th October 2020 at 05:54.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Adding additional labels or prefixes doesn't change the fact that Americans are called Americans because it's in our name. It's still the United States of America.

    That is mainly what I was addressing. The prefixes are a separate thing.

    However, your analogy to my name doesn't work. It's not about a single name. No one goes around calling or being called Chinese-Sarah or anything like that. Not even with family names. It's not Chinese-Rainsong.

    It's about ancestral heritage. Most people do choose to use these labels as a way to identify with their heritage and their family's culture. It is not a slur. It is not less-than. And in my IRL experience, people will quickly correct you and get angry when you try to tell them otherwise.

    Trying to tell someone that their choice of cultural and family identity makes them "less than" does not go over well.

    I will stick with what the people I know IRL prefer and yes, choose: Asian-American, Chinese-American, Korean-American, Filipino-American, African-American, and Hispanic-American.
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    Adding additional labels or prefixes doesn't change the fact that Americans are called Americans because it's in our name. It's still the United States of America.

    That is mainly what I was addressing. The prefixes are a separate thing.

    However, your analogy to my name doesn't work. It's not about a single name. No one goes around calling or being called Chinese-Sarah or anything like that. Not even with family names. It's not Chinese-Rainsong.

    It's about ancestral heritage. Most people do choose to use these labels as a way to identify with their heritage and their family's culture. It is not a slur. It is not less-than. And in my IRL experience, people will quickly correct you and get angry when you try to tell them otherwise.

    Trying to tell someone that their choice of cultural and family identity makes them "less than" does not go over well.

    I will stick with what the people I know IRL prefer and yes, choose: Asian-American, Chinese-American, Korean-American, Filipino-American, African-American, and Hispanic-American.
    No you don't understand, it is placed on them, they don't chose it

    The American continent existed way before the US country, that's why i said "i like your name so i will take it, do as you wish".

    You are not seeing this the right way, chicken and egg

    I don't think we are going to be able to figure this out, and you be able to understand why other people feel cheated, affected and angry about it

    You said

    Quote And in my IRL experience, people will quickly correct you and get angry when you try to tell them otherwise.
    "American people?" And yet if you had read my previous posts entirely you would have seen i had already addressed that, and the way you said "Chinese-Rainsong", because it would be all wrong, and if you were called that, you would not like it at all, because no matter what you said, people would tell you to not call yourself "Rainsong", because you are not, you are "Chinese-Rainsong" and nothing more

    I don't think we are connecting very well here, i posted a lot of what i have seen through the world, as examples of why this is all wrong, but you are not going to approach it in the same way, or even care. I also said why and how it happened, and i can see it happening again right here, right now. So there is no point, this is just one other instance of what i was talking about before

    Better to let it go, as i said, i don't think it can be fixed, but that's one (if not) of the main reasons the US is completely broken

    Every single person born in this continent, wether be Mexican, Chilean, Guatemalan, Brasilian or Canadian, etc, is American

    I understand you don't see it in the same way, but as i explained in detail in my previous posts, it's on your end, because the US as a country, started way after America existed, so claiming a name that belong to everyone in the continent, is not correct, and look into the Monroe doctrine so you understand better the situation

    If not, well it's your lose, wish you the best. I'm out of here now
    Last edited by Mashika; 20th October 2020 at 12:29.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I think it’s the only country where you can argue about it openly , freedom of speech granted.
    In most other countries there’s common social empathy towards “guests” but discrimination towards “strangers”. If you try to rise your voice as British, Finnish or Czech immigrant from anywhere else including the US,
    you will be treated with white gloves but on the hard core edge.

    And no matter what way will you come out with your “human rights and protest song” you will be on their file forever. More for digging to it.
    People will always love you for sharing the table but you can not think of winning the card game.

    In every society I believe, we are a kind of guest, even if we were born there. It’s easier to be a guest than a host because possession of certain obligations and titles (including that of being “only American”) binds people to system we can never understand or appreciate fully.

    Old saying goes as “no one is prophet in their own land” which reads both ways around. And if you were not born it the US you don’t qualify as presidential candidate, don’t forget about that 😅

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I have to say, I think this is quite an interesting discussion — rightly in the History section, as all this was set in stone quite some while back. And some of the points Mashika raised I'd never thought about before.

    It's really a kind of historical semantic accident, now absorbed into everyday language. But as with many things, the names of countries (and their citizens!) can create a lot of confusion and clumsiness.

    For instance, I always roll my eyes whenever I hear Alex Jones talking about "the English leaving the EU". (No, it's the British!!) And when I was a little kid, I remember asking my Dad what "USSR" stood for. He answered with paternal authority, "The United States of Soviet Russia."

    And I'm often assumed to be an Americano here in Ecuador — because that's what they themselves call expats from the US. I always laugh and explain: "ˇNo soy americano! ˇVengo de Escocia!" (I'm not American! I come from Scotland!)


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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    There will be no such thing as an American for many more hundred years. Right now all hail from somewhere else. When they forget they are from somewhere else they will begin to call themselves Americans without a hyphen.

    Same for all countries. If you go back far enough...Germany wasn't german, Hungarians weren't hungarian, Russia wasn't russian. They claimed hyphenated nationhood. And as they forgot their ancestral origins, they became new nationals.

    Nobody is American by heritage, yet - because their histories are too fresh.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I is an interesting discussion with numerous valid points, but what would anyone do about it? Hand it over to the UN requesting some sort of law? I wouldn't want to go there.
    The only place a perfect right angle ever CAN be, is the mind.

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    United States Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    I never heard about an expiring lease, but may have missed it. As far as i knew it was a final sale, not a lease to the US.
    Yes, it was a final sale, there was no lease.... misinfo is pretty much everywhere.

    As far as I know it was paid in full at the time of the purchase (which was not very much money at all...$7.2 million, or about two cents an acre which is about 126,622,702.70 in "today's money" still a steal of a deal!)

    we (US MIL) have far too many assets (including missile silos) there to ever move; it's an extremely strategic area. I worked for the military in that region for 13 years, that area just gets more funding and focus from what I saw (great for cold weather testing / training)


    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

    What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix it unless the root of this problem "we" and "them" is fixed

    But it's seems almost impossible to do
    What you are observing is advanced "divide and conquer" tactics (the over emphasis of certain groups (*minority groups generally*)) developed and extensively used by western culture, it helps to keep "us" separated in to various "them" groups so we waste time infighting instead of being critical of the real / obvious control structures.


    It is heavily tilted to a "victim mentality" which causes emotional responses when challenged; I do believe this tactic is no longer as effective as it used to be (because of the internet IMO) and people are more and more starting to see through these divisive concepts and labels.

    Quote Posted by gord (here)
    I is an interesting discussion with numerous valid points, but what would anyone do about it? Hand it over to the UN requesting some sort of law? I wouldn't want to go there.
    Somethings can only be undone by the same manor they were originally done.

    This is a cultural issue, a subtle victimhood mixed with divisiveness that has been allowed to continue through a lack of cultural over sight and leadership (something basically non-existent in organic form in all of western culture).

    a law would only exacerbate the situation (see "hate speech" or NAACP quotas etc..).
    Last edited by TargeT; 20th October 2020 at 16:59.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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