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Thread: The Invasion of America

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    UK Avalon Member Le Chat's Avatar
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    Default The Invasion of America

    A time lapse view from 1776 to the present day of how the US government systematically took land from Native Americans through treaties and executive orders that were rarely honored for long.


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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Le Chat (here)
    A time lapse view from 1776 to the present day of how the US government systematically took land from Native Americans through treaties and executive orders that were rarely honored for long.

    The British Empire and the Vatican as well as Spain and France, that is, the then (and now) established world powers prior to 1776 and thereafter, had a great deal to do with this atrocity too. I do not believe it’s is proper to visit the sins of the fathers, grand fathers, great, great.... grandfathers....... upon the sons and daughters of today.

    I’m to be counted among those of all races and religions etc... willing to work together today for a better tomorrow for all. The white privileged-American, or white whatever, guilt trip does not work on me. To the contrary.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    Quote Posted by Le Chat (here)
    A time lapse view from 1776 to the present day of how the US government systematically took land from Native Americans through treaties and executive orders that were rarely honored for long.

    The British Empire and the Vatican as well as Spain and France, that is, the then (and now) established world powers prior to 1776 and thereafter, had a great deal to do with this atrocity too. I do not believe it’s is proper to visit the sins of the fathers, grand fathers, great, great.... grandfathers....... upon the sons and daughters of today.

    I’m to be counted among those of all races and religions etc... willing to work together today for a better tomorrow for all. The white privileged-American, or white whatever, guilt trip does not work on me. To the contrary.
    I have always had a big issue with "America" as a name, simply because of this



    Sure we can say that it's been called like that for so long that it could not be changed by now, but this goes into the same mindset of the Monroe doctrine

    I believe there's a lot of misconception about this from people in the US, they are not even aware of the problem from what i've seen. Please don't misunderstand me, i'm not attacking US people, i'm just bringing this up as a way to note why the root of the problem goes beyond just religions/races

    I'm going to post something my sister asked on her first year of middle school, when we moved to California some time ago, she got in trouble and was bullied to no end because of it

    Code:
    You see how there's North America, Central and South America?
    
    So let's say you are in Brazil, and you move up north and keep going, then you are in Central America, 
    
    Then you keep going forward and you reach Mexico, then you are in North America.
     Then you keep going and finally reach... America?
    The main problem with all these things is, that that name was not anyone's to own, but it does seem that a lot of people get very angry when it is mentioned that the entire continent was "America" and not "The Americas", because it doesn't make any sense, if we are in "The Americas" then it means every single person born on this place, regardless of country, is "American", but they're not? Only people in the US are "Americans"

    This has caused resentment in ways i don't think most people in the US are aware of

    So to start fixing things, it would first be needed to stop thinking the entire continent is property of the US, as the Monroe doctrine teaches and as it is followed by the US government up to these days

    That includes the natives specifically, since they are voice less, considered "poor" and uneducated and by most standards "lesser beings"

    In the US, people are considered by their race still, Native-American, African-American, Mexican-American, Russian-American and so on

    But, who are the British-American? That's not usual term you hear, those are just "Americans"

    People native to Argentina are called "Latinos'? or "Argentinian-American", see? That's the problem right there (There is no/very little difference between Mexicans and Argentinians, or Chileans or whatever, except for the native people who have more 'pure blood'), no matter what, these people will get labeled by whatever country their ancestors were born, Italian-American and so on, once you put a label on a person, things have gone bad. And is not just race, but to make them "different" from the "real" Americans, because to me, if you were born in this continent, regardless of parents or family, you are "American", and nothing else, but that's not the current reality at all

    To fix things up, it would have to start from right there, but i don't think that's possible anymore
    Last edited by Mashika; 15th October 2020 at 03:51.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I seem to remember a tv interview with Russia's Putin. (A BBC journalist i think it was asked why Russia had such an aggressive foreign policy) Putin replied that if one asked oneself how many countries the USA had military bases in that were not on its borders and compared that to Russia - perhaps the reporter's perception and opinion might change.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I wish to correct a politically motivated statement which is not only incorrect, it is an attempt to STEAL ALASKA FROM THE RIGHTFUL HEIRS OF CZAR NICHOLAS II WHO ARE ALIVE IN THE USA TODAY. The LEASE ON ALASKA EXPIRED IN THE MID-SIXTIES. RUSSIA IS NOT THE OWNER EITHER. IT BELONGED TO CZAR ALEXANDER III, AFTER WHOSE DEATH IT DEVOLVED TO HIS SON AND HEIR AND HIS HEIRS.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by amor (here)
    I wish to correct a politically motivated statement which is not only incorrect, it is an attempt to STEAL ALASKA FROM THE RIGHTFUL HEIRS OF CZAR NICHOLAS II WHO ARE ALIVE IN THE USA TODAY. The LEASE ON ALASKA EXPIRED IN THE MID-SIXTIES. RUSSIA IS NOT THE OWNER EITHER. IT BELONGED TO CZAR ALEXANDER III, AFTER WHOSE DEATH IT DEVOLVED TO HIS SON AND HEIR AND HIS HEIRS.
    The Bolsheviks were not kind to anyone but to their own, and even then, not all the time, so all rightfulness would have been stripped anyway after the revolution

    But the Alaska deal happened before, it was sold to the US in 1867 by Alexander II, before Nicholas II was around. I never heard about an expiring lease, but may have missed it. As far as i knew it was a final sale, not a lease to the US.

    However i did read some time ago that the debt was never fully paid by the US, and so they don't really own the land, but i'm not sure if that's really true or is the Bolsheviks (the soviets) again trying to regain power, as they always do in all possible ways

    In any case, it would most likely be impossible to reclaim the land at this point, because "it is what it is and too much time has gone by"

    Anyway, never trust a Bolshevik, they are family and friends until one day they wake up and decide you have been too friendly lately and therefore you must be up to something, next day they show up in numbers to decide your faith for your imaginary treason
    Last edited by Mashika; 16th October 2020 at 05:45.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    this is called progress sorry to say. Native Americans also killed and took land from other Native American tribes. Annd then europeans did the same .
    similar to slavery, african tribes conquered other african tribes and then sold them as slaves. its all pretty sad and Im embarrassed about it as a HUMAN BEING

    its easy to beat up on americans , I get it. But nature plays this out everyday in the wilds.
    What makes us so evolved from killer bees?

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    this is called progress sorry to say. Native Americans also killed and took land from other Native American tribes. Annd then europeans did the same .
    similar to slavery, african tribes conquered other african tribes and then sold them as slaves. its all pretty sad and Im embarrassed about it as a HUMAN BEING

    its easy to beat up on americans , I get it. But nature plays this out everyday in the wilds.
    What makes us so evolved from killer bees?
    Is not the act itself, but what follows

    At this point in time, every one is (or at least should be aware) of what happened, but they look into it and say "whatever", and continue to do the same while claiming to be "more advanced"

    On Spain, Mexico, Brazil, Chile and Guatemala, plus other countries, there are no labels such as "xxx-American" or whatever continent or country they came from

    I like my friends for who they are, why there's a need to label them? Mexican-Americans are just "Americans", labeling them just makes them be "different" and possibly "lesser" than a true full "American", its like the "great value" version

    And that's pure hipocrisy
    Last edited by Mashika; 17th October 2020 at 01:33.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    but where i disagree is the term" different". why is different ,lessor or greater. is a white, blue or red ball less a ball than another ball?

    classical music is different than soul or rap. i like differences. differences are somehow being made to be wrong. i think they are simply reality and what makes life interesting.

    its the value judgement people make thats incorrect. and when it comes to people, yes i get it. but to pretend not to see differences is just kicking the can down the road to a bigger problem. denial of truth .

    my rule? I love everyone until they give me a reason not to.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    but where i disagree is the term" different". why is different ,lessor or greater. is a white, blue or red ball less a ball than another ball?

    classical music is different than soul or rap. i like differences. differences are somehow being made to be wrong. i think they are simply reality and what makes life interesting.

    its the value judgement people make thats incorrect. and when it comes to people, yes i get it. but to pretend not to see differences is just kicking the can down the road to a bigger problem. denial of truth .

    my rule? I love everyone until they give me a reason not to.
    The comparison to balls is odd

    I could say, that for me, you are not American at all, you are from some european country, probably british, so you are British-American

    People in the US don't even know how to pronounce the natives names correctly, like California, Nevada, New Mexico and so on

    So, should i consider them "less educated" because of it? I mean what's the deal with "New" Mexico" and then have the wrong pronunciation for "Mexico".

    Did you read about the lady/guy who got their driving license revoked because the person at the gov office saw "New Mexico" on her id and asked to show some kind of id that proved she was an US citizen? And only ID she had was the exact same ID where the gov personal read the word "Mexico", then she was rejected for her driving license? What do you think of that?

    Imagine why this is happening, what kind of education leads to this, at all?

    Yes you are a different better person, i can attest to that, you have been kind and nice to me, and i love that, but not everyone is like you. What i'm saying is that if you look deep into the roots of the culture, there's this "I'm American and you are a lesser-American" thing going on, so how can things be solved when the rest of the world is aware of this particular issue, but most "Americans" arent?

    Being born on the same state/country/continent makes you all the same, regardless of where your parents were born at

    Otherwise you are not American, you are British-American and that's final, just like every other person who was born on the US but from parents/roots from another country is labeled

    Being called "British-American" and not just "American", Is that something you would be willing to accept? Most people would not
    Last edited by Mashika; 17th October 2020 at 06:11.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I just want to clarify that i'm not trying to insult or otherwise say i hate US people, because i don't at all, ever

    My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

    What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix it unless the root of this problem "we" and "them" is fixed

    But it's seems almost impossible to do

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Mashika, I think I understand what you are expressing . And I take no offense to anything you are saying. Im just a person. A person on planet earth doing my best to navigate and mitigate all presented me. But I guess someone could say Im lucky to even be able to have that position in life to say that. I cannot fix the world, only myself and Im not so sure fixing is necessary.

    Is it possible that " fixing "is not necessary?
    The amusement park has many rides, many attractions. We choose to get on the rides, eat the cotton candy, go to the fun house or the house of horrors or just sit and watch others do it.
    if the amusement park was made more fair, more even, less diverse with less differences, more safety's, check points and more risk averse, would it be an amusement park at all? Thats the thing Im seeing now and it's spreading everywhere.

    The point is to experience it in all its diversity. And it's what we make of it that matters.

    Seneca said to study Nature. Nothing in human terms is fair in Nature. Size , strength, poisons, stealth, camouflage , cunning and so on. Diversity everywhere.
    hope I'm not going off the rails.

    my best to you Mashika

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    United States Avalon Member Strat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Being born on the same state/country/continent makes you all the same, regardless of where your parents were born at

    Otherwise you are not American, you are British-American and that's final, just like every other person who was born on the US but from parents/roots from another country is labeled

    Being called "British-American" and not just "American", Is that something you would be willing to accept? Most people would not
    I can't disagree more. Either I am misreading you or you are nitpicking your information. I truly don't mean disrespect (I'm often lacking at choosing the right words) and I'll elaborate later. I'm on 2hrs of sleep because of my damn allergies acting up so I'll get back to you.

    Oh and I get what you're saying but nobody says British-American, they specify where they're from. So they'll say English, Welsh, etc. I've often heard many non-US folks say they think it's weird how we are so interested in taking DNA test and tracking our ancestry. It's just a cultural thing. Have you been to Miami? Or Little Italy? Or Chinatown? Has your sister gone to a black guy and said, "You're my people"? We are different and we take pride in this.

    And not directed toward you, or the OP, but the Bastard American/NA discussion is tiring. Everyone would do the same. Read the historical accounts of Spanish Missionaries or read how the French regarded the Natives in FL. It's not a US thing it is a human thing. Whoever has the biggest stick wins. It's how Egypt was united, the hieroglyphics is literally a guy with a stick bashing heads in. It's still happening to this day in the Amazon and the Congo and I'm sure elsewhere.

    EDIT: Mashika, I think we may be debating 2 different things, and if so, much of what I just said is off topic. Your discourse with Doug threw me off. But again, no sleep on my part can lead to silly mistakes (at least that's my excuse ).
    Last edited by Strat; 17th October 2020 at 16:11.
    That's life, and I can't deny it
    Many times I thought of cuttin' out but my heart won't buy it

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    I think there is only one crucial change to our human history we can make now and that’s when we stop being so hard,
    at each other and so called “others” no matter who they are.

    Not in my name : we still discriminate, segregate people, push them on boats, let the boats drown if we think they are not ours, we still send people to “camps”, millions living in refugee camps all over the globe, not ours (?),
    someone else’s people.

    So sad😢

    What does it help to argue about what Columbus did if we are still doing that, in almost every country under the headers of governmental policies.

    Most of today’s countries and territories were captured and acquired through some bloody war.

    Majority of human populace do not live on any sort of “ancestral land” at all. This current population has traversed the globe and sailed around number of times.
    Those dying aborigines can be the last biological descendants of advanced people of previous epoch who returned to the bushes.

    This place is a Planet and no God has ever marked borders between people or told them not to intermarry or travel.

    What people do to themselves in the name of their “me pride” is always ignorant.

    “We” have to understand now and stop pushing the “other people” so hard on who they are, white, black, native, local or non-local. “We” means the “People” as in “we are the people”, we are the children of the Universe.
    We were born free under the Stars and there is nothing we do not deserve that we truly need, and there’s lots of space out there, clean air and water the most.


    As long as people are stupid and unwilling to accept and embrace each other as friends,
    taking care only of “their family survival” ,
    the injury to your own will continue ..

    since you never know who was the man on the boat.


    We live in dangerous times and due to sheer numbers of people
    it could turn more dangerous yet.

    Proportionally to the amount of education and information globally missing I am not even too optimistic about it unless people can stop “shopping” and can start helping each other immediately instead.


    No doubts it’s also possible 🙏🌟🙏

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

    What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........
    Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

    As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

    Shucks, ........ Orph says:

    "Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

    Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread.
    I am enlightened, ............ Oh wait. That's just the police shining their spotlights on me.

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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Some good points brought up in this thread with interesting history graphics, thank you.

    ..................

    Difference is as a fly in the ointment, played ad infinitum.




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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Orph (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    My sister is "Russian-American", so i have been experiencing how this works directly for lots of years

    What i'm trying to explain is why this labeling is wrong and how this is the root cause of the problem, and why it is almost impossible to fix ...........
    Yes, labels, like fences, are always barriers. I don't consider myself to be "American". Nor do I consider myself as white, or straight, or any other label. I am simply "me". I don't label myself nor do I label others. Others may put a label on me, but that is their judgement of me. Oh well. I move on.

    As "thepainterdoug" mentioned, it really isn't about fixing anything. That idea is in itself a "label". It's a label that someone or something is "wrong" and must be fixed. The bottom line, (for me anyway), is that at the core of our being, we are LOVE. We do our best to get by in this very imperfect world. (<--- Another label/judgement).

    Shucks, ........ Orph says:

    "Seek the LOVE that is at your core and don't be too hard on yourself or others if life seems to fall short of that".

    Oooooooo. I like that. Maybe I should put that in the great quotes thread.
    There is a reasoning behind those things, but i think we are going way off topic now

    But let's look, for example, into my own life experience

    I was born in Russia, from a Russian mother (from cossack origins) and a Japanese father

    Am i "Russian-Japanese" or "Japanese-Russian". I have never been called any of those, ever, i'm just Russian, because i was born on Russia

    Also there entire Asian continent is comprised of around 48 countries, but you never hear terms like "chinese-asian", "russian-asian", "japanese-aian", "Vietnamese-asian", you are from your country, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and you are also "Asian" as in a global thing because you were born in that country, which happens to exist on the Asian continent

    On the case of America, the entire continent was named like that from way before the US existed, but suddenly only US citizens are "Americans", unlike Europeans or Asians

    Why? Nobody asked the other countries about it, nobody cared if they were going to be upset. And i said before, the Monroe doctrine teaches that the entire continent belongs to the US in some ways, and people are aware of this

    Just "let it go" and "it is what it is" is not enough to fix this, because it's the same as saying "i don't care if you are hurt or feel cheated out", and that's why resentment grew over the years and people are not happy with that

    If you look at the continent maps from other countries, there's always the name "American continent" and then one of the countries on that map is the US, there is never mention of "The Americas"

    Asia is very big, there's south, east, west, north Asia, yet i bet you have never heard or read the term "The Asias"

    There are no Chinese-asians, or similar labels for any other country on the Asian continent, there are Chinese, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean people and so on, who also happen to be Asian

    All of them are Asian, just as every single person in The American continent is American, and not just the US citizens

    But i know this will never be fixed or accepted, there will always be a way to work around it. But only for the purpose of keeping things the way they are, and that's why a lot of people in the other countries in America are not happy and even on the US country land, they feel "lesser" and rejected. There is no way to move forward if the core of the culture has it on it, that there are two kinds of Americans

    How can you unify and "do our best to get by in this very imperfect world" when at the very core of your normal daily life, the concept of "we" and "them" is affirmed in an immutable way?

    I love my "African-American" friends, and if something happens to one of them, the police report and hospital cards must likely will show this label on there
    Last edited by Mashika; 17th October 2020 at 22:39.

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  35. Link to Post #18
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Being born on the same state/country/continent makes you all the same, regardless of where your parents were born at

    Otherwise you are not American, you are British-American and that's final, just like every other person who was born on the US but from parents/roots from another country is labeled

    Being called "British-American" and not just "American", Is that something you would be willing to accept? Most people would not
    I can't disagree more. Either I am misreading you or you are nitpicking your information. I truly don't mean disrespect (I'm often lacking at choosing the right words) and I'll elaborate later. I'm on 2hrs of sleep because of my damn allergies acting up so I'll get back to you.

    Oh and I get what you're saying but nobody says British-American, they specify where they're from. So they'll say English, Welsh, etc. I've often heard many non-US folks say they think it's weird how we are so interested in taking DNA test and tracking our ancestry. It's just a cultural thing. Have you been to Miami? Or Little Italy? Or Chinatown? Has your sister gone to a black guy and said, "You're my people"? We are different and we take pride in this.

    And not directed toward you, or the OP, but the Bastard American/NA discussion is tiring. Everyone would do the same. Read the historical accounts of Spanish Missionaries or read how the French regarded the Natives in FL. It's not a US thing it is a human thing. Whoever has the biggest stick wins. It's how Egypt was united, the hieroglyphics is literally a guy with a stick bashing heads in. It's still happening to this day in the Amazon and the Congo and I'm sure elsewhere.

    EDIT: Mashika, I think we may be debating 2 different things, and if so, much of what I just said is off topic. Your discourse with Doug threw me off. But again, no sleep on my part can lead to silly mistakes (at least that's my excuse ).
    Most likely my constant lack of English skills, i'm truly sorry about that

    But see my previous post

    Have you ever heard the term "russian-asian" or "japanese-asian", i don't think so, but you do hear the one "japanese-American"

    Just letting the issue go is exactly how we got to this point, these labels are basically saying those people are not the same, they have labels to identify them as partial Americans

    Except they are not, they were born on American land, so they are full Americans. This particular issue i have only seen on the US, i have never heard of "Russian-Italian" for example, or "Russian-Pakistani", they were born in Russia and are Russians, and that's that

    The resentment built through generations, and the lack of will to change this, is what makes the US a broken country as you can see right now, "we and them"

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  37. Link to Post #19
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    Ahhh ok Mashika I hear ya. Yeah I was somewhat off topic. You're right, I agree with you. It's something I work on within my community and culture to repair our image with the world. I'm very aware of what you're saying and your frustration is justified in my eyes. This is a fascinating topic in my opinion and I could 'text wall' regarding it.
    Last edited by Strat; 17th October 2020 at 23:28.
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  39. Link to Post #20
    Avalon Member East Sun's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Invasion of America

    In the grand scheme of our process through time as in our recent history , why do the people who
    did the most damage to our western world get off free of ridicule.

    Exterminating indigenous peoples on many cotenants, taking their lands, implementing genocide
    on a large scale, on and on, but we never hear of the finger pointing directly at them, as it should be.

    Why is that? Can anyone give me an explanation that I don't already know that is obvious.
    Maybe someone can make excuses or rationalize this phenomena.

    I would like to hear what people have to say.
    Last edited by East Sun; 18th October 2020 at 01:09.
    Question Everything, always speak truth...

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