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    UK Avalon Member Dorjezigzag's Avatar
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    Default The Animal Within

    When talking about spirituality many people talk about the higher self or an aspiration for ascension.

    Of course there are many interpretations of what people mean when they express this but with some there seems to be a desire to disconnect from the earth and its inhabitants. That to be truly human is to evolve above nature.

    I personally believe that spirituality is the deepening of connection with nature that can be related to the root of all major religions and belief systems. This deepening of connection and flow leads to increased profundity and synchronicity.

    I would appreciate people's thoughts with regards to this.

    This short 5 min video explores this theme.

    Last edited by Dorjezigzag; 27th October 2020 at 18:44.
    Oel ngati kame

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    Default Re: The Animal Within

    A profound connection with nature most assuredly a / the reason why we are 'here' though not dependent of.

    Nature has a way of being a beautiful, wondrous fickle beast.




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    Default Re: The Animal Within

    Hello,

    The video is a nice compilation, and Mr. Chopra is probably correct, but I need to do my own research in order to extend on that, for what I know yoga exists for at least 3.000 years, probably a way more than that and there is mentions and even draws of ancient humans practicing some sort of yoga.

    Buddha himself for what we know from the sacred texts were an ascetic, he practiced self-denial as a measure of spiritual discipline, he also was a natural yogi, in general you will know that when reading the scriptures (sutta pitaka, vinaya pitaka, suttras), and you can see as well there is a Buddhist branch called Yogachara (yoga practice) and it develops from the Mahayana branch.

    I would like to amend that the "modern" yoga we see in gyms/studios today across the western countries, are not the original yoga, not even close to it, when I see those people practicing yoga to make their body muscular or beautiful or using almost no cloches in order to display their bodies to others, it automatically offend the entire purpose of it, also yoga is all about stretching muscles to give the practitioner flexibility (imagine a rubber band) and not build muscles up. In a nutshell modern yoga from the west will not liberate/ascend anyone quite the contrary. I can get into a very hot debate into this subject as I did with a "yoga teacher" in the west once, in my opinion there is a huge lack of respect from those people using yoga to promote their bodies, I am totally against it because it is not spiritual but sexual, hence I do not take it as serious practice.

    and Yes Call me dinosaur I do not mind!

    Buddhism and any other religion are merely the tip of an iceberg in terms of evolution.

    When you say
    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    I personally believe that spirituality is the deepening of connection with nature that can be related to the root of all major religions and belief systems. This deepening of connection and flow leads to increased profundity and synchronicity.
    I fully agree with that, Shamanism is a real proof of that.

    Despite of believe it or not I would like to end with this quote as it has the same meaning of the so called return of Jesus Christ and somehow gives some hope for people. Almost all the major religions in the world has something on these lines, it is almost a script that all follow.. interesting.

    “At that period, brethren, there will arise in the world an Exalted One named Maitreya, Fully Awakened, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, an Exalted One, a Buddha, even as I am now. He, by himself, will thoroughly know and see, as it were face to face, this universe, with Its worlds of the spirits, Its Brahmas and Its Maras, and Its world of recluses and Brahmins, of princes and people, even as I now, by myself, thoroughly know and see them”

    — Digha Nikaya, 26.
    Last edited by palehorse; 28th October 2020 at 03:55.
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    Default Re: The Animal Within

    Quote Posted by palehorse (here)
    Hello,

    The video is a nice compilation, and Mr. Chopra is probably correct, but I need to do my own research in order to extend on that, for what I know yoga exists for at least 3.000 years, probably a way more than that and there is mentions and even draws of ancient humans practicing some sort of yoga.

    Buddha himself for what we know from the sacred texts were an ascetic, he practiced self-denial as a measure of spiritual discipline, he also was a natural yogi, in general you will know that when reading the scriptures (sutta pitaka, vinaya pitaka, suttras), and you can see as well there is a Buddhist branch called Yogachara (yoga practice) and it develops from the Mahayana branch.

    I would like to amend that the "modern" yoga we see in gyms/studios today across the western countries, are not the original yoga, not even close to it, when I see those people practicing yoga to make their body muscular or beautiful or using almost no cloches in order to display their bodies to others, it automatically offend the entire purpose of it, also yoga is all about stretching muscles to give the practitioner flexibility (imagine a rubber band) and not build muscles up. In a nutshell modern yoga from the west will not liberate/ascend anyone quite the contrary. I can get into a very hot debate into this subject as I did with a "yoga teacher" in the west once, in my opinion there is a huge lack of respect from those people using yoga to promote their bodies, I am totally against it because it is not spiritual but sexual, hence I do not take it as serious practice.

    and Yes Call me dinosaur I do not mind!

    Buddhism and any other religion are merely the tip of an iceberg in terms of evolution.

    When you say
    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    I personally believe that spirituality is the deepening of connection with nature that can be related to the root of all major religions and belief systems. This deepening of connection and flow leads to increased profundity and synchronicity.
    I fully agree with that, Shamanism is a real proof of that.

    Despite of believe it or not I would like to end with this quote as it has the same meaning of the so called return of Jesus Christ and somehow gives some hope for people. Almost all the major religions in the world has something on these lines, it is almost a script that all follow.. interesting.

    “At that period, brethren, there will arise in the world an Exalted One named Maitreya, Fully Awakened, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, an Exalted One, a Buddha, even as I am now. He, by himself, will thoroughly know and see, as it were face to face, this universe, with Its worlds of the spirits, Its Brahmas and Its Maras, and Its world of recluses and Brahmins, of princes and people, even as I now, by myself, thoroughly know and see them”

    — Digha Nikaya, 26.
    Thanks for your considered response, yes there are so many elements that have infused into the Yoga that we know today. The video just really touches on some of its roots and of course, the tree has grown to have many branches. There is an Islamic influence through the Mughal empire that occupied India for hundreds of years. I believe they brought many positive influences such as through the more mystical Sufis, but also in my opinion negative influences such as increased patriarchy and prudishness. For instance look at temples pre Islamic occupation such as at Khajuraho. The image below is actually one of the more tame examples.



    A huge influence that is just touched on in the video comes from the west, of course, the British Empire also occupied India, with its own prudish sensibilities. You may notice in the video an image of Madame Blavatsky the founder of the theosophical society who had a huge influence on the yoga that we know today. There was a concept of the chakra in India pre theosophical society but the fleshed out definitions that we know today really have more to do with theosophy than ancient Indian sages. Gymnastics and ballet is mentioned as an influence on modern-day yoga but also western wrestling as well apparently!

    With regards to modern yoga, I do and I don't agree with you. Some of the earliest records of yoga show it being practised by wild people of the forest usually totally naked. Obviously, this was not in order to get a great Instagram pic lol.

    I do think that many modern yoga practitioners have forgotten the true purpose of yoga as a spiritual practice though. Whereby it is merely an exercise for aesthetic purposes. Saying that many have started out with just aesthetic goals and have been hooked, been brought into the flow by the very nature of yoga.

    Yoga is a practice, that can bring greater health and freedom in the body which can better enable a connection and flow with the source. As an example, someone with good flexibility and health could be more comfortable in meditation positions for long periods.

    Of course, the commodification and commercialisation of yoga has its negative aspects but I do believe there are some great practitioners out there that are pushing the boundaries of the practice.

    As far as the notion of Messiahs, I find myself increasingly suspicious of the concept. Of course, we can have help on the way but the only person that can really save ourselves is ourselves. The belief that spiritual experience and development will come from outside rather than within is misguided.

    Of course there can be great teachers and practitioners who know the pitfalls who can help guide you on the way but to label them a messiah in my opinion is not helpful for us or for them.

    A friend of mine had a mental breakdown while in Jerusalem and was carted off to the Jerusalem mental hospital. Inside were 7 people that believed they were the messiah all arguing about who was the special one.

    That being said if there is someone who comes along that can help many people on their way, I'm all for it. Im just saying the practice starts now and you shouldn't be waiting for anyone to get you to started.

    This is a modern practitioner of yoga who I think is great, who has a great balance of strength and flexibility, body and soul, Dylan Werner

    "After completing a tour of Iraq he spent eight years as a paramedic and firefighter in California. He then found yoga through martial arts, eventually deciding he wanted to dedicate his life to the practice.

    Today he has given more than 400 workshops in over 60 countries, taught at some of the world’s most prestigious yoga studios and inspires millions on social media."


    Last edited by Dorjezigzag; 28th October 2020 at 16:35.
    Oel ngati kame

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    Default Re: The Animal Within

    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    Quote Posted by palehorse (here)
    Hello,

    The video is a nice compilation, and Mr. Chopra is probably correct, but I need to do my own research in order to extend on that, for what I know yoga exists for at least 3.000 years, probably a way more than that and there is mentions and even draws of ancient humans practicing some sort of yoga.

    Buddha himself for what we know from the sacred texts were an ascetic, he practiced self-denial as a measure of spiritual discipline, he also was a natural yogi, in general you will know that when reading the scriptures (sutta pitaka, vinaya pitaka, suttras), and you can see as well there is a Buddhist branch called Yogachara (yoga practice) and it develops from the Mahayana branch.

    I would like to amend that the "modern" yoga we see in gyms/studios today across the western countries, are not the original yoga, not even close to it, when I see those people practicing yoga to make their body muscular or beautiful or using almost no cloches in order to display their bodies to others, it automatically offend the entire purpose of it, also yoga is all about stretching muscles to give the practitioner flexibility (imagine a rubber band) and not build muscles up. In a nutshell modern yoga from the west will not liberate/ascend anyone quite the contrary. I can get into a very hot debate into this subject as I did with a "yoga teacher" in the west once, in my opinion there is a huge lack of respect from those people using yoga to promote their bodies, I am totally against it because it is not spiritual but sexual, hence I do not take it as serious practice.

    and Yes Call me dinosaur I do not mind!

    Buddhism and any other religion are merely the tip of an iceberg in terms of evolution.

    When you say
    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    I personally believe that spirituality is the deepening of connection with nature that can be related to the root of all major religions and belief systems. This deepening of connection and flow leads to increased profundity and synchronicity.
    I fully agree with that, Shamanism is a real proof of that.

    Despite of believe it or not I would like to end with this quote as it has the same meaning of the so called return of Jesus Christ and somehow gives some hope for people. Almost all the major religions in the world has something on these lines, it is almost a script that all follow.. interesting.

    “At that period, brethren, there will arise in the world an Exalted One named Maitreya, Fully Awakened, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, an Exalted One, a Buddha, even as I am now. He, by himself, will thoroughly know and see, as it were face to face, this universe, with Its worlds of the spirits, Its Brahmas and Its Maras, and Its world of recluses and Brahmins, of princes and people, even as I now, by myself, thoroughly know and see them”

    — Digha Nikaya, 26.
    Thanks for your considered response, yes there are so many elements that have infused into the Yoga that we know today. The video just really touches on some of its roots and of course, the tree has grown to have many branches. There is an Islamic influence through the Mughal empire that occupied India for hundreds of years. I believe they brought many positive influences such as through the more mystical Sufis, but also in my opinion negative influences such as increased patriarchy and prudishness. For instance look at temples pre Islamic occupation such as at Khajuraho. The image below is actually one of the more tame examples.



    A huge influence that is just touched on in the video comes from the west, of course, the British Empire also occupied India, with its own prudish sensibilities. You may notice in the video an image of Madame Blavatsky the founder of the theosophical society who had a huge influence on the yoga that we know today. There was a concept of the chakra in India pre theosophical society but the fleshed out definitions that we know today really have more to do with theosophy than ancient Indian sages. Gymnastics and ballet is mentioned as an influence on modern-day yoga but also western wrestling as well apparently!

    With regards to modern yoga, I do and I don't agree with you. Some of the earliest records of yoga show it being practised by wild people of the forest usually totally naked. Obviously, this was not in order to get a great Instagram pic lol.

    I do think that many modern yoga practitioners have forgotten the true purpose of yoga as a spiritual practice though. Whereby it is merely an exercise for aesthetic purposes. Saying that many have started out with just aesthetic goals and have been hooked, been brought into the flow by the very nature of yoga.

    Yoga is a practice, that can bring greater health and freedom in the body which can better enable a connection and flow with the source. As an example, someone with good flexibility and health could be more comfortable in meditation positions for long periods.

    Of course, the commodification and commercialisation of yoga has its negative aspects but I do believe there are some great practitioners out there that are pushing the boundaries of the practice.

    As far as the notion of Messiahs, I find myself increasingly suspicious of the concept. Of course, we can have help on the way but the only person that can really save ourselves is ourselves. The belief that spiritual experience and development will come from outside rather than within is misguided.

    Of course there can be great teachers and practitioners who know the pitfalls who can help guide you on the way but to label them a messiah in my opinion is not helpful for us or for them.

    A friend of mine had a mental breakdown while in Jerusalem and was carted off to the Jerusalem mental hospital. Inside were 7 people that believed they were the messiah all arguing about who was the special one.

    That being said if there is someone who comes along that can help many people on their way, I'm all for it. Im just saying the practice starts now and you shouldn't be waiting for anyone to get you to started.

    This is a modern practitioner of yoga who I think is great, who has a great balance of strength and flexibility, body and soul, Dylan Werner

    "After completing a tour of Iraq he spent eight years as a paramedic and firefighter in California. He then found yoga through martial arts, eventually deciding he wanted to dedicate his life to the practice.

    Today he has given more than 400 workshops in over 60 countries, taught at some of the world’s most prestigious yoga studios and inspires millions on social media."




    I didn't mean to generalize that all yoga practice in the west is bad, but most yes they are, but as everything there is exceptions as the video you sent. I myself practiced yoga for a period of about 1 year until I realized it wasn't for me because of many issues I couldn't deal with maybe for lack of understanding it deeply or maybe I picked up the wrong school, but since then I am better doing all my stretching exercises by myself and I feel much better that way.

    A friend heavily involved with yoga told me, that are many practices world wide that involves sexual relations, where people are seduced by the instructor/teacher/master, he told me the name of the practice but I forgot it, I am not interested at all in this sort of things.

    What I see today is a lot of people getting into the trend line just in order to look good in society, because some influential friend is doing the practice or because family told they have to do that.. whatever reason.. I failed to see the point of doing anything in life when you are not doing it for the benefits it will bring to yourself and others but instead following others due to social status for the sake of looking good in society. nah not for me! In order to help others it all start with ourselves first.

    I can imagine how bizarre is practicing yoga totally naked haahaha even though I do believe our ancestors did it and some still do, I've been in India once many years ago and I saw some yogis almost naked in and around temples practicing some sort of yoga exercises, they seem to be really serious about their practices and a lot of people was near them in order to learn I guess, most were Indian people, just a few foreign though.

    I have a friend, and he is a soul surfer, also he is M.D. then he surf when he has free time, besides that he swim and run almost everyday, he is in the best of his physical condition he could be, and people always ask him, how long time he had been lifting iron in the gym to get in that physical condition.. sounds funny but he never went to the gym, even though people that doesn't know him judge for his physical appearance.

    I apologize if I am been judgemental here, it is not my intention, I am just observing what me and others close to me had been through, I have family members doing yoga and they love that, one is an instructor, I do not judge him for that, never, he is earning his living teaching others, nothing bad in doing that.

    I never paid much attention for the return of the messiah except when I am reading books that touch the subject, but not necessarily I believe that, could be or couldn't be!

    and you are absolutely right, "the practice starts now".

    Nice you brought it up about the Sufism, I always love the beauty of it, specially their group practices which is a very strong expression of the cosmos, Sufism and Buddhism are interconnected in so many ways as for example both has similarities in how they observe and understand the self and reality, it is amazing and both are very peaceful and respectful practices.

    Peace and thanks to your insightful reply, I liked the photo of khajuraho temple.
    --
    A chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason.

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  11. Link to Post #6
    UK Avalon Member Dorjezigzag's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Animal Within

    This video comes to a similar conclusion and explores the idea further.

    I found one of the comments very interesting stating that relationship between the Sanskrit word for a forest-dwelling ascetic, Shramana (श्रमण) (also related to Ashrama - आश्रम a place or station of life to learn and practice yoga) and the word Shaman, a relationship pointed out by Mircea Eliade, a historian of religion from the University of Chicago. According to him, the Sanskrit word Shramana, in its vernacular form Samana (such as found in Pali and Prakrit languages), is the ultimate origin of the Tungusic word Shaman.

    Now, it is common knowledge that Shramanas in India HAVE developed yoga, because it was a common word for forest-dwelling wandering ascetics (from the root shram = to work hard to achieve spiritual salvation). The Buddha is always referred to as the Great Shramana. The Upanishads refer to Shramanas. The Jaina masters are referred to as Shramanas. These are the three traditions that most significantly contributed to the development of yoga.

    Oel ngati kame

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