A look beneath the Holocaust Propaganda ...

[GCS1103]

Posted by Linger (here)
Speilburg has made it a point in his carrier to address the slaughter of many different groups of people, for instance his movie Amistad, and he did also cover Native American Repression and slaughter too in the Movie "Into The West"

In thre movie Amistad. Speilburg portrays the slave traders as Christians when in fact 90% were Juwish
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gUCMd...eature=related

Believe me, David Duke should not be your "source" when discussing anything concerning black people or Jewish people. In this country he is a well known personality who founded the Louisiana branch of the KKK, of which he was "the Grand Wizard". If you do not know about the KKK, perhaps you would want to google it so you can learn firsthand what they, and he, stand for.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by loveandgratitude (here)
Talmudic/zionist Jews have wreaked havoc on the real Jews for centuries. The following list show just how many countries these scumbags have gotten 'their own people' kicked out of...

... It's not blind "antisemetism" that has led to the historical persecution of the Jews. It is the talmud and those who follow it.

Oh, loveandgratitude, not more of this piffle, surely? This is so discouraging.

[Mark]

Posted by Unified Serenity (here)
I happen to believe the elites of the "Jewish" community are not real Jews of the house of Judah, but interlopers who claim Jewish heritage going back to the time of Nebuchanezzar. So, yes, they have caused the Jewish people much pain through the world, and they do hold keys to power worldwide.

I was very interested to read this comment. I came to this thread a bit reluctantly, having seen it around, but since I'm here ... yes, I agree with you. I've been following the research and work of this Jewish gentleman, Joseph Ehrlich of Senderberl and Sons Inc. for some years now. He is quite the amazing man. He won't let you call him a prophet, but he has made some quite amazing predictions over the years that have come true. He claims to have counseled 4 presidents at different times, and to have played a role in the technological development of some sort of predictive market-oriented financial technology back in the 60s and 70s. Anyway ...

his basic premise is that there is a group that is behind the Illuminati, behind the Khazars/Ashkenazim, behind the Nazis, behind all of the formal Power Elite groupings. A core of the core if you will, that has masked itself for all these centuries and that has and plans to utilize the Jewish people as the ultimate scapegoats for what have truly been their anti-divinity initiatives. The interesting thing about them is that they do have some claim to a shared heritage with the tribes of Judah. These people are the Moabites.

The Moabites are the descendants of the incestuous liaison between Lot (of Sodom and Gomorrah fame) and his eldest daughter, the night after they fled the destruction of the twin cities. Her child was Moab, her younger sister, who also got pops drunk and had her way with him, had a son named Ben-Ammi. God then forbad the descendants of either of these men to again "enter into covenant with the tribes of Israel", a warning that was broken most famously by the entry of Ruth, a princess and Moabitess, which brought the bloodline back into that of the Hebraic, contributing directly to the line of David and, eventually, Jesus.

Check out the webpage I linked above for much greater details. I have also done some research on the topic as well, linking the Moabites, who disappeared from history in a strange manner, to the Merovingians, who appeared in history in just as strange a way. If you'd like to read it, I've gone into great detail in this article, Who r the Moabites: The modern context.

There are arguments that mainstream Jewry puts forth against those of Mr. Ehrlich, but they hold little water, especially when the trial of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus and the resultant drama is taken into account. They also explain many things that are of a generally inexplicable nature as well, without this knowledge and understanding of hidden history.

[loveandgratitude]

Thank you Rahkyt. Thank you for much for your knowledgeable information. You are travelling down the same lines as I.

Are you familiar with these two authors of Jewish History -

Israel Shahak -Jewish History, Jewish Religion and The Weight of Three Thousand Years
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/I...sand.Years.pdf

Fortunately, the voice of reason is alive and well, and in Israel, of all places. From Jerusalem, Israel Shahak never ceases to analyse not only the dismal politics of Israel today but the Talmud itself, and the effect of the entire rabbinical tradition on a small state that the right-wing rabbinate means to turn into a theocracy for Jews only. I have been reading Shahak for years. He has a satirist's eye for the confusions to be found in any religion that tries to rationalise the irrational. He has a scholar's sharp eye for textual contradictions. - VIDAL GORE

Israel was an advocate for The Palaestine Human Rights Issue.



The Controversy of Zion
by DOUGLAS REED
Douglas Reed quotes Bernard J Brown. "Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history. I assert that it is wrong in principle and sterile in its spiritual ideas. Zionism is a betraval, an Eastern European proposal, fathered in this country by American Jews. . . which, if they were to succeed, would cost the Jews of America most of what they have gained of liberty, equality and fraternity, I refuse to allow myself to be called a Zionist. I am an American". 1933 Mr. Bernard J. Brown

In Chaper 2 in his book - THE END OF ISRAEL

About five hundred years before the event of 458 BC, or nearly three thousand years ago today, the brief and troubled association between Judah and the Israelites ("the children of Israel") came to an end. Israel rejected the chosen people creed which was beginning to take shape in Judah and went its own way. (The adoption of the name "Israel" by the Zionist state which was set up in Palestine in 1948 was transparent false pretence).

The events which led to the short-lived, unhappy union covered earlier centuries. The mythological or legendary period of Moses was followed by one in Canaan during which "Israel" was the strong, cohesive and recognizable entity, the northern confederation of the ten tribes. Judah (to which the very small tribe of Benjamin attached itself) was a petty chiefdom in the south.

Judah, from which today's Zionism comes down, was a tribe of ill repute. Judah sold his brother Joseph, the most beloved son of Jacob-called-Israel, to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver (as Judas, the only Judean among the disciples, much later betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver), and then founded the tribe in incest, (Genesis 37-38). The priestly scribes who wrote this Scriptural account centuries afterwards had made themselves the masters of Judah and as they altered the oral tradition, whenever it suited them, the question prompts itself: why were they at pains to preserve, or possibly even to insert, this attribution of incestuous beginnings and a treacherous nature to the very people who, they said, were the chosen of God? The thing is mysterious, like much else in the Levitical Scriptures, and only the inner sect could supply an answer.

Anyway, those Scriptures and today's authorities agree about the separateness of "Israel" and "Judah". In the Old Testament Israel is often called "the house of Joseph", in pointed distinction from "the house of Judah". The Jewish Encyclopaedia says, ''Joseph and Judah typify two distinct lines of descent" and adds (as already cited) that Judah was "in all likelihood a non-Israelitish tribe". The Encyclopaedia Britannica says that Judaism developed long after the Israelites had merged themselves with mankind, and that the true relationship of the two peoples is best expressed in the phrase, "The Israelites were not Jews". Historically, Judah was to survive for a little while and to bring forth Judaism, which begat Zionism. Israel was to disappear as an entity, and it all came about in this way:

TO READ MORE - http://iamthewitness.com/books/Dougl....of.Israel.htm


In a free state every man can think what he wants and say what he thinks
Spinoza

[loveandgratitude]

Book of Deuteronomy
The Book of Deuteronomy (from Greek Δευτερονόμιον, Deuteronomion, "second law"; Hebrew: דְּבָרִים‎, Devarim, "[spoken] words") is the fifth book of the Hebrew Bible, and of the Jewish Torah/Pentateuch. The Hebrew title is taken from the opening phrase Eleh ha-devarim, "These are the words..."; the English title is a mistranslation of the Hebrew phrase mishneh ha-torah ha-zoth, "a copy of this law", in Deuteronomy 17:18, as to deuteronomion touto - "this second law".

The book consists of three sermons or speeches delivered to the Israelites by Moses on the plains of Moab, shortly before they enter the Promised Land. The first sermon recapitulates the forty years of wilderness wanderings which have led to this moment, and ends with an exhortation to observe the law (or teachings); the second reminds the Israelites of the need for exclusive allegiance to one God and observance of the laws he has given them, on which their possession of the land depends; and the third offers the comfort that even should Israel prove unfaithful and so lose the land, with repentance all can be restored.

Traditionally accepted as the genuine words of Moses delivered on the eve of the occupation of Canaan, a broad consensus of modern scholars see its origins in traditions from Israel (the northern kingdom) brought south to the Kingdom of Judah in the wake of the Assyrian destruction of Samaria (8th century BCE) and then adapted to a program of nationalist reform in the time of King Josiah (late 7th century), with the final form of the modern book emerging in the milieu of the return from the Babylonian exile during the late 6th century.

The few people who heard Deuteronomy read in 621 BC, and then first learned what "the Mosaic Law" was to be, were told that the manuscripts had been "discovered". Today's Judaist authorities dismiss this and agree that Deuteronomy was the independent work of the Levites in isolated Judah after Judah's rejection by the Israelites and the conquest of Israel. Dr. Kastein puts the matter like this:

During the hundred years that followed the Assyrian conquest of Israel, the Levites in Judah began to compile the written Law. In 621 BC they produced Deuteronomy and read it to the people in the temple at Jerusalem.

Deuteronomy is to formal Judaism and Zionism what the Communist Manifesto was to the destructive revolution of our century. It is the basis of the Torah ("the Law") contained in the Pentateuch, which itself forms the raw material of the Talmud, which again gave birth to those "commentaries" and commentaries-on-commentaries which together constitute the Judaic "law".

Therefore Deuteronomy is also the basis of the political programme, of worldly dominion over nations despoiled and enslaved, which has been largely realized in the West during this Twentieth Century. Deuteronomy is of direct relevancy to the events of our day, and much of the confusion surrounding them disperses if they are studied in its light

That Deuteronomy was different from anything that had been known or understood before is implicit in its name, which means "Second Law". Deuteronomy, in fact, was Levitical Judaism, first revealed; the Israelites (as already shown) "were not Jews" and had never known this "Law".

eligious intolerance is the basis of this "Second Law" (racial intolerance was to follow later, in another "New Law") and murder in the name of religion is its distinctive tenet. This necessitates the destruction of the moral Commandments, which in fact are set up to be knocked down. Only those of them which relate to the exclusive worship of the "jealous" Jehovah are left intact. The others are buried beneath a great mound of "statutes and judgments" (regulations issued

15

under a governing Law, as it were) which in effect cancel them.

Thus the moral commandments against murder, stealing, adultery, coveting, bad neighbourliness, and the like are vitiated by a mass of "statutes" expressly enjoining the massacre of other peoples, the murder of apostates individually or in communities, the taking of concubines from among women captives, "utter destruction" that leaves "nothing alive", the exclusion of "the stranger" from debt-remission and the like.

By the time the end of Deuteronomy is reached the moral commandments have been nullified in this way, for the purpose of setting up, in the guise of a religion, the grandiose political idea of a people especially sent into the world to destroy and "possess" other peoples and to rule the earth. The idea of destruction is essential to Deuteronomy. If it be taken away no Deuteronomy, or Mosaic Law, remains.

If you want to read Deuteronomy then go to this link -

http://www.soniclight.com/constable/...euteronomy.pdf

[Seikou-Kishi]

So the religious right want a religious Israel, is that so hard to understand? Here in the UK, the Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and the 26 most senior of her Diocesan Bishops are members of the House of Lords, contributing to the legislation that enters into force for every single British person. That could well be decried as evidence of theocratic UK but you, loveandgratitude, do not care because that theocracy is Christian. Everybody in the UK manages to muddle along perfectly well as secular people and it's the same in Israel too. In any country with a plurality of opinion (which is all of them) there will be opinions you disagree with. Anything else is a dictatorship of opinion.

[loveandgratitude]

Which Tribe of Israel does the Queen belong to? Direct ascendant to King David I wonder.

Her Zionist Jewish Bloodline !!!

The Queen of England Jewish Blood Line goes back to Ancient Egypt...
She Owns The Federal Reserves , NASA , CIA , NSA That's Just America.
Not talking about the rest of her controlled colonies around the World...

Queen Elizabeth owns the world through her 3 CITY - STATE By the Egyptian Obelisk of Amen-Ra

London - creates money from thin air
Washington D.C - is the Bullies/ Muscle of the World
The Vatican - Controlls all Religions

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by loveandgratitude (here)
Which Tribe of Israel does the Queen belong to? Direct ascendant to King David I wonder.

Her Zionist Jewish Bloodline !!!

The Queen of England Jewish Blood Line goes back to Ancient Egypt...
She Owns The Federal Reserves , NASA , CIA , NSA That's Just America.
Not talking about the rest of her controlled colonies around the World...

Queen Elizabeth owns the world through her 3 CITY - STATE By the Egyptian Obelisk of Amen-Ra

London - creates money from thin air
Washington D.C - is the Bullies/ Muscle of the World
The Vatican - Controlls all Religions

Ah, loveandgratitude, you're always good for a laugh! I find myself unable to get through your posts without bursting into fits of hysterical laughter.

Almost all monarchs of Europe claimed descent from King David as a way of bolstering their claim to the divine right of kings. Surely you know this? When they made these claims, it was only for that reason. Look at the coat of arms of the Russian Princes Bagration -- one quarter of the escutcheon depicts the sling David used to kill Goliath. The coat of the Queen of the Netherlands, on the other hand, features two angels holding the crown aloft. They were no more descendants of King David than the Monarchs of the Netherlands are actually crowned by angels. They are fictions, flattering little boasts monarchs made about themselves. If this is the level of discernment you apply when you gather your... facts (lol!)... it's no surprise that the claims you make are so ridiculous.

Oh wait — now I think about it, the last time I saw her Maj she was twizzling the tzitziyot on the duke of Edinburgh's tallit.

-------------------------------------------------

Oh, and by the way, there's no such thing as a 'Zionist' bloodline, just like there's no such thing as a liberal bloodline, a conservative bloodline, a capitalist bloodline, a communist bloodline... is this sinking in?

Hang on, wasn't there that case of that Italian baby adopted by Saudi Arabian parents? They tried their best to bring him up Muslim, but damned if he wouldn't stop praying in Latin to the only begotten son of God... that must be his Catholic bloodline winning out.

[loveandgratitude]

Oliver - FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU, THEN THEY LAUGH AT YOU, THEN THEY FIGHT YOU, THEY YOU WIN.

RIDICULE IS THE FIRST AND LAST ARGUMENT OF A FOOL.

RIDICULE IS GENERALLY MADE USE OF TO LAUGH MEN OUT OF VIRTUE AND GOOD SENSE BY ATTACKING EVERYTHING PRAISEWORTHY IN HUMAN LIFE.

Is that your way of silencing people here at Avalon. Especially as a Moderator you are abusing your position here.

The presence of the Jewish people in the Holy Land was regarded by many as a core tenet of their faith. According to the Bible, God had ratified a covenant between Himself and Abraham, to grant the land of Palestine to his descendants.

This promise, however, was contingent on the Jewish people adhering to the Commandments of the Law. Ultimately, their Exile was a punishment fulfilled for their repeated transgressions and occult leanings.

Nevertheless, there were some among the Jewish exiles, who chose not to regard their captivity as a punishment, but as a temporary trial. Instead, they interpreted their status as God’s “Chosen” as a permanent relationship, and that the Promise to inhabit the land of Zion, or Palestine, was binding forever.

Thus, this new Zionist interpretation was closely intertwined with the mystical directions of the Kabbalah.

Therefore, this new Zionist interpretation was a bastardization of the real intent of the Jewish faith, was not an integral part of it, but was, through the centuries, increasingly imposed upon the rest of the Jewish community, by a minority committed to this diabolical scheme.

In Babylon, these heretical Jews, who refused to purge their religion of pagan influences, instead added to them the adopted practices of Babylonian magic. However, knowing that magic was forbidden in Judaism, they rejected the God of Israel, choosing instead to honor Lucifer, who they identified with the traditional enemy of the Hebrew faith, Baal. In order not to reveal their apostasy, they disguised their hidden faith as an “interpretation” of the religion, a cult now known as the Kabbalah.

This development is carefully described in the Koran, which explains that, though it was claimed the Kabbalah was derived originally from King Solomon, it was demons who taught such things, teaching them that which had been revealed to the angels Harut and Marut in Babylon.

According to the Koran, chapter 2: 101-102:
When a messenger was sent to them (the Jews) by God confirming the revelations they had already received some of them turned their backs (to God’s message) as if they had no knowledge of it. They followed what the demons attributed to the reign of Solomon. But Solomon did not blaspheme, it was the demons who blasphemed, teaching men magic and such things as were revealed at Babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (such things) without saying; “we are a trial, so do not blaspheme.” They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not harm anyone except by God’ s permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what benefited them. And they knew that the purchasers of (magic) wouldm have no share in the happiness of the hereafter. And vile was the price for which they sold their souls, if they but knew.

Borrowing from Jewish themes, therefore, these Kabbalists would seek world domination by arguing that they were preparing the world for the coming of the Messiah, and merely aiding God in bringing about His promise to institute them as rulers of the world. Having rejected the Jewish faith, however, they did not await the real Messiah, but would seek to establish their own ruler, who they would falsely claim as messiah, who would aid them in implementing the global acceptance of their occult creed.

I HAVE NOTICED WHO BELONGS IN YOUR PEANUT GALLERY AND SO HAVE MANY OTHER PEOPLE

[loveandgratitude]

THE MEROVINGIAN BLOODLINE
13 BLOODLINES OF THE ILLUMINATI

THE LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL

An appendix to the Be Wise As Serpents book about the British Royalty. The British Royalty are tied in with the 13th Bloodline.

TO READ MORE - An appendix to the Be Wise As Serpents book about the British Royalty. The British Royalty are tied in with the 13th Bloodline. From the book - 13 illuminati Bloodlines and their Mind Control.

By Fritz Springmeier, who has been imprisoned for "planning to rob banks", is one of the number one illuminati researchers in the world. He is in the class of Alan Watt, who got much of his information from Fritz. The fact that he was framed and put in prison is proof that he is as genuine as they come.

Watch his DVD by - http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...41576971107107 Here he explains the Royal Families Bloodlines.

[Second Son]

I thought this thread was about the freaking holocaust... no???
All this religious nonsense is... well, just that, NONSENSE.
The "holocaust" didn't happen. PERIOD.
I have read hundreds of pages and watched scores of videos with cold, hard, incontrovertible evidence that the whole thing is just a made up tool to give the jews their state of Israel. What else is there to know? Does anyone on this thread have any new evidence, which either proves or disproves this non-event?

MY GOD CAN KICK YOUR GOD'S A$$!!!

[Second Son]

Oh... by the way L&G, I was thanking you for your calling out of the mod for ridiculing members of a forum he's supposed to be moderating... If you or I were that overtly insulting to another member, you can bet we'd get the boot. I have been ejected for writing much less scathingly to others than is he. Just take a look at the folks who are always grabbing for the power slots, and you will see... politicians, lawyers, judges, cops, and moderators. Not all of the aforementioned are jerks, by the way, just the majority. Just my two cents.

[kathymarie]

Arrowwind made the pertinent distinction: not all Jews are Zionists. I believe there were millions of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and others killed during WWII... probably a psychic feeding frenzy. But I've also read that in the last century 100 million people (a conservative estimate) were killed because of their varied religious beliefs.

[Rocky1]

Hi everyone. Although I am new to Avalon I am interested in this thread. I read virtually all of the posts on this topic and I find the degree of hatred towards the Jews that exists amongst some of you to be highly disturbing. If loveandgratitude wants to go back to the Queen of England, then why not go all the way back to Jewish origins. The Jews trace their origins back to their patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Although Abraham's firstborn son was from his maidservant, God chose Isaac as the child of the promise made by God to Abraham to make a nation of him and his descendants. His son Ismael gave rise to Arab nations as he was the true firstborn of Abraham. In theory, even Abraham is a descent of Noah and even back to Adam and Eve (or whoever you believe represents our origins). Therefore we all share the same bloodline regardless of where our religious or cultural beliefs take us.

The Holocaust occurred. The Jews were, once again, the scapegoats of the time as they have been for thousands of years - as they are today. Israel was created out of the Holocaust, and their achievements over the past sixty plus years are simply remarkable. However, their achievements are not surprising in light of their stressing education as a means to their survival. It is through education that they developed the skills to succeed. Surely loveandgratitude and a few others who have posted cannot deny that Jews have held high positions in large part because their education has "created" their opportunities. Look at the Indians (Asian) today. Many of the doctors graduating from medical school are Indian. However when asked why this is happening, I generally ask "Who was the valdictorian of your children's high school class?" More often than not it is a person of asian descent. The emphasis is education - not handouts.

The Jews are blamed for all of the tension in the Middle East. However I offer the following observation, "If the Arabs put down their weapons, there wuld be peace in the Middle East. However if the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."

One merely has to look at the scientific achievements, the technological advancedments, the social development, the artistic mastery by Jews and it is incredible what such a small number of the world's population has accomplished.

As to Jews being called Zionists, I think I am understanding loveandgratitude to mean religious and/or social zealots. However zealots exist in every culture. It is interesting that Israelis and Palestinians live in relative peace in many neighborhoods in Israel. It is only when religious zealots (Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, etc) enter into the equation that there is discord and bloodshed.

There are many very wealthy, powerful and influential people who are "shadows". They are not all Jews. They are of every race, color and creed and are multinational. To blame the Jews for the "ills" of the world is very small minded. Jews are to be applauded for their accomplishments, not ostracized.


Shalom to one of the great and few peace loving allies of all free and rational mankind. Shame on those who want to blame them for the problems in the world today. Ask yourself what have you done to make the world a better place to live; what you have introduced into the world that imprroves the lives of everyone around you; what you would do if you were surrounded by millions of people who do not want you to exist. Instead of contempt, this small group of people should be shown "love and gratitude".

In case you can't tell, I do not mind being included as one more member of "the peanut gallery".

[Seikou-Kishi]

People can only be attacked for so long before they retaliate, but I'm sure you applaud her attacks on the Jewish people. If the powers that be wanted to use a holocaust as an excuse to establish the state of Israel, it is well within their malicious minds to actually create a holocaust. Oh I'm sure in their sick minds it is perfectly logical: "let's not pretend to kill so many people; people could just uncover the lies. Let's actually kill all those people. We have to do things properly".

Next time you think you know about the holocaust, why don't you ask somebody who was there? The grandparents and parents of people on this forum could tell you. Ask them what they and their family suffered in those concentration camps and then sit there and tell them their suffering was nothing — a bad day dream or a bit of cheese before bed. "Oh, well, it has to be nothing. I mean, you and yours lived through it, but I reckons dems are telling porkies hick hick".

Then of course there are those who imply that we'd earned it. Oh, we killed Jesus and all that, we deserved to be marched one after the other into ovens or packed into showers only to choke to death. Then there are those fool enough to believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. You know, even if they hadn't been proven to be based on a story about Napoleon Bonaparte, no Jew would be stupid enough to name a dastardly plan to take over the world with that title. That would be like sending a letter bomb with personalised stationery. Oh, but the logic of such things doesn't bother you, because you want to believe that Jews are running the world. You want to believe that the holocaust didn't happen. You want any reason you get your xenophobic paws on to say the Jews are every bit as reprehensible as you secretly suspect we are. Oh yeah, and we blew up the twin towers. I mean, why not? We're just that nasty.

What audacity — to persecute people for being who they are and then get pissed off when they scream persecution. If you don't want to hear persecution, don't persecute. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't act like every anti-semite in history and expect people to say "oh, thank you kindly sir, could I have another one? What about my Jewspawn at home?" Who'd have thought the WASPs had a sting in their tails.

Who do people like you and loveandgratitude think you are? What is it that is so special about you that you can say whatever you like and be as hurtful as you like and then get your feathers ruffled because somebody doesn't take to kindly to your hateful sputum? My 87-year-old grandmother, all these years on, is still traumatised by what happened, as is my great aunt. It breaks my heart to see her shake with the desperate grief of those she lost all these years on knowing that she is ultimately alone with her suffering and she is deep within a cold and lonely world I can never reach into to save her from.

Who are you, mighty arbiter of truth, to invalidate their feelings and their past?

Oh, but you've decided: "The "holocaust" didn't happen. PERIOD."

[Rocky1]

Sadly, 100 years from now the Holocaust will be one paragraph in a history book as a myth that might have occurred. The World Trade Center will be one paragraph as a building that was blown up by its owners for the insurance money. Osama bin Laden will have had no impact on the world in the 21st century. Viet Nam may get one sentence.

Two things occur to change history - (1) the passage of time (unless you experienced something personally, it will have little or no impact on others, especially future generations who are even further removed from the events); and (2) if enough people deny a proposition it will disappear in time.

History is only what we personally know it to be. Was Lincoln really assassinated - none of us were there. Did Jesus really walk the earth - none of us was there. Did bin Laden mastermind the destruction of the World Trade Center - 100 years from now, none of us were there. Did the astronauts really land on the moon - there are those that believe it never happened. Did the Holocaust really occur - 100 years from now, none of us were there. If enough people deny it and preach its denial, then 100 years from now it may never have occurred.

I only hope that 100 years from now, Israel and America continue to exist as free nations, and that the accomplishments of their people continue to benefit all mankind. Whether or not one choses to call it The Holocaust, the fact is that approximately 13,000,000 people died in World War II. Nearly half of them were Jewish. The annihilation of any race or culture should never be tolerated. One never knows who will be next. Whether it is Israel, Uganda, Russia, America, or anywhere else that atrocities may occur, we must never deny - and we must never forget - the events that have affected the entire world and changed the way we live. Even Australia was once a penal colony for the British. Today it is a proud nation.

[christian]

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
Next time you think you know about the holocaust, why don't you ask somebody who was there?

Let's put the heavy emotions aside and put things in perspective:

It's hard to find someone, who can tell about experiencing dying in a gas-chamber in a concentration camp. The camps obviously existed. Jews and other minorities were obviously targeted by the Nazis, put in the camps and treated gruesomely.

So how can one say "the holocaust never happened"? Well, it's possible to wrap one's head around more than one concept at a time.

In my understanding "the holocaust never happened" might just be someone indicating, that the planned extermination of Jews and other people may be an exaggeration. While evidence shows, that camps existed, it can also be seen, that there are many scientific flaws regarding the orderly mass-extermination.

[ktlight]

I have not read every single post in this thread, but it is making me feel a little sick. I do not understand why some cannot give their viewpoint without those who feel the comment is aimed at them feeling hurt. Surely, a debate takes place without emotions coming into play.

And I do not understand why the zionists call out the anti-semitism card when someone has a differing view about the holocaust.

What I do understand is that other nations have suffered traumas that no-one talks about. Does anyone remember that song "Strange Fruit"? It's not like it was only the Jewish people who have suffered - why they have not forgiven yet?

[GCS1103]

Posted by ktlight (here)
I have not read every single post in this thread, but it is making me feel a little sick. I do not understand why some cannot give their viewpoint without those who feel the comment is aimed at them feeling hurt. Surely, a debate takes place without emotions coming into play.

And I do not understand why the zionists call out the anti-semitism card when someone has a differing view about the holocaust.

What I do understand is that other nations have suffered traumas that no-one talks about. Does anyone remember that song "Strange Fruit"? It's not like it was only the Jewish people who have suffered - why they have not forgiven yet?

Maybe I can try to give you some answers to your questions.

Imagine this:

You have a relative - an elderly aunt, uncle, perhaps a parent, who is still alive and they are walking around with numbers tattooed on their arms and wrists. You ask them, what do those numbers mean? They then proceed to tell you about their lives in a concentration camp. The details of that life. How will that person feel if, living through what they did, someone looks them in the eye and says "It never happened. You are a liar. You are an 85 year old liar." That is what makes us angry and emotional. Those old men and women who are shuffling along with the numbers on the wrists are our relatives. Some of them have lost whole families in this atrocity. If your family member was killed because of their ethnic background I don't believe for a moment you could calmly respond to a jab at your expense, for being part of that background. So I get sick too, just like you, when I read some of the posts.

I am not a "Zionist" whatever you think that means. I am a Jew and yes, I know there is anti-semitism. We do get angry when we read posts that say "The Holocaust never existed." Some of us are angry because we lost family in that "fairy tale." Everyone is entitled to their view- but why come on a forum that you KNOW has some Jewish members who have said they lost family and post "the truth" (like anyone here was an actual witness to what happened). You wonder why we get upset? It's called "being human". These debates are not abstract debates- they're discussions that involved profound loses in some of our lives.

I agree with you that other nations have suffered huge loses. You want to know why no one talks about it. I can tell you why- because there are no threads started on that. The threads are always about the Jews, Israel, Holocaust, Jewish Illuminati, Jewish Bankers, etc. Why don't you start a thread about Africa and all the people that have been killed and maimed there. I, for one, would be happy to join in and commisserate with everyone about that atrocity.

These are the answers, from my perspective, to your questions. I am writing this sincerely to you, to try to explain how I feel and there is no anger here from me.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Ah GCS1103

I've bashed my head against the same brick wall. You will not find people here receptive to your thoughts, feelings or sincerity. You will be treated with clinical disregard and summarily talked down to like an errant child when you have the audacity to be offended by that clinical disregard. They insist that we split all the hairs necessary to endure their 'sincere seeking', yet will not do us the courtesy of distinguishing between Zionists and Jews. They, apparently, seem unable to accept that there are Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists and that there are Zionist and non-Zionist Jews. Talking to them will not change that. It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect fairness, but the preponderance of experience makes it unlikely in the extreme.

That, of course, refers only to a few people. It can never refer to all Avalonians who are essentially good people. Some of these good people have spoken out against the way in which these people are talking. Others, of course, watch and yet others enable them. I can only quote my own (current) signature "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I want to offer an unreserved expression of deep gratitude to all those who have treated the topic with delicacy. Even those who have serious concerns about what is and what is not known about that time but who have treated the topic with a gracious and most welcome degree of delicacy. I would also like to add my voice to those who say that Jews were not the only victims of the holocaust. Of course there were many other victims all as undeserving of what happened to them as each other; we Jews do not have the monopoly of grief, nor do we mourn alone and the tears cried for every broken family must surely be held equally devastating to any god which might exist, and too those unmourned, unmissed people whose entire families were wiped out. For every Romani, for every Slav, for every Jehovah's Witness, for every prisoner of war, for every disabled person, for every homosexual, for every dissident — surely any just God grieves equally for each. And as surely as each death and shattered life is an indictment against the world, so surely is it true that they are indictments against a past world. A world as dead as those who didn't survive, but with scars as deep as any who did. Let no person, whether from Germany or any other occupied country (since Germany itself was truly occupied) bear the weight of inherited grief; such grief is anathema to all notions of justice.

To those who have conflated the ideas boldly stating truth as you see it (and perhaps truth as abstract objectivity) with free licence to run roughshod over those who don't have the leisure to think of the holocaust in such dry and academic terms, I would say only this: when you admit into your collected body of evidence all the various arguments and data which contribute towards your overall conclusion, why can you not accept the first-hand experiences of the family members whose lives were so deeply effected? If I wanted to find out the details of a sports game, I'd ask somebody who went, not somebody who reconstructed the game afterwards from league score sheets.