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    Default On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    I've been thinking a lot about what is going on in the Charles Interview related threads. And, in noticing and thinking about the patterns I am seeing in these threads, I decided to take a closer look at the book that Bill Ryan references in the interviews and in many other places about his idea of having a dialogue in the vein of how David Bohm suggests in his book "On Dialogue".

    I think people will feel a better understanding of what is going on here if they were familiar with the concepts presented in this book.

    Here's a Bohm Dialogue - Wilipedia link

    Here's a link to Amazon, On Dialogue by David Bohm

    The wikipedia article starts out this way:

    Bohm Dialogue (also known as Bohmian Dialogue) is a freely-flowing group conversation that makes an attempt, utilizing a theoretical understanding of the way thoughts relate to universal reality, to more effectively investigate the crises that face society, and indeed the whole of human nature and consciousness.

    It lists these principles:

    Principles of Dialogue

    "Bohm Dialogue" has been widely used in the field of organizational development, and has evolved beyond what David Bohm intended: rarely is the minimum group size as large as what Bohm originally recommended, and there are often other numerous subtle differences. Specifically, any method of conversation that claims to be based on the "principles of dialogue as established by David Bohm" can be considered to be a form of Bohm Dialogue. Those principles of "Bohm Dialogue" are:

    1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"

    2. Each individual agrees to suspend judgement in the conversation. (Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"

    3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this conversation.)

    4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals' ideas in the conversation. (The group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.)

    Usually, the goal of the various incarnations of "Bohm Dialogue" is to get the whole group to have a better understanding of itself. In other words, Bohm Dialogue is used to inform all of the participants about the current state of the group they are in.

    As I looked deeper into this book, and Bohm's ideas on Dialogue, then much of what we are seeing in the forum discussions began to make much more sense to me.

    This information may help answer some people's questions as to why we don't hear much from either Atticus, or Bill. This may be why so many people feel as if they are experiencing much personal growth from participating in the conversation.

    Even though I am posting this relevant to the Charles material, I think it applies to all the various discussions going on here at Avalon, and in our other communities.



    Note Added:

    This book in pdf format is now available in the Avalon Library.

    http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Davi...20Dialogue.pdf
    Last edited by edina; 14th July 2019 at 14:06.

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    I think this really clicked for me today, when I came in on the curiously venomous comments going on back and forth in the Charles Questions 2 thread, and then read Bollinger's comments about something Charles wrote earlier that I call Manage

    Because I had been away for awhile there was a pattern of oscillation that just sort of leaped out at me.

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    Thanks for bringing this book to my attention, I'll have to give it a look. I read his book "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" some time ago, very profound and I still have it in my library. That book was definitely hard to follow at times, I hope this one is an easier read!

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    Okay, I'm going to pop a link in here to another great book on community, and communication.

    Because I believe that after the dialogue, the process discussed in this book will be where we will go next.

    Theory U, Leading from the Future as It Emerges.

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Here's another book about communication that I like better than David Bohm's book On Dialogue.

    This book, Theory U, came out in 2009, it is written by C. Otto Scharmer.

    In the forward by Peter Senge, who has himself written many books about learning, and organizational thinking writes in the forward of Theory U, "Against the backdrop of deeply shared but largely esoteric knowledge, Otto Scharmer suggests that the key to addressing the multiple unfolding crises of our time-- and the future course of human development--lies in learning how to access this source of mastery collectively."

    Otto talks about the Evolution of Conversational Field Structures
    as four structures


    1. Downloading (habitual patterns of the past)

    2. Debate (factual connection, stating differences)

    3. Dialogue (personal connection, sharing and listening to each other, inquiry, thinking together.

    4. Presencing (source connection, authentic sharing and listening to each other, dialogue attending to the deeper space, and collective presence, connecting to Source, collective flow)

    This book is a power pak of generative ideas of how we can brigde gaps, and bypass our blind spots in communicating, and soulution finding with others.


    Think outside the box, with an open mind, open heart, and open will.
    Last edited by edina; 14th July 2019 at 14:23.

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    from the wikipedia article:

    Bohm Dialogue (also known as Bohmian Dialogue) is a freely-flowing group conversation that makes an attempt, utilizing a theoretical understanding of the way thoughts relate to universal reality, to more effectively investigate the crises that face society, and indeed the whole of human nature and consciousness.

    In a Bohm dialogue, twenty to forty participants sit in a circle for a few hours during regular meetings, or for a few days in a workshop environment. This is done with no predefined purpose, no agenda, other than that of inquiring into the movement of thought, and exploring the process of "thinking together" collectively. This activity can allow group participants to examine their preconceptions and prejudices, as well as to explore the more general movement of thought. Bohm's intention regarding the suggested minimum number of participants was to replicate a social/cultural dynamic (rather than a family dynamic). This form of dialogue seeks to enable an awareness of why communicating in the verbal sphere is so much more difficult and conflict-ridden than in all other areas of human activity and endeavor.

    Participants in the Bohmian form of dialogue "suspend" their beliefs, opinions, impulses, and judgments while speaking together, in order to see the movement of the group's thought processes and what their effects may be. According to Dialogue a Proposal [Bohm, Factor, Garrett], this kind of dialogue should not be confused with discussion or debate, both of which, says Bohm, suggest working towards a goal or reaching a decision, rather than simply exploring and learning. Meeting without an agenda or fixed objective is done to create a "free space" for something new to happen.


    "...it may turn out that such a form of free exchange of ideas and information is of fundamental relevance for transforming culture and freeing it of destructive misinformation, so that creativity can be liberated." David Bohm
    Last edited by edina; 14th July 2019 at 14:09.

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    Lightbulb Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    "...it may turn out that such a form of free exchange of ideas and information is of fundamental relevance for transforming culture and freeing it of destructive misinformation, so that creativity can be liberated." David Bohm

    Finally ...


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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm



    Dialogue is supposed to make good ideas better, and bad ideas go away.
    (Keri Smith)

    I never knew this thread was here... that's the extent to which Avalon is a huge university library. I've mentioned David Bohm's On Dialogue several times myself in other posts, and so it felt fitting to bring this thread back to attention.

    Here's the book, btw:

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)


    Dialogue is supposed to make good ideas better, and bad ideas go away.
    (Keri Smith)

    I never knew this thread was here... that's the extent to which Avalon is a huge university library. I've mentioned David Bohm's On Dialogue several times myself in other posts, and so it felt fitting to bring this thread back to attention.

    Here's the book, btw:
    I actually wanted to ask you about your current take on the Scientology traning routines that deal with communication. What is your current take on them, do they work? Can they be applied in a workshop setting, maybe even in a group setting, kind of playful? I´ve always been fascinated when reading about them but never actually trained with them.
    Oh thou, let it go
    don´t stop the all pervading flow

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    Quote Posted by wegge (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)


    Dialogue is supposed to make good ideas better, and bad ideas go away.
    (Keri Smith)

    I never knew this thread was here... that's the extent to which Avalon is a huge university library. I've mentioned David Bohm's On Dialogue several times myself in other posts, and so it felt fitting to bring this thread back to attention.

    Here's the book, btw:

    I actually wanted to ask you about your current take on the Scientology traning routines that deal with communication. What is your current take on them, do they work? Can they be applied in a workshop setting, maybe even in a group setting, kind of playful? I´ve always been fascinated when reading about them but never actually trained with them.
    Yes, they work super-effectively and powerfully, 100% for sure.

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by wegge (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)


    Dialogue is supposed to make good ideas better, and bad ideas go away.
    (Keri Smith)

    I never knew this thread was here... that's the extent to which Avalon is a huge university library. I've mentioned David Bohm's On Dialogue several times myself in other posts, and so it felt fitting to bring this thread back to attention.

    Here's the book, btw:

    I actually wanted to ask you about your current take on the Scientology traning routines that deal with communication. What is your current take on them, do they work? Can they be applied in a workshop setting, maybe even in a group setting, kind of playful? I´ve always been fascinated when reading about them but never actually trained with them.
    Yes, they work super-effectively and powerfully, 100% for sure.
    Great! Do you have a link to a 100% non corrupted version?

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    Default Re: On Dialogue, by David Bohm

    Let me throw in some Henry Miller on Communication

    “Talk is only a pretext for other, subtler forms of communication. When the latter are inoperative speech becomes dead. If two people are intent upon communicating with one another it doesn’t matter in the least how bewildering the talk becomes. People who insist upon clarity and logic often fail in making themselves understood. They are always-searching for a more perfect transmitter, deluded by the supposition that the mind is the only instrument for the exchange of thought. When one really begin to talk one delivers himself. Words are thrown about recklessly, not counted like pennies. One doesn’t care about grammatical or factual errors, contradictions, lies and so on. One talks. If you are talking to some one who knows how to listen he understands perfectly, even though the words make no sense. When this kind of talk gets under way a marriage takes place, no matter whether you are talking to a man or a woman. Men talking with other men have as much need of this sort of marriage as women talking with women have. Married couples seldom enjoy this kind of talk, for reasons which are only too obvious.”
    ― Henry Miller, Sexus

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