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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    --------

    Dear Friends:

    Many of you will have seen the WORM TONGUE thread that was started yesterday by Celine.

    If you have not, you may need quite a strong stomach to wade through it to the end.

    I closed it as soon as it was brought to my attention.

    This is an extract from one of many PMs that I received after I closed it:
    Dear Bill,

    I was waiting for the cavalry to show - thanks for that. I'm not privy to what's going on, it's not important and I do not need to know. Suffice to say, I've seen nothing less than a witch-hunt going on here today/tonight and it's been awful (disgusting is more apt). I have never seen moderators behave this way, ever. For a member to be told to feck off by a senior moderator is well... I have no words.

    I understand that I am a new member to your forum and so cannot expect to know all personalities yet and how they interact or choose to present themselves, but I can tell you that I expected more from some of our senior members, it's left me speechless.
    Amen to that. I have asked Richard to leave the forum. It is no longer appropriate that he holds the position he has done for quite a long while. I here ask Celine to leave with him and to take their energies elsewhere. I am making this call, and the call is mine alone, and I believe that the forum will now settle down to a significant degree in the days and weeks to come.

    None of the other moderators have been involved in this decision, although I know that some of them are in full agreement with me. Others will protest: an understandable result of conflict of loyalties based on long friendship - and they may also leave. That is all fine.

    There are no bad people here. Only incompatibilities, human frailty in various forms, and strong differences of opinion that make it impossible for the continuity of a functioning team as currently structured. The world will continue, and so will Avalon, which is larger than any individual.

    I want to thank Richard for his hard work and commitment to the forum over a long period of time, which probably feels to him even longer. He is a good man, and he snapped.

    On my part, the final breakdown of trust happened when it was brought to my attention that he had shared with the other moderators that he intended to leave with a tell-all post that would be very deliberately negative and destructive. That may still come, but if it does, the vindictiveness that powers it will be transparent.

    I told him, when I spoke with him on the phone a few hours ago, that the call was his whether to leave with dignity - or to leave with negativity, bitterness, and a fully destructive action. He said he would indeed make that call, and ended the conversation. I hope that he makes the correct decision, for the sake of his own karma.

    I will terminate their accounts in 24 hours from now.

    I thank Richard sincerely here for his many hours of commitment to make the world a better place in this particular way in which he has been able to contribute. The pressures he has been under have been near-impossible to manage or balance. He has been torn in half with his fierce loyalty to his wife Celine, and his equally fierce loyalty to myself and the forum. They could not reasonably coexist in one person.

    Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

    The pressure Richard was under erupted in so much suppressed anger that it is self-evident that he must take his leave. I have contacted the hosting company to change all the passwords to the server and elsewhere. I cannot risk a moment of angry insanity which would destroy the heartfelt co-creation of many thousands of people over a long year of human experience in all its richness. I regret that I felt obliged to take that protective step, but it was the right thing to do.

    I regard all the moderators as my friends, and always have done. It's for them to choose whether to return my deep feeling of sincere fellowship. I expect a number of them to step down, and this is all fine. Beth has already done so, and I accepted her resignation, which she conveyed with all the dignity and grace that I would expect from her. I thank her here for her countless hours of hard work on behalf of you all, as I do Rich.

    As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.

    With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Of course it's your forum and your choice but I think you've made the wrong one. Richard snapped on one member yes, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to ask someone who has put two years of blood, sweat and tears into this forum to help you out in your quest, to leave. This whole situation leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

    Human Beings go through their lives experiencing a complex range of emotions, not only love, we are not Care Bears. I recall a time when you yourself Bill flipped out on a member (repeatedly calling him stupid) for insulting the memory of one of your passed on friends (Mr.X R.I.P). This is of course no different then Richard saying what he said to stick up for his wife. No one held it against you when that happened (at least I didn't) because sometimes we loose our cool. It's important that this happens sometime so we can learn how to better grow.

    I would never hold it against you for loosing your temper, hypocrisy, on the other hand, is a different story.

    Cheers,

    Aldous

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    --------

    Thanks, Aldous:

    My calling out Tone3Jaguar for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread and decide for yourself.

    My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

    After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    --------

    Dear Friends:

    Many of you will have seen the WORM TONGUE thread that was started yesterday by Celine.

    If you have not, you may need quite a strong stomach to wade through it to the end.

    I closed it as soon as it was brought to my attention.

    This is an extract from one of many PMs that I received after I closed it:
    Dear Bill,

    I was waiting for the cavalry to show - thanks for that. I'm not privy to what's going on, it's not important and I do not need to know. Suffice to say, I've seen nothing less than a witch-hunt going on here today/tonight and it's been awful (disgusting is more apt). I have never seen moderators behave this way, ever. For a member to be told to feck off by a senior moderator is well... I have no words.

    I understand that I am a new member to your forum and so cannot expect to know all personalities yet and how they interact or choose to present themselves, but I can tell you that I expected more from some of our senior members, it's left me speechless.
    Amen to that. I have asked Richard to leave the forum. It is no longer appropriate that he holds the position he has done for quite a long while. I here ask Celine to leave with him and to take their energies elsewhere. I am making this call, and the call is mine alone, and I believe that the forum will now settle down to a significant degree in the days and weeks to come.

    None of the other moderators have been involved in this decision, although I know that some of them are in full agreement with me. Others will protest: an understandable result of conflict of loyalties based on long friendship - and they may also leave. That is all fine.

    There are no bad people here. Only incompatibilities, human frailty in various forms, and strong differences of opinion that make it impossible for the continuity of a functioning team as currently structured. The world will continue, and so will Avalon, which is larger than any individual.

    I want to thank Richard for his hard work and commitment to the forum over a long period of time, which probably feels to him even longer. He is a good man, and he snapped.

    On my part, the final breakdown of trust happened when it was brought to my attention that he had shared with the other moderators that he intended to leave with a tell-all post that would be very deliberately negative and destructive. That may still come, but if it does, the vindictiveness that powers it will be transparent.

    I told him, when I spoke with him on the phone a few hours ago, that the call was his whether to leave with dignity - or to leave with negativity, bitterness, and a fully destructive action. He said he would indeed make that call, and ended the conversation. I hope that he makes the correct decision, for the sake of his own karma.

    I will terminate their accounts in 24 hours from now.

    I thank Richard sincerely here for his many hours of commitment to make the world a better place in this particular way in which he has been able to contribute. The pressures he has been under have been near-impossible to manage or balance. He has been torn in half with his fierce loyalty to his wife Celine, and his equally fierce loyalty to myself and the forum. They could not reasonably coexist in one person.

    Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

    The pressure Richard was under erupted in so much suppressed anger that it is self-evident that he must take his leave. I have contacted the hosting company to change all the passwords to the server and elsewhere. I cannot risk a moment of angry insanity which would destroy the heartfelt co-creation of many thousands of people over a long year of human experience in all its richness. I regret that I felt obliged to take that protective step, but it was the right thing to do.

    I regard all the moderators as my friends, and always have done. It's for them to choose whether to return my deep feeling of sincere fellowship. I expect a number of them to step down, and this is all fine. Beth has already done so, and I accepted her resignation, which she conveyed with all the dignity and grace that I would expect from her. I thank her here for her countless hours of hard work on behalf of you all, as I do Rich.

    As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.

    With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill
    Thank you Bill

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    Cambodia Avalon Member ExHaLaTiON's Avatar
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    WOW, what a mess ! And another one bites the dust......

    Dont overreact , lets stay intact.

    Love
    Last edited by ExHaLaTiON; 2nd March 2011 at 07:54.
    Is it your true self talking? Or is it your programmed self? Why do you spend hard earned money to look a certain way? Seriously. What made you think you have to look the way you look? Or sound the way you sound? People are self conscious because we've been trained that way. Perfect little consumers. Pets. Domesticated humans

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    --------

    Thanks, Aldous:

    My calling out Tone3Jaguar for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread and decide for yourself.

    My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

    After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.
    I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard' just because technically it's true. You don't follow around a little person shouting 'Midget'; you see what I'm saying? For the record I thought he was 'stupid' too. I think a lot of people are stupid (I come from Toronto, the land that lives and dies with the Toronto Maple Leafs, how stupid is that!!), but for the most part I keep it to myself . I hope you reconsider your position that's all I can hope for.

    Cheers,

    Aldous

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Dear Mr. Ryan,

    We have never spoken but today has been a tough day for me. I am okay about has taken place and I was always prepared for consequences. I am committed to the success of this site and I hold out the intentions of acting at the right time, in the right way, and for all the right reasons.

    I have been contacted by several other sites, I came from Dailykos and sent people here from there. I was actually very surprised by this and have had no such experience before. Since I stopped doing politics because I find it unproductive and kind of like many you have interviewed and I respect here -- I believe there has to be an intersection of politics, science, and spirituality. If I can only choose one I choose spirituality.

    I have also been asked to do a radio interview by a small site essentially talking about cognitive dissonance and using this site as an example. I have declined because I do not see that as the solution to any thing. And in all honesty, due to my brain damage I do not speak that well.

    I did post on the Mists of Avalon and I do not think it is negative to either this site or you. In that post, I reiterated my commitment to Avalon and my wanting to work for healing of us all.

    More than anything I want to take some deep breaths and just be here and I am not moving forward with anything for a while. I have no idea what is true or not true.

    So I decided that the one thing that may calm down a lot of fears is to ask you this one question. Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers. I think you have the right to do this any way you desire but I think it is only fair to know how it works. I know for me personally this would eliminate a lot of concerns I have now. Just knowing how things work.

    I sincerely appreciate your time and consideration in answering this.

    Jai
    Last edited by write4change; 2nd March 2011 at 08:12.
    :behindsofa:Beware the axis of sanctimony.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    .......................
    Last edited by chelmostef; 2nd March 2011 at 08:14.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Aldous (here)
    I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard'
    We also make an effort here to distinguish between reports worthy of further consideration, and reports that lack such substance.

    This was not just a labeling of a random attribute. It was a discernment on a matter of importance to the matters this site specializes in.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by write4change (here)
    Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?
    No, in general.

    The sender can see the PM

    The recipients can see the PM

    Anyone they forward a PM to can see it

    If a recipient reports the PM, say with concerns that it violates a website guideline, then the mods can see the reported PM

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by Aldous (here)
    I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard'
    We also make an effort here to distinguish between reports worthy of further consideration, and reports that lack such substance.

    This was not just a labeling of a random attribute. It was a discernment on a matter of importance to the matters this site specializes in.
    ...................
    And the Cow goes MOOOOOOOOOOOO

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  23. Link to Post #12
    Avalon Member watchZEITGEISTnow's Avatar
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Perhaps a certain threshold for 'whistle-blowers' should be set as not to allow frauds and charlatans in...

    Just sayin' (as they say)


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    United States Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by watchZEITGEISTnow (here)
    Perhaps a certain threshold for 'whistle-blowers' should be set as not to allow frauds and charlatans in...
    Ultimately, the only threshold I know of is the judgment of good people.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Aldous (here)
    Of course it's your forum and your choice but I think you've made the wrong one. Richard snapped on one member yes, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to ask someone who has put two years of blood, sweat and tears into this forum to help you out in your quest, to leave. This whole situation leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

    Human Beings go through their lives experiencing a complex range of emotions, not only love, we are not Care Bears. I recall a time when you yourself Bill flipped out on a member (repeatedly calling him stupid) for insulting the memory of one of your passed on friends (Mr.X R.I.P). This is of course no different then Richard saying what he said to stick up for his wife. No one held it against you when that happened (at least I didn't) because sometimes we loose our cool. It's important that this happens sometime so we can learn how to better grow.

    I would never hold it against you for loosing your temper, hypocrisy, on the other hand, is a different story.

    Cheers,

    Aldous
    if Richard just "snapped" it might be easier to recognize the validity of your argument here, but you have to admit, it was a little more than that people snap all the time on this forum and don't get banned. Richard went all freddy krueger on that guy. when certain lines are crossed, there is simply no turning back. Bill had no choice on this one.

    Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argumennt on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    ..yes but was it listened to?

    All i saw was people killing other people in the rush to board the train...

    ..never said it would be an easy thing to achieve - it is a hardy.

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    Sweden Honored, Retired Member. Jorr passed on 31 May, 2012.
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by write4change (here)
    Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?
    No, in general.

    The sender can see the PM

    The recipients can see the PM

    Anyone they forward a PM to can see it

    If a recipient reports the PM, say with concerns that it violates a website guideline, then the mods can see the reported PM
    In the rules Ive read its said that its not allowed for members to use someones PM in public.

    Is it also forbidden to forward a PM to someone elses PM box without the writers permission. And if so, where is that written?

    Love and carrots

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Quote Posted by Chinaski (here)
    Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argumennt on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there.
    Richard completely removed Lee_B from the database. I can't unban him, because his record was permanently deleted and he no longer exists. It was an extraordinary action.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    Hi bill, you may have read my posts in the worm tounge thread and thought perhaps my comments were a bit paranoid. I will state I have had no back room dealings of any nature in this facade.
    I will also say I have watched this happening and its a conceited effort to take down Avalon, if you look closely you could see the wedges being hammered in... People are pitted against each other with one intention.

    Now as we have heard things are event driven this is my biggest concern.

    It this purely to shut us down before Avalons anniversary whose to say, perhaps something of a bigger nature afoot.

    We all need to realise that potentially something quite large is going on, of course that is speculation, make of it what you will.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    This seems a reasonable and measured response from Bill to an unfortunate incident. I am impressed that Richard and Celine are allowed to have a final word. That is very wise and in the best interests of transparency.

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    Default Re: An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

    The website provides a mechanism to allow you to forward a PM you receive, and there is no all encompassing rule against doing so. You should not forward a PM without some adequate understanding with the sender that it is ok to forward it, just as with anything else that someone else tells you, by whatever medium.

    But I'm getting off topic here - sorry.

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