An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

[HURRITT ENYETO]

Can i personally thank Beth and Richard (both Admins) for all their hard work and thier freindship (in beths case) you have made this forum what it is and are both special people.
I truly will miss you and wish you all the best in all your future endeavor's
Yesterdays incident was regrettable and i played a small part saying that i thought one of Richards comments was ammusing which was a stupid thing to say.
We live and learn.

[bodixa]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by write4change (here)
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers.

As best I know, no admins or moderators can ever read members' private messages. I certainly can't, and have never thought of doing so. Richard has had a deeper level of access to the inner workings of the forum software, but I believe he cannot either.

It is possible - there are at least 2 ways.

One is a VBulletin 'extension' that you can install. The other is that anyone with the skill and the usernames/passwords can get into the database entries directly using something like phpmyadmin - it's all sitting there.


Sad story. Shame it had to happen.

[Tuza]

And some of you members are younger than my three kids. Eventhough the youngest will be 29 this month they are still my babies, that is how I view them.

Having said that I am going to keep my old butt in this forearm until I look like a penguin because I care about you kids while I am still wearing this meat suit.

So, having a couple of very well known people in the conspiracy area I can count on as being good friends (which I wont name) who are not members here, if I feel my input is necessary I shall be herewith putting it forth. If I feel something is definitely amiss from now on I shall be espousing it.

Richard you sweated blood, sweat and tears here, not a very nice way to depart after all your hard work, but you will be a lot less stressed and you wont have to put up and shut up anymore.

[Celine]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
--------

Thanks, Aldous:

My calling out Tone3Jaguar for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread and decide for yourself.

My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

If it;s true its an acceptable insult... i will remember that when i take my leave..

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Aldous (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
--------

Thanks, Aldous:

My calling out Tone3Jaguar for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread and decide for yourself.

My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard' just because technically it's true. You don't follow around a little person shouting 'Midget'; you see what I'm saying? For the record I thought he was 'stupid' too. I think a lot of people are stupid (I come from Toronto, the land that lives and dies with the Toronto Maple Leafs, how stupid is that!!), but for the most part I keep it to myself . I hope you reconsider your position that's all I can hope for.

Cheers,

Aldous

He has accussed me of being unstable many times... but i guess if its true... then using any word as an insult is ok...

i am not upset ...just learning

[Celine]

Posted by jorr lundstrom (here)

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by write4change (here)
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

No, in general.

The sender can see the PM

The recipients can see the PM

Anyone they forward a PM to can see it

If a recipient reports the PM, say with concerns that it violates a website guideline, then the mods can see the reported PM

In the rules Ive read its said that its not allowed for members to use someones PM in public.

Is it also forbidden to forward a PM to someone elses PM box without the writers permission. And if so, where is that written?

Love and carrots

This was done by many ppl including Bill

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by bodixa (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by write4change (here)
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers.

As best I know, no admins or moderators can ever read members' private messages. I certainly can't, and have never thought of doing so. Richard has had a deeper level of access to the inner workings of the forum software, but I believe he cannot either.

It is possible - there are at least 2 ways.

One is a VBulletin 'extension' that you can install. The other is that anyone with the skill and the usernames/passwords can get into the database entries directly using something like phpmyadmin - it's all sitting there.


Sad story. Shame it had to happen.

Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by ace (here)
I Don't know Richard never spoke to him.

I know this, the situation the "MAN" was put in last night was "Beyond" what many could imagine.
He strikes me as a man of honour, who works relentlessly in a quite dignified manner.

It's a sad day for many.

Richard: You gave us a rear glimpse of your emotions with the butterfly lady tale.

I Know I am nobody here, more of clown than a wise man,
it's just my way of dealing with life.

I don't feel very funny today.

For what it's worth.

I am sorry.

Ace

Richard is a ver none emotionaly reactive man... Bill pushed him to the limits...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by chelmostef (here)
Avalon was working and going along nicely up until Christmas. I have to question everything up until that point.

Is this just a loss of temper that happens sometimes or is there something else at work.... I have to question the motivations upon what has happened here.

Is this an Conceited effort against Avalon to blow itself up? This is the question I ask myself, I have watched the wedges being stuck.

Atticus arrival was badly managed.... the stres this put the mod team was unrealistic...

A true management team would have had a lot more ressources to help them...

Bill but a huge load on volunteers

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Celine (here)
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

[Hawkwind]

I said more or less this before in another post, but it seems worth repeating here. If Charles is being straight with us, then there are very powerful people, (including some of the planet's best psychics with access to technologies far ahead of anything in the public sector), who would have a vested interest in stopping what's going on here. If Charles isn't being straight with us then his most likely reason for his being here would be to take Bill down and tear Avalon apart. Bill has already mentioned that Charles was able to plant a specific thought in his mind (go to the Swiss Air desk and ask for a standby ticket) and Charles later confirmed this. Is it so difficult to believe then that feelings of uncontrolled rage or deep betrayal could also be sent someone's way? One way or another I'm sure Avalon and her members are the focus of powerful forces aimed at causing unrest here. I'd like to ask everyone to be mindful of this at least as a possibility, and the need to stay as centered as possible when participating in discussions here. The best way I've found to deal with agent provocateurs, for example, is to remain in good humor and laugh at their attempts. If I can't do that, I've found that walking away from the situation for a bit and listening to music or working in my garden helps. Yes, I know all of that may strike some people as a bit paranoid, but as the saying goes- just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I'm very sad at what has happened, so I can only imagine how Bill, Richard and Celine are feeling. Much love to you all.

[Celine]

Posted by butcherman (here)
well said bill, this is a sanctuary for like minded people. please protect this place from what can only be described as a thuggish school play ground mentality, it has no place on these pages.
over the past 5 years the camelot school of life has kept me going through thick and thin keep up the good work .

it did deteriorate to that didnt it...

Bill has a big responsibility in that ...but i do not believe he is man enough to admit it

[DevilPigeon]

Posted by perfectresonance (here)

Posted by write4change (here)
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

I'll answer this one in a generic sense.

You must never assume that any computer system, such as a forum, is operated in true privacy.

At all times, always, you rely on the integrity of the person/people who are in control of the technology.

If such people have a different outlook, different agenda, or hidden objectives, then that sort of trust is misplaced.

It basically comes down to this: NEVER write anything in a PM on a forum that you couldn't really stand behind if it became public.

Simply write everything assuming it already IS being read by others.

Finally, it depends on the forum software, how it is configured and at what level of integrity the admins/mods operate. But yes, there is theoretically NOTHING that stops them from accessing anything and everything if they CHOOSE to do so.

Or to share it with people that do not have such access.

Funnily enough, I was warning people about that EXACT same thing just in the last 24 hours. I hope they are taking notes.

Finally, a practical answer: If you have the need to have a private conversation, use the PM facility to exchange details on Skype IDs, email addresses or other such methods so the conversation can take place under the noses of different computer techs, admins and mods that have no knowledge or investment in what you end up sharing.


EDIT: (an afterthought - sorry)

And a warning: Just because you DELETE something and it disappears from view? It is probably not gone. Just flagged to no longer be displayed. Think about that before you write anything.

i agree with that, but just to expand slightly...

at the back-end of the majority of forum sites is a MySQL database. if you've got sufficient access to the server that this sits on, then i'd suggest that you've got sufficient access to all the base tables that comprise a forum - EVERYTHING. if you've got a basic knowledge of SQL, and can figure out how the tables join, it's very easy to write a query that will output whatever info you want....

and the point about deletions is also worthy of another mention - it's considered good practice (eg from an audit/legislative perspective) not to delete records, but merely mark them as unavailable.

[Celine]

Posted by chelmostef (here)
Anyone who wants to tell their story should be able to come here...IMO
We have to use our discernment

Yes... writting things down... timelines etc... actions taken or not...

is good advice

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by dejavu (here)
I have only been posting for a short while and have recognised with fresh eyes there are some tensions and difficulties in Avalon just now. I came to this sight as a truth seeker and found it difficult to swallow the internal tensions that were spilling out over many posts. There does seem to be big changes afoot and people react in different ways. Unfortunately two dedicated people seem to be causalities of what might be described as 'war' and I'm sorry about that. However, necessary in my opinion and it was done according to what Bill has written in this post with care, love, regret and much integrity. As I mostly watch from a distance I see good people here for good reasons being distracted from the 'truth' with internal politics, Charles and the following negativity. I hope this is a turning point and people can focus on what's important and remember why they joined this forum in the first place.

Yes he is well trained to write and speak publicaly...something many admire in him,,,so when i saw the opposite in private..i was floored

[manny]

celine
do you remember the conversation that me you and richard had the other night on chat.
where a member claimed it was possible to hack into peoples account on here.
i asked richard to review the conversation and check into it.
i believe that it was dismissed.

bill is there a need to ask celine and richard to leave.
why not just take a couple of weeks break.
love and peace

[ace]

Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

[Celine]

Posted by Agape (here)
It's a savior decision , thanks Bill . After countless unpaid hours spent on administrating and moderating such a huge forum for almost 2 or 3 years ,
their family schedule and ordinary run have to be seriously affected .

Maybe we all need to breathe more than to type and watch our wives back on Internet forum ?

I'd say , dear Rich and Celine, give yourself a freedom .

Life does not have to end in hurts .

Thanks for your concern eva..

But when i informed you in pvt (a desion that broke my heart)..tha Atticus was talking to Barry (without telling him he was Atticus) ...you immedietly told Bill..

And this is part of the beggining of the end..

I had been keeping the secret of who Atticus was (BMW) but felt Barry should know ... even if Bill didnt.

Your reasons for telling bill are unknown to me ...but..... it was catastrophic...

I did it because i love barry.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Chuck (here)
Bill, I suspect this has been a very difficult time for you as well as for Richard, Celine, Beth and of course all the other mods and administrators. I am sorry for Avalon’s loss. Those three have had significant influence on building a dynamic, inspired forum.

I join with you in giving my heartfelt thanks to Richard, Celine and Beth for their service to help bring knowledge, foster fellowship, inspire contemplation and bring a smile to a fellow pilgrim.

I honor the light within you... and you and you and you!

Hello Chuck..thank you...and dont worry the flowers for your daughter will stillbe stunning!!

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by leelah (here)
*my first post was a mistake, apologies, this is what I should have wrote here.
I feel very sad for those that are involved, I knew none of them personally but as a stranger watching events unfold it was an old storyline that has been played out over and over….

Celine became empowered by Richard’s position, it would have been hard not to do, she was emotionally attached to the forum. Gypsy woman challenged that position and it became a power struggle. Richard was caught right in the middle and obviously, his wife comes first…

It’s always a bad idea to mix business with pleasure; it’s a well known saying for a very good reason.

Lets hope this can be a good learning process for all.

Avalon is only at risk if people decide to use slander and accusations against it’s main players, think carefully before you post….

Thank you ..very good advice and observation...

Bill would you say your...emotions...and ..attractions ...got in the way??

[Anchor]

vbBulletin out of the box, does not provide the ability for admins to read peoples PM's - and if such a dishonourable thing were to be done, real effort needs to be expended.

However, one can add extensions to the software that makes it possible - if this has happened it is easy to verify, and concealment of this requires collusion in a manner that is difficult to maintain. Independent audit can reveal the signs.

And DevilPigeon explained the SQL approach.

That fact that either of these things are possible - does not mean it actually happened it just means that it may have.

I would be amazed if any of the current administrators with back end access would had abused their position in this manner.

[Tommy]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Celine (here)
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

This is true indeed Bill, it is possible with the right knowledge or tools. Even if this site was encrypted, but one (admins) has back-end\server\site access it is possible to access all site data through (as mentioned) phpMyAdmin or by using simplified extensions (basically doing the same thing, but for novice SQL users.

I am not saying that anyone has done this (how could I know), but I think it is only fair to give you the information since you apparently did not know about this.
Personally I have always (since working with Kerry) been aware of this fact, and because of it I had to use even stronger discernment finding the right admins\moderators.

It is all about character and integrity when it comes down to it.

Just wanted to add this, other than that I hope you all find your way in good health. This was a very unfortunate ending of a large chapter.

My sympathies to you Bill for the situation you have been put into, I do not envy you one last bit...

All the best,

Tommy

Post update:

Like John said, if using an extension for this purpose then it would be easy to figure out (if it has been done)

However, if has been done through SQL queries then it would be a lot harder (if not impossible) to track down who\what\when whomever did it (if at all).

[ace]

Posted by seeingterra (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Celine (here)
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

This is true indeed Bill, it is possible with the right knowledge or tools. Even if this site was encrypted, but one (admins) has back-end\server\site access it is possible to access all site data through (as mentioned) phpMyAdmin or by using simplified extensions (basically doing the same thing, but for novice SQL users.

I am not saying that anyone has done this (how could I know), but I think it is only fair to give you the information since you apparently did not know about this.
Personally I have always (since working with Kerry) been aware of this fact, and because of it I had to use even stronger discernment finding the right admins\moderators.

It is all about character and integrity when it comes down to it.

Just wanted to add this, other than that I hope you all find your way in good health. This was a very unfortunate ending of a large chapter.

My sympathies to you Bill for the situation you have been put into, I do not envy you one last bit...

All the best,

Tommy

If it does not kill you. It will only make you stronger.

This place will sore to greater heights.

And the sun will shine.

As good people find their way home

To the promised land.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=fg3vzl_VwLc

Ace

[Adaiahsshadow]

Posted by ace (here)
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Ace. The reason being is that I never discuss someone else in PM, however I have many times worked with people concerning what they feel are personal issues. Seeing as you are one of my friends does that mean that if I came to you with a personal issue, you would have no problem discussing it publicly without my consent? I sincerely hope not.

Namaste.

[Celine]

Posted by Hawkwind (here)
I said more or less this before in another post, but it seems worth repeating here. If Charles is being straight with us, then there are very powerful people, (including some of the planet's best psychics with access to technologies far ahead of anything in the public sector), who would have a vested interest in stopping what's going on here. If Charles isn't being straight with us then his most likely reason for his being here would be to take Bill down and tear Avalon apart. Bill has already mentioned that Charles was able to plant a specific thought in his mind (go to the Swiss Air desk and ask for a standby ticket) and Charles later confirmed this. Is it so difficult to believe then that feelings of uncontrolled rage or deep betrayal could also be sent someone's way? One way or another I'm sure Avalon and her members are the focus of powerful forces aimed at causing unrest here. I'd like to ask everyone to be mindful of this at least as a possibility, and the need to stay as centered as possible when participating in discussions here. The best way I've found to deal with agent provocateurs, for example, is to remain in good humor and laugh at their attempts. If I can't do that, I've found that walking away from the situation for a bit and listening to music or working in my garden helps. Yes, I know all of that may strike some people as a bit paranoid, but as the saying goes- just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I'm very sad at what has happened, so I can only imagine how Bill, Richard and Celine are feeling. Much love to you all.

Ok this is the last post i make on this thread...


Richard has been an essential part of everything here.

This is a very big issue,.,and richard should never go..

Bill..

I will go...never come back...i will keep my word and never talk about all the things you are worried i will talk about.

Richard belongs on this trip with you.

The bomb threat...if i know my husband.... was his way of getting you to respond, he knew one f the mods would tell you.

His thought process is always about Avalon... your behavior was indicating to him that you had 0 intentions of dealing with the problems at hand...he felt like a parent without choices... you put him in positions time and time again, where he felt he had no choice..

These are volunteers....giving more then any i have ever seen on line...please tell me what you offerd as support?

They went above and beyond the call of duty many times.. Richard was asking you to do the same...and you failed him

So...as i said above...i will go..

one word here..or in pvt will be enough.."ok"<--just say that...and you wont need 24 hours..

Sit and talk ..WITH richard not at him... and i promise it will work out..

Richard and i both had one card to play ...and we lost.

But its just one hand...

This is the 11th hour...

Please take more time to think this thru... Richard is much more important here then i am...

with love...and deep sadness... i am sorry for any pain or trouble i have caused anyone...it was never my intent. All i wanted to do was be with my husband... and to help Avalon...this is all i truly wanted you to understand bill...please, in respect to the time and heart we both gave you and the forum...

i ask for forgiveness..

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Celine (here)
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Bill you were at the table..at the coffee shop..and Richard told you

[ace]

Posted by Adaiahsshadow (here)

Posted by ace (here)
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Ace. The reason being is that I never discuss someone else in PM, however I have many times worked with people concerning what they feel are personal issues. Seeing as you are one of my friends does that mean that if I came to you with a personal issue, you would have no problem discussing it publicly without my consent? I sincerely hope not.

Namaste.

Have i ever.

Ace

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Celine (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Celine (here)
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Bill you were at the table..at the coffee shop..and Richard told you

This is now a little like that scene in A FEW GOOD MEN with Jack Nicholson.

You're damned right we read Private Messages!!

This is totally not funny, of course. That part of me that habitually makes references to movie moments had to make the link. I guess humor is a form of attempted denial. I really did not want this to be true.