An important announcement following the closure of the WORM TONGUE thread

[Tommy]

Posted by perfectresonance (here)

Posted by seeingterra (here)
Just FYI to all reading: Even though we now know that reading PM's is technically possible, we can not simply jump to our own conclusions about this. We are talking about the integrity of real people here, and unless one has concrete examples or suspicions to back this up I think it should remain only for future consideration. Win-win, we learn something either way..

I for one just stated the technical facts about the question.

Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Yes, indeed she did. Remember this is new to Bill, hence the report suggestion. Details, names, etc.

If one wants to work out a situation\case like this, data is of the essence.

[Adaiahsshadow]

Posted by ace (here)
It's how little groups are formed, it's were us and them is created. It's human nature.
The last 24hrs you are witnessing the effects of "talking in private" Healing takes place just as effective
if not more effective out in the open (More people benefit)

I do see your point.

But we are talking about "Changing the World"

This has to be done "As a whole group", That's were the power is.

Respect
Ace

I agree with you on the aspect of what was discussed privately should not have been. And please don't think I'm saying I don't trust you as that is not the case. However for instance I'm sure you as well have helped a friend or loved one with something they did not feel comfortable discussing openly. Though their respect of your view and knowing you would not judge them on it, but help them find their way through it, has allowed them to confide in you. This is the place where some of the greatest healing takes place, because the two involved become united by the action alone. It is also commonly the only place where an individual dealing with an issue of this level can find healing comfortably.

Namaste.

[Anchor]

Admins, (Richard, Beth, Luke, Fredkc)

have you ever read private emails of members that have not otherwise been passed to you through the normal PM system, or that were posted on the forum by others, or were posted on the forum in the moderator private discussion areas or that were sent to you as a result of someone using the abuse reporting system ?

Simple question.

So far we have not seen a definitive answer - just innuendo and hearsay by people who do not seem able to speak the entire truth.

It is pissing me off.

John..

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by perfectresonance (here)
Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Sorry - she was not precise in her statement and Bill did not confirm her assertion that he was told, nor did either of them state exactly what was told at the coffee table.

This is serious because, and more to the point, if Richard did do this, he should not come back as administrator ever!

I think there is confusion in this and it needs addressing before this will go away. If any other admin breached the PMs inappropriately they too should resign.

John..

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by leelah (here)
Though I have used P.M’s myself on occasion, I would say they have a very bad side to them. They are too convenient to use when one is not thinking clearly. It would be better to gather yourself before reaching for the button to hold a private conversation with anyone, many things are said in haste!

PM's have their good side as well. I have used them to help guide others in my moderator role, and some other more seasoned members here have used them to help guide me, as I learn this place.

Most of us have some reluctance to expose all our weaker aspects publicly, so it is easier to discuss some things in a more private setting.

[zebowho]

Posted by seeingterra (here)
.......****, I really think you should send a detailed report to Bill (if you have not already). If this is a fact then it needs to be dealt with now!

Right and I would be looking for isolated scripts within the file structure. I'm not saying they are there but something of this nature in ANY portal/forum system isn't standard or an add on module and would most likely be an isolated script (file).

They are all right, Richard, Celine, Tommy, John. This can be done but "HAS IT been done". Again, its not a standard feature or add on module for any portal/forum system I've seen and I've installed several different versions, both php and asp based. Tommy is correct though...it has to be verified now!

-z

[Luke]

Posted by John (here)
Admins, (Richard, Beth, Luke, Fredkc)

have you ever read private emails of members that have not otherwise been passed to you through the normal PM system, or that were posted on the forum by others, or were posted on the forum in the moderator private discussion areas or that were sent to you as a result of someone using the abuse reporting system ?(...)

No, and I have never heard from any other admin about doing so.

[GoldenYears]

Thank you Richard, Celine, and Beth for all your hard work. Im really sorry it came down to all this.

I still stand by the fact that I think GW had a big part in all of this going down. I would only hope Bill does not allow her to return here.

[perfectresonance]

Posted by seeingterra (here)

Posted by perfectresonance (here)

Posted by seeingterra (here)
Just FYI to all reading: Even though we now know that reading PM's is technically possible, we can not simply jump to our own conclusions about this. We are talking about the integrity of real people here, and unless one has concrete examples or suspicions to back this up I think it should remain only for future consideration. Win-win, we learn something either way..

I for one just stated the technical facts about the question.

Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Yes, indeed she did. Remember this is new to Bill, hence the report suggestion. Details, names, etc.

If one wants to work out a situation\case like this, data is of the essence.

Oddly enough, that's where this huge mess loops back on itself.

It was the very process of trying to make Bill aware of the suspected breach in site confidentiality that caused this Celine/Richard mess in the first place.

Bill knows who to contact to get both the hard and the soft data - if he's got 10 hours to spare (<-- my "humour" Bill)

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by John
Simple question.

Yes, John, there is not yet a definitive answer. But as zebowho describes in post #105, there is more evidence to be gathered than just personal testimony. A bit of patience would be appreciated, if you could.

[manny]

just a thought
how many people will leave here and join charles site.
the master of manipulation,stated he was sent to split bill and kerry.
next avalon?
how many people have left already.
how many people said they may leave soon.
is there a connection?

[Star Gazer]

There are many questions here that need to be answered directly and fully.

[Anchor]

Posted by Paul (here)
A bit of patience would be appreciated, if you could.

Thanks. I have said what I wanted say. I am patient

[greybeard]

The young man who pushed Celine and Richards buttons was in touch with me at the time all this was going on last night,
He was greatly influenced by Gypsy Woman.
I pointed out some things to him, ie that she tended to create problems and was a bit paranoid though I liked her.
I asked him to stop provoking the situation, I warned him that perusing what he believed to be true could be to the cost of many.
That it could lead to the end of Avalon.
I told him that he only had part of the picture. Who has the whole picture here?
His nose was out of joint as he felt he has significant information regarding Charles which had been ignored by Bill and the Mods.
He told me had given the info to admin. I dont know what the information is,

He persisted in baiting Celine inspite of my advice and see the end result.
Now here was a person who as far as I know had only been here a short time bringing down on purpose two people who have served Avalon for years.
Every one has a weak spot and if you know that weakness it is easy to provoke a response and further more when you know what the response will be it is irresponsible to continue. He did

Charles is very astute, he said that people of integrity are the easiest to manipulate as they follow set rules of behavior.
He also said that divisive thing tend to happen around him.
I like Charles, I would not follow him, but his appearance here was miss handled.
Since that video was released on u tube and here we have seen turmoil like never before.

I dont take sides though I care about Avalon, Bill, Richard and Celine. (in no particular order)


Everybody makes mistakes

To err is Human to forgive is Divine.

People are taking sides without a full picture of what is going on or went on.
Can we resist the temptation to do this?

This is is a great place It seems a bit like Titanic at the moment.
I have no suggestion as to how we can move on.
But we can

Chris

[Omni]

Posted by ace (here)
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I am very strongly against this minus the transparency part. PMs are important to me on every forum I am on. I have had many great PMs on this site, and not one bad experience. I think the people at Avalon are responsible enough to use PMs just fine a majority of the time.

As some may know, my posts/thoughts are often controlled by mind control, and an AI... When people PM me, this AI at times gives better information as it would be subjected to much less people. Taking away the PM feature just because a bad situation happened with it is not reasonable IMHO. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth...

[Lord Sidious]

Some of you will recall that I tried to remain neutral in that thread.
What made me change my mind was the fact that lee appeared to be stirring to get a reaction and so he attacked Celine with the idea of getting a reaction from her and/or Richard.
He got a reaction from Richard and then laughed at him when he reacted in pain for his wife.
Remember that the relationshop between a man and a woman is sacred and not something to play with, let alone provoke to reactions.
Speaking for myself, I would not tolerate someone kicking my woman, whether in text or reality.

Let me say this, I don't know the background to any of this, it is obviously something that didn't occur yesterday.
I don't know who is wrong and who is right and I don't believe I could figure that out, but it isn't important.
We are still bleeding valuable members and we couldn't afford this before, let alone now.
This shows, in my opinion, that there is still some unresolved issue/s that if not fixed, this will just keep boiling away, hidden until the next explosion.
I consider this project too important for us to be behaving like this.
The whole thing makes me sad.

Posted by ace (here)
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

As I said in that thread, this is something I used to keep in contact with people here on a day to day basis.
Please don't take this away from me.
And you can't punish the innocent for what others are alleged to have done, that is how the system that we all are enslaved by works and we do NOT want that mentality getting into this site.

Posted by leelah (here)
Though I have used P.M’s myself on occasion, I would say they have a very bad side to them. They are too convenient to use when one is not thinking clearly. It would be better to gather yourself before reaching for the button to hold a private conversation with anyone, many things are said in haste!

Friendships should be able to be formed out in the open, this is the new way to ‘be’, no secrets. This is a road less traveled, if at all, why don’t we try it, it could be the making of us

P.m’s are the equivalent to whispering in the corner, causing all sorts of paranoia in people, whether justified or not. It can also lead to favoritism, people talking away in private and then reporting back that they have the ear of one whom so many others would like to have – i.e. the ‘Charles’ shenanigans. It causes division. Let’s kick it to the kerb.

There’s nothing to stop people skyping each other etc. Just do it away from Avalon, on your own time.

Even though what you say is true, is it not the same as saying that because children can fall off a bike and hurt themselves we should ban bikes?
Everything can be used and misused, that is part of our journey.
Disabling PMs won't help, it will hinder our individual growth.
If needs be, there is an addon available that will allow people to report a PM to the moderation staff, but even now, you can forward it if there is something objectionable.

[jjl]

"if Richard just "snapped" it might be easier to recognize the validity of your argument here, but you have to admit, it was a little more than that people snap all the time on this forum and don't get banned. Richard went all freddy krueger on that guy. when certain lines are crossed, there is simply no turning back. Bill had no choice on this one.

Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argument on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there. "
I have to say that Lee B was one of the few people that extended a real friendship too me, and lets be honest, a friendship between a young man and a middle aged woman on the other side of the pond, having never met is a little extraordinary. I wish I had given him my email before he was banned. And then after he was banned it was a little sickening to watch people picking over the carcass, calling him names and such. I miss him...

[steve_a]

Hi Everybody,

What an intense couple of days. And for what?

It was made clear to the moderators around a year to eighteen months ago that Private Messages could be breached from the back room. If I remember rightly there was quite a scandal where a member complained that onother member could not have known about certain information unless someone had breached her inbox. But, hey, that's the internet for you and VBuletin which isn't exactly up to Pentagon security standards.

The moderators on the forums here (as I and John were) are volunteers and, in my case, worked an hour a day, perhaps two if I had the time. For a person to dedicate eight hours a day being a volunteer moderator on the forum speaks volumes about where they are in their life. That being said, I'm sure these people served without expecting to be put under the spotlight as some sort of hero, as they shouldn't be. Being a volunteer is not about being recognised as a hero, it's about helping out from time to time, for a cause you are interested in and keeping in the second plain. At least in my opinion it's like that.

It's true that the language behind the scenes is very different to the public view that everybody sees. In May 2009, for example, the owner of the site was glad to "see me gone" when he thought I was a different Steve who had been banned as a moderator, because I tried to defend a post made by Michael St.Clair, who at that time was, for some reason, an arch enemy of this sites' owner. I, of course, still have the e-mail which I sent them in response to the comment. I also know that they are waiting for an excuse to ban me now, but that's another story.

As for the intrication between Lee_B and Celine, I really didn't see anything too over the top, except for the outburst by Richard.

I thought the reference made by Celine about Lee entering in contact with her in private was a little near to the knuckle, but didn't think it crossed the line, it just tried to put Lee in check, but failed when he informed that he told his confident everything which has passed - his confident being myself - actually I would like to start a new thread about the veracity of Charles with most of the information that I have, some of it quite eyebrow raising. I will never question the guy, I will never stand in his way (this was an agreement we had previously made between ourselves some time ago), I will never reveal the text in our private message exchanges (which is why I said MOST information), however I will, once I have the THEORIES and information put in context publish what could be quite a stir. Charles and I agree on so much, but there is one thing in particular that we agree on a lot, that everyone needs to do things for themselves and not because he wants them to, otherwise it would be him doing it, but because they want to. That is so, so important to bear in mind.

So there you have it. My input for this flash in the pan. It isn't the first time, it won't be the last. Whenever you get a couple of hundred sensitive people together, from different cultural backgrounds, you're bound to get a couple of confrontations. Some thought Lee to be pompous as they did me. It's not that we're pompous or arrogant, we're just different from you who think we are (imagine if we told you we thought you were just a 'commoner' - eeks!).

Let's get past this hurdle and move on. There's so much more than dwelling on this incident to do.

Best regards,

Steve

[chelmostef]

I will like to add the have been some threads posted were clearly the intention is to bring Avalon together. One from your self Bill was a good example of this.

I would also like to add that there have been very timely threads of quite the opposite nature.... Running in conjunction with whats being played out behind the scenes.

My alarm has been gently ringing for a few weeks now.

[Icecold]

LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

Edit: to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches.

What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, Edit

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

[Hawkwind]

Crap! I have to get this off my chest.
1-Celine, I love you. You seem to have a talent for getting yourself hit by large moving objects. Might it not be better to stop playing in the freeway?
2-Richard, I love you. I understand that you felt completely out of options, but airing your concerns calmly in public probably would have sufficed. Throwing F-bombs and deleting accounts just isn't an acceptable solution and you bloody well know that. You've proven yourself quite capable of expressing your heart, please do so now.
3-Bill, I love you and have the utmost respect for you. The solution you have proposed feels to me like a double amputation. Please, please, please let us try to find a less radical way through this. It is indeed your decision, Dr. House- but might not consultation with the other members of your team lead us to a different diagnosis and less invasive treatment? Isn't that what we're here for?