The Art Of Forum Posting / Avoiding Arguments

[Strat]

From what I've seen, forum posting often bring out the worst in people. This has been causing ripples in Avalon. In face to face contact, most people hold back a lot of negativity. Think about it. I can almost garuntee there is some point in your life where you look back on a social exchange and you think to yourself, “I should've told so-and-so off!” People don't do this because it's socially uncomfortable, they don't want the confrontation. It's often hard to look someone in the eyes and tell them your negative opinions about them, or how you disagree with what they passionatly believe. Generally speaking, the majority of people will pretend to agree with someone they disagree, waiting to vent their true feelings to someone that truly agrees with whatever opinion they have.

Take this hypothetical, political conversation: Person X is a huge Obama fan. Person Y and Z are not. Person X and Y meet each other in a pub, and strike up a political conversation. It eventually leads into Obama. X goes on and on about how they love Obama. Y just stares into their drink, agrees with what they say, and tries to change the conversation. Later that night, Y meets up with Z and rants about X's absurd viewpoints.

Now, you the reader may be a socially tactuful person, able to disagree in uncomfortable discussions without exciting an argument. A fact of life is, most aren't able to do this with strangers. In the forum world, our hypothetical person, Y, may be more forward with their opinions. Often in this case, passive aggressiveness is used. I'd say 75% of the time, this will yield a aggressive response from X. From there, this goes on and on. If this were to be a court case, and I would have to bring evidence from previous posts, I would have a plethora of evidence.

The key to having a peaceful time on a forum is to transcend negativity. Most wont directly insult you, they will post something passive aggressive. The key to transcending this is quite simple; don't quote the comment, don't address the comment, just ignore it. You can even use this to better yourself. If it ticks you off, clear it when you meditate (I think 95% of the population should meditate). This will improve your meditation practice, as well as better yourself as a person. If you do this practice, it will be hard for people to bother you.

I also consider it risky posting sarcasm. I don't often post jokes unless it's completely obvious and garunteed to bring a laugh.

Some may think I am stepping out of bounds, suggesting people how to act on this forum. I am one of the younger people on Avalon, who am I tell my elders how to act? Well, there have been several occasions where people twice my age have used these passive aggressive tactics towards me. My credentials for making this post are my previous posts. They are free to view by anyone, you'll be hard pressed to find me engaging in arguments.

There are a lot of great people here on Avalon, we need to set an example. I am not aware of a forum that contains similar, high quality content that you'll find here. There is often talk of raising our collective vibrations. This is a great way to put this ideaology into practice. What good is it to research such things and not practice them?

Recap/quick tips:

-Ignore negativity. If it bothers you, you must find a way to clear this in your mind. Meditative practice seems to work for the vast majority. However, meditation is a skill, it takes practice.

-Try to avoid sarcastic posts. If you want to post a joke, try to make sure it's completely obvious.

-Obviously, don't post negative comments yourself. If any of the 'higher vibration' theories are valid, then these negative comments single handedly bring down our collective vibrations.

-It's ok to disagree with the majority. Think out your post as carefully as you can. State your viewpoints clearly, and why you've come to your conclusion.

[Sowelu]

THANKYOU lol...i don't know how many times i avoided posting what my self-righteous self thought needed to be said
I've gotten the same kind of treatment and i have to agree wisdom has nothing to do with age, I think this is why so many don't put their age in profile, sometimes
it feels like we younger folk are underestimated for it

[58andfixed]

Nice one Strat:

More evidence that few know how to collaborate, that their emotions are of their own making, and often 'trigger' off of with a reaction instead of responding to an event or post.

Many a book has been written on similar issues.

- 58

[crosby]

thank you Strat. words of wisdom. i have had to hold my tongue on several occasions while posting. it has taught me a few good lessons. sometimes sitting back and thinking about the words you type can be a great thing. otherwise, i would have been capped my very first day here. i'm glad that i recognized what i do have too say is more important than responding out of haste.
thanks again. warmest regards, corson

[Shezbeth]

Constructive criticism, IMO should be encouraged. Per your Obama example -

Is person X giving a well thought out series of qualities? If yes, is it inappropriate for Y to provide counterpoint? If no, is it inappropriate for Y to indicate unqualified reasoning?

I agree with much of what you suggest, but suggest further detail might be more constructive. Certainly, disagreements needn't degrade to the point of argument, but if Y has a dissenting opinion they do themselves a disservice by not voicing it. Going to party Z and elucidating the ways in which X is wrong disallows X the opportunity to respond to criticisms. Further, Y and Z have the satisfaction of 'feeling right and justified', while avoiding the responsibility of having their own views criticized in (potentially) a rational and valid manner. A person who has coherently reached a conclusion should have no objection to another's contrary opinion so long as that opinion is respectful. The objecting opinion also should not hesitate to voice its self if it is coherently reached and respectful in approach.

Except when dealing with an unreasonable party (I leave it to the reader to visualize that), reasonable discussion and disagreement lead to a better understanding for both parties even when there is no resulting consensus. I understand Y's reticence to engage in a discussion of the matter but I find bringing the discussion up with an uninvolved party is inappropriate - particularly to denigrate another's opinion without their knowledge.

Bottom Line - Ego is to be avoided
(shameless plug for Greybeard) - https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...o-transcend-it

[Icecold]

Great post Strat. Very helpful to the masses.

Some no nos..... Etiquette......

Posting in the wrong forum

Vague Subject Lines

Incomplete Problem Descriptions

Hijacking threads

Not searching for answers before posting questions

Demanding an immediate response

Using text-message abbreviations



Sometimes these breaches of etiquette can result in disagreements.



I'm avoiding the topic of flaming.... I think it will be covered by others.

[delaware]

Hi Strat, thank you for your wise words coming from your heart. I fully agree with you, couldn´t have put it better. I often admire you young people for your innate wisdom and your peacefulness while being clear and outspoken. A beautiful young generation.

[torzbc]

Thank-you for your wise words.... the last forum I was on had an ignore button ~( very handy for not getting sidetracked ) and you can just block and delete someone on facebook that you do not want to have any contact with...

These old bones will take your advice and I may stick around a bit longer... you have given me hope and something to think about and a reminder.

[Strat]

Posted by Shezbeth (here)
Constructive criticism, IMO should be encouraged. Per your Obama example -

Is person X giving a well thought out series of qualities? If yes, is it inappropriate for Y to provide counterpoint? If no, is it inappropriate for Y to indicate unqualified reasoning?

I agree with much of what you suggest, but suggest further detail might be more constructive. Certainly, disagreements needn't degrade to the point of argument, but if Y has a dissenting opinion they do themselves a disservice by not voicing it. Going to party Z and elucidating the ways in which X is wrong disallows X the opportunity to respond to criticisms. Further, Y and Z have the satisfaction of 'feeling right and justified', while avoiding the responsibility of having their own views criticized in (potentially) a rational and valid manner. A person who has coherently reached a conclusion should have no objection to another's contrary opinion so long as that opinion is respectful. The objecting opinion also should not hesitate to voice its self if it is coherently reached and respectful in approach.

Except when dealing with an unreasonable party (I leave it to the reader to visualize that), reasonable discussion and disagreement lead to a better understanding for both parties even when there is no resulting consensus. I understand Y's reticence to engage in a discussion of the matter but I find bringing the discussion up with an uninvolved party is inappropriate - particularly to denegrate another;s opinion without their knowledge.

Bottom Line - Ego is to be avoided
(shameless plug for Greybeard) - https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...o-transcend-it

My idea was to give an example of two people that have a hard time discussing touchy subjects (politics/religion). This is a common human phenomenon, it takes time and an effort for some people to have the skill to disagree in a polite way. If person Y were on this forum, they are at a higher percentage of a chance to disagree, and with a negative connotation. Maybe I should edit the original post to make this more clear? My bad about that, it was late at the time and I had a long day.

[Sidney]

Being an indigo, (stand-in,walk-in-, whatever you prefer to call us) I prefer to avoid confrontation like the plague. However, the older I get, the more I feel the need to stand up for what I feel is right. Therefore, when it comes to communicating a difference of opinion, i suck at it. For me,to try to get my point across diplomatically AND accurately, it really is a tightrope balancing act. If I see a fight coming on, I try really hard to avoid it. The last couple months I have had to practice some serious self control, because the issues have been so heated. avalonians, by nature i think are passionate about everything we believe in, and throw in some deceit,mysterious ploys, some strong personalities and a few very complicated scenarios that require solving, the drama that occurred was truly inevitable. I made a basic observation, spoke my thought on it, and BANG. someone was right behind me ready to pick a fight. Geesh I impulsively got fed up right then and there and unsubscribed.

Well, it was a little drastic and it didn't last long (10 days), but I didn't even lurk during that time. It was the best thing I could have done.( although next time, I will just walk away for a while without unsubscribing lol). the point is, if I had not done that, I think I would have lost my composure, and gotten tangled up in the tangled web that I came back to (day before yesterday). I was so saddened to see what all had occurred in the last 10 days. Shocked really, but glad that I had the wisdom to duck out at the right time.

My advice, I know it sounds cowardly, but, if the air starts getting "thick",,,,step back, breathe, and turn your computer off...take a nap,a walk, play a game with your kids. Anything constructive and worthwhile. Come back in a few days. Avalon will still be here, and you probably avoided some stress.

BTW Strat- perfect timing for this thread. thank you, I am sure it will help many

[Tao O]

Hi PA Family, I feel prompted to say that I wish there was more of a paradigm of debate/discussion like this thread, as a cause of celebration on PA,' esp. in re: to the Charles Material', instead of polarization. A place we can share our wisdom and process our feelings in a safe place is valuable, for me.

I wish to reference the Hebrews, both culturally and scholastically,they over centuries grow and are nourished by debate of every kind and to every depth. It is the life blood of their community and way of being. In this brilliant collective which allows and encourages every particle of every issue to be opened completely to debate, with love and respect, learning and sharing.... and does not get caught up in value judgments of good/bad.. right/wrong, as separative and divisive. It thus includes growth for all.

The whole Universe is run on BOTH poles ....both positive and negative (positive not being right & neg. not being wrong or bad))...as complementary and necessary for ALL life to move through time/space..(from subatomic particles to us humans, white & dark matter, birth of stars and black holes).

Let us see and adopt this example/model of Jewish Spiritual Enlightenment (not what they believe, but the spirit in which they walk the same path as Seekers of Truth together) as a wholistic, healthy and welcoming way of being instead of the endless negation and lack of respect.

What is there to be afraid of? Both sides create BALANCE and these outcomes will produce greater wholeness in ourselves and the issues/challenges we face together. Otherwise we leave out half the beings and their consciousness and evolution and wind up facing each other in 'stand offs', instead of facing the future and unknown together as a team, a whole.

We can instead be Celebrating all the Magic that Existence can bring.
Can we GROW UP and not feel threatened by another's viewpoint/experience? Can we, not have to BE RIGHT!

I think we have to be better than the old paradigm, where we get beyond ' Us and Them', ( which begets all wars), by our understanding and attitudes of who and what we are.....together. I really hope this happens... Stay awake out there, Quantum-ly w/love

[Dorok]

E-Prime can be a helpful tool to limit confusion/misinterpretation when creating posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime - That's not a flattering article, but you can search for other discussions.

E-Prime is literally about writing or speaking without using the 'identity' version of the verb 'to be'. This leads to more 'operational' statements that tend to be more accurate and less inflammatory. For example, "Beethoven is the greatest composer of all time." versus "My taste in music prefers Beethoven more than any other composer". OR, "X is a liar." versus "It seems to me that X lies when speaking about this subject."

Give it a try! Or at least, notice when the 'identity is' is being used and the reactions it causes...

[Flash]

One personal rule

I build up with time, whenever i meet people, either on a forum or face to face, or on the phone, I try to find one thing I like about them. This is a rule and has become quite automatic. Only one thing, mostly if there is bad vipes between us. It usually changes my attitude for communicating.

Sub rules:

Once I found something I like, I try empathy - be in their shoes for a while.
Then I try fo find something I love (not always successful for this)

Exception to the rule, added up later with life experience:

only one: when after detailed scrutiny, using real good tools, I determine that someone is sociopathic, including psychopaths and narcissistics. (I do study the situation for a while before labelling, with screening tools, I do not rely on my own feelings only). Then I know there is no possible way to have true relationship or even true communication not involving lies and manipulation, and I turn away, I will even block them from reaching me or those I love.

After that i use all the regular communication rules taught - taught....... - well, usually not taught at school, but sometimes at work or with lots of good books or in customer service for example.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Dorok (here)
E-Prime can be a helpful tool to limit confusion/misinterpretation when creating posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime - That's not a flattering article, but you can search for other discussions.

E-Prime is literally about writing or speaking without using the 'identity' version of the verb 'to be'. This leads to more 'operational' statements that tend to be more accurate and less inflammatory. For example, "Beethoven is the greatest composer of all time." versus "My taste in music prefers Beethoven more than any other composer". OR, "X is a liar." versus "It seems to me that X lies when speaking about this subject."

Give it a try! Or at least, notice when the 'identity is' is being used and the reactions it causes...

love it being immediately added to my tool box

[58andfixed]

Posted by Flash (here)
One personal rule

I build up with time, whenever i meet people, either on a forum or face to face, or on the phone, I try to find one thing I like about them.

love it being immediately added to my tool box[/QUOTE]


Nice Flash:

The simpler the idea, the easier it is to implement.

I like an approach of understanding, as a broad stroke of generalization.

Often times, a clear statement of my perspective as succinct as possible has helped me.

Just as a by-product of being busy, I don't have spare time to get into a lot of tit-for-tat banter.

- 58

[wolf_rt]

Very interesting subject. Tact is useful in ALL situations, not just forum posting. I'm not sure that people are less tactful on forums, they are just more likely to express there thoughts, with the same level of tactlessness that they display in everyday life. Tactless people are more likely to keep there opinions to themselves face to face though, as the negative consequences are more immediate, and disruptive to there lives.

I believe i have the ability to tactfully present my opinion to the majority of people without them becoming defensive, which i believe is the main stumbling block to communication. This ability fails me when dealing with things that are personal to me though..something i must work on..

I also have the bad habit of playing devils advocate when discussing ideas, i feel i do this to draw people out, others feel I'm being argumentative and not listening to there ideas. more work required.

I have found that often when i present an idea to a non receptive person, without making them defensive, they don't agree with me at that moment, but weeks or months later, they will present the same idea back to me, and if questioned, they will state that they have considered what i said and now agree.

If you cant state your opinion in a fashion that avoids defensiveness on the part of the recipient, you might as well not say it. A person who has become defensive WILL NOT accept anything you say... No matter how self evident.

I find the best method of bring down defensive barriers, is to be self depreciating.

It would be interesting if we could have a 'tact workshop' of some description???

[bluestflame]

method of presentation of information has a direct effect on its reception

[SEAM]

I belong to another forum environment that I find myself totally at odds with at times. More often than not, I am ignored, criticized, unappreciated. My thoughts and words are minimalized, deconstructed, and attacked on an ongoing basis. Sometimes, everything I put forth is misconstrued, and vehemently opposed. But I stay on-line, and keep on offering my best, and I would absolutely never consider espousing any point of view that would warrant a ban. The forum I'm talking about? .... Marriage...... (taught me alot about everything you guys are saying) Cheers!

[Tao O]

I wish to add from my posting above, where I spoke of a 'model' collective whose opinions can be very diverse, strong and intense. And of course, anger is a natural part of all that communication. I did not mean the SUBJECT MATTER ( their beliefs) at all.

But rather the 'Spirit' in which all of their expressions are allowed to 'BE' and thus they process with each other, even though it may get very heated. I used the Jewish example, because many Mediterranean peoples also express in great volume, but from my own experience, when they polarize they usually wind up angry and not speaking to each other for decades, even, forgetting what the riff was about initially.

So that a group can achieve a level of acceptance of each other and embrace each other and grow as a 'whole'..and acknowledging it to be a root characteristic of their Spiritual/intellectual growth is worthy of note.

I feel we can achieve even more evolved ways of being, by using respectful and appropriate language in that tenor of 'acceptance' And thus it will evolve as a basis of our interaction on every level.

A forum is more than just posting 'your' opinion and reading others'. For me,there is response-ability that rises up quickly...one that includes dynamics of the whole spectrum of who people are and where they are and what the purpose and the potential we create together is. We want to see everyone flower, not just the ones that agree with us.

Maybe that is why in the 'world' paradigm of getting along and being heard at the same time requires diplomacy and Public Relations, essential in any dialogue with different agendas, and ways of being, etc. I think we respect Bill for his mastery in this area. And PA could never get off the ground if Bill was only about his ego expressing all the time.

An example that triggers polarization for me is: when a person, like a fundamentalist, says that I SHOULD love Jesus... and that I am Satan and going to Hell for having a Guru. I respond, that I love the fact they love Jesus, but I need for them to respect me as a person and not insist I love Jesus too. That they respect my Being and my beliefs though they may be VERY different from theirs. And I think Jesus said to love everyone..not just Christians. And then I hope they hear my heart and mind and see the boundary they crossed.

When our beliefs incite hatred and separateness, judgment and superiority, at the expense of putting others down...the boundary of respect has been crossed. We can find a way to say what we feel, know etc. without imposing those thoughts and feelings on others. AND...learning to help those that do cross a 'boundary of respect' in respectful ways. I see so many Avalonians that really try to keep 'respect' towards others on board..and I feel so good inside from that!

I trust, we can represent our beliefs & ideas mentally and emotionally regardless of the volume/intensity if we keep RESPECT a 'must' boundary. IMHO I would love for us to embrace a bigger Reality, that includes, all that we are aware of, WITH LOVE AND RESPECT. 'Apologies' are a part of the boundary keeping...cause we are not perfect. Maybe just saying, "what you said makes me feel angry, or sad, or whatever"..without calling others names of a degrading kind.

I look forward to my learning all of this myself..as I am a new member and see the opportunities that will present themselves. I am sure I am 'preaching to the choir' for most of you. Thanks for your patience...hugs to all. (I posted this on 'tension' also).