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Thread: Do we really exist

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    Default Do we really exist

    Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

    An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

    everyone can accept this.

    Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms, an yet we

    die
    need nutrition
    have intelligence

    How does this work out

    Have you ever thought there might be more to us than what we see. I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul

    There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Quote Posted by The One (here)
    Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

    An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

    everyone can accept this.
    No, we can not all accept this. I don't think I agree but I have a problem explaining it too. I am actually in the process of trying to research this subject further so it is funny that you choose NOW to make this post ... not ha ha funny but you know. I can't explain it yet so it frustrates me instead. Others may be on to or further along similar research and can do better than I?

    I'll keep researching and follow the thread. I'll probably get hell for this statement, though LOL

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    all of you definately exist to me. Am I in your actual universe? I have no idea...

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Quote Posted by jjl (here)
    all of you definately exist to me. Am I in your actual universe? I have no idea...
    I see you!!! Jake....

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Quote Posted by The One (here)
    Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

    An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

    everyone can accept this


    matter of opinion....

    in love
    mike

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Yes, awesome find, Mike. I was just looking for that video to post. It gets right to the crux of the question. The wave function is offset by conscious observation, which in turn, creates the particle. Meaning, CONSCIOUSNESS creates physical reality, at all levels. Quantom/molecular/etc... Awesome topic.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    There are some minor points that I dont agree on:

    Im not made up of atoms
    Im not gonna die
    I dont need nutrition
    I dont have intelligense
    And Im not at all convinced that I exist
    But joy might exist maybye

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Mike1414 THANK YOU!!! It was something like that but there is more ... which I can still not explain. It also reminds me of the age old question ... if a tree falls in the woods but there are no one around will it make a noice? From your video the question could be deemed irrelevant as the tree then might not fall at all.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    ...........No I'm just a figment of my imagination

    ..Nick..

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    If it's true that science (I think the ref. is Bohm) has proven that you can take two subatomic particles spinning together, separate them physically even to great distance, then change the spin of one and instantly the spin of the other changes to match...what is that?

    Are the subatomic particles alive? What force of knowing would cause them to recognize that spin from all of the other subatomic particles out there?

    Is that a proof of their existence?

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Quote Posted by The One (here)
    Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

    An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

    everyone can accept this.
    Not sure we all can accept this, but I like where your thinking is going.

    Try this idea on for size.

    These tiny singularities (focal points of consciousness) we refer to as atoms are no different than the stars, solar systems and galaxies that make up the body of our universe. They're all just fractals (differently sized sentient points of consciousness).

    I am a physical representation of the universe made up of stars, solar systems and galaxies and you live within me as I live within each of you.

    Thanks for the experience.

    Crake
    God sleeps in the rock,
    dreams in the plant,
    stirs in the animal...
    and awakens in man.

    - Ibn al 'Arabi

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Define: Exist


    Common usage

    In common usage, existence is the world we are aware of through our senses, and that persists independently without them. In academic philosophy the word has a more specialized meaning, being contrasted with essence, which specifies different forms of existence as well as different identity conditions for objects and properties.


    Philosophers

    Philosophers investigate questions such as "What exists?", "How do we know?", "To what extent are the senses a reliable guide to existence?", and "What is the meaning, if any, of assertions of the existence of categories, ideas, and abstractions?"


    Ontology

    Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, existence or reality in general, as well as of the basic categories of being and their relations. Traditionally listed as a part of the major branch of philosophy known as metaphysics, ontology deals with questions concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences. A lively debate continues about the existence of God.


    Epistemology

    Epistemology studies criteria of truth, defining "primary truths" inherently accepted in the investigation of knowledge. The first is existence. It is inherent in every analysis. Its self-evident, a priori nature cannot be consistently doubted, since a person objecting to existence according to some standard of proof must implicitly accept the standard's existence as a premise.


    Materialism

    Materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter, that all things are composed of material, and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions.

    Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have self-sustaining biological processes that exist from those that do not — either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as "inanimate".


    Etymology

    The word "existence" comes from the Latin word existere meaning "to appear", "to arise", "to become", or "to be", but literally, it means "to stand out" (ex- being the Latin prefix for "out" added to the Latin verb stare, meaning "to stand").


    Semantics

    In mathematical logic, there are two quantifiers, "some" and "all", though as Brentano (1838–1917) pointed out, we can make do with just one quantifier and negation. The first of these quantifiers, "some". is also expressed as "there exists". Thus, in the sentence "There exists a man", the term "man" is asserted to be part of existence.

    But we can also assert, "There exists a triangle." Is a "triangle" — an abstract idea —part of existence in the same way that a "man" — a physical body — is part of existence? Do abstractions such as goodness, blindness, and virtue exist in the same sense that chairs, tables, and houses exist? What categories, or kinds of thing, can be the subject or the predicate of a proposition?

    Worse, does "existence" exist?

    In some statements, existence is implied without being mentioned. The statement "A bridge crosses the Thames at Hammersmith" cannot just be about a bridge, the Thames, and Hammersmith. It must be about "existence" as well. On the other hand, the statement "A bridge crosses the Styx at Limbo" has the same form, but while in the first case we understand a real bridge in the real world made of stone or brick, what "existence" would mean in the second case is less clear.


    Conclusion:

    Do I exist just because there "exists" a word in our language - Exist - that we agreed upon?
    In so, if the word "Exist" exists there must be a common sense of "exist" in my/our body/mind/spirit complex otherwise the word "Exist" and the common sense of it have no meaning and therefore does not exist.

    Pof... InCiDeR cease to exist in a logical quantum cloud loop that might or might not exist



    Sidenote:

    "Do we really exist". The sentence in itself is kind of an oxymoron. We can't answer both questions at the same time. Either we answer "really" or we answer "exist". The word "really" in the sentence makes the question much harder to understand than the answer.
    Last edited by InCiDeR; 15th March 2011 at 16:27. Reason: Grammar
    I don't necessarily believe what I think,
    neither do I always think what I believe

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    i think you answered your own question with your first post, we are not this body

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Ok, I'll play. I guess it depends on your definition of what 'exist' means. There are theories/models/concepts that suggest that there is only a singularity, the Creator--pure consciousness--and we are merely sparks of the Creator created so the Creator can experience its creation in an infinite number of ways. The universe (multiverse) is nothing more than a holographic projection that manifests via our observation/experience. Matter is a collapsed wave that manifests as one aspect of an infinite number of possibilities by our observation (i.e., matter is an illusion, there is only the energy of pure consciousness). So do we really exist? I think so, but not in the way most of us believe. We truly are one.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Measurement Problem - Reality is an Illusion

    Found this great video to share... Enjoy everyone... see if we really exist!

    Unity Consciousness
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free your mind, and open your heart to LOVE.
    You'll then become enlightened able to just BE.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    I would have to disagree on the first premise about the atom. All mass/ physical reality,form has a neutral center that is its zero point and it is conscious/ so to take it as not plays into this endless debate about existence...Everything is a form of consciousness!

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Quote The One: I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul
    Thank you, The One, for this question. And by asking that, you exist, I believe it's a question on 2 levels: matter and spirit, because we are both.... and that is a matter of opinion of course
    But that is my right and communication tool, to have an opinion, not stated as a matter of fact:
    it's easy to become emprisoned in a loop here, somewhat like the question of Shakespeare
    "To be, or not to be..."

    In my opinion, my ego and physical body are saying "I exist" as a matter of fact, simply for survival. I need to eat, touch and be touched and deal with matter, in 3D vibration and as soon as I wake up in the morning, my body is assured that it exists, looking at the material world... and it's the coffee rush that does that sometimes to my consciousness

    My spirit and "I am that I am" presence exists in a flow, a dynamic process, because movement is the essence of spirit and rigidity the essence of matter, relatively spoken... because all matter is vibration when looked into deep enough. It's such an issue of hologram and fractals,
    even stepping out of the box", that it's comfortable for me, to live with the question only and let go of an answer as a desire.

    When I proclaim to exist, I exist, I make it so and so it is. In a way that ALL THIS doesn't matter... pun intended. My spirit is eternal and doesn't need to be confirmed in it's existence. My spirit has a choice to attach itself to matter: an incarnation in a physical body.
    That is proof of my existence on this planet Earth, but the part of me that makes a difference is not my physical presence, it's my light and love. My physical presence is an expression of that light and love and so are yours we are the Creators.

    Quote The One: There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.
    I feel it's the state of being in the Void, where all creation stems from, The One, before the divine spark stroke a match

    Do we exist here, in this Forum? Only virtually it has no living proof. It's the experience of being alive among others, nurtured and cared for, that makes children grow and aware of their existence and to a certain degree, different in importance for each of us, that goes for all of us. Suppose you live in a desert on your own, imagine your state of mind and being, having done that for 10 years or so? How does that feel? Maybe I would be in a deep relationship with a scorpion or a desert rat, for need of company to have proof that I exist. Or with Spirit/God who exists in that same scorpion or rat... and me. Be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.
    Last edited by Victoria Tintagel; 19th March 2011 at 21:45.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    Quote Posted by The One (here)
    Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

    An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

    everyone can accept this.
    i dont accept this, not in the slightest. My personal view is that atoms are very much alive; they just don't "seem" as alive as plants and animals are. they are all a part of God-Source, thus have intellegence and even evolve (think how Stars create complex matter out simpler elements, and how we create even more complex compounds from those), just not the way we do. In my view, atoms are like parts of God, mini-souls if you like, that have sacrificed themselves totally that we can experience "atoms" in this reality. Atoms are essentially "fed" Light from God in order to sustain themselves and vibrate, rotate, condense and interact with this Light based on specific patterns (which mainstream science doesn't understand) in fluid-like manner (think sonoluminescence, but on a hyper-dimensional and holographic level).

    Quote Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms, an yet we

    die
    need nutrition
    have intelligence

    How does this work out
    its not "us", per se, that are made of atoms. our bodies are.
    Quote Have you ever thought there might be more to us than what we see. I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul
    You're very right there . the soul is ultimately "who we are"; this life is but one expression of a tiny piece of that. I myself see the body as vehicle, like you say, but nonetheless something which is precious and should be respected, like all manifestation of the God-Source. Many people, in my view, go wrong when they say they're no longer "materialistic" and then begin to totally reject the wonders of simply interacting with one's environment. traditional buddhism imo is heavily guilty of this. whats the point then of incarnating if, realising there's more than physicality, you dont appreciate the creation of the spirit itself?

    Quote There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.
    that, or you'll realize first that nothing is ever finished

    peace and love

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    i think it was rene descartes who wondered exactly the same thing.

    how could one prove that one actually exists?
    how do you know that you're not the product of someone elses dream?

    what is there about a person, that is unique to them?
    what is it, within your own experience, that you know for sure actually does exist,
    that cannot come from another person?

    'I think therefore I am'

    your thoughts, even though they can be influenced, are your own.
    no one does your thinking for you.

    so the 'point of awareness' is unique to you,
    and the conscious act (activity) of thought, is a manipulation of existance,

    if you didnt exist, that would not be possible
    therefore, you do exist.

    steve
    when i went there nothing happened!, i was bored out of my mind..................in the Twilight Zone.

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    Default Re: Do we really exist

    There is a story of a Buddhist monk named Bodhidharma, he was eating in a restaurant when an abbot of a nearby monastery was explaining to his two student about reality and how he understood that existence is something comparable to an illusion. Bodhidharma proceeded to slap that abbot causing him to be angry. The abbot shouted why did you hit me?. Bodhidharma answered, if life is like an illusion then there was no need for you to be angry and shout. if it was like an illusion who felt the pain then?. The abbot bowed to Bodhidharma and invited him to stay at his monastery. Later in a sermon Bodhidharma gave a lesson about the illusory nature of existence.

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