United People Declaration poll

[buckminster fuller]

it's not a genocide we're after... What a foolish thing to think..

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mQuBmdjFtBc

peace

edit........: to clear up things, those lyrics are obviously addressed to people suffering from a sociopathic condition....

[buckminster fuller]

Posted by OmeyocaN777 (here)
Hi Chicodoodoo
Give a look at this man, i think you gonna find interesting his way of view about Unity.

What Carlos Barrios and the Mayan Elders are Saying About 2012

http://stevebeckow.com/2011/03/carlo...n-elders-2012/

This guy wrote his own declaration ... : http://stevebeckow.com/worldwide-mar...al-revolution/

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Icecold (here)
But, to not mention the solution is worrying. The only obvious solution is genocide or mass incarceration. Possibly brain-washing? Fun times ahead for humanity. The view is highly acceptable to christians and possibly muslims. It respects the sanctity of an idea of evil.

I see you have added more to your post since my last reply. So it now appears your point is back on the witch-hunt concern.

What you call the only obvious solution is not the only solution. Other solutions were discussed in the thread "Are sociopaths human?" A reasonable solution was to identify sociopaths early and redirect their skills from positions of power / leadership into other areas where they can contribute to the common good instead of destroying it. Sociopaths can be looked at just like every other individual, as a potential contributor to the common good.

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)
This guy wrote his own declaration ... : http://stevebeckow.com/worldwide-mar...al-revolution/

Great stuff! We, as a people, are beginning to be focused in the right direction. It is declarations like this that tell me we are being funneled onto the right path. The intent is condensing into something solid, just like water vapor becomes rain. Action will follow, just like rain becomes rivers that naturally carve out their own path.

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by modwiz (here)
One more link. If you click this one we might never see you again. lol

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/es...#sociopolitica

You're not kidding! The amount of information there is astounding. I checked a few of the links that I'm already familiar with, and the quality of the information is very good as well. I'm very tempted to go back to school and simply disappear into the bowels of this web page!

[Bollinger]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Bollinger (here)
While it is certainly true that we cannot change the world....

This pretty much summarizes your position, Bollinger. It is absurd that you could think your statement is true, and with certainty no less. Who do you think has been changing the world for the past 100 years? Even if you refuse to accept that a small group of organized sociopaths has been orchestrating all the major changes we have seen in the last century, surely you aren't claiming the changes all happened by themselves, or that there has been no change. A great deal of evidence suggests that the sociopathic elite, a very small minority of humanity, are responsible for directing the changes in the world. Imagine the changes a large majority of humanity could accomplish if it was leading instead of following.

Rather than ridiculing the notion that sociopaths are directing humanity, you need to do some research. You clearly are arguing from a position of ignorance. There is information out there. "Political Ponerology" by Andrew M. Lobaczewski is a good place to start. It will help you understand why the ruling sociopaths have actively suppressed this particular branch of science, since it runs counter to their survival. Then when you can speak intelligently about sociopaths, come back and set us all straight.

Chico, I have tried everything from common sense to arguing from first principles to providing examples showing you that what you are proposing has already been done, is being done and will continue to be done. I have carefully and painstakingly (as much as one can through this medium of communication) made reference to how difficult it is in practice to be fair to just one person all the time never mind to the majority or even everyone. I tried to steer away from generalities and grand statements specifically because the devil is always in the detail not the grand illusion you depict in your declaration which has no precedence in history or basis in reality.

And yet, despite all my efforts, you continue droning on about this obsessive fixation with the small group of “organised sociopaths” that you believe are busy toiling away in their relentless evil ways to see that we do not prosper. So, I wouldn’t use the word absurd against other people if I were you!

It is not necessary to do research to see that 2 + 2 does not make 5, which is what you’re essentially proposing. Anyway, I’m sure you’ll find something to come back with - just for the sake of it - and no doubt it will have your favourite word “sociopath” in it.

[Revere]

Icecold

I didn't bring the book up, you did...in this thread BTW.

The roots of this idea.....
http://catholicusanglicanus.wordpres...ag/ponerology/

Ponerology is defined as ...The Science of Evil.

http://ponerology.blogspot.com/

A supporter of the idea...

http://solari.com/blog/?p=96

Catherine Austin Fitts is the president of Solari, Inc., the publisher of The Solari Report, managing member of Solari Investment Advisory Services, LLC., and a supporter of the 9/11 Truth movement

But she was also....

Fitts served as managing director and member of the board of directors of the Wall Street investment bank Dillon, Read & Co. Inc., as Assistant Secretary of Housing and Federal Housing[3] Commissioner at the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development in the first Bush Administration, and was the president of Hamilton Securities Group, Inc., an investment bank and financial software developer. She is now the president of Solari, Inc., and managing member of Solari Investment Advisory Services, LLC.

Funny that she is one of Bush's appointees, a Wall St. Banker and yet she supports the idea of Ponerology. She would be a likely candidate for elite status? Strange.

It looks like she has become a whistleblower...but remains a banker of sorts. Smart woman.

Alex Jones is interviews Catherine Fitts... lots of commercials


1. There is no opposing view to the obvious relationship between psychopathy and leadership in the world today. It seems to be a consensus view. I would not challenge the fact that those who seek positions of power in any form are wrong-headed. Its unanimous.

But, to not mention the solution is worrying. The only obvious solution is genocide or mass incarceration. Possibly brain-washing? Fun times ahead for humanity. The view is highly acceptable to christians and possibly muslims. It respects the sanctity of an idea of evil.

Icecold,
Umm… the YouTube links above are not Fitts…they are Ray McGovern. Could you state more clearly what you dis-like about Fitts? Are you afraid that she is a fraud do to her past associations? Also, in reviewing the other links I did not read any call for killing off all suspected Psychopaths. So, I need help understanding your point. Thanks.


Peace,
Revere

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Bollinger (here)
And yet, despite all my efforts, you continue droning on about this obsessive fixation with the small group of “organised sociopaths” that you believe are busy toiling away in their relentless evil ways to see that we do not prosper.

Bollinger, you have to do more than just say, "You're wrong." You have to show why we are wrong in a clear and indisputable way. I don't have any problem with being shown I am wrong. In fact, it's what I live for, to discover the errors of my thinking. Unfortunately, you are not helping me in that quest. Please try harder.

[skippy]

Posted by Bollinger (here)
I have tried everything from common sense to arguing from first principles to providing examples showing you that what you are proposing has already been done, is being done and will continue to be done.

Bollinger, thanks for sharing your thoughts in a sobering way. As always your posts are food for thought and they make a lot of sense. To continue the discussion on this subject, please consider the following interview by ‘Der Spiegel’, a German magazine, with the philosopher Martin Heidegger. For those who have difficulties with the notion ‘God’, please read ‘Supernatural Force’ instead.

DER SPIEGEL: “Can the individual still influence this network of inevitabilities at all, or can philosophy influence it, or can they both influence it together in that philosophy leads one individual or several individuals to a certain action?”
HEIDEGGER: “Philosophy will not be able to bring about a direct change of the present state of the world. This is true not only of philosophy but of all merely human meditations and endeavors. Only a god can still save us. I think the only possibility of salvation left to us is to prepare readiness, through thinking and poetry, for the appearance of the god or for the absence of the god during the decline; so that we do not, simply put, die meaningless deaths, but that when we decline, we decline in the face of the absent god.”

What are your thoughts on the declaration as a mean for human beings to express their position, to show what they stand for, and to protect human dignity? You are saying that this has already been done, is being done and will continue to be done and therefore doesn’t make sense. Well, this declaration at this moment in time, makes perfectly sense to me.

Posted by Bollinger (here)
..despite all my efforts, you continue droning on about this obsessive fixation with the small group of “organised sociopaths” that you believe are busy toiling away in their relentless evil ways to see that we do not prosper.

Does this declaration prevent some, to execute their evil plans? Off course not, but what counts are our intentions as a united people. For example, in another thread here at PA, Chicodoodoo, describes an original way to defend what’s ours. I agree that we should go beyond the “us against them” way of seeing, but we have all our shortcomings. For the sake of the discussion, below an extract:

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)
We build the foundations of a new paradigm, one where people decide their fate. Instead of tearing down the existing system, we build a new one that functions independently but at the same time as the old system. There is no need to challenge the power of the existing system, and it would be life-threatening to do so. At first, the decisions of the people will be simply for show, much as the Declaration is right now. These decisions will have no “legal” authority and have no effect on anything concrete, including the direction and operation of the existing system. But they will clearly show the intent of the people, and as the numbers of united people speaking out with one voice grow, so will their authority, and so will the impact of their decisions. As it becomes more and more visible which system operates in the best interests of the people and which system truly allows all people to participate, the masses will naturally migrate over to the new system. The old system simply shrivels up and becomes obsolete.

Whether this new system will work, I have no idea, probably not. But, as already said, what’s important is to make a statement of us “Being” human. The poll confirms that people here at Avallon are supporting the declaration. If there is some other “Being” around in this universe, the message will be picked-up somewhere. And if not, that we do not die meaningless deaths in the face of an absent god, so to speak in the words of Heidegger. But, let’s take things one step further; there might be more in it than just preparing readiness...

Posted by Revere (here)
A movement is only truly remembered by its actions. Let's let the well intended Declaration rest for now and discuss ideas on taking one actual proactive action . Let us see what that debate looks like!

Indeed, maybe it’s a good moment to start a new thread on the subject, e.g. on the various feedback and contributions here and how-to integrate this valuable input in a new updated version of the declaration. Anyone?

[jeannacav]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)
This poll is to gauge support for the Declaration listed below.

=== United People Declaration ===

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for all of the common people to organize and unite for the common good, they should declare their reasons and intentions.

Not all truths are self-evident, especially when there are those that want the truth hidden or controlled. The truth is that the common good has not been served by existing human organizations. This truth must be revealed and communicated to all, and it must be remedied. That is the purpose of this Declaration.

There are natural rights that belong to all human beings, and these rights are being denied by selfish individuals and organizations. This must not be tolerated, or tyranny and mass suffering will surely follow. Among the natural rights of all human beings are:

Clean air that sustains health
Clean water that sustains health
Clean food that sustains health
Basic equality
Basic liberty
Basic fairness
Basic privacy
Basic care
Basic peace
Equal access to truthful information

Two rules help determine what constitutes “clean” and “basic”, and they are:

1. The Golden Rule – Do not do to others what you would not want done to you.
2. The Physicians Creed – Do no harm.

There is a very long list of existing actions that violate the natural rights of common people and makes the unification and organization of all human beings necessary and proper. Here are some:

The orchestration of numerous wars for gain and profit.
The poisoning of humanity by way of depleted uranium munitions.
The genocide of people for political, ideological, or economic reasons.
The monopolization of communications to control information and minds.
The manufactured illusion of self-government when there is very little.
The manufactured illusion of freedom when there is very little.
The manufactured illusion of privacy when there is very little.
The manufacturing of illusions for control of various populations.
The deliberate manufacture and release of disease agents and organisms.
The deliberate distribution of “medications” designed to maim, kill, or control.
The suppression of important information regarding non-terrestrial life.
The corruption of systems like money, health care, food production, and entertainment for purposes of selfish gain or control.
The genetic re-engineering of destructive life forms for selfish gain or control.
The clandestine manufacture and distribution of illegal drugs for selfish gain or control.
The destructive manipulation of the natural environment that sustains all life.
The deliberate suppression of “free energy” technology that would improve the world.
Etc.

Those behind these violations of natural human rights do so willfully, criminally, and secretly. They represent but a tiny minority of the human population. The vast majority of humans have been fooled, tricked, deceived, dulled, lulled, purchased, coerced, or otherwise distracted from the truth of these violations against them by this tiny minority.

For these reasons, we, the people of this planet that is our only refuge and life-support system, do declare our intent to unite and organize in support of our natural rights and in opposition to any that would deny them.

=== End Declaration ===

Excellent Chicodoodoo

You got me to sign in again.
I will take off again, but I want to thank you with all my heart for this well thought-out declaration.

Yes, I do support this.

Bye for now,

jeanna

[Bollinger]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Bollinger (here)
And yet, despite all my efforts, you continue droning on about this obsessive fixation with the small group of “organised sociopaths” that you believe are busy toiling away in their relentless evil ways to see that we do not prosper.

Bollinger, you have to do more than just say, "You're wrong." You have to show why we are wrong in a clear and indisputable way. I don't have any problem with being shown I am wrong. In fact, it's what I live for, to discover the errors of my thinking. Unfortunately, you are not helping me in that quest. Please try harder.

Chico, I don’t think being right or wrong is the issue. You are right in wanting such a world as painted by the declaration, and you are certainly right in saying there is a lot wrong with the world – and you don’t have to read any book or watch any documentary to see that – but the difference in our views immediately becomes apparent when you outline the causes and therefore the solutions for improving it.

If I’ve understood it correctly you lay the blame squarely on the leaders because you believe them to be sociopaths. What I’ve been saying or at least alluding to in all of my posts in this thread is that humanity itself is not geared up to bring about anything like the things listed in your declaration. What grounds do I have for saying that? You only need to look at any endeavour which requires contribution from more than a handful of people and you can see it straight away. Who is going to be the leader, who is going to do the interesting job and who is going to do the boring one and so on?

Eventually and inevitably you have a situation where people grow resentful of each other and start looking for ways to resist or get away from whatever it is that’s making them unhappy. I see it day in day out at work, on the street, in the supermarket, on the road, in the train, on the bus, on holiday, at the airport and every other place you can think of that needs the collective collaboration of more than one person for it to function.

I just find it laughable that such an intelligent audience as this can allow itself to view the world through such a softly tinted lens and believe in something that is just not possible. I know people don’t like to hear it. I don’t like to hear it but there is no virtue in kidding ourselves that if we can just do this or change that, all will be well.

And Skippy, thanks for attempting some sort of arbitration with your last post but as valiant and noble as the declaration is, Chico and I will just have to agree to disagree on the points I have outlined above and leave it at that.

[Chicodoodoo]

Posted by Bollinger (here)
If I’ve understood it correctly you lay the blame squarely on the leaders because you believe them to be sociopaths.

That is the way the current situation has developed, with sociopaths rising to the top and shaping the world according to their destructive aims. But the solution is not to "throw the bums out", because the same situation will eventually redevelop. This is because of the traditional hierarchical structure of society, and like you have said, because of the underlying characteristics of human beings. So we need a solution that will account for the underlying characteristics of human beings, which is something we cannot change. The traditional hierarchical structure of society, however, is something we can change, and that is what the Declaration is leading us towards. So in a way, I agree with you that under the current conditions, all is lost. But we do have the capacity to change a major part of those conditions, meaning the structure of society, in such a way that it will dampen the worst part of humanity, rather than amplify it. By changing from a hierarchical model to a flat holographic model, we can beneficially change the dynamic of our world without having to change the basic nature of humanity.

Who is going to be the leader, who is going to do the interesting job and who is going to do the boring one and so on?

You are stuck in the current paradigm by thinking we must have leaders and stratification (hierarchy). It's the brainwashing we have all been permeated with. We don't need leaders or hierarchies, if we unite and learn to lead ourselves as an organized group. As far as I know, it's never been done before on a global scale. But I have seen enough evidence to convince me that not only can it be done, it must be done.

[dukes4monny]

Posted by Maria Stade (here)
Leaders are natural.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=tqfvUA2vRAM

I have been reviewing a lot of this very interesting thread, and I would suggest that if you haven't yet watched this video suggested by Maria Stade, please do so. In fact the whole series of video's are available on Youtube and I highly recommend that everyone watches them.

When he says "You have to raise your own leaders" this really resonated with me.
This key role in humanity has been usurped, but our problem has been, we didn't realise it.
We cannot blame ourselves for this, nor our ancestors, because, if a problem is unseen, it cannot be resolved.
But now that WE can see the problem, it is incumbent upon us to solve it.

This system has been constructed around us for many generations, and it will likely take many generations to remove it completely, but every journey starts with the first step.
If we resign ourselves to waiting for 'The End' or for some 'Divine intervention', then we are again inviting repetition of the cycle.......do you see?

We must not expect change to happen overnight, or even in any of our current lifetimes. The change must come from within ourselves, this is indeed 'The first step'.
We live in a world that craves instant gratification and instant results, this is our 'Achilles Heel': Ego.
Once we achieve the realisation that there are no 'instant fixes' we can then free our minds to our task, which is to find OUR leaders of the future so that they will find THEIR leaders of the future and each subsequent generations 'step' will help to rebuild Utopia.

As Bill Hicks famously said "It's just a ride". Each time that we return we will be able to see the 'steps' of our ancestors (us) and then we can get to work on the next step.........

I have to say that I have a grudging respect for TPTB, they have been building 'their' vision of the world around us for generations, and have achieved in getting us to believe that it is also our world.

At this time, our role is is to create a new vision. So, instead of discussing new 'rules and regulations' which simply highlight all the wrongs in our current reality, let's put together a strategy for finding and nurturing OUR future leaders.

[buckminster fuller]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jxl40hhpOMM

in case anyone needs motivation...

peace

[dukes4monny]

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jxl40hhpOMM

in case anyone needs motivation...

peace

Perfect thanks.........

I never tire of hearing this cover version of one of Bob Marley's greatest songs.

Enjoy

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=h8hhmqX4WkQ

[Revere]

Just bumping this forward to see if we can move on to some action ideas and then obviously debate?


Dear Avalonians,

Movements are rarely known by their Declarations. Most organizations rarely move beyond declaring lofty claims and ambitions. As you all see after 12 pages of debate we have mainly stumbled on the Biblical and multi-religious Truth that mankind is fundamentally flawed and must change from within to change without. Very True! So, pray, teach, love and live as you claim. This we all should be doing already.

A movement is only truly remembered by its actions. Let's let the well intended Declaration rest for now and discuss ideas on taking one actual proactive action . Let us see what that debate looks like! It must not be a perfect action but it must be well thought out. Agreeing on an action will tell more about this "potential" movement then 100 declarations.

Is there anyone willing to be first and throw something on the table?

I will after some others go so that I am not accused of setting my own table! Possibly someone else will do the idea for me.

Proactive action...now that would really be something, if we can agree!

Peace,
-R-

P.S. Change to a new Thread if we must

[Bollinger]

Posted by Chicodoodoo (here)

Posted by Bollinger (here)
If I’ve understood it correctly you lay the blame squarely on the leaders because you believe them to be sociopaths.

That is the way the current situation has developed, with sociopaths rising to the top and shaping the world according to their destructive aims. But the solution is not to "throw the bums out", because the same situation will eventually redevelop. This is because of the traditional hierarchical structure of society, and like you have said, because of the underlying characteristics of human beings. So we need a solution that will account for the underlying characteristics of human beings, which is something we cannot change. The traditional hierarchical structure of society, however, is something we can change, and that is what the Declaration is leading us towards. So in a way, I agree with you that under the current conditions, all is lost. But we do have the capacity to change a major part of those conditions, meaning the structure of society, in such a way that it will dampen the worst part of humanity, rather than amplify it. By changing from a hierarchical model to a flat holographic model, we can beneficially change the dynamic of our world without having to change the basic nature of humanity.

Who is going to be the leader, who is going to do the interesting job and who is going to do the boring one and so on?

You are stuck in the current paradigm by thinking we must have leaders and stratification (hierarchy). It's the brainwashing we have all been permeated with. We don't need leaders or hierarchies, if we unite and learn to lead ourselves as an organized group. As far as I know, it's never been done before on a global scale. But I have seen enough evidence to convince me that not only can it be done, it must be done.

Chico, I have highlighted in red some of your weakest statements yet. You have decided to fling your soul into this particular post, deviating from your normal modus operandi, which is sticking to highly desirable ideals that can neither be tested nor refuted because the definition is so broad that everyone will take it in the best possible way. That’s fine, because it’s what politicians do all day long. So finally you have been tempted to throw in a few specifics like “human nature” and admit it’s a fairly important ingredient in the mix.

You say “we need a solution that will account for the underlying characteristics of human beings, which is something we cannot change”. Accounting for something means to explain it but I’m sure you meant it differently. I think you wanted to say that we need a solution that will factor in the human element e.g. the ego, the competitive nature, the insecurity, anger and anything else you can think of that makes it difficult if not impossible to achieve this Shangri-La. Then you say “the traditional hierarchical structure of society, however, is something we can change, and that is what the Declaration is leading us towards.” By that you must be implying that changing the hierarchical structure of society will lead to changing human nature. If that’s not what you meant, it’s a contradiction because if you admit human nature is prohibitive and cannot be changed, nothing you can say or do can improve our situation. So we’ll go with the first assumption. Where then is the evidence that a change in hierarchical structure can or has ever made one jot of difference to human nature?

Different structures have indeed been tried, changed, revamped and a lot of people lost their lives in the process. Revolutions, civil wars, dictatorships and monarchies have come and gone. Did any of it change human nature one iota? Give me one example where this has happened in any significant way for any significant length of time on any significant scale, and I’ll happily concede the point?

Then, in you final paragraph, the sentence highlighted in red is very telling. It shows you haven’t really thought this through and have simply packaged some interesting sounding ideas into a declaration and sent it out to provoke discussion and intellectual banter. Here is why I say this. You claim “we don't need leaders or hierarchies, if we unite and learn to lead ourselves as an organized group”. Practically every group of species in the animal kingdom has ingrained within it the concept of leadership and a hierarchy. Have you never watched a nature documentary? Have you not seen the apes, the lions, the elephants and even the bees? Some of them decide on who’s going to be the leader through a physical contest. Are the animals also stuck in a paradigm of thinking we must have leaders and hierarchy? Consider a dog that happens to find itself as a pet living in an affluent part of town and then compare his life to another who is scurrying around looking for scraps in a slum waiting to be captured and put down. Should this dog not have the same rights as any other dog? Nature says no. Those are the rules. It’s nothing personal, it’s just business.

The reason I do not rush to offer an alternative solution is because there isn’t one. Our current state of existence imposes upon us a set of rules from which we simply cannot opt out however strong the desire or the wish.

So rather than continue to thrash out tired old ideas that have done the rounds many times before, fizzled out and returned once again to the fore only to fizzle out again, would it not be better to simply resign oneself to doing the best you can for yourself and anyone in your care, under whatever circumstances you happen to be in? Yes it’s difficult, yes it’s hard and at times it can be absolutely unbearable, but c’est la vie, as they say in France.

[buckminster fuller]

Posted by Bollinger (here)

So rather than continue to thrash out tired old ideas that have done the rounds many times before, fizzled out and returned once again to the fore only to fizzle out again, would it not be better to simply resign oneself to doing the best you can for yourself and anyone in your care, under whatever circumstances you happen to be in? Yes it’s difficult, yes it’s hard and at times it can be absolutely unbearable, but c’est la vie, as they say in France.

Well, in france we do say "c'est la vie", yet, we have a long history of not surrendering easily. From vercingetorix to robespierre, you will find people that actually succeded in galvanizing and uniting people for the common good. The "human nature" exists in its cultural context, and if the culture changes, this "nature" (really this term means nothing...) will change with it. It is a highly complex process, and it is easily verifiable looking at the changes occurring in individual psychology through time. Take individualism, for instance. In modern days, it has became stronger and stronger, due to the way our consumerist society organised itself. Being an individualist is the worst thing you can think of in terms of societal outcomes. And this is unfortunately where we're at now.
Yet, you will find differences depending on the area of france you are looking at. Often, people living in places with a lot of unemployment and poorness like the north of france, or the east will show a lot more solidarity than peeps living in big rich cities like Paris. Does it mean that the "human nature" is different from one place to another..? Of course not, it is the context, the culture, the history that makes people who they are. It is evident that we need to organize and unite if we want to better our world. Playing the ostrich is definitely not the answer, being selfish neither. Please realise that you already live in a utopian society, and that there is no reason not to change for the better. If you are really stuck that much in the current paradigm I don't even see why you'd participate to such a forum. In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king...

You don't want to be a part of it ? Nothing obliges you to do so. No need to argue there...

Peace

[skippy]

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)
It is evident that we need to organize and unite if we want to better our world. Playing the ostrich is definitely not the answer, being selfish neither.

If we, people of the world, don't unite, then:

- we will be responsible for our own decline
- we will be (part of) the problem (by pursuing our own self-interests on a global scale)
- we will serve the masters of this world as best as we can (through divide and conquer)
- we will destroy our future and those of the generations to come
- we will be hold accountable for the damage done
- we will move naturally towards a post-human/transhuman society
- etc.

The problem is not only "them" but it's also "us".. To unite and to build the new system, humans needs to go beyond self-interets, ego and personal freedom. The enemy is also "us".

[Bollinger]

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Posted by Bollinger (here)

So rather than continue to thrash out tired old ideas that have done the rounds many times before, fizzled out and returned once again to the fore only to fizzle out again, would it not be better to simply resign oneself to doing the best you can for yourself and anyone in your care, under whatever circumstances you happen to be in? Yes it’s difficult, yes it’s hard and at times it can be absolutely unbearable, but c’est la vie, as they say in France.

Well, in france we do say "c'est la vie", yet, we have a long history of not surrendering easily. From vercingetorix to robespierre, you will find people that actually succeded in galvanizing and uniting people for the common good. The "human nature" exists in its cultural context, and if the culture changes, this "nature" (really this term means nothing...) will change with it. It is a highly complex process, and it is easily verifiable looking at the changes occurring in individual psychology through time. Take individualism, for instance. In modern days, it has became stronger and stronger, due to the way our consumerist society organised itself. Being an individualist is the worst thing you can think of in terms of societal outcomes. And this is unfortunately where we're at now.
Yet, you will find differences depending on the area of france you are looking at. Often, people living in places with a lot of unemployment and poorness like the north of france, or the east will show a lot more solidarity than peeps living in big rich cities like Paris. Does it mean that the "human nature" is different from one place to another..? Of course not, it is the context, the culture, the history that makes people who they are. It is evident that we need to organize and unite if we want to better our world. Playing the ostrich is definitely not the answer, being selfish neither. Please realise that you already live in a utopian society, and that there is no reason not to change for the better. If you are really stuck that much in the current paradigm I don't even see why you'd participate to such a forum. In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king...

You don't want to be a part of it ? Nothing obliges you to do so. No need to argue there...

Peace

Buckminster, I see you’ve decided to carry the torch for this particular argument and you end with a sentiment that tries to shoo me off the thread. But, like Chico and a lot of other people, all I hear are ideals and lofty claims of one sort or another without a single actual example or evidence to suggest that this declaration is worth serious consideration.

Scratching around and looking for something valid to say, you bring up the word individualism as though it is something from which one has the power to opt in or opt out at will. We are all individualists whether we like it or not. You can look in the mirror and curse the blemishes on your face, even refuse to acknowledge them but do they cease to be a part of you because of your indignation? So I wonder who is really playing the ostrich here.

Out of all history you managed one sentence – “from vercingetorix to robespierre, you will find people that actually succeeded in galvanizing and uniting people for the common good” – that is supposed to prove your point. And yet it does no such thing. Yes, there are plenty of examples where individuals have succeeded in “galvanizing” and “uniting” people but did it change their nature? That’s what we are talking about. In order to change the world you have to change human nature, but we can’t do that, so we can’t change the world (in the way that is being desired here at any rate).

Let’s take another sentence from your post: “...it is the context, the culture, the history that makes people who they are. It is evident that we need to organize and unite if we want to better our world.” So now, you start to appeal to even more complex nouns such as “context”, “culture” and “history” to support your ideas. I don’t know how “context” plays any part but I can understand what you mean by “culture” and “history”. Those with superior history and culture fare better than those with a miserable one. That’s interesting; it’s not the evil sociopaths doing it on purpose after all; it all depends on your context, history and culture.

So then, by logical inference, if it really does depend on context, history and culture, we have to change those things instead. And to do that you recommend that we “organise” and “unite”. Once you have organised and united (which isn’t that difficult to do so long as you don’t start ordering people about) then what?

Imagine right now 10,000 people sign up to this thing and make themselves ready and available for whatever it is you want them to do. What are you going to say to them? You might make them all swear allegiance to the declaration but then what? They are awaiting instructions from you because you’ve called them to organise and unite for some purpose. I wouldn’t know what to say to them but I invite anyone to try.

Anyone who thinks they can change the world into some kind of paradise by making declarations, organising and uniting, is engaged in nothing but sophistry and illusion. The reality is that the world changes at its own pace not ours. I can’t help but notice that people come here with a predisposition to believe in things that have no base or precedence in reality. Where they get it from I can guess but you have to sometimes think for yourself and arrive at your own conclusions; not rely solely on other people.