Forgiveness

[truthseekerdan]

Those we forgive return forgiveness. Those we attack, hold it against us. Moreover, if they do not hold it against us, we will think they do. There is no way to offer something positive or negative, without some form of return, positive or negative. To be guilt free is to know nothing can hurt us, and by refusing to allow someone to hurt us, we are refusing them the opportunity to think they can hurt us. When two parties do not hurt each other, they love each other, whether they know it or not.

Love is born of understanding and forgiveness, while forgiveness itself is born of suffering. We need to experience the whole spectrum of feelings and emotions to be human. As we begin to understand more of ourselves, we become more human. By becoming more human, we become more balanced. By becoming more balanced, we are able to handle all aspects of our life in a way that results in the greatest good for us as an individual and as a part of the collective whole.

Namaste ~ Dan

[kinerkid]

Posted by Normalguy31 (here)
Very true, seems like we have hit a pretty serious rut in our pathway though. What's the next step? Have any members here, that are members at nexus asked for these things to be taken away? That is a practical first step I think. Just making suggestions, take them for what you will.

Another suggestion is to remove your own personal attachment from what other people say. Those are their words. You can choose your response or lack of response to their words. Just another suggestion. There is much more that we have in common, than we have in difference which Dennis and other have pointed out.

[Normalguy31]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by Normalguy31 (here)
I wish I knew how you felt. Being in the position you are in it is a little easier for me to say that than you, I am sure. What can we do? Have there been any response from nexus about taking these posts down?

As I stated in my closing posts:

There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

These individuals and this website value their public reputation, and rightfully so.

This defamation needs to be removed from public view.

Have any of the mods, or Richard or anyone responded to that statement though? I saw someone mention they we're using the guise of non-censorship as justification for leaving it up. What do you think it will take for these things to be taken away?

If I may ask, if not that is fine, what exactly are the posts that are in question?

[Anchor]

It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,

There are more things that require forgiveness, than comments on any forum.

I really want this thread to stay open - I was so pleased to see it start.

However, I worry that if it turns into a contest of Avalon's will over that of another it will not stand. As such it would not be an effective step in the process. [ I am sure that the process has started on that score - those with any sense or feeling in these matters will be able to discern it clearly ].

Understanding the nature of forgiveness - or taking the opportunity to fine tune ones thinking on the matter IS an excellent thing, and so I really hope we can avoid the proverbial trip-wire until the time is ready for the next leap of progress.

Forgiveness is no substitute or reason to countenance abusive behavior, but it is a certainty that the latter will ultimately require the former.

Namaste

John..

[ThePythonicCow]

Posted by kinerkid (here)
Another suggestion is to remove your own personal attachment from what other people say.

For the unkind words on this and other sites about myself, that is worthy advice. I am not a public figure. If I find an accusation of someone annoys me (even if "rightfully" so) I will gain most by looking inside myself and removing my unhealthy attachment to whatever they're accusing me of.

The success and livelihood of those persons and institutions in the public arena depends on their reputation. Even if defamation causes them no personal upset, it can cause them serious harm in their public endeavors. They have need to protect their reputation that people living more private lives, such as myself, don't have.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Normalguy31 (here)
Have any of the mods, or Richard or anyone responded to that statement though? I saw someone mention they we're using the guise of non-censorship as justification for leaving it up. What do you think it will take for these things to be taken away?

If I may ask, if not that is fine, what exactly are the posts that are in question?

This is not the proper place and time, nor I the proper individual, to respond to your questions.

For the moment, actions will speak louder than words.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Anchor (here)
It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,

Indeed.

For now this thread remains open. But it carries with it the risk that I see closure as the best option.

[kinerkid]

Thanks Paul for keeping this thread open. I would like to ask everyone, in their experience, what baby steps were they initially able to make towards forgiving someone who has wronged you?

[Lifesong]

Forgiveness is simple and easy.
It is a choice.
It is letting go of the fight.
It is choosing love.
It is the Golden Rule in action.
It is turning away from pride.
No conditions are necessary, as there's no control to be had, other than over oneself in choosing to forgive or not.

We must strive to keep choosing peace or risk remaining a race at war, both macro and micro.

Forgive someone anything, and feel peace wash over you. Forgive yourself and feel peace settle in to stay awhile, for sometimes we only think that we've been wronged or shorted when truly...what have we lost? Our expectations? Well, I think expectations can be a very wide road and another subject entirely.

Forgiveness allows respect for ourselves and one another, it acknowledges our individual personal power and our collective respect for our inability to control one another.

Forgiveness is strength.


- In Peace

[Anchor]

Posted by kinerkid (here)
Offering an olive branch. Instant rectification of all "who said what" probably isn't going to happen over night. But if each side take one baby step towards each other, that is progress towards reconciliation and forgiveness. Any suggestions towards that idea that don't come across intentionally or unintentionally as demands?

For someone asking questions about forgiveness, you seem to know more about it than you first let on

John..

[Normalguy31]

Posted by Anchor (here)
It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,

There are more things that require forgiveness, than comments on any forum.

I really want this thread to stay open - I was so pleased to see it start.

However, I worry that if it turns into a contest of Avalon's will over that of another it will not stand. As such it would not be an effective step in the process. [ I am sure that the process has started on that score - those with any sense or feeling in these matters will be able to discern it clearly ].

Understanding the nature of forgiveness - or taking the opportunity to fine tune ones thinking on the matter IS an excellent thing, and so I really hope we can avoid the proverbial trip-wire until the time is ready for the next leap of progress.

Forgiveness is no substitute for countenancing abusive behavior, but it is a certainty that the latter will ultimately require the former.

Namaste

John..

I would be more than happy to carry on a philosophical discussion on forgiveness. I was just trying to help I guess. It's probably not my place to try, and fix things. I don't really know whats going on behind the scenes. It came from a place of love, and hope more specifically.

For now abstract will do

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by kinerkid (here)
Another suggestion is to remove your own personal attachment from what other people say.

For the unkind words on this and other sites about myself, that is worthy advice. I am not a public figure. If I find an accusation of someone annoys me (even if "rightfully" so) I will gain most by looking inside myself and removing my unhealthy attachment to whatever they're accusing me of.

The success and livelihood of those persons and institutions in the public arena depends on their reputation. Even if defamation causes them no personal upset, it can cause them serious harm in their public endeavors. They have need to protect their reputation that people living more private lives, such as myself, don't have.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Normalguy31 (here)
Have any of the mods, or Richard or anyone responded to that statement though? I saw someone mention they we're using the guise of non-censorship as justification for leaving it up. What do you think it will take for these things to be taken away?

If I may ask, if not that is fine, what exactly are the posts that are in question?

This is not the proper place and time, nor I the proper individual, to respond to your questions.

For the moment, actions will speak louder than words.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Anchor (here)
It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,

Indeed.

For now this thread remains open. But it carries with it the risk that I see closure as the best option.

Thank you for you words my friend. Exactly what I wanted to hear. Good luck in your endeavors. Thank you for keeping this open.

[Nasu]

Posted by kinerkid (here)
I'd like to start a discussion on forgiveness. What enables you to forgive? What perimeters do you place on it? What does forgiveness mean to you?

In my opinion forgiveness is acceptance of what is or was. N

[Flash]

i must be from another world or another planet.

Forgiveness is unconditional no, and you don't expect anything in return.

However, when someone or a group strech their hands towards you for peace, you should accept it, shouldn't you? Accept the peace.

Do not retaliate by doing stuff like closing threads, which is as good as closing up to peace. This is conditional peace, where is the forgiveness in it?

Accept the hand for peace, build up a little trust and then ask for fairness and the difficult post to be removed. Don't act in turn like the brute because you think you have been brutalised.

Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads - I am not even on Nexus and yet I found their gesture outstanding. Not as much for our.

Now you MUST understand Israel and Palestine. A continuous back and forth of "we retaliate" on both sides and very conditional forgiveness, "only if the other does as I want". With a weaker one often going under of course.

Peace means forgiveness and opening up, not closing up.

[kinerkid]

Posted by Anchor;209922

[b
Forgiveness is no substitute or reason to countenance abusive behavior, but it is a certainty that the latter will ultimately require the former[/b].

And it is a certainty that the former is ultimately stronger than the latter.

[truthseekerdan]

Forgiveness takes us on a journey that enables us to understand self-healing. When we forgive, we circumvent a situation that could become unbearable. Forgiveness empowers us to eliminate anger and resentment, allowing enormous amounts of positive energy to change our mental and physical well being enough to dispose of stress, nervousness, restlessness, sadness, depression, anger and any associated trauma. Forgiveness and healing are aspects of the same reality. Forgiveness removes all energy blockages that prevent healing energy from flowing. Forgiveness is essential and possible under all circumstance, regardless of how much we hurt.

We have the power to free ourselves and to free others of any interpersonal guilt. Commit to forgive and the surfacing of freedom and empowerment will lead towards a positive future with others. For this to occur it is necessary for us to let go of our identity as victims or prisoners of destructive energy. All forgiveness is an act of unconditional love. All forgiveness is self-forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no future. Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past. Forgiveness is reclaiming power over our own life. As we give the gift of forgiveness, we ourselves are healed.

[Dennis Leahy]

Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

[kinerkid]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

The first effort has been made. Whether its complete enough is the question for you I think. What further harm can come by making an effort back and seeing where it leads?

[Flash]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?(Paraphrasing into adult language)

I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

I cannot agree with what was done on Avalon side. If you want to take the kids analogy, of course asking for forgiveness has to be sincere - as it seems to have been from Nexus. Of course you wont' want the brute behavior to be repeated and will try to stop it.

Are you going in turn to beat up your kid for him to stop beating up his brother? Probably not Dennis. You will ask to stop, give him a chance to stop, then ask again and eplain about fairness or heartfull beings..

We had here a first big gesture for stopping the nasty whole thing of bitching against each other. What is done in return is spanking the "kids" and cutting the relationship (cutting threads). Is this good parenthood?

And nobody are kids here (although sometimese we behave like kids, one cannot adress the situation as if we were, because we are not). Wrong analogy Dennis.

Palestine and Israel seems much more appropriate in this case. All adult being buckheads if you want my opinion. Read my post above.

Flash

Re: Forgiveness
i must be from another world or another planet.

Forgiveness is unconditional no, and you don't expect anything in return.

However, when someone or a group strech their hands towards you for peace, you should accept it, shouldn't you? Accept the peace.

Do not retaliate by doing stuff like closing threads, which is as good as closing up to peace. This is conditional peace, where is the forgiveness in it?

Accept the hand for peace, build up a little trust and then ask for fairness and the difficult post to be removed. Don't act in turn like the brute because you think you have been brutalised.

Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads - I am not even on Nexus and yet I found their gesture outstanding. Not as much for our.

Now you MUST understand Israel and Palestine. A continuous back and forth of "we retaliate" on both sides and very conditional forgiveness, "only if the other does as I want". With a weaker one often going under of course.

Peace means forgiveness and opening up, not closing up.

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by kinerkid (here)
The first effort has been made. Whether its complete enough is the question for you I think. What further harm can come by making an effort back and seeing where it leads?

Well, I thought I just gave some honest, real-world examples that forgiveness is part of a dynamic, and that forgiveness all by itself in an ongoing unresolved situation, is an unbalanced equation with an unhealthy outcome.

Did you read my examples? Are you going to leave the kid who is the recipient of the mean behavior in the sandbox with the badly behaving kid that has made no indication they will change? Are you sending your abused friend back for another beating?

Dennis


====================

Posted by Flash (here)
I cannot agree with what was done on Avalon side. If you want to take the kids analogy, of course asking for forgiveness has to be sincere - as it seems to have been from Nexus. Of course you wont' want the brute behavior to be repeated and will try to stop it.

Are you going in turn to beat up your kid for him to stop beating up his brother? Probably not Dennis. You will ask to stop, give him a chance to stop, then ask again and eplain about fairness or heartfull beings..

We had here a first big gesture for stopping the nasty whole thing of bitching against each other. What is done in return is spanking the "kids" and cutting the relationship (cutting threads). Is this good parenthood?

And nobody are kids here (although sometimese we behave like kids, one cannot adress the situation as if we were, because we are not). Wrong analogy Dennis.

Palestine and Israel seems much more appropriate in this case. All adult being buckheads if you want my opinion. Read my post above.

Flash

Re: Forgiveness
i must be from another world or another planet.

Forgiveness is unconditional no, and you don't expect anything in return.

However, when someone or a group strech their hands towards you for peace, you should accept it, shouldn't you? Accept the peace.

Do not retaliate by doing stuff like closing threads, which is as good as closing up to peace. This is conditional peace, where is the forgiveness in it?

Accept the hand for peace, build up a little trust and then ask for fairness and the difficult post to be removed. Don't act in turn like the brute because you think you have been brutalised.

Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads - I am not even on Nexus and yet I found their gesture outstanding. Not as much for our.

Now you MUST understand Israel and Palestine. A continuous back and forth of "we retaliate" on both sides and very conditional forgiveness, "only if the other does as I want". With a weaker one often going under of course.

Peace means forgiveness and opening up, not closing up.

Flash, I know you're beaming out loving energy. It is more than noticed, it is appreciated and welcomed.

As I said in my long reply in the thread that John/Anchor started, I really am thrilled that there is a sincere attempt at apology, and I have high hopes that there will be reconciliation.

If you want to put this in terms of Palestine and Israel (which is in itself a dangerous example, as I believe the Israeli government is clearly 99% of the problem), then this gesture is kind of like a group of citizens of one country bringing an olive branch to citizens of the other country. A loving, sweet, sincere gesture, but the governments need to sign the treaty, not the citizens. Some Israeli citizens might say, "we are sorry our government is waging genocide on you. Please forgive us." And the group of Palestinians might say, "we recognize your sincerity. Please make your government stop bombing us! We want to forgive your country, but we are being killed and pushed from our land - every day it continues!"

Please consider the threads that have been closed to be "temporarily closed", awaiting the outcome from the Nexus admin team. If they refuse to remove the slander and innuendo against Bill and Inelia, they dishonor the group of sincere Nexian "Peace Emissaries", and make their sincere gesture fall flat. The Nexus admins know I'm speaking the truth here. The idea that Bill and Inelia will completely forgive all the harm that has been done to them, after the slander and innuendo is removed and ceases, is completely up to them. In my estimation, it would be incredibly magnanimous, considering how many people have already been exposed to the poisonous words. I would hope that if this gesture originates in the hearts of the Nexus admins, that they would also ask the members who have publicly posted the poisonous material to offer Bill and Inelia a sincere public apology.

Dennis

[Normalguy31]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

I think the only thing you can do is try to help the husband. Coming from a person who is a little more enlightened do you not feel it is your duty to try, and heal the pain the husband has received that would cause him to act this way? I do. What else can you do?

We are either filled with compassion, or we are empty.

[NancyV]

I have no problem with forgiveness because I expect people to act exactly as who they are. Why should I be attached to them being themselves? I'm not. If they make personal attacks against me I normally laugh at them or sometimes get pissed off for a short time. But there is nothing to "forgive". They are being true to themselves. If I don't like who they are I won't be around them and if necessary I will tell them to go away (ban them) from my life.

This also translates to me not needing to "forgive" myself for past actions and words. I don't need anyone to forgive me and I don't need to forgive myself. Everything I have done and said was what I was feeling in the moment and who I was at that time. It seems counter productive to me to reinforce blame and shame on yourself for things you have done in the past. I like to recognize when I am being stupid or disgusting, then change it in the future. Mistakes and misjudgments are normal, not "sinful".

If someone was continually slandering and attacking me I would not even consider any request for forgiveness as it would be ridiculous to even engage in the concept of forgiveness with their behavior remaining the same, especially if it's in public view and they will not remove it. (this is hypothetical of course) LOL... If they stop the attacks and remove damaging and slanderous statements, we can then proceed with life as normal.

I would not choose in the future to be around a person who attacked me in such a manner because I would now know their character and how they operate in certain situations. That doesn't mean I wouldn't "forgive" them, it would just mean that I'm not interested in having their energy in my life. It is not my business how they act but it is my responsibility if I allow them in my life after knowing who they are and how they act in certain situations. Certainly I often give people a second or 3rd chance but they must always continue being who they are. So I blame no one but myself if I have someone in my life who continues to attempt to either abuse me or suck energy from me.

I suppose my concept of forgiveness comes from both traveling out of body, merging with the Source and also a near death experience I had. There was absolutely no forgiveness for anything ever needed! The concept of forgiveness was never even raised in any situation on any plane of existence! I think it is only here in 3D where we think we need forgiveness or need to give it. It doesn't mean I never say "I'm sorry", but it does mean that I don't need or desire forgiveness. The person to whom I say "I'm sorry" may stay angry with me or not. That is entirely up to them as I do not require their forgiveness. I say I am sorry for me, not to get some kind of absolution from them.

Nancy
PS: an example of when I say "I'm sorry". Just as I was writing this post I burnt the cornbread I was making for my husband. He came out, saw it and I said "I'm sorry!" in a pathetic funny little voice, then we both laughed and he said "sh*t happens".

[kinerkid]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

Well, I thought I just gave some honest, real-world examples that forgiveness is part of a dynamic, and that forgiveness all by itself in an ongoing unresolved situation, is an unbalanced equation with an unhealthy outcome.

Did you read my examples? Are you going to leave the kid who is the recipient of the mean behavior in the sandbox with the badly behaving kid that has made no indication they will change? Are you sending your abused friend back for another beating?

Dennis

I understand. Do you think dialogue would be a good initial step towards starting that dynamic? Especially in this virtual forum world we reside in as Nexus and Avalon? Perhaps it is the first stepping stone, leading to actions?