The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
I didn't exactly said you are racist, I said you favor Caucasian people (hence why you used the term "my family" back there, when addressing Bill Ryan's post. Since its not a secret, your views I mean, you surely don't feel the need to justify them to me, do you?

There are several identical characters like yourself on the David Icke forums, and its almost predictable how you would react, on certain topics/threads. So yes I have a history with such discussions.

Regarding the Aborigine people, there will be a post on my thread regarding Earth's history, maybe you could find the answers there (if you are looking for them, if not, oh well...)

Erm, my family are white australians, no?
And no, I don't need to justify my beliefs to you.
Or Bill, or anyone.
Whether I am right or wrong is very subjective.
I would challenge you to find anything I have said on this forum that could be said to be racist and ask the moderation staff if anything like that was removed.

Posted by K626 (here)
Think Onyx is being very disingenous within this debate and has used it as a springboard for nothing more than a naked attack on Sid.

*Just read back through the thread and I can see there has clearly been a misunderstanding between two intelligent men. Like that never happens!

Peace to all.

Avalon Lives!!

K

It is ok, he has one finger forward, three back, leave him go.

[Seikou-Kishi]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
I didn't exactly said you are racist, I said you favor Caucasian people (hence why you used the term "my family" back there, when addressing Bill Ryan's post. Since its not a secret, your views I mean, you surely don't feel the need to justify them to me, do you?

There are several identical characters like yourself on the David Icke forums, and its almost predictable how you would react, on certain topics/threads. So yes I have a history with such discussions.

Regarding the Aborigine people, there will be a post on my thread regarding Earth's history, maybe you could find the answers there (if you are looking for them, if not, oh well...)

"My family" means "my family"; he wasn't referring metaphorically to "my family white people everywhere".

The point Lord Sidious has been trying to make is that he should not feel shame for the actions of other people. He has only his own conduct to manage. If you say he is pro-white, it is only that he does not feel that specific, individual white people should feel guilt for things they haven't personally done. I don't expect every German person to mutter their apologies whenever they pass me by. I do not think you have any intention of trying to understand Sid's position, though. You want to make him out to be a racist and will not be satisfied until the mud you're slinging sticks.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
Can we replace the "white men" with the anglo-saxon men?
...

The irony is yes, by all accounts it most likely would have made a difference... To me that is what the entire problem is. Everyone wants to be a victim so they take words that can possibly be interpreted that way then make an emotional statement about it. It is up to the receiver to be responsible enough to use discernment. You see, (not you Oxy, I just stepped up to the soapbox), racism is 50% perceived, and those who wish to be victims will always perceive it. I knew this lovely black girl once, but she had this issue where everything that she perceived was due to racism. If someone rude jerk walked into the store and was rude, she'd cry the racism song. But that guy was an asshole to everyone - he didn't discriminate at all - he was just a jerk, but in her mind he was a racist and treated her rudely because she was black. A complete fabrication to justify her victim mentality. In her world racism was the biggest problem there ever was, is and will be. Was she a victim of racism? In reality maybe some (I never noticed it), but in her mind it was a constant that would never change.

Now let's assume that every person is "cured" of racism, but there are still people who "percieve" things as acts of racism. Does racism still exist? Yes it does to them, but does that mean it is "real"? No. Not necessarily.

Sidous "perceived" an act of racism. Did it exist? My above description desires that the perceiver be removed from the formula so we can remove the "victim" influence. Now let's look at the potentially offending statements. What can we define as "definately racist without a doubt"? What can we define as "potentially racist depending on the intention of the writer/speaker". The second we can address -- just ask the writer/speaker what his/her intentions were. Were his/her intentions racist? If not we can eliminate that.

So how do we define "definately racist without a doubt"? In writing or speaking, it would have to be something like "consistent justification of ill acts towards no specific member of a race of people", or "consistent derogatory language towards ..." In action, it would have to be the action itself.

This post isn't really directed at Sidous, he was just trying to make a point. I'm just hoping to point out a "higher level" perspective on racism.

[OnyxKnight]

Attack? lol



Fine, negative forum presence leaves!



PS: This is exactly what I meant when I said taking things out of context.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
Attack? lol



Fine, negative forum presence leaves!



PS: This is exactly what I meant when I said taking things out of context.

Dassvidanya, tovarich.
Better luck next time.

[OnyxKnight]

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
"My family" means "my family"; he wasn't referring metaphorically to "my family white people everywhere".

The point Lord Sidious has been trying to make is that he should not feel shame for the actions of other people. He has only his own conduct to manage. If you say he is pro-white, it is only that he does not feel that specific, individual white people should feel guilt for things they haven't personally done. I don't expect every German person to mutter their apologies whenever they pass me by. I do not think you have any intention of trying to understand Sid's position, though. You want to make him out to be a racist and will not be satisfied until the mud you're slinging sticks.

You forget the million dollar question: What the hell, do I get, for making him racist? A freaking medal!? LOL

He is doing a pretty fine job himself if you ask me. DeDukshyn explained things perfectly about this.

Bill was pointing out something factual, which got him all jigged up, because the term 'white' was mentioned. Why didn't I freak out, or any other white men? Only he did, and he felt such an insult to confront Bill in a very harsh manner. But like I said, I'm leaving the forum now since I don't see the point in sticking somewhere where I'm considered a "troublemaker" or attacking people. Довидување

[Amer]

If there’s one thing I can’t tolerate it is innuendo. If we are going to post things – post the whole bloody lot because this is unfair to all of us who invest time and energy in genuinely trying to understand .When we start to enter “white pride” “pro-white views” into the equation well then the debate takes a different turn for me. Perhaps I really am too slow on the uptake because #1 I didn’t entertain a genuine racist agenda here. Attaching a racist slur to Bill Ryan is quite ridiculous, and if I understood correctly Rob was calling into question the words we use without thinking of their weight-but not that Bill was racist in any way. And #2 I didn’t entertain the fact that Rob was coming from a “white pride” “pro-white view” background because these are also words that carry a certain amount of heavy duty weight with them.

So OnyxKnight please call a spade a spade, hinting at details serve only to confuse. Remember what weight words carry. I recall a pervious Avalon poster who is not a member anymore who continually posted comments “if you all knew what I know well then…..”It totally frustrated and angered me. It serves nothing. If the debate is not honest by all parties well then that is down-right two-faced. And I hate that .Just hate that. If we can’t be honest we are nothing.

Rant over.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
"My family" means "my family"; he wasn't referring metaphorically to "my family white people everywhere".

The point Lord Sidious has been trying to make is that he should not feel shame for the actions of other people. He has only his own conduct to manage. If you say he is pro-white, it is only that he does not feel that specific, individual white people should feel guilt for things they haven't personally done. I don't expect every German person to mutter their apologies whenever they pass me by. I do not think you have any intention of trying to understand Sid's position, though. You want to make him out to be a racist and will not be satisfied until the mud you're slinging sticks.

You forget the million dollar question: What the hell, do I get, for making him racist? A freaking medal!? LOL

He is doing a pretty fine job himself if you ask me. DeDukshyn explained things perfectly about this.

Bill was pointing out something factual, which got him all jigged up, because the term 'white' was mentioned. Why didn't I freak out, or any other white men? Only he did, and he felt such an insult to confront Bill in a very harsh manner. But like I said, I'm leaving the forum now since I don't see the point in sticking somewhere where I'm considered a "troublemaker" or attacking people. Довидување

By all means, find one post that could show I am what you say I am.
Go ahead.

[K626]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
Can we replace the "white men" with the anglo-saxon men?
...

The irony is yes, by all accounts it most likely would have ... To me that is what the entire problem is. Everyone wants to be a victim so they take words that can possibly be interpreted that way then make an emotional statement about it. It is up to the receiver to be responsible enough to use discernment. You see, (not you Oxy, I just stepped up to the soapbox), racism is 50% perceived, and those who wish to be victims will always perceive it. I knew this lovely black girl once, but she had this issue where everything that she perceived was due to racism. If someone rude jerk walked into the store and was rude, she'd cry the racism song. But that guy was an asshole to everyone - he didn't disciminate at all - he was just a jerk, but in her mind he was a racist and treated her rudely because she was black. A complete fabrication to justify her victim mentality. In her world racism was the biggest problem there ever was, is and will be. Was she a victim of racism? In reality maybe some (I never noticed it), but in her mind it was a constant that would never change.

Now let's assume that every person is "cured" of racism, but there are still people who "percieve" things as acts of racism. Does racism still exist? Yes it does to them, but does that mean it is "real"? No. Not necessarily.

Sidous "perceived" an act of racism. Did it exist? Since my above desciption desires that the perceiver be removed from the formula so we can remove the "victim" influence. Now let's look at the potentially offending statements. What can we define as "definately racist without a doubt"? What can we define as "potentially racist depending on the intention of the writer/speaker". The second we can address -- just ask the writer/speaker what his/her intentions were. Were his/her intentions racist? If not we can eliminate that.

So how do we define "definately racist without a doubt"? In writing or speaking, it would have to be something like "consistent justification of ill acts towards no specific member of a race of people", or "consistent derogatory language towards ..." In action, it would have to be the action itself.

This post isn't really directed at Sidous, he was just trying to make a point. I'm just hoping to point out a "higher level" perspective on racism.

Racism is learnt behaviour. It is taught and it often starts in the family and is re-inforced at school.

You very very rarely see racism at a Kindergarten because the child is still neutral, but as they hit 7/8/9 they start to pick up on it.

It is a cultural constant.

It is part of the armoury of the PTB and the ruling elite.

It is considered and determined it is agenda setting and re-enforced by the MSM.

One solid example is hip hop which back in the day started as rap music and was basically social poetry to breakbeats (black youth on street corners talking about thier REAL lives and so on)..Once this was taken over by record companies and turned into a commodity it was removed from the street (not in all cases) and now we have gansta rap and bitches and bling and artists talking not about the real issues any longer but how big their new car is (fantasy black lives with swimming pools and champagne). These black artists are supported and kept there by the mainstream to mislead and confuse and mystify the black experience and the original soul of rap has been colonised by white business interests (record companies and multinationals) and white agenda setting (demeaning the roots of the original movement)..

There are no accidents here, it is carefully considered with malice aforethought and pre-determined strategies against black culture. It is top down control at its finest. It is evasive and it is flim flam and why most of white america doesn't identify with the lot of black americans is cause it is kept from them it is kept exotic and mystifyied and that is CONTROL and the MSM do it as a matter of course.

cheers

X

[Meadowlark]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
Tactfully is a very subjective term.
What I call tactfull and what you call that could be very different.
You may recall that Bill and others have reacted far stronger than I have to people slandering them.
I wonder, why can they DEMAND an apology but I can't?
Is there a status difference?
Is it that some of you readers are reacting to what you THINK I have said and not what I actually did say?
And please, don't tell me that a fictitious drama is evidence of anything.
Would you agree that movies are usually based on reality and not reality itself?
I always stand behind what I say, unless I have made an error, I don't see how that is radical.
Not that you are saying that, I am just saying that is how my ways are seen.
Now, the thing is, some of you are taking this as Bill vs Me.
Why is it that it has to be like that?
Why can't it be that I am trying to help not just him, but you guys too, to see the error in the thinking here?
Yes, I was offended, but then I realised Bill delivered to me on a platter an opportunity.
A healing opportunity.
We know what has been going on for a little while here about people saying things that others have taken offense to and then demanded apologies for.
Well, here is the opportunity I present to all of you, seeing as I have to spell it out, none of you realised this.
The opportunity is to see how the people that slandered some of our members, according to the said members are in some cases, mirrors of the same here.
Do you not see that Bill has done the same thing?
And won't acknowledge that?
Even as he demands the others do and that they apologise?

Hi Sidious,

Fair point about tactful, being a subjective term.

I see that you feel Bill slandered you by referring to “white men” but as a white man myself, I just don’t feel that way. He probably should have said “some white men.” If he had used the word some, I think it would be hard to argue with the accuracy as what Bill said.

Look, as far as there being a double-standard, I basically agree with you that no one should be treated differently on this forum. But I’ve only been here for about a month, so I just don’t know if others have demanded an apology in the past under similar circumstances as you claim.

I was here though when members were banned a few weeks ago, and even though I haven’t posted about it yet, I wasn’t completely happy with how it was handled either.

So please don’t think this is me just rushing in to defend whoever is in charge of this forum. My reaction doesn’t have anything to do with that; I would have the same reaction no matter who you this pertained to.

When you say things like, “Don’t justify your statement;” “Be a man;” or “Stand behind what you wrote, don’t try to evade it;” you’re making commands that I don’t think are going to be very effective in getting someone to listen to you.

If you think he’s contradicting himself or applying a double-standard, then I think you’d be a lot more persuasive if you just said that and then provide evidence of where you think that happened.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)

Posted by OnyxKnight (here)
Attack? lol

Fine, negative forum presence leaves!

PS: This is exactly what I meant when I said taking things out of context.

Dassvidanya, tovarich.
Better luck next time.

Enough, Lord Sid. You are way out of line.

Here are Seikou-Kishi's original posts:

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
I am sick to the back teeth of the petulant complaints about members leaving, being banned or suspended from the forum. This forum's moderators and administrators have a heavy duty upon them to ensure that the forum is a healthy and focused place in which to discuss its very important topics — if that means they lose your favour, so be it; they have greater considerations.

You're all so quick to say how awful the 'censorship' is here at Avalon as soon as somebody objects to the way in which you tear it down in your posts, but Avalon is, as has so often been mentioned, not a free house or a free-for-all. This is Bill's forum and we are here in his house to share our experiences and our thoughts. If you do not like Bill or his house rules, stop bitching about them both and leave.

I can say it not more directly: if you dislike how Avalon is run, leave.

It really should show you that there is no censorship here at Avalon when you can berate it endlessly and with impunity. If you still think there's censorship here, though, you owe it to yourself to leave, and you owe it to us to leave us in peace.

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)

Posted by Ammit (here)
Oh what a rant that was...

I see it as people sorry to see friends leave here for whatever reasons, and those reasons are their personal reasons. If I see a thread that I am bored of seeing or have no interest in, I DO NOT READ IT, simple.

I can say it not more directly: if you dislike certain forums, then DO NOT READ THEM.

I can see what you did, there, and I take your point but the ideas are not symmetrical: to continue the analogy of this being Bill's house and Avalon's members as guests within his house, it would not be sufficient to say 'if you dislike how somebody treats this house, divert your gaze', while saying 'if you insist on mistreating my house, please leave'. We cannot simply neglect what is happening here.

Posted by Amer (here)
Seikou-kishi, I respect your opinion and your right to express it 100%. I for my part have never bitched I can assure you. I love reading here and learning here. But if something doesn't feel right I question it, always respectfully, I question many things, that's how I learn. I question people, their motives, their ideas, philosphies, intentions. I like to bounce off of people. I feel like I'm in a constant learning curve. I take nothing for granted.. When I was a little girl my brother used to call me "20 questions"- I would drive him nuts, the same at school, the same at university. It's me, but always respectful. I can't help feeling perhaps you started this thread because of what I wrote a short while ago in the "another member gone" thread. I did not post to upset the apple cart but simply to question in a healthy way. I'm sorry if you thought it was bitching. I can assure you it wasn't. We sit at our computers and read and write not merely words, but the thoughts coming from real people. It would be shallow not to in some small way care about these people whose words sometimes go around in our heads and resonate with us.

You're right, Amer, and nobody here is saying that there are things that shouldn't be questioned, but when that festers from simple question-asking into a constant background whir it's surely very different. Avalon is being pecked at from within and it's only because of Avalon's great tolerance that such an infection hasn't already been flushed out. The plentiful examples of tolerance, understanding and openness at Avalon do nothing to assuage the qualms of those who consider it censored, and I can only draw the conclusion that after so long these people do not want their qualms answered or their worries assured, but that they are solely intent on perpetuating the idea that this place is a Stalinist dictatorship.

Nobody seems to appreciate more than Bill when a person takes a reasoned and measured disagreement with a post he has made; it seems to me that he looks upon it as a chance to further elucidate his meaning. People choose not to see that, though, and it's disappointing. Bill has demonstrated his patience on numerous times, but it goes unnoticed because patience is, by necessity, less obvious than impatience. I feel deeply aggrieved to watch Bill slandered by people while maintaining his dignity. I often feel he is too patient.

Bouncing ideas off people, Amer, is absolutely great and something that is done frequently here. I'm sorry that people have confused genuine discussion with what has been going on on this forum in certain quarters, but such discussion is greatly appreciated here, and it is the same who scream censorship that try to blur the distinction between what they do and such discussion.

Back to topic, please. Seikou-Kishi's posts were articulate and intelligent. Lord Sid, you completely derailed this discussion. If you want to accuse me of being a racist, please start a new thread.
(But I will not participate.)

[Tangri]

Posted by Amer (here)
If there’s one thing I can’t tolerate it is innuendo. If we are going to post things – post the whole bloody lot because this is unfair to all of us who invest time and energy in genuinely trying to understand .When we start to enter “white pride” “pro-white views” into the equation well then the debate takes a different turn for me. Perhaps I really am too slow on the uptake because #1 I didn’t entertain a genuine racist agenda here. Attaching a racist slur to Bill Ryan is quite ridiculous, and if I understood correctly Rob was calling into question the words we use without thinking of their weight-but not that Bill was racist in any way. And #2 I didn’t entertain the fact that Rob was coming from a “white pride” “pro-white view” background because these are also words that carry a certain amount of heavy duty weight with them.

So OnyxKnight please call a spade a spade, hinting at details serve only to confuse. Remember what weight words carry. I recall a pervious Avalon poster who is not a member anymore who continually posted comments “if you all knew what I know well then…..”It totally frustrated and angered me. It serves nothing. If the debate is not honest by all parties well then that is down-right two-faced. And I hate that .Just hate that. If we can’t be honest we are nothing.

Rant over.

If you are criticize your own kind it is not a racism act if you try to lower other race ,it is racism.
If you are not black , you may not call your African friend as a nigro(except you are Spanish and using your own word) . I can argue with anyone from my race to criticize my race but I will not accept any comment from different race is it correct?

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Meadowlark (here)

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
Tactfully is a very subjective term.
What I call tactfull and what you call that could be very different.
You may recall that Bill and others have reacted far stronger than I have to people slandering them.
I wonder, why can they DEMAND an apology but I can't?
Is there a status difference?
Is it that some of you readers are reacting to what you THINK I have said and not what I actually did say?
And please, don't tell me that a fictitious drama is evidence of anything.
Would you agree that movies are usually based on reality and not reality itself?
I always stand behind what I say, unless I have made an error, I don't see how that is radical.
Not that you are saying that, I am just saying that is how my ways are seen.
Now, the thing is, some of you are taking this as Bill vs Me.
Why is it that it has to be like that?
Why can't it be that I am trying to help not just him, but you guys too, to see the error in the thinking here?
Yes, I was offended, but then I realised Bill delivered to me on a platter an opportunity.
A healing opportunity.
We know what has been going on for a little while here about people saying things that others have taken offense to and then demanded apologies for.
Well, here is the opportunity I present to all of you, seeing as I have to spell it out, none of you realised this.
The opportunity is to see how the people that slandered some of our members, according to the said members are in some cases, mirrors of the same here.
Do you not see that Bill has done the same thing?
And won't acknowledge that?
Even as he demands the others do and that they apologise?

Hi Sidious,

Fair point about tactful, being a subjective term.

I see that you feel Bill slandered you by referring to “white men” but as a white man myself, I just don’t feel that way. He probably should have said “some white men.” If he had used the word some, I think it would be hard to argue with the accuracy as what Bill said.

Look, as far as there being a double-standard, I basically agree with you that no one should be treated differently on this forum. But I’ve only been here for about a month, so I just don’t know if others have demanded an apology in the past under similar circumstances as you claim.

I was here though when members were banned a few weeks ago, and even though I haven’t posted about it yet, I wasn’t completely happy with how it was handled either.

So please don’t think this is me just rushing in to defend whoever is in charge of this forum. My reaction doesn’t have anything to do with that; I would have the same reaction no matter who you this pertained to.

When you say things like, “Don’t justify your statement;” “Be a man;” or “Stand behind what you wrote, don’t try to evade it;” you’re making commands that I don’t think are going to be very effective in getting someone to listen to you.

If you think he’s contradicting himself or applying a double-standard, then I think you’d be a lot more persuasive if you just said that and then provide evidence of where you think that happened.

Thanks for your input.
Why can't it just be some men?
Or some people?
The thing is, I like to think that I live up to what I believe.
Maybe I do, maybe I don't, that would be something you would have to ask people who know me, I wouldn't be a good witness on that.
I try not to set a standard for anyone else that I can't or won't keep myself.
You could be right that I could have chosen better words, I don't disagree with you there.
Sometimes it is necessary to use words that are stronger than you might normally use to get someones attention.

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Enough, Lord Sid. You are way out of line.

Back to topic, please. Seikou-Kishi's posts were articulate and intelligent. Lord Sid, you completely derailed this discussion. If you want to accuse me of being a racist, please start a new thread.
(But I will not participate.)

I didn't call you a racist at any time, did I?
And you derailed this, not me, you just won't admit it.
I am actually trying to help you see something here.
You wanna dodge this, but that won't be happening.
I put it to you, that you have a standard for your ''guests'' and one for yourself.
You did to all white australians what you claimed people did to you, inelia, dennis, paul and others.
You want an apology from them, but you can't give me one?
Oh and by the way, YOU are out of line sir, not me.
All you have to do is admit your error, apologise, I will rep your post and we move on.
Is that fair enough or not?

[Seikou-Kishi]

Can we not just have a ceasefire? Bill and Sid, you're both intelligent, honourable people. Honourable men can differ.

[Morgaine]

Unfortunately, as with many online forums of a shall we say, a controversial nature, the freedom to espouse ones beliefs/inner thoughts can lead to grandstanding and battles of ego.
People can easily confuse the freedom such a forum allows them, with the opportunity to gain a higher level of popularity and the chance to attempt a "Moses Moment" by presenting their presumably jaw-dropping facts & unsubstantiated predictions. I find this so directly oppositional to what I need (what we all need perhaps) at this very important time on our Earth, that it is quite depressing. I for one am looking for kindred souls, mentors, like mindeds, teachers.
Our Earth is changing, rapidly. If we all look within ourselves, our souls, we can admit that we all feel something. A knowing, or even just a sense that we are being made aware of a change in the dynamic. Ask around, you will find most people are thinking the same.
As everyone here is clearly highly intelligent, and some are in possession of gifts and qualities that would be so useful and inspirational to all here, I think we perhaps could take a step back and reevaluate the purpose of our inclusion here. Racism (accidental or not), fear mongering and intellectual bickering is oh so very human nature I know, but isn't it time to bring our gifts to the table and to work together?
EDIT: I do not mean to insult anyone with my opinion, thank you everybody.

[Lord Sidious]

I am happy to work together Morgaine, that is the whole point.

[Meadowlark]

Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
Can we not just have a ceasefire? Bill and Sid, you're both intelligent, honourable people. Honourable men can differ.

How about this for a compromise:

Bill says it would have been more precise to use the phrase “some white men” instead of just “white men.”

Sid admits some of his comments were probably over the top, and not the best way to make his point.

[Ammit]

Jesus, I dont believe this went on so long. 123 posts of battling because one person objected to other members being shocked at their friends here leaving. I know I objected to the initial comments, of which I still stand by my response, but dudes, lets leave it now and just say we cleared the air a little, we all need to do that at times.

With all that is going on with events at the moment we all need a little escape but lets get back on track and again become a community. Please guys....

If this gets beyond 130 posts, you can say good bye to me too.

[seko]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
I am happy to work together Morgaine, that is the whole point.

thank you for the very long thread I did get what Lord Sid was saying, lets use our words carefully, before we say something. I will move on to another thread, to continue learning with all of you.