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Thread: The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
    No I think you were right there. I was grateful to read your post. I think though that the basic equation is Australia before colonisation = ecologically sound; Australia after colonisation = ecologically unsound. It's not because white people are white, it's simply the way it is.
    I would suggest that if you believe that, you need to read more.
    And, I would bet that Bill needs to know more about things before he uses a movie as evidence of abuse.
    I am not going to talk about the aborigines and their plight, that is a very complicated subject.
    One that a lot of you are not qualified to talk about, because you only read of it, you have no experience of it.
    I have.
    Last edited by Paul; 9th May 2011 at 17:00. Reason: reduce nested quote'ing depth

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Hi Lord Sidious,

    I really don't understand why are you so offended by Bill's post. I'm from Spain and I'm ashamed of the demage that my fellow contrymen did in South America and Central America long time ago.... One can not deny or refuse that "That" happened.

    With all my respect for you,
    P.

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    I certainly need to read more if it's the case that Australian aborigines were ecologically unsound

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
    I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
    I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
    Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
    I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
    THAT is why I am doing this.
    Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
    If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
    I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.
    Point taken, LS. We all make generalizations about groups of people without thinking it through because it's so easy to do...part of the programming imo. As difficult as it may be, it's time to move past the generalizations and the programming to more thought-out and thought-full dialogue.

    Of course, I could be totally misunderstanding the point, in which case would you please enlighten me, LS?

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Lord Sidious, do you want Fries with those nuggets? j/k

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Sid I rely do expect a bashing with a bunch of your famous organic carrots for even daring to suggest this nugget!!

    We had a little chat in the chat room yesterday, which I enjoyed by the way.
    During our chat I asked you the situation with the radio station, as I was unaware
    in which direction the proposed project was heading.

    I felt your disappointment, truly. You told me It was Dead in the Water.

    My question to you is, Has your response to Bill's post in this thread been triggered or tainted by you feeling ignored with regards the radio show.

    I am a white man, I also know The White Man have caused untold atrocities all over this planet.

    My granddad told me, To be angered at criticisms is to acknowledge they are to be deserved.

    Ace runs for cover from flying carrots...

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by prometheus (here)
    Hi Lord Sidious,

    I really don't understand why are you so offended by Bill's post. I'm from Spain and I'm ashamed of the demage that my fellow contrymen did in South America and Central America long time ago.... One can not deny or refuse that "That" happened.

    With all my respect for you,
    P.
    Rigtht, so you feel guilty for something you didn't do too?
    Mmmmm.
    No more kool aid for you.
    Why?
    Why are you guilty?
    Since when is guilt by association valid?
    THIS IS PART OF MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Thank you for helping me.
    Do you guys start to see now what I am doing?

    Quote Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
    I certainly need to read more if it's the case that Australian aborigines were ecologically unsound
    I can tell you that they used fire to herd animals into ambushes as a hunting tactic.
    They still do it today.
    The ENTIRE centre of the continent was rainforest, much like queensland was.
    It isn't now.
    You guys do the mathmatics and tell me what that means.
    Does that mean that I should go bash the modern aborigines because of it?
    If you guys say no, then why should I NOT put Bill on the spot for making the exact OPPOSITE statement?

    Quote Posted by Belle (here)
    Quote Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
    I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
    I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
    Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
    I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
    THAT is why I am doing this.
    Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
    If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
    I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.
    Point taken, LS. We all make generalizations about groups of people without thinking it through because it's so easy to do...part of the programming imo. As difficult as it may be, it's time to move past the generalizations and the programming to more thought-out and thought-full dialogue.

    Of course, I could be totally misunderstanding the point, in which case would you please enlighten me, LS?
    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    One receiving station got the message uncorrupted.
    Thanks.

    Quote Posted by EsmaEverheart (here)
    Lord Sidious, do you want Fries with those nuggets? j/k
    No thanks, but I wouldn't knock back some Jack Daniels though.

    Quote Posted by ace (here)
    Sid I rely do expect a bashing with a bunch of your famous organic carrots for even daring to suggest this nugget!!

    We had a little chat in the chat room yesterday, which I enjoyed by the way.
    During our chat I asked you the situation with the radio station, as I was unaware
    in which direction the proposed project was heading.

    I felt your disappointment, truly. You told me It was Dead in the Water.

    My question to you is, Has your response to Bill's post in this thread been triggered or tainted by you feeling ignored with regards the radio show.

    I am a white man, I also know The White Man have caused untold atrocities all over this planet.

    My granddad told me, To be angered at criticisms is to acknowledge they are to be deserved.

    Ace runs for cover from flying carrots...
    No, I am not going to carrot you for asking a genuine question.
    No, this is only about one line Bill wrote and how it is different than what he meant.
    And how he objects, quite rightly to people slandering him and others and how he did it to me and mine.
    Also, not one white man has ever committed an atrocity.
    Men did, white men did not.
    Stop the madness, stop feeling guilt for stuff you didn't do.
    Imagine if the context in the post I objected to was not white australians, it was africans, arabs, jews, whatever?
    Do you think THAT would be more obvious?
    I think it would.

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    So .. L_Sid is correct in principle, as well as Bill. hmmm ...

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
    Quote Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
    Quote Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Depends which forest!
    ...

    For those of you in Australia, ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.

    Planet Earth has been trashed by humans doing what they want and taking what they want without any regard for others.

    This forum should be a reflection of the human race at its finest: not a reflection of the human race at its worst.
    Thanks for reinforcing racist stereotypes about Australia Bill.
    You should know better.
    In fact, I would like you to apologise, thanks.
    It's not reinforcing racist stereotypes, it's a description of what is happening.
    I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
    I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
    Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
    I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
    THAT is why I am doing this.
    Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
    If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
    I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.
    Sorry, Sidious, in this case you overreacted and took something that is a fact personally. If Bill had said "For those of you in the USA, ask the Native American Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish", I would not have taken it personally. It is true that white men killed off many Indians just as it is true that white men killed off many Aborigines. That doesn't reflect on me because I am white. I did not personally participate in it but it is a fact. I don't care if there were mitigating circumstances, if the Indians killed white men if they really were a hindrance to "progress" or any other reasons why white men killed off so many Indians and Aborigines. I also don't make a final judgment about who was right or wrong. It was basically a war. I wasn't there and history is often rather distorted and incorrectly portrayed by the conquerors. But it is still a fact that many indigenous cultures have almost been wiped out, often by "white men", often by Chinese, Japanese, Blacks, etc. It's history, a fait accompli.

    Demanding an apology from Bill for stating a fact is not reasonable. I hope he doesn't apologize. I sure wouldn't. In fact YOU overreacted and if anyone were to demand an apology it should be Bill, but that's not his usual style. He doesn't often overreact and make demands. He first attempts to clarify what someone's true meaning and intentions are if they are at all questionable. You also don't often overreact, but in this case you might as well just admit that you had a knee jerk reaction to a situation which seems to be a big emotional button for you. Whites killing off many Indians here in the US is not an emotional button for me. It's a fact. Indians also killed off other Indians and whites also killed whites, but whites almost wiped out the native culture.

    Amor vincit omnia

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    * Buys a round of Carrot Juice for all to sip while they cool down.*

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Inelia passes LS the peace carrot.

    My ancestors took the land now called Chile from the Mapuche.

    The Mapuche are still being killed and incarcerated for trying to protect what is our human heritage TODAY not in some historical past - ancient forests and ecological treasures. Who is destroying them? Chilean (Chile being the nation founded by Spanish decedents), European and Japanese monopolies.

    Yeah, mostly white, but not all white. Do all whites and Japanese support and take part in this destruction? NO. Only those who feel they can do what they please without a thought to the destruction they are committing, and supported by a corrupt government:

    http://www.vjmovement.com/truth/817

    I would say that the Mapuche are the caretakers (moderators) of that part of the planet, and are badly needed.
    Last edited by Inelia; 9th May 2011 at 16:57.

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Come on Avalonians, we are here to learn and share true information. We shouldn't fight between each other. Bill was right, Lord Sidious was right. Lets move on please, I like you both. You both are clever and smart and share wisdom words now and then, in this forum. Lets keep it that way.

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
    Quote Posted by prometheus (here)
    Hi Lord Sidious,

    I really don't understand why are you so offended by Bill's post. I'm from Spain and I'm ashamed of the demage that my fellow contrymen did in South America and Central America long time ago.... One can not deny or refuse that "That" happened.

    With all my respect for you,
    P.
    Rigtht, so you feel guilty for something you didn't do too?
    Mmmmm.
    No more kool aid for you.
    Why?
    Why are you guilty?
    Since when is guilt by association valid?
    THIS IS PART OF MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Thank you for helping me.
    Do you guys start to see now what I am doing?
    I said "I'm ashamed". I didn't say "I feel guilty. That's the point!!!
    I don't feel guilty for something I've not done but I honestly accept that the whitemen of my counttry didn't do it "well".
    Don't distort my words, please.
    Last edited by Paul; 9th May 2011 at 17:20. Reason: fix quote'ing

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    With regard to Aboriginal history, yes as LS pointed out it is highly complex and the propaganda around it is extreme. Especially concerning the 'Stolen Generations'. What you may not know is there has been a substantial reward on offer outstanding for some time now, there for anyone to pick up providing they have concrete proof they where actually part of the purported stolen generation and not legitimately removed under the child protection paradigm as then practised.

    That is not to say that I don't find my governments response to the plight of some of these people disgusting in the extreme. ie Huge sums of money start of at the top but never quite seem to hit the ground in enough quantity to make a difference. It would have a lot to do with the almost exclusively white 'do goody good good sector' sponging of the middle of the process.

    Of course another problem is that of the claim of Terra Nullius which is patently false and since no treaty was ever signed they have full legal claim to the entire continent. So the cynic in me says that the gubmints preffered option has always been genocide.

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by 777 (here)
    Oh and Palpatine, you are one of my favourite members here. You're intelligent, highly experienced in many fields of life and make daily fantastic contributions. I have to say with this, I think you've got it wrong. That's only my subjective opinion, take it as you may. As long as you stick around please, I'd miss you otherwise!
    Again, go back and read what I have said over and over.
    I am not usually a troublemaker here.
    If I am not trying to cause trouble now, then what I am trying to do?
    Answer that, then you may get my intent.
    I don't intend to go anywhere, but thanks.

    Quote Posted by NancyV (here)
    Sorry, Sidious, in this case you overreacted and took something that is a fact personally. If Bill had said "For those of you in the USA, ask the Native American Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish", I would not have taken it personally. It is true that white men killed off many Indians just as it is true that white men killed off many Aborigines. That doesn't reflect on me because I am white. I did not personally participate in it but it is a fact. I don't care if there were mitigating circumstances, if the Indians killed white men if they really were a hindrance to "progress" or any other reasons why white men killed off so many Indians and Aborigines. I also don't make a final judgment about who was right or wrong. It was basically a war. I wasn't there and history is often rather distorted and incorrectly portrayed by the conquerors. But it is still a fact that many indigenous cultures have almost been wiped out, often by "white men", often by Chinese, Japanese, Blacks, etc. It's history, a fait accompli.

    Demanding an apology from Bill for stating a fact is not reasonable. I hope he doesn't apologize. I sure wouldn't. In fact YOU overreacted and if anyone were to demand an apology it should be Bill, but that's not his usual style. He doesn't often overreact and make demands. He first attempts to clarify what someone's true meaning and intentions are if they are at all questionable. You also don't often overreact, but in this case you might as well just admit that you had a knee jerk reaction to a situation which seems to be a big emotional button for you. Whites killing off many Indians here in the US is not an emotional button for me. It's a fact. Indians also killed off other Indians and whites also killed whites, but whites almost wiped out the native culture.

    Amor vincit omnia
    Thanks for your input.
    It is all down to one part in your post, YOU wouldn't be offended.
    You are not me.
    Again, if I changed it from white australians and put african american males do .................., I bet you would then want me punished.
    Why is this different?
    Why is it so hard for Bill to apologise?
    I did.
    I was harsh to my friend in my words and I had been thinking about it before.
    I didn't want to hurt his feelings, I wanted to give him a reality check.
    The thing is, you guys are all REACTING.
    You get it?
    REACTING.
    To your programming. I am attempting to show you that as well as get Bill to realise that what he said and what he meant wasn't the same.

    Quote Posted by EsmaEverheart (here)
    * Buys a round of Carrot Juice for all to sip while they cool down.*
    Excellent, stick some vodka in it and now we are talking.
    Oh, but not smirnoff, that is liquid sandpaper, stolichnaya thanks.

    Quote Posted by Inelia (here)
    Inelia passes LS the peace carrot.

    My ancestors took the land now called Chile from the Mapuche.

    The Mapuche are still being killed and incarcerated for trying to protect what is our human heritage TODAY not in some historical past - ancient forests and ecological treasures. Who is destroying them? Chilean (Chile being the nation founded by Spanish decedents), European and Japanese monopolies.

    Yeah, mostly white, but not all white. Do all whites and Japanese support and take part in this destruction? NO. Only those who feel they can do what they please without a thought to the destruction they are committing, and supported by a corrupt government:

    http://www.vjmovement.com/truth/817

    I would say that the Mapuche are the caretakers (moderators) of that part of the planet, and are badly needed.
    Let me assume for a second that you mean your bloodline ancestors did this.
    So what? That isn't you. Guilt by association is frowned upon in most circles.
    I don't disagree with what you say either, but white men are not doing this, men are.
    And you know why?
    MONEY.
    Not because they want to kill the Mapuche.
    I bet the couldn't give a toss whether they survive or not.
    The thing is this, this thread PROVES we are still stuck with one part of the conditioning at least.
    If that is not healed, how do we then go out and heal others?

    Quote Posted by seko (here)
    Come on Avalonians, we are here to learn and share true information. We shouldn't fight between each other. Bill was right, Lord Sidious was right. Lets move on please, I like you both. You both are clever and smart and share wisdom words now and then, in this forum. Lets keep it that way.
    This isn't about who we like and who we don't like, it is about principles and integrity.
    Let me ask you this, if I disliked Bill, would I not insult him back?
    Call him names?
    I haven't done that, have I?
    I have disagreed with him on things, that is natural, but in this I think he is wrong.
    When he is right, I will support him as I have.


    Quote Posted by prometheus (here)

    I said "I'm ashamed". I didn't say "I feel guilty. That's the point!!!
    I don't feel guilty for something I've not done but I honestly accept that the whitemen of my counttry didn't do it "well".
    Don't distort my words, please.
    I apologise if you think I was distorting you words, that wasn't my intent.
    I am having to answer many posts and PMs too.
    We will NEVER move past the race issue until you guys figure out that NO race can be held accountable for the bad deads of some of the members.
    This is exactly what political correctness was designed to achieve and it has, even here.

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    -----

    I agree, the term "white man" should have the same weighting as any other derogatory remark regarding colour, creed, race etc... The fact that it is used as a general sweeping statement, or figure of speech is wrong. The sooner we stop using such terms in totality the better.
    "Stop getting Bond wrong!" (Alan Partridge)

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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    .........................................
    Last edited by Whitehaze; 28th May 2011 at 16:53.
    In the light of the day the other light is hidden, never the less that other light still exists seen by other eyes.

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  32. Link to Post #38
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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by DevilPigeon (here)
    -----

    I agree, the term "white man" should have the same weighting as any other derogatory remark regarding colour, creed, race etc... The fact that it is used as a general sweeping statement, or figure of speech is wrong. The sooner we stop using such terms in totality the better.
    You really are a devilpigeon.
    Seriously though, we should just see the criminals/dirtbags and NOT the whole group.
    Again, that is the whole point of my thread
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...madness-NOW%21
    Until we stop this madness, we will simply go round and round the damn mulberry bush.
    No thanks.
    I like mulberries, but not that much.

    Quote Posted by Seikou-Kishi (here)
    I think you're right, Sid, to say it is a dangerous notion to suggest we inherit the sins of our forebears
    Excellent, you got it too.
    Take the middle east for example, till we let go of the he did, she did crap, there will be no peace and no security.
    Talking of either with these thoughts and feelings in us is self defeating and guess who wins?
    Again.
    The dirtbags that we say we are against.
    Well, let's stop the madness.
    Who is with me to stop the madness?

    Quote Posted by Meadowlark (here)
    Lord Sidious, I’ve often enjoyed your comments on the forum, although I disagree with your viewpoint on this particular thread.

    I’m glad you are willing to speak your mind and agree you are not usually a troublemaker. But in this case at least, you could have made your point more tactfully. Often how we say something is just as important (if not more important) than the content of what we are saying.

    You’ve made your point that you believed what he said was a racial stereotype, and Bill has addressed your point and supported his statement with evidence.

    If you still disagree with him, you’d make your argument much stronger by saying why you think the evidence doesn’t apply, rather than commanding him to stand by his statements-- not many people like to be ordered to do things and usually won’t respond well to that.

    Like you said, we're all fallible, and it makes things go much more smoothly when we try to admit our mistakes.
    Tactfully is a very subjective term.
    What I call tactfull and what you call that could be very different.
    You may recall that Bill and others have reacted far stronger than I have to people slandering them.
    I wonder, why can they DEMAND an apology but I can't?
    Is there a status difference?
    Is it that some of you readers are reacting to what you THINK I have said and not what I actually did say?
    And please, don't tell me that a fictitious drama is evidence of anything.
    Would you agree that movies are usually based on reality and not reality itself?
    I always stand behind what I say, unless I have made an error, I don't see how that is radical.
    Not that you are saying that, I am just saying that is how my ways are seen.
    Now, the thing is, some of you are taking this as Bill vs Me.
    Why is it that it has to be like that?
    Why can't it be that I am trying to help not just him, but you guys too, to see the error in the thinking here?
    Yes, I was offended, but then I realised Bill delivered to me on a platter an opportunity.
    A healing opportunity.
    We know what has been going on for a little while here about people saying things that others have taken offense to and then demanded apologies for.
    Well, here is the opportunity I present to all of you, seeing as I have to spell it out, none of you realised this.
    The opportunity is to see how the people that slandered some of our members, according to the said members are in some cases, mirrors of the same here.
    Do you not see that Bill has done the same thing?
    And won't acknowledge that?
    Even as he demands the others do and that they apologise?
    Last edited by Lord Sidious; 9th May 2011 at 18:00.

  33. Link to Post #39
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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    I am with you and on this one, lets stop the madness.

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  35. Link to Post #40
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    Default Re:The sensitivity of language and people when describing race-related issues

    Quote Posted by Lord Sidious (here)
    I apologise if you think I was distorting you words, that wasn't my intent.
    Iv'e re-read Bills post, trying really hard to take him the wrong way, but cannot. He was merely stating what we all know, nature and the "wilderness" in particular, in the greatest part, has been tamed or is controlled by man.

    He simply used Australia as an example. He could have pointed his burning messianic finger of accusation at any one of us, or indeed any country or race. I'm just glad he didn't point it at me, don't get me started on what my ancestors got up to, I don't feel It would do much good to apologize now. but two points the Sith has..

    Firstly, we can reflect on what our ancestors did, perhaps learn from it, or perhaps choose to incorporate it into our lives, bring it with us if you like, or we choose to accept what was, what is and what we cannot change and instead, focus on what we can. There need be no guilt, only the guilty need feel guilty. Our actions have ripples, but outside of that, it is not our preview, accept it, let it be and get on with making things better.

    Secondly, if Bill gets a chance to read all this, I hope he apologizes to the dark lord, for the misunderstanding. Life is too short. We are all equally non guilty and guilty by association, it is wrong to single out the herd. Our words are very linear without our expressions and presence, it is all too easy to come across wrong. I think bill should forgive him, have compassion for his quick temper, it gives him strength, it is, after all, only in his nature and nurture to view things through the limited kaleidoscope of the dark side.

    PS: Sid, your own words twisted out of context and used as ammunition against you: "Everyone makes mistakes, me, you, Bill, all of us."

    PPS: I too agree with the sentiment of Seikou Kishi's first post. Lets move on and be the change.

    Peace, Calm, Unity, Love…. N

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