+ Reply to Thread
Page 7 of 15 FirstFirst 1 7 15 LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 294

Thread: Chemtrails don't exist

  1. Link to Post #121
    Great Britain Avalon Member Fred259's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Posts
    815
    Thanks
    1,702
    Thanked 1,322 times in 509 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    Quote Posted by chancy (here)
    Hello Fred259: It's interesting that you are trying to tell everyone including myself that I am being deceived BUT you are telling everyone on this forum and who looks at this forum that a contrail is a CHEMTRAIL.
    No. I am not saying anything of the sort.

    What I am saying is that what comes out of the rear of an engine is essentially water, which will form a contrail, should the atmospheric conditions in the atmosphere permit.

    I am also saying that aircraft have no means or ability to spray substances from high altitude. Therefore any trails that you may see in the skies are perfectly normal. Don’t worry about them.

    Quote They are competely different and it is like talking about a potato to a carrot. It's NOT "a potato is a potato" scenario.
    As I told you I am not trying to convince you that there are CHEMTRAILS because you have your opinion just as I and all the others that know there are CHEMTRAILS are saying a "potato is a carrot" from your perspective.
    Indeed they are. I agree,

    What you think is a chemtrail has probably come form an engine which is producing circa 80,000lbs of trust, thus you have classed this trail as a chemtrail in your mind.

    What you say is a contrail has probably come from an aircraft producing 20,000lbs of thrust.

    The two are both the same. Perhaps this is where the confusion exists.

    Quote It's interesting how someone with so much experience is CLOSED MINDED. I thought this forum was for people that are OPEN MINDED and want to look at other perspectives and try to find out the truth? It appears that even I was wrong about that!
    Your not wrong, your quite right to question things. I respect you for that however Chancy it’s not possible to bend a steel bar regardless how open minded you may be…

    Quote I could tell you hundreds of examples of perspectives that I believe are wrong and you could do the same BUT when it comes right down to it there are is always truth and always deception. Just so happens you are trying to tell me that I am deceived because I have seen CHEMTRAILS and know that it's possible to spray chemicals from jets.
    We discussed in #132 why this is not even remotely possible from an engineering prospective. I suggest you go over that post again.

    Further at 18.00GMT 12.00 EST today something like 60,000 aircraft are operating at the very very least in Europe and the US. If you think that any of these aircraft are engaged in spraying an innocent human population then if it were happenings as I suggested in post132 it would be tantamount to an act of war and the military would have the situation in hand.

    Quote Well Fred259 just as you won't change your mind...I will not change my mind since I have seen and experience CHEMTRAILS first hand.
    Have you… Where?

    Quote No wonder this thread is getting old....Fred259 you have never seen a CHEMTRAIL. I have never seen a albino rhino. That doesn't mean there isn't one.
    Its all getting rather silly Chancy…

    Quote Just because you tell me with conviction there is not CHEMTRAILS doesn't mean there isn't any.
    As above.
    Quote Sounds like the mainstream news and government talking....."If I say it's so then it is so"! I don't buy this reasoning.
    Lol… lets leave the media out of this. Engineering science is sound and has proven to be so over many decades.

    Sometimes Chancy you have to put your trust in others,( but not necessarily me), however I do wonder when you go to the dentist and she gives you an anesthetic do you question the dentist on the quality of the anesthetic or what she is doing?

    Quote Remember I am not trying to convince you since only you can convince yourself. Just remember when you have 6 jet aircraft making criss crosses in the air they must be playing tick tack toe....Right?!?! From a nice brilliant clear blue sky to a cloudy sky in less than an hour as soon as these jets finish their tick tack toe game. What a game!
    This tic tak toe expression is not used in the UK so it tells me you are in the US, I would even go as far and say East Coast Unites States. Its midday traffic tic tak toeing north south and out to the west.

    I explained lateral separation in post 127.The video provides an explanation of how it’s done.

    Quote Remember someone is paying for this extremely huge game of tick tack toe everyday!! Ah shucks it's the tax payer! No corporation would be stupid enough to spend money playing tick tack toe most days in the air.
    I think you will find they are just normal everyday airlines Clancy. If you click on this link some but not all of the flights are included. Put your mouse over the aircraft and it will give you the flight number and where it’s going.

    http://planefinder.net/

    Quote I know Fred259 you are going to tell me again this is normal weather occurrences and these jets are just pleasure aircraft enjoying a nice game of tick tack toe! I say WRONG!!!
    Yes I would agree. The word normal doesn’t apply to the weather occurrences as you put it.

    It’s nothing to do with the weather it relates to humidity and temperature. Both are changing constantly. Normality doesn’t apply, its nature my friend.

    Don’t worry about them Clancy they are doing no harm…
    Last edited by Paul; 14th May 2011 at 07:46. Reason: fix quote'ing

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Fred259 For This Post:

    DoubleHelix (13th May 2011)

  3. Link to Post #122
    Australia Avalon Member DoubleHelix's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th May 2010
    Location
    High in the mountains of BC, Canada
    Age
    27
    Posts
    501
    Thanks
    8,747
    Thanked 2,452 times in 437 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    It appears Fred259 has got an answer for everything we seem to throw at him! I value your dedication and input Fred, there are a lot of misconceptions about this phenomenon.

    I do however believe that Chemtrails exist.. but ill put my personal opinion aside.

    I'd like to take this opportunity to ask if there's anybody on this forum that can come up with with some actual evidence, undeniable proof or witness testimonies that stand up to scrutiny!

    Until then we'll continue to go round in circles folks.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DoubleHelix For This Post:

    Fred259 (13th May 2011), gigha (13th May 2011)

  5. Link to Post #123
    Canada Avalon Member gigha's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Location
    Ontario
    Age
    51
    Posts
    373
    Thanks
    6,613
    Thanked 1,280 times in 309 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    All i know is that every day since i joined Avalon i drive to work looking at the sky.
    Not just looking for chemtrails or contrails, still don't know what to believe either.
    But Fred259 is very convincing in his way. Thanks all. xx gigha
    What if all that you know.. is only half . of what you know . /

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to gigha For This Post:

    DoubleHelix (13th May 2011)

  7. Link to Post #124
    Avalon Member
    Join Date
    17th December 2010
    Posts
    303
    Thanks
    281
    Thanked 1,055 times in 247 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    [QUOTE=Fred259;217093][QUOTE=chancy;217047]

    Quote Hello Fred259: It's interesting that you are trying to tell everyone including myself that I am being deceived BUT you are telling everyone on this forum and who looks at this forum that a contrail is a CHEMTRAIL.
    No. I am not saying anything of the sort.
    What I am saying is that what comes out of the rear of an engine is essentially water, which will form a contrail, should the atmospheric conditions in the atmosphere permit.
    I am also saying that aircraft have no means or ability to spray substances from high altitude. Therefore any trails that you may see in the skies are perfectly normal. Don’t worry about them.

    Actually you are doing this in almost every post you have typed in this thread. You are doing this by saying that there is no such thing as chemtrails. Since I say there is CHEMTRAILS you are telling everyone that there are no chemtrails. Once you ad both arguments together a CHEMTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL WHICH HAPPENS TO HAVE CHEMICAL MIXED WITH IT. See how they are one in the same but not all jets as you and I know are spraying chemicals with their contrails. There are jets spraying CHEMTRAILS which make them one in the same on those particular jets.




    Quote The two are both the same. Perhaps this is where the confusion exists.

    Fred259 I have to agree with you on this point because on the jets spraying chemicals they are both the same. There is NO CONFUSION AT ALL. You just proved that you know what I am talking about!




    Quote It's interesting how someone with so much experience is CLOSED MINDED. I thought this forum was for people that are OPEN MINDED and want to look at other perspectives and try to find out the truth? It appears that even I was wrong about that!
    Your not wrong, your quite right to question things. I respect you for that however Chancy it’s not possible to bend a steel bar regardless how open minded you may be…

    Actually Fred259 questioning things is important for everyone on this planet unfortunately the majority just go about life and accept everything. When gas goes up they just smile and say"I'm glad the price went up so we can still drive!" I say excellent for all these people. You are trying to act dumb to me now Fred259 and I think it's time for you to act your age. It is possible to bend a steel bar and I do it all the time. I take a torch and heat it and then can bend any size of bar I choose. IF I don't want to use heat I use a bending machine. See Fred259 your analogy is getting annoying.




    Quote I could tell you hundreds of examples of perspectives that I believe are wrong and you could do the same BUT when it comes right down to it there are is always truth and always deception. Just so happens you are trying to tell me that I am deceived because I have seen CHEMTRAILS and know that it's possible to spray chemicals from jets.
    We discussed in #132 why this is not even remotely possible from an engineering prospective. I suggest you go over that post again.

    From your point of view. From the posts that I gave you in this thread I already proved my point. I know you never read them! I can tell by your answers. Remember I am not trying to convince you that CHEMTRAILS are REAL. I already know they are and so do hundreds of thousands of other people. It's people like yourself that are trying to change my mind and your science is flawed in the sense that you are talking about contrails with no chemicals and I am talking about contrails with chemicals injected into them that makes CHEMTRAILS. By the way it is possible to spray chemicals from a jet. You just never read my posts! Caught you again sluffing Fred259.




    Quote Well Fred259 just as you won't change your mind...I will not change my mind since I have seen and experience CHEMTRAILS first hand.
    Have you… Where?

    Well Fred259 if you had read my posts you would know WHERE!?!?!
    It's amazing that I have to read all your posts that are quite frankly getting boring and you didn't read mine which possibly would be boring to you! Remember I am not trying to change your mind!
    I find it getting really offensive that you expect everyone including myself to read your post and you never have the respect to read mine. Again to answer your question about where. In Canada and the US. 6 jets playing tick tack toe over Great Falls. It's really too bad I didn't have a camera since they were directly about me going past and it was quite amazing for a guy who used to not believe this type of thing could even remotely be possible. I can tell you that it is possible and for what reason I cannot tell you BUT it is happening!



    Quote No wonder this thread is getting old....Fred259 you have never seen a CHEMTRAIL. I have never seen a albino rhino. That doesn't mean there isn't one.
    Its all getting rather silly Chancy…

    Fred259 I have been telling you the same thing since I first wrote in this thread! Until you actually see a chemtrail then how can you say I am lying?!?! How can you actually tell other people that they are lunatics for believing in CHEMTRAILS when you don't even know anything about CHEMTRAILS since you have never seen even one?
    To be an expert you need to know both sides of the story and Fred259 you only know one side of the story and that's about contrails. Remember the albino rhino.....until I see an albino rhino I have to say it's possible but I just haven't seen one yet.....




    Quote Just because you tell me with conviction there is not CHEMTRAILS doesn't mean there isn't any.
    As above.
    Quote Sounds like the mainstream news and government talking....."If I say it's so then it is so"! I don't buy this reasoning.
    Lol… lets leave the media out of this. Engineering science is sound and has proven to be so over many decades.
    Sometimes Chancy you have to put your trust in others,( but not necessarily me), however I do wonder when you go to the dentist and she gives you an anesthetic do you question the dentist on the quality of the anesthetic or what she is doing?

    Fred259 you should take your own advice and put your trust in others! See it works both ways! I wasn't a believer in CHEMTRAILS but after being sceptical while doing the research I became a believer. Actually when I go to the dentist it's a HE and no they do no use anesthetic. However enough about me remember we are talking about not trying to get you to be a believer in CHEMTRAILS. You have been very outspoken on one side of the fence. Unfortunately you have admitted very eloquently that you have no knowledge of CHEMTRAILS.therefore you cannot actually talk about them with any authority. As for myself I have a very good knowledge of contrails and CHEMTRAILS. I guess that makes me an authority on them since I know both sciences.




    Quote Remember I am not trying to convince you since only you can convince yourself. Just remember when you have 6 jet aircraft making criss crosses in the air they must be playing tick tack toe....Right?!?! From a nice brilliant clear blue sky to a cloudy sky in less than an hour as soon as these jets finish their tick tack toe game. What a game!
    This tic tak toe expression is not used in the UK so it tells me you are in the US, I would even go as far and say East Coast Unites States. Its midday traffic tic tak toeing north south and out to the west.

    IT's really quite amazing when you openingly admit that you are full of it! How I know this is because I have read every word you have written here where you have NOT read probably nothing of mine. I am NOT IN THE US and I am NOT ON THE EAST COAST. IF you would have read my posts you would already know this!
    Tic tac toe is a game and I don't think you would like it! It's being played in the skies of North America everyday with consequences that we as North Americans hopefully won't find out for a long long time.




    Quote I know Fred259 you are going to tell me again this is normal weather occurrences and these jets are just pleasure aircraft enjoying a nice game of tick tack toe! I say WRONG!!!
    Yes I would agree. The word normal doesn’t apply to the weather occurrences as you put it.
    It’s nothing to do with the weather it relates to humidity and temperature. Both are changing constantly. Normality doesn’t apply, its nature my friend.
    Don’t worry about them Clancy they are doing no harm…

    Fred259 CHEMTRAILS are NOT NORMAL. Why do you think we are having this conversation. I really have NO INTEREST in talking to a closed minded person such as yourself since I am way too busy for that. Remember I am not trying to convince you that CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL
    Regards,
    chancy
    Last edited by Paul; 14th May 2011 at 08:03. Reason: tried trimming and fixing quotes - gave up

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to chancy For This Post:

    Fred259 (13th May 2011)

  9. Link to Post #125
    Great Britain Avalon Member Fred259's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Posts
    815
    Thanks
    1,702
    Thanked 1,322 times in 509 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    [QUOTE=chancy;217538][QUOTE=Fred259;217093][QUOTE=chancy;217047]

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Hello Fred259:
    Actually you are doing this in almost every post you have typed in this thread.
    What I am doing is sharing my knowledge and experience on this subject.Im glad you think it’s consistent. Further I have provided references so you to can be informed. Is that not what Avalon is about?
    Quote You are doing this by saying that there is no such thing as chemtrails.
    Yes, Im saying it’s an attack on the truth and alternative media to make those who are alternative thinkers if I can put it like that look stupid.

    Those responsible for this abomination control the media, but they have no control over forums like this and consequently they just feed the whole alternative movement with rubbish.

    Quote Since I say there is CHEMTRAILS you are telling everyone that there are no chemtrails. . See how they are one in the same but not all jets as you and I know are spraying chemicals with their contrails.
    No they are not one in the same.

    We have dealt with Chancy.

    We discussed that if the atmosphere at 28,000 feet has 80% relative humidity no contrail will form. Immediately above at 30,000 feet another aircraft is flying and I mean just that immediately above, but NOW the atmosphere has 100% relative humidity a contrail WILL form.

    If two aircraft are flying at 30,000feet both where the relative humidity is 100% both will produce contrails. If one contrail is bigger than the other, you scratch your head Chancy and say Ah,….now that’s because one is chemtrailing and the other isn’t. This is where they are tricking you. Don’t be tricked.

    In reality I think you will find that the first contrail will perhaps be from a smaller aircrafts lets say a B737 with 25,000lb thrust engines for example and the second contrail will be from a larger aircraft perhaps a B777 with 115,000lb thrust engines.

    Two B737 with 25,000lb engines means two small contrails
    Two B777 with 115,000lb engines means two large contrails.(that you call chemtrails)

    Small aircraft with small engines and a Large aircraft with large engines mix together all day everyday. You think that the smaller contrails are normal, and the large contrails aren’t, so they must be chemtrails. This is wrong. They are both contrails, one big one small.

    It must be obvious that if you increase the power four fold the contrail is going to be four times bigger..

    Quote Once you ad both arguments together a CHEMTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL WHICH HAPPENS TO HAVE CHEMICAL MIXED WITH IT
    No. The problem is you refuse to accept that nature science and the fragile state of the atmosphere is key. You point blankly just ignore this, and therefore this is the problem.

    With that out of the way in your mind you now fabricate all manner of half stories so that it fits your world. This is what these criminals have done to you, which is why I call you a victim. It’s not your fault.

    Turning to your point. Its impossible Chancy for chemicals to be mixed with contrails. First if this where happening the crew would know and you just have to accept that as fact.

    Secondly the temperatures in the engine are close to 2,000degreesC, pressures at 150lbs/sq inch and the gas flow around 2,500 feet per second or 1,480mph twice the speed of a rifle bullet. Its quite impossible for any of what you suggest to happen.

    In think its time now Chancy for you to go to your local public library and obtain a book on meteorology. Study up how clouds are formed, and with this knowledge you will then understand how contrails are formed. If on the other hand you refuse to accept that nature plays a critical role then you will remain confused. I strongly urge you to do this.

    In the meantime don’t worry Chancy, I do agree with you our government’s aren’t all wonderful but equally its importance to keep things in prospective.

  10. Link to Post #126
    Avalon Member
    Join Date
    17th December 2010
    Posts
    303
    Thanks
    281
    Thanked 1,055 times in 247 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    Quote Once you ad both arguments together a CHEMTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL WHICH HAPPENS TO HAVE CHEMICAL MIXED WITH IT
    No. The problem is you refuse to accept that nature science and the fragile state of the atmosphere is key. You point blankly just ignore this, and therefore this is the problem.
    With that out of the way in your mind you now fabricate all manner of half stories so that it fits your world. This is what these criminals have done to you, which is why I call you a victim. It’s not your fault.
    Turning to your point. Its impossible Chancy for chemicals to be mixed with contrails. First if this where happening the crew would know and you just have to accept that as fact.

    Fred259, Still pushing the weather eh? Oh ya you are NOT talking about the weather and the atmosphere....Everytime you write your story you tell me the same thing. I am sure you never read or looked at my posts. If you had you would have a much better understanding of CHEMTRAILS.
    By the way I have not refuted any science. I am a believer in science and you just continually put words in my mouth for me. Fred259 you really don't have to do that....I am very good at speaking myself! As for the atmosphere you have told me quite a few times it's NOT about the atmosphere and or weather. I say it is definitely about the atmosphere and weather.....
    If you would have read my posts you would have seen it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO MIX CHEMICALS WITH CONTRAILS. From the first time I answered your thread I knew you had no idea about what we are talking about. You continually prove it by each post. Fred259 it's time to stop the insults and realize that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to CHEMTRAILS for they are REAL and no one has deceived me and the ptb did not manipulate me. I personally think they have gotten to yourself by your rediculous claims to know that CHEMTRAILS are not happening.
    I'm not sure whether your expertise is weather or aircraft. ?? What I am sure of it that you are going around in circles and therefore you could almost make a good CHEMTRAIL pilot for they go back and forth in the early hours of the morning.
    To answer you questions from the above post I do believe that the crew does know they are spraying some form of chemical(s). I do believe they are getting paid extremely well for their service so why not do it?!




    In think its time now Chancy for you to go to your local public library and obtain a book on meteorology. Study up how clouds are formed, and with this knowledge you will then understand how contrails are formed. If on the other hand you refuse to accept that nature plays a critical role then you will remain confused. I strongly urge you to do this.

    Fred259 why would you lead me to the public library with the assumption that I don't know about weather and the atmoshere?!?! Remember you have never read any of my posts from the assumptions that you make about me! I can tell you I know as much about this subject as you do and more since I also know about CHEMTRAILS which you refute to be a figment of everyones imaginations.
    Remember I am not trying to convince you that CHEMTRAILS ARE REAL!
    Regards,
    chancy
    PS It's time you should actually go back and read my posts. They may help you to understand the concept of CHEMTRAILS.

  11. Link to Post #127
    Avalon Member blufire's Avatar
    Join Date
    22nd January 2011
    Posts
    1,151
    Thanks
    2,057
    Thanked 5,583 times in 1,007 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    I deleted this post . . . because what's the point.
    Last edited by blufire; 14th May 2011 at 19:30.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to blufire For This Post:

    Fred259 (14th May 2011)

  13. Link to Post #128
    Avalon Member Lefty Dave's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th June 2010
    Age
    64
    Posts
    427
    Thanks
    3,377
    Thanked 1,729 times in 327 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    Quote Posted by fred259 (here)
    john what they want to do is turn you into a moron by feeding you all this rubbish.

    You know don’t you that some real nasty bastards exist in this world. You only need to go down to london and visit the tavistock institute and see some of the dark practices that emanate from that organisation.

    The next concept you must accept is that they are trying to dumb you down. Clearly this is not something that anyone would want. That being the case its best you treat most things you read and listen to on the web as highly suspect.

    If you do this your mind and understanding will be free from those who seek to control you. To support this and the content of this thread i did this afternoon post up the hm government commons select committee report into geo engineering. It’s featured one above in post five.

    The document clearly states that the committee is looking at all geoengineering options and that above all the public would be consulted and would have input into the outcome. It’s just a consultative document.

    No decision has been made and probably given the length of time these things take will be in the order eight to ten years before any decision is made. That being the case its not really possible is it that they were geoengineering or chemtrailing over the ne of england today.

    So what was the problem today. Look at the weather chart and you will see that high pressure dominates the whole of the uk and most of continental europe at this time and this is the reason these jet trails are in the skies.

    In your post you wonder if the weather will make a turn for the worst, no they will be gone by 22.00 tonight and you will see the stars all night. It will be the same tomorrow and perhaps for a week or so. When the high pressure system moves the atmosphere will change and you won’t see any trails just as it was last week.

    John aircraft have no means whatsoever of spraying chemicals from the air, so please stop believing this.

    I encourage you to look into this rather than believing everything you read on websites. If you choose not to sadly you are a victim of deception from the criminals in tavistock square.
    some people just cant handle the truth

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Lefty Dave For This Post:

    Fred259 (14th May 2011)

  15. Link to Post #129
    Avalon Member THIRDEYE's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th May 2010
    Posts
    213
    Thanks
    803
    Thanked 487 times in 108 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    fred with no disrespect,i totally dis agree with you on the chemtrails,ive wacthed the organite chembusters in action ,my point is how can organite dissapate a chemtrail and not com trail,just food for thought...love light and abundance fred29....thirdeye....

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to THIRDEYE For This Post:

    Fred259 (14th May 2011)

  17. Link to Post #130
    France Deactivated
    Join Date
    21st January 2011
    Location
    Paris
    Age
    51
    Posts
    359
    Thanks
    1,134
    Thanked 1,429 times in 288 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    Quote Posted by Fred259 (here)

    It matters not to me if they believe it or not. I just don’t like to see people being fooled especially by the criminals…
    By the amount of time and effort you are dedicating trying to convince the people here
    that chem trails do not exist, I would say your statement above is wrong.

    Regards
    Ace
    The lie is different at every level...........

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ace For This Post:

    dan i el (14th May 2011), Fred259 (14th May 2011)

  19. Link to Post #131
    Avalon Member observer's Avatar
    Join Date
    20th March 2010
    Location
    Within a few kilometers of Avalon
    Age
    66
    Posts
    964
    Thanks
    1,653
    Thanked 3,093 times in 742 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    Quote Posted by DoubleHelix (here)
    It appears Fred259 has got an answer for everything we seem to throw at him! I value your dedication and input Fred, there are a lot of misconceptions about this phenomenon.

    I do however believe that Chemtrails exist.. but ill put my personal opinion aside.

    I'd like to take this opportunity to ask if there's anybody on this forum that can come up with with some actual evidence, undeniable proof or witness testimonies that stand up to scrutiny!

    Until then we'll continue to go round in circles folks.
    DoubleHelix,

    Aside from the evidence I posted in the original thread (before the threads were separated) and found at the link posted in this comment:
    Quote Posted by observer (here)
    [....snip]
    Here is the most telling evidence of all. This is a link to the Library of Congress printing of House Bill number H.R. 2977. Please take note of Section 7, 2(B)(ii):
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH:

    I welcome an explanation as to why a bill introduced into the House of Representatives of the United States mentions CHEMTRAILS as a weapon, if (in fact) there is no such 'weapon' existing.

    This is the 'smoking gun'.... so to speak

    CAUTION: Our ideologies may appear larger than they actually are....

    PLEASE, DON'T FEED THE REPTOIDS

    Wishing everyone Love.... for eternity....

  20. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to observer For This Post:

    blufire (14th May 2011), dan i el (14th May 2011), DoubleHelix (14th May 2011), Fred259 (14th May 2011), heyokah (14th May 2011), Lord Sidious (14th May 2011), mondaze (14th May 2011)

  21. Link to Post #132
    Canada Avalon Member Kerrigan's Avatar
    Join Date
    23rd April 2011
    Location
    Montreal, QC
    Age
    25
    Posts
    185
    Thanks
    1,760
    Thanked 598 times in 146 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    I'd like to add my experiences with what I believe is chemtrails.

    I work in an 10th floor office, with windows all around me. Looking outside is beautiful, I see from my desk the Montréal stadium and the magnificent Mount Royal. On sunny days, I've been really concern by lingering trails in the skies.

    There is a flying road of commercial planes that passes right by window. All the commercial planes leave no trails, or trails that linger max 1min. They always passes by the same flying road.

    However, there are other types of planes, that looks like commercial planes, except they are all white. Their flying road is irregular, creating X and parallel lines of lingering trails. Those trails leave a thick, white cloud that does not disperse. I see them from my desk, and observe what they become with time.

    After 2 hours, the trail is larger, less thick, and comes down in altitude. The more it falls, the more foggy it looks. It seems to suspend in the air, gradually enlarging with time. And after 4 hours, the trails are not visible, only a curtain of foggy, gray covers the sky, at low altitude.

    The two pass days, Thursday and Friday have been particularly intense. I've seen white planes, with no trails, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they start creating lingering trails.

    I have read this thread trying to convince myself that these are normal trails. When Fred said that humidity is a big factor to consider, I went and check it for Montréal yesterday.

    Quote At or close to 100% relative humidity at altitude cloud and contrails will form.
    For both days, the humidity was 40% and less... the sky was clear in the morning around 8, and at 2pm, it was almost completely and uniformly gray, except small spots. I am in a learning process, I might be wrong, of course, but...

    I still do believe that chemtrails exist and that Montreal is spread regularly.
    "Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you; and unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you." - the Crystal Method

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kerrigan For This Post:

    Fred259 (14th May 2011), heyokah (15th May 2011)

  23. Link to Post #133
    Great Britain Avalon Member Fred259's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Posts
    815
    Thanks
    1,702
    Thanked 1,322 times in 509 posts

    Default Re: David Icke,Alex Jones,Stewart Swerdlow - Chemtrails,bloody everywhere!!

    [QUOTE=Fred259;218835][QUOTE=Fred259;218832][QUOTE=Fred259;218821][QUOTE]
    Quote Posted by blufire (here)
    Please read my post #43 in this thread and I also have several posts in Icecold’s thread on chemtrails.
    I have seen:

    Clear blue skies turn into complete overcast skies from either “grid pattern” sprays or on windy days perfectly spaced parallel sprays blend together causing complete overcast sky. This happens within a matter of a couple hours. I have sat outside and watched the complete procedure. Start to finish . . . . there is no denying what is happening. Contrails DO NOT or have they ever done this.
    Fine. I don’t agree, but respect your point of view.

    You obviously haven’t read any of the documents I enclosed…but no worries.
    Quote I have watched the “spray” stop as the plane turns and lines up for the next pass and I have watched as that plane gets into position the spray or trail resumes.
    Again. I explained that in details if you recall.
    Quote There have been at least three occasions that I have witnessed the “debris” that has fallen from the “chemtrail clouds”. All three occasions the wind was fairly still and they had to spray in the grid pattern and the debris was able to settle all over my equipment, outbuildings and even ponds.
    Yes I remember your post. You said you had witnessed this happening on three occasions over four years.

    If you remember I said that this was due to the effects of the Hadley Cell, and I did on at least two occasion go to Google and find an example of this and posted it up with an explanation for your exclusive benefit. It only occurs under intense high pressure.

    You seem to think its all rubbish despite the Wicki and NASA documents explaining the effects of Hadley Cell circulation. What more can I do?
    Quote I think they spray different components at different times. Sometimes the “blended clouds” look wispy and somewhat thin and other times they are thick and almost have a “grayish cotton ball” look.

    I have seen the debris or dust . . . . . swept some up and examined it.
    We dealt with all this Blufire. Again I provided the documents and my own covering explanation, if you choose not to believe it I understand.
    Quote I can’t say I have become ill or any of my livestock.
    Good Blufire, at least we agree on that. I say again they are just contrails or ice crystals so yes they wont damage your health.

    Quote I have witnessed though my crops not growing well and especially heirloom and non-gmo plants. I have most definitely had to correct the ph balance and mineral levels in my soils more often . . . sometimes a couple of times in the same growing season Related?? Can’t really say, but common sense says “something” is causing these immediate soil problems and the only thing that is different is the spraying.
    Ahh, now this is not good, because now something is damaging your crops, and yields will be down. With the yields down the price will go down won’t it.

    You have two choices. You can post up here and try and make me look a fool or you can listen up.

    I have provided you with all the information required to determine that what you see in the skies over Kansas is indeed harmless. You point blank refuse to accept this.

    Despite all the information provided, you still insist that these trails are chemtrails and they may be damaging your crops. Defiantly not. Ice crystals at 36,000 don’t damage crops. Under the circumstances call your local Agri-chemist or specialist and ask them why it’s been necessary to correct the ph balance and mineral levels. Something is wrong Blufire that you put down to chemtrails. Believe me darling its not. So please just call the specialist and they will discuss your ph problems. Hopefully they will also provide you with a solution. When all is well and the yields are up again maybe you might just take a look at those documents I sent.
    Quote And fred before you say it is “crop dusting” let me nip that one in the bud right now. When they spray crops for weeds (herbicides) or pests (pesticide) . . .. it STINKS. I just a couple days ago had a few words with the county agent because of spraying in the wheat fields not far from my organic fields. The stuff floated right on over onto my land.
    I agree it stinks, Ive seen crop dusters working in Africa.
    Quote Many times as I sit and watch the procedure I keep watching the western to south western skyline which is where our weather comes from and these “overcast skies” are ONLY where the planes have sprayed.
    We discussed this Blufire.

    This makes me sad, overcast skies are ONLY where planes have sprayed you say.

    I agree aircraft flying east west or routing into Denver will cause this, you insist its spraying, but what can I say. Have you ever considered that overcast skies from the SW may be due to weather fronts, you did say that’s where the weather comes from, which Yes I would agree with. I think you will find that’s what they are.

    I do agree though and we discussed this that if the atmospheric conditions are such by mid afternoon your skies will be covered.
    [QUOTE]
    Quote Fred has methodically torn my posts to shreds and given these long drawn out, long winded explanations on why I must be totally insane on what I have personally witnessed and experienced.
    I think you are being a bit naughty now Blufire, Im not tearing your post to shreds or calling you insane. I’m sharing with you my professional knowledge and experience, and over a few posts have also provided you with the material for you to look into this.

    It makes no difference to me, but it would seem it does with you given you now say your yields are down. You have the information make of it as you will.
    Quote These posts are mostly from googled, cut and pasted unrelated, subterfuge.
    Yes, I have used all available resources available to me, what’s wrong with that. I don’t carry an image of the Hadley cell around in my back pocket so if I can find a similar image on the Internet that helps explain things better what’s wrong with that.( Remember the document came from NASA, but No No No they are wrong as well I suppose)
    Quote Dust and sand from New Mexico my steadily growing ass.
    Oh dear Blufire… come on now that's not very ladylike….I have to tell you that your going to be eating a very big humble pie,but it dosnt bother me, provided we can get to the bottom of your concerns that’s all that matters.

    Name:  hadley cell 3.jpg
Views: 393
Size:  13.4 KB

    Kansas is 37N to 40N. Can you not see how this will reach you in Kansas. I know the diagram says 30N, but honestly that’s only 420 miles. This is your problem darling…this is what’s causing the sand and dust on the machinery….

    LOOK at the left hand corner in the above picture, what does it say? Cool dry air Descending right onto your farm!!! Where from? Mexico, Panama, the equator ....it explains it in the diagram Bluefire, do you seriously think I'm making this up!

    Click image for larger version

Name:	3d_hadley_md_v3.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	59.7 KB
ID:	7405

    Hadley Cell
    Situated between the equator and 30 degrees North.
    The problems you are experiencing have without question come from the Hadley cell and the circular flow of air under intense high pressure. Here are the documents one final time. Here is also the Diagram that (yes I goggled) so you can follow it through and see how this air circulates.

    I also suggested you contact your local university perhaps, they might be able to reassure you. Obviously you didn’t do that. So just for you here are the details of the people who will defiantly be able to help you, I suggest you write to them and explain the problem. You can tell them you have this goof ass who says it’s the “Hadley Cell” and see what they say. Write to

    NOAA/ National Weather Service,
    5200 Auth Road,
    Camp Springs,
    Maryland 20746


    These documents explain Hadley Cell. If you read them they explain the circulation of air around the Intertropical convergence zone( ITCZ)

    http://whyfiles.org/174earth_observe/4.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell

    http://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/glos...=Hadley%20Cell

    PS. YOU said you watched the weather from the South West…. This is it.Kansas is really part of the ITCZ. It doesn’t just stop dead at 30N its nature, it comes and goes…..

    Quote Fred is the one who is fear based and is in full blown denial. It is difficult especially with someone as controlled and methodical and black and white as Fred to see what is bashing you right up side the head. He is not trying to convince us . . . . sadly he is trying to convince himself.
    I’m not sure what you mean here Blufire. No I don’t have any fear from these trails. Controlled no this is not happening. I have received a professional training though, maybe you call that controlled. I do agree with you about the black and white, its either happening or its not, so I urge you to read up on the atmosphere and this will explain everything for you.

    Yea that Fred is such a bad bad guy, he’s a government agent, works for Rothschild as well… Blufire just as you know your farmland and your businesses like the back of your hand why do you assume that equally I shouldn’t know my business or profession equally as well.. I told you in the pm, following your post that I have been flying for thirty four years eleven years as a navigator in the air force and twenty three years in commercial aviation as a first officer and captain. Just as you know your farm and machinery like the back of your hand please accept that like you I also know my profession like the back of my hand. I’m extending my knowledge with you and the forum.

    Let’s wait and see what you get back from NOAA. In the meantime if you read the documents I think you will find that everything I have said and provided you with to be truthful.

    It’s kind of important that you reach a conclusion here Blufire because I hate to say that these trails are not going to be going away.

    The bottom line is that in your very first post you said that in the past you never believed in those chemtrails but now you do , and this drives home to me that these criminals who seek to control our minds use very powerful methods. They have changed your way of thinking, so I would class you as a victim.

    Take Care..
    Last edited by Fred259; 14th May 2011 at 20:34.

  24. Link to Post #134
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    8,430
    Thanks
    11,547
    Thanked 56,796 times in 7,315 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    I've directly witnessed dumbbell sprayers and what appears to be a holographic cover on them.

    My photographs did not agree with the visuals. Visually they were boeing, etc. Eyeball said ---the closest one was a dumbbell sprayer. ...it was mothering HUGE. And close.

    The images were taken and the chemtrails were VERY low in the sky, on a hot summer day. 5000 ft. Max. They stayed for hours.

    I've also had direct experience with a seemingly PERSONALLY delivered chemtrail. (general note:long story, not fit for this forum- and no I won't tell you if you ask in a PM)

    I heard no aircraft and it was right over my house, the only house in the area..AND the chemtrail was obviously very low in the sky... two hours later it was still there. slowly dispersing.

    So don't talk to me about them being the result of contrails, modern craft and modern designs.

    Not. A. Freaking. Chance.
    Last edited by Carmody; 14th May 2011 at 21:00.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  25. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    Fred259 (14th May 2011), Lefty Dave (16th May 2011), naochan (19th May 2011)

  26. Link to Post #135
    Scotland Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    16th February 2011
    Age
    31
    Posts
    168
    Thanks
    182
    Thanked 370 times in 106 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    Well Fred259, I think I'm with you on this one, I too am in major doubt about these alleged chemtrails. I think it is only a atmospheric effect, depending on how cold and how much wind it is up there, depends on how long the chemtrails last, its basic high school science. The main two chemicals that are the supposed to be the evidence for chemtrails are Aluminium and Barium. Now my father used to work in the aluminium industry and I remember him saying that aluminium is the most abundant metal on this earth and you can find it almost everywhere, which got me thinking if it so abundant, then that must mean that we can find it in the the air and if we can find it in the air then that means we can find it rain water. Luckily I found a site that states this fact.

    World Health Organisation; Aluminium in drinking water.

    Aluminium in its natural particle state is considered harmless to humans(again we find it everywhere), in fact most antiperspirants use aluminium as key ingredient. However aluminium dust(which looks like a dark silver powder) is another story and this can cause lung damage.

    As for Barium, this blog expalins a reason why it was found in that test http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

    However I will not deny that there is cloud seeding programs happening and crop spraying.

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to linz2d For This Post:

    Fred259 (14th May 2011)

  28. Link to Post #136
    United States Administrator Paul's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    66
    Posts
    15,523
    Thanks
    9,249
    Thanked 47,139 times in 9,337 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    Let me give you an example of how this debate looks to me, by using an analogy with something I know.

    I have been a professional in the computer business, in one form or another, since the early 1970's. I have worked with an amazing variety of hardware and software, and conceived, designed, created, built, owned, operated and maintained quite a bit of hardware and software myself.

    I can honestly say I have never seen a position tracking location device or program. I have never seen a mechanism that (to my certain knowledge) tracks a persons day-by-day, hour-by-hour movements over time. I am willing to believe that there are specialized ways of doing this, such as Predator drones, GPS locators that could be surreptitiously attached to my car, and private detectives that could be hired to sneak around and follow my daily activity. There may well even be a satellite overhead that can identify and track the position of my old car, anytime it is visible from the sky. But these are special purpose and in limited use; they are too costly for tracking millions of people.

    So far what I have written is (more or less) true.

    Now lets say I become convinced that the claims that some smart phones (e.g. the iPhone) can track the movements over a long time of millions of people are a GIANT HOAX, that those claims are FEAR MONGERING, intended to further weaken and confuse us, and to make anyone who falls for the hoax look like a fool to the average person, thus discrediting in the eyes of most people any such websites, such as Project Avalon, that traffic in such (in my view) NONSENSE.

    I could become a member of such a website, and proceed to actively rebut any poster claiming that their iPhone pr other smart phone was tracking them. I could dump reams of material such as computer manuals and tutorials onto such threads, explaining the inner workings of computers on which I have become an expert over time. If someone posted a picture of the inside of their iPhone with an arrow pointing to something they said was the "tracking chip", I could patiently explain, with parts lists and circuit diagrams, that no, that was the hand held orientation sensor that told the phone when to flip the video image sideways. I could assert (truthfully!) that I have NEVER seen any such tracking in a widely used consumer product.

    I could respond at great length to any thread or post claiming otherwise. When my disdain for anyone "foolish" enough to buy into this HOAX leaked out, I could deny that I was casting any personal aspersions and insist that I was only providing the benefit of my personal expertise.

    To "prove" my credibility, I could comment favorably on some other well known conspiracies, such as 9/11, agreeing with the view most likely held by others who would likely read my posts that it was an inside job.

    I could make it my Mission to:
    Beat this HOAX into submission and drive it from the forum I was on, for the good of the forum and of those posters still deluded (in my view) by this HOAX.
    Would I convince anyone? Well, perhaps a few, who had a casual interest in the topic and who noticed that I produced ten pounds of evidence for the one pound produced by anyone disagreeing with me, would allow that I seemed to have some good points and plenty of evidence.

    What would be the primary affect? People with a genuine interest in discussing whether there is or should be location tracking of millions of people using consumer location devices would soon realize that the forum I was active on was not a good place to have a sensible discussion of the topic, for they would realize that a bull-headed bovine would be all over their case anytime they raised any concern for or evidence of such position tracking on a mass scale.

    Would any of the above actions and reactions actually further the discussion of mass scale position tracking? No. Rather it would provide one more example of why finding the "truth" on an Internet forum is a hopeless task. Once again, most people would observe that discussion of some controversial topic has broken down into endless back and forth debates with an undercurrent of disrespect.

    If the popular concern that our smart phones are tracking our movements (and perhaps otherwise surveilling us?) really was a HOAX, propagated amongst the fearful sheeple to make them even more afraid, and if I actually did have good inside knowledge that this was the case, then I would have to learn an entirely different way of presenting my case to become an affective whistleblower on this matter.
    Last edited by Paul; 14th May 2011 at 21:25.
    -- Formerly known as "ThePythonicCow", aka "Cow", "PCow", "TPC", "PC", "Mooster", ...

  29. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    blufire (14th May 2011), DoubleHelix (14th May 2011), Fred259 (14th May 2011), greybeard (14th May 2011), heyokah (15th May 2011), Ilie Pandia (15th May 2011), meeradas (17th May 2011), mondaze (14th May 2011), observer (14th May 2011), Taurean (15th May 2011)

  30. Link to Post #137
    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th March 2010
    Location
    Inverness-----Scotland
    Age
    68
    Posts
    4,876
    Thanks
    8,716
    Thanked 23,461 times in 3,828 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    Im with Paul
    The powers that be dont have to be all powerful you just have to believe they are---- much cheaper.
    Gobels said If you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.
    Whilst conspiracy forum are of value they naturally attract people who want to find the conspiracy -- the enemy.
    So are easy game for those who promote fear by rumor and innuendo.
    Its a bit like "I would believe anything of these guys"-- so guess what you do.
    There is either evidence that can be agreed by all or there isent.

    The scientific mind investigates without pre-judging the end result and looks for fact.

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient.

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

  31. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to greybeard For This Post:

    DoubleHelix (14th May 2011), Fred259 (14th May 2011), linz2d (14th May 2011)

  32. Link to Post #138
    Avalon Member dan i el's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th January 2011
    Location
    Leipzig, DE
    Posts
    381
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 701 times in 247 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    Where I live it seems recently that the effects of Rayleigh scattering and supersaturation occur simultaneously and in a matter of one minute to the next and seemingly governed by the clock too. How strange that at almost exactly the same time almost everyday this last week, that clear blue skies are suddenly swathed with so many visible flying craft leaving tracks and X's to rapidly form a artificial Cirrus soup. Super saturation is obviously a nippy bugger.
    "Thus, the task is not so much to see what no one yet has seen, but to think what nobody yet has thought about that which everybody sees."
    — Arthur Schopenhauer

  33. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dan i el For This Post:

    ace (14th May 2011), Fred259 (14th May 2011)

  34. Link to Post #139
    England Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    8th January 2011
    Location
    cheshire
    Age
    54
    Posts
    391
    Thanks
    1,015
    Thanked 1,195 times in 304 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    a very useful analogy paul, thank you. i have deliberately stayed away from this thread for the very reasons to which you allude. nothing i can say will effect fred's persistant and vehement rebuttals... Fred you are to be commended on your tenacity. I know what i see, and its not white rabbits!

  35. Link to Post #140
    Great Britain Avalon Member Fred259's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Posts
    815
    Thanks
    1,702
    Thanked 1,322 times in 509 posts

    Default Re: Chemtrails don't exist

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Posted by Kerrigan (here)
    I'd like to add my experiences with what I believe is chemtrails.

    I work in an 10th floor office, with windows all around me. Looking outside is beautiful, I see from my desk the Montréal stadium and the magnificent Mount Royal. On sunny days, I've been really concern by lingering trails in the skies.
    Read what she types Paul, she is concerned…so don’t you think we have a responsibility to tell her the truth and relieve her concern or do we just leave her to be concerned.
    Don’t be concerned Kerrigan, it’s a deception.
    Quote There is a flying road of commercial planes that passes right by window. All the commercial planes leave no trails, or trails that linger max 1min. They always passes by the same flying road.
    The relative humidity is less than 100%.

    Quote However, there are other types of planes, that looks like commercial planes, except they are all white. Their flying road is irregular, creating X and parallel lines of lingering trails. Those trails leave a thick, white cloud that does not disperse. I see them from my desk, and observe what they become with time.
    Kerrigan, you are kind of special because Montreal area gets all the inbound and outbound transatlantic traffic together with Canadian flights.

    All white aircraft are not really white they just look like that because they have come from perhaps as far as the Middle East 10/12 hrs and have been in a -60C enviroment for all that time. It’s known as cold soaked. It’s a bit like hoar frost…

    Quote After 2 hours, the trail is larger, less thick, and comes down in altitude. The more it falls, the more foggy it looks. It seems to suspend in the air, gradually enlarging with time. And after 4 hours, the trails are not visible, only a curtain of foggy, gray covers the sky, at low altitude.
    Its larger because its dissipating. Eventually it spreads into cirrostratus cloud, spreading over the whole sky… I think this is what you are describing…

    Quote The two pass days, Thursday and Friday have been particularly intense. I've seen white planes, with no trails, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they start creating lingering trails.
    If an aircraft is in cold-60C where the relative humidity is less than 100% it cant turn white. As soon as it moves into an airmass where RH is 100% it will turn white…

    Kerrigan, When you leave the house for work on a winters morning after a nights frost what colour is your car?.. White….yea...

    Quote I have read this thread trying to convince myself that these are normal trails. When Fred said that humidity is a big factor to consider, I went and check it for Montréal yesterday.

    At or close to 100% relative humidity at altitude cloud and contrails will form.

    For both days, the humidity was* 40% and less... the sky was clear in the morning around 8, and at 2pm, it was almost completely and uniformly gray, except small spots. I am in a learning process, I might be wrong, of course, but...
    * Its where the aircraft is...

    Im glad you ask about relative humidity, at least someone has been reading this! It needs to be 100% where the aircraft is.


    Montreal gets a log of fog from the St Lawrence. Fog / clouds / contrails will only form when the relative humidity is 100%. It doesn’t matter where it is your back yard or 35,000ft.

    Driving along the road in fog relative humidity is 100%, you go into the clear relative humidity is now 80%, back into the fog, relative humidity is again 100% back into the clear its now 80% etc.

    Quote I still do believe that chemtrails exist and that Montreal is spread regularly.
    I know you do because you have been reading truther sites, and they all copy each other.

    This is an attack on the truth movement, by the same people who control the media. They are trying to scare you believing that Air Canada are spraying the people….its shocking if that were happening the military would be taking Harper at gunpoint.! Don’t you think this would effect them also…don’t be scared Kerrigan. What have I to gain by telling lies to you…

  36. The Following User Says Thank You to Fred259 For This Post:

    Kerrigan (15th May 2011)

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts