Banning for misalignment

[buckminster fuller]

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.

I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.

The pole results right now is :

Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%

Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%

Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.

Peace

How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban.
I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.

Who said that ? I only wrote about the poles results. This pole is not about chico, it concerns him since he's been banned based on this very subjective rule that is the subject of the pole. So the people who voted in majority, de facto, are against this precise rule, or at least don't agree with it, hence with the reason why chico has been banned...
I'm aware of the low number of participants, yet, as for now, more than 2500 views for this thread. The fact that only 57 people dared to vote shows 2 things :
1- I believe that a great number of them don't take it as it is their responsibility to inquire subjects that yet concern everyone. From a communitarian perspective, and I believe this forum is a community.. do those voices count ?
2- I think some of them don't feel like taking side, since anyone on this forum can be ruled out in a snap if he appears NOT not to be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum. I know the pole is blind, yet, the psychology behind it is at work...

This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.

Where anti-negativity leads to negate the obvious ? What is negative is the feeling of suspicion that lies dormant in this forum today. And the recent events were not taken as an opportunity by the moderators to remove some of its weight. The purpose of this forum is, if I'm not wrong, to provide a platform for whistle-blowers and an opened forum for the sharing and analysis of the information that comes with it ? How could such endeavours be promoted in an environment where members can be kicked out at will..? I'm not implying anything here, but it is a matter of sustainable development for the forum. A matter of trust.

The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.

I don't think his approach failed, the forum failed him. You're right that 57 votes is really not much, not much at all compared to how many people did thank him on the forum for his wise words and his concern for all.

Peace

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.

I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.

The pole results right now is :

Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%

Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%

Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.

Peace

How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.

This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.

The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.

The other view is this, I didn't vote as neither of the options represent my view.
So, the low turn out could be the poll is too narrow in the options.

[Karma Ninja]

Posted by sandy (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.

I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.

The pole results right now is :

Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%

Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%

Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.

Peace

How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.

This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.

The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.

Dear Karma Ninja,

Personally , everything you wrote makes me very sad. The world needs unity in diversity not division because of diversity.

Hi Sandy

I am sorry for making you sad, it was never my intention. If you reread my posts concerning this thread and chico's being banned, you will see that I was engaged in discussing an alternative way for chico to deliver his message and was sad to see him get banned. The ban literally happened while I was writing a reply to chico. I support chico's right to be a member but dispute the findings of a poll that only has 1.6% participation. We just had an election in our country and are worried that only 60% of our population voted. I just mention those numbers to Buckminster so that there is no mistaking the massive margin for error in the poll and how no conclusions can be drawn from those same numbers. The mods asked that this poll not be started due to the divisive nature of the question. I am walking down the middle road here supporting both sides in effect.

I am all for unity in diversity and my support for chico being banned stems only from my acceptance that the decision is out of my hands. I hope my explanation can show you this and if so please accept my apology for the confusion.

Peace as always...

[Karma Ninja]

Posted by Lord Sidious (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)

Posted by buckminster fuller (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.

I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.

The pole results right now is :

Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%

Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%

Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.

Peace

How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.

This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.

The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.

The other view is this, I didn't vote as neither of the options represent my view.
So, the low turn out could be the poll is too narrow in the options.

Your opinions are starting to grow on me LS

[sandy]

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)

Posted by sandy (here)

Posted by Karma Ninja (here)
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.

This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.

The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.

Dear Karma Ninja,

Personally , everything you wrote makes me very sad. The world needs unity in diversity not division because of diversity.

Hi Sandy

I am sorry for making you sad, it was never my intention. If you reread my posts concerning this thread and chico's being banned, you will see that I was engaged in discussing an alternative way for chico to deliver his message and was sad to see him get banned. The ban literally happened while I was writing a reply to chico. I support chico's right to be a member but dispute the findings of a poll that only has 1.6% participation. We just had an election in our country and are worried that only 60% of our population voted. I just mention those numbers to Buckminster so that there is no mistaking the massive margin for error in the poll and how no conclusions can be drawn from those same numbers. The mods asked that this poll not be started due to the divisive nature of the question. I am walking down the middle road here supporting both sides in effect.

I am all for unity in diversity and my support for chico being banned stems only from my acceptance that the decision is out of my hands. I hope my explanation can show you this and if so please accept my apology for the confusion.

Peace as always...

Gee Karma Ninja,

I sure didn't mean for my post to be taken personally and I should have been more clear. My sadness comes in how much we as a community here at Avalon emulates the world at large.............people who just don't want the waters to do anything but run smooth for the most part.

I too like peace but I'm sure not adverse ever for supporting and standing up for "what is the right thing to do" based on my values, beliefs, etc. I often get in trouble (or use too) especially in the workforce for taking a stand for the right thing to do but I was never fired as doing the right thing and being condemned for it never holds water anywhere in the real world. That could be why this issue won't die down here as I believe what Chico was trying to do was far deeper and the right thing than many have truly comprehended IMHO.

I like what your intentions are and also agree that often finding the middle road can create a win/win in the end.

[nearing]

(((((((((((Daft Ada)))))))))))

Thoughts are with you. Speedy recovery!

[Karma Ninja]

Posted by sandy (here)

Gee Karma Ninja,

I sure didn't mean for my post to be taken personally and I should have been more clear. My sadness comes in how much we as a community here at Avalon emulates the world at large.............people who just don't want the waters to do anything but run smooth for the most part.

I too like peace but I'm sure not adverse ever for supporting and standing up for "what is the right thing to do" based on my values, beliefs, etc. I often get in trouble (or use too) especially in the workforce for taking a stand for the right thing to do but I was never fired as doing the right thing and being condemned for it never holds water anywhere in the real world. That could be why this issue won't die down here as I believe what Chico was trying to do was far deeper and the right thing than many have truly comprehended IMHO.

I like what your intentions are and also agree that often finding the middle road can create a win/win in the end.

Sandy,

Your kind words are important to me and thank you for them. We both can remain in the middle of the road. There is plenty of room and I won't hog a lane. I sure know better than to mess with a lady from the prairies!

I think the whole issue is too pervasive for the mods to have not taken some notice and I am confident they have learned something from this as well. I have read a great deal of wisdom from their comments. Time will tell but I am ready to accept the decisions and move on from this issue.

Hope the sun shines bright in Saskatchewan!

[Bill Ryan]

------

Hi, All:

A quick note here. I've taken the last few days away from the forum, and have been working on other things. (Life goes on outside the Avalon Forum - as some but not all members may be aware!)

Regarding the subject of the thread, very few people understand how this works. Andy's 'poll' is naive. There are many more options.

For 6 months now we have been asking people to apply before joining the forum. We take the applications (and the process) very seriously, and a lot of applicants are denied. The new mods and I have worked carefully on the message we send them. (In Richard's day it was far more brutal.)

Sometimes we make a mistake, and when someone gets back to us with a genuine plea for acceptance and reconsideration, we all look at that person again. Manny will not mind my mentioning that he applied three times (or was it four?). We've all learned a lot from Manny. And I say that seriously. I love the guy.

Sometimes we ask for more information, and the applicant writes more, answering our questions. And sometimes we just say "no thanks", in the nicest way we can. We take the job very seriously, and the mods spend much more time considering applications than you would ever believe. (New mods Donna and Karelia will confirm.)

The point is this. I would like everyone (especially you, Andy), to understand this.

• We look over everything we can find about the information someone provides.
• We look at their posts on other forums to see their style, their mindset, their values, and their attitude.
• We look at their blogs and websites.
• We look them up on the net (and you'd be surprised what we find sometimes).
• I check the 150,000 e-mails I've kept since 2006 to see if they've ever written to me before, and if so, what they said and why. (Ace will confirm this, yes?)

That's how proud of this community we are. That's how much we care. Believe me, if we did not do this, the environment would be like Godlike Productions.

So. Listen up.

Sometimes we make a mistake. The criterion is:

After a certain number of new member posts on the forum (maybe 10, maybe 100, maybe even 1000), we ask ourselves this question (and we can do this at any time):

If we'd known [... fill in this gap with anything you like ...] about this person when they first applied -- would we have invited them?

If the answer is No - then they are often uninvited. We're just correcting our error.

It's that simple. Nothing really to do with forum guidelines. It's to do with considering their application retrospectively.

Certainly nothing to do with nation-states or constitutions. This is not a public place. It's a private gathering, by invitation only. JFK's admirable rhetoric does not apply.

If you don't like this restaurant, just go and find another one. It's cool. If you hate the place (or its owner ), why did you come here anyway?

Moreover, if you look like you're going to wreck the joint when all we want to do is provide our guests with some wonderful nourishment, then we may throw you out. And we have the right to do that. Period.

And: it's not really about 'rules' that are broken. (Andy, we know that you have been really careful not to break any rules or breach any guidelines - it's interesting to watch!)

It's about whether, if we'd had the gift of precognition when you applied, would we have accepted you.

And we leave you with that question to ponder. It's really about intentions.

Not nearly so much about the words: words are just one of many clues about what the communicator's intentions really are. There are many ways to read people.

[SKAWF]

so why is it, that instead of me spending time considering how to deliver my point, on stuff like this issue,
i spend most of it writing deleting and rewriting through fear that you'll holiday me for nothing or ban me?

[Karma Ninja]

Because you care about being a part of this community?

Posted by SKAWF (here)
so why is it, that instead of me spending time considering how to deliver my point, on stuff like this issue,
i spend most of it writing deleting and rewriting through fear that you'll holiday me for nothing or ban me?

[karelia]

Posted by SKAWF (here)
so why is it, that instead of me spending time considering how to deliver my point, on stuff like this issue,
i spend most of it writing deleting and rewriting through fear that you'll holiday me for nothing or ban me?

Perhaps it is because communicating in writing is not easy for some, and you know this. So, in order to get across what you mean clearly and plainly, you think hard about it, which results in a lot of deleting and rewriting.

I confirm Bill's description of the application process. I'm amazed how much time and effort goes into it on the mod side. I'm amazed at some applicants, too, both in a wtf way and in an I'm-in-awe way, and that after just one afternoon.

[SKAWF]

well yeah.
the thing is, i DO want to be here.
and i would say that some of those who have voiced their concerns WANTED to be here too.
which is why i constantly try to make my point in a way that wont cause me grief or get me banned.
we are welcome to have a problem with policy as long as we do it somewhere else.

well the FACT that i'm still here, is a measure of my commitment,
and i struggle to make the point because i know how delicate things are.
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.

i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.

steve

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by SKAWF (here)
well yeah.
the thing is, i DO want to be here.
and i would say that some of those who have voiced their concerns WANTED to be here too.
which is why i constantly try to make my point in a way that wont cause me grief or get me banned.
we are welcome to have a problem with policy as long as we do it somewhere else.

well the FACT that i'm still here, is a measure of my commitment,
and i struggle to make the point because i know how delicate things are.
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.

i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.

steve

Why all the stress?
I never got banned, why would you?
There is criticism and stirring.

[Karma Ninja]

Posted by SKAWF (here)
well yeah.
the thing is, i DO want to be here.
and i would say that some of those who have voiced their concerns WANTED to be here too.
which is why i constantly try to make my point in a way that wont cause me grief or get me banned.
we are welcome to have a problem with policy as long as we do it somewhere else.

well the FACT that i'm still here, is a measure of my commitment,
and i struggle to make the point because i know how delicate things are.
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.

i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.

steve

I must add that I am glad to have you here. If some of our past members had shown as much consideration they would be here too. Andywright who started this poll has shown a similar amount of consideration and he has hit on a hot button topic and I see him browsing this thread right now so he is here too. I believe he has been commended in Bills comments for handling the issue with discretion and maturity. We all CAN voice our opinions here. However we should be mindful that our posts show respect and that we don't lose sight of the intentions of this site. It can be a fine line but we should all learn to walk it.

I might feel differently if I were on the receiving end as you point out... I will continue to avoid placing myself there. I have deleted comments and decided to sleep on an issue, only to come back the next day and not address what ticked me off the night before too. That is part of what I agree is contributing to this forum.

Again my friend I am glad to have you here!

[karelia]

Posted by SKAWF (here)
<snip>
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.

It's always been my understanding that I have a right to be puzzled about a decision to remove someone for a forum, but I have no right to make assumptions or even base my own opinion on the information given by just one person. In a forum, there is always stuff going on behind the scenes that members don't know anything about. Then add to that the fact that mods aren't omniscient; they make mistakes and errors just like you and I and the neighbour. And then you have the trolls, flamers, disruptors, whatever you want to call them, the ones who come here, despite safety nets of the application process, to do nothing but flame and disrupt.

i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.
steve

I didn't see you as a trouble maker.
I'm sure I've been at the receiving end; at least I'm sure someone tried telling me about integrity. It's just that if they weren't walking the talk, then they could have accused me of anything, and I wouldn't have taken notice. The thing is that there is still a lot of ego-related issues, here as well as elsewhere. So perhaps just leave your ego at the front door? That can be quite liberating because the fear factor goes down tremendously.

[DeDukshyn]

A distinction is needed here. This poll tries to make a hidden implication that "Anyone appearing to NOT be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum ..." is merely a "dissenting voice". This may or may not be true and is not predictable. However, the only other option in the poll is outright banning - an end of a spectrum, so to speak, that may not resonate with many, so the other option for those who want to partake is "accept as dissenting voice", after all that sounds pretty positive. Checking the "accept as dissenting voice" box will have you inadvertantly accept the implication that no one should be banned for any reason, to present as a facts from a poll.

-Andy, you should get into politics ;-)

[SKAWF]

i was given a two week holiday for insulting someone.
i didnt insult anyone
what i DID do was make a balanced observation, that was all.
i got more compliments and messages of support during that thread than any other, oh, and banned for 2 weeks.
it makes you think twice before posting.



i should add, i'm not hostile about it.
but even in the cold light of day
i have difficulty balancing it out

[Lord Sidious]

Posted by SKAWF (here)
i was given a two week holiday for insulting someone.
i didnt insult anyone
what i DID do was make a balanced observation, that was all.
i got more compliments and messages of support during that thread than any other, oh, and banned for 2 weeks.
it makes you think twice before posting.



i should add, i'm not hostile about it.
but even in the cold light of day
i have difficulty balancing it out

I can see what you mean.
I don't know the example you speak of, but I can empathise with you for wondering why you got banned.
I had runins with mods on a computer forum I used to frequent as they were left leaning and I am not.
I haven't seen anything that would make me think you are a stirrer.

[Limor Wolf]

Posted by andywight (here)

Posted by Limor (here)
I would like to say that the general intent is that the forum will always sail on a smooth waters,however as Anchor said earlier:" people here know when they are skating on thin ice".

Hmmm! if I was at all paranoid, which of course I'm not, I would almost think that Limor's last statement was meant for me.

I think a more apt statement to make, Limor please excuse my arrogance for wanting to edit you, would be that the whole of the "human race" right now is skating on thin ice!

Meant to you? why would one want to take my last sentence and attribute it to himself ?? Mmm...interesting...

[ace]

Posted by Limor (here)

Posted by andywight (here)

Posted by Limor (here)
I would like to say that the general intent is that the forum will always sail on a smooth waters,however as Anchor said earlier:" people here know when they are skating on thin ice".

Hmmm! if I was at all paranoid, which of course I'm not, I would almost think that Limor's last statement was meant for me.

I think a more apt statement to make, Limor please excuse my arrogance for wanting to edit you, would be that the whole of the "human race" right now is skating on thin ice!

Meant to you? why would one want to take my last sentence and attribute it to himself ?? Mmm...interesting...

We have a saying in Liverpool,

"If the cap fits, wear it"

Ace