Banning for misalignment

[andywight]

Here is the reason Paul gave for banning Chicodoodoo from Avalon (a quote from the Avalon forum Guidelines):

"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."

There are several problems with this.

First, it is based on what "appears" to be, rather than what is. Appearances can be deceiving, and they are highly subjective. It also doesn’t help that the written word we rely on in the forums is often the source of both gross and subtle misunderstandings.

Second, the purpose and energy of the forum is very loosely defined and open to extremely broad interpretation. In this case I could argue that, Chicodoodoo was trying hard to follow the purpose and energy of the forum. The purpose of the forum from my perspective was to create a model community where people work together to solve problems, as well as being a safe place to discuss the pursuit of truth. The energy of the forum from my perspective was to be the change we wish to see in the world.

Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.

How does the Avalon community view this question?

[Seikou-Kishi]

Oh, another one? I'll soon know this merry dance off by heart if somebody doesn't change the record lol

[Dorok]

Oh no...should we say goodbye to you now Andy?

There are already 2 mods watching a thread with only 2 posts...

[perfectresonance]

(sigh)

How does the Avalon community view this question?

"Sir? Why are you insisting on slamming your head into a wall?"

"Because it feels so good when I stop".


I challenge you to see how good it will feel when we all stop hitting our heads on this particular wall.


Do you really think another thread will have another outcome?


99.9% of active members are happily carrying on making excellent use out of this Forum and it's collective wisdom.


You may consider this before deciding to align or not to.

[Lost Soul]

I think use of this forum is at the discretion of Bill and his staff. His forum, his playground, his rules.

[truthseekerdan]

You should have a third option: "Sent to Ignore List"


JK

[andywight]

I would hope members that are not happy with this thread to read Mr Davis's post in its entirety.

Posted by blake (here)

I am curious as to why any intellectual discussion, on any non violent topic, could possibly trigger such intense criticism, and the seemingly enforced limitation on freedom of speech that some commenting on this thread seem to be advocating whether they realize it or not.

Since no one is forced to read any thread, why does anyone object to any topic on any one thread as long as it is non violent and does not blazingly be rude to anyone? It seems that you, and others prefer that there be limitation on what can and can not be discussed. Why? I don’t believe any thread has any power, except to share knowledge, opinions, and maybe, just maybe widen someone’s perspective to see more than they didn’t see before. They may not agree, but at least maybe they can begin to understand the other human’s perspective; and isn’t that the first step to peaceful co existence?

I guess I am just so puzzled because even if there was an ongoing thread of interested parties talking about this issue about how Avalon could be different, it is just virtual keyboard warriors talking….. no coup could actually take place! But more importantly no one is forced to read it. I may love to be on the debate team, but some people may prefer to be in the band. Isn’t the Avalon forum big enough for us all? Or do we really have to choose? That is what I feel all those reading this particular thread, who were upset by the thread, is forcing a point on, that should not have to be forced. Freedom of speech is healthy on so many levels for all, when done with respect.

People can talk about love and light all they want, words can be, after all very cheap. But in my opinion, until right action is shown by humans seeking to understand those they may disagree with, as long as people have fear where no real threat exists, then humans will continue to mistreat each other and this new model of society that Mr. Ryan speaks of will never come to be.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

Thank you Mr Davis, you are a bright beacon in these oh so muddy waters.

[Omni]

I'm all for banning people who are disruptive, trolls, rude people, etc. It's part of what makes this forum such a great group of people. Would I unsubscribe the same people as who have been? Who knows.

I think Chico is a great guy. If it was my forum I wouldn't have banned him. But this isn't my forum.

Harmony is a rare commodity on this planet. Must we really keep banging the same drum here? Valid or not, I'm tired of the threads being played out in dissent here. Must we make the mods jobs harder? This is a private community. It's a dictatorship. My forum is one too. If you don't like it, move on... There are so many great people here. You don't need to focus so much on Bill, and the mods IMO.

I have compassion for the mods, who I bet have a good amount of stress intake for what goes on here. I feel modding at any big forum is like a spiritual/discernment test. Especially Avalon. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just what I'm intuitively getting.

I made a thread not long ago voicing my dissent about one of Bill's/Inelia's theories/beliefs. Albeit very respectfully. I did not get censored. An admin even thanked my post. It's not like all dissent is censored... I think it's the specific manner in which it is done that could be the problem...

Posted by Dorok (here)
Oh no...should we say goodbye to you now Andy?

There are already 2 mods watching a thread with only 2 posts...

My thoughts too Dorok.

[Dorok]

I'm as stubborn as they come about principles and hypocrisy, and there are a couple mods here who can attest to that.

However distasteful I may find it, I have had to change my own perception about this place from 'how I think things should be' to a trickier version of weighing my benefit of participating here against anything I perceive is imperfect. It's similar to how I resolve to continuing living in the USA when the gov't knuckleheads continue destroying the principles it was conceived with. It might not be a popular view with TPTB here, but if I can live with the Patriot Act, I can tolerate how the mods perform their duties.

I will strive to continue here in good standing as long as I get value for it.

For those who read this and feel the need to respond to me in a negative fashion with allusion to this being a craven or selfish attitude, I invite you to keep it to yourself. You will push buttons that will invoke very nasty feelings from me, and that would be far out of alignment with this forum. As a gesture to you in advance, I assure you that I have already begun not posting some replies and not thanking some of your posts.

Anyone else feel a chill?

[perfectresonance]

Andy, a straight question if I may: Are you following the path of others before you where you are going to intentionally create contentious threads to the point where the mods really have no other choice left but to unsubscribe your account?

And does this trigger the next person on the schedule to come out to protest your "sudden" and "behind the scenes" banning without debate, parole or any recourse?

Because to me, if you are not doing that, you better stop, because you are accidentally doing the very same thing, and we wouldn't want to lose you as a member by accident.

[andywight]

Posted by perfectresonance (here)
Andy, a straight question if I may: Are you following the path of others before you where you are going to intentionally create contentious threads to the point where the mods really have no other choice left but to unsubscribe your account?

And does this trigger the next person on the schedule to come out to protest your "sudden" and "behind the scenes" banning without debate, parole or any recourse?

Because to me, if you are not doing that, you better stop, because you are accidentally doing the very same thing, and we wouldn't want to lose you as a member by accident.

Mr Perfectresonance,

A straight answer if I may, no! and thank you for your concern.

[Anchor]

Posted by andywight (here)
First, it is based on what "appears" to be, rather than what is. Appearances can be deceiving, and they are highly subjective. It also doesn’t help that the written word we rely on in the forums is often the source of both gross and subtle misunderstandings.

It is not beyond the majority of members to trust the moderators?

Mistakes are made which can be corrected.

More often than not though, they were not mistakes, they are spun into mistakes for the purposes of starting divisive arguments.

Posted by andywight (here)
Second, the purpose and energy of the forum is very loosely defined and open to extremely broad interpretation. In this case I could argue that, Chicodoodoo was trying hard to follow the purpose and energy of the forum. The purpose of the forum from my perspective was to create a model community where people work together to solve problems, as well as being a safe place to discuss the pursuit of truth. The energy of the forum from my perspective was to be the change we wish to see in the world.

You may be right on this, and Bill should address that in my view. However what this forum is definately not about is the satisfying the majority view. This forum is Bills and you will like the way he runs it

What this forum is also not about it is cultivating and magnifying divisive issues that directly affect the forum, is administration or leadership. If you want to keep doing that, just leave instead.

Posted by andywight (here)
Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.

So what? Firstly it is not a public forum and is not accountable in that way. Most people int his position if asked to leave wont - like noisy drunks at a party, and end up having to ejected.

Posted by andywight (here)
How does the Avalon community view this question?

I think it is a tired old argument, I think that it demonstrates clearly to me that it is certainly time for you to leave and everyone else that does not like the way this forum has turned out these days should join you.

Do I sound pissed off?

With threads like this, yes I am.

John..

[andywight]

Posted by Anchor (here)
I think it is a tired old argument, I think that it demonstrates clearly to me that it is certainly time for you to leave and everyone else that does not like the way this forum has turned out these days should join you.

Do I sound pissed off?

With threads like this, yes I am.

John..

Not at all and thank you for your input.

[Decibellistics]

This is how I figure. Say what you have to say, show evidence if you have any, and go about the conversation in a cordial manner without being a pious ass about it.

I personally don't agree with things on the forum, and have had flak for shooting out ideas and opinions.....it can be a good thing.

But there is energy vampirism and reaction. People tend to hook people and start an unending argument based on A. them being right and B. condescending tone and or script. and on a more esoteric malevolent level, to steal people's energy and get off on the rush of the conflict or the diffusion of conflict in feigned ways.

The firey burn within the gut causes a reaction to things said. Which can cause you to bite more or less. And so it begins. You, No you, No this, No that, well you blah blah, no if you look at this then you will understand, well you still havent this and that. Notice the you!

Basically a steamy pile of ****.

So considering that differing opinion can cause a heated debate.....one has to realize that a forum, by the ancient greek standard is a place to gather and conversate and learn. But it isn't a place to take a stance of power over a person due to said experience and opinion or importance of self.

I think that's the real issue at hand. People won't be banned for a differing opinion, we can all agree to disagree, but people will definately be banned if they are going to act like a dick.

So it boils down to the art of your argument. Can you be a kind loving soul and share knowledge based on personal research, personal experience, and a bit of personal conviction and background as to why you think you are right?

Debunking a topic can be an absolutely essential tool, but when the knowledge of a researched subject causes you to think other people are absolutely retarded for believing in a certain way is a sad sad thing..I am guilty of such in my youth, and it causes severe depression, and I still struggle with it. Back then murder and anger to the "infidel" (too soon lol......PTB and general group think and separation and factional aspects that are employed onto society.) But now I realize that you have to look at it from the view of a mother. A mother who is saddened because the one's she loves around them, who are of the same genetic make up of them, are being tricked and molded into ways of life and thinking that are absolutely detrimental for there well being.

The only thing a person can do is try to show the person closest to them at the moment is loved, and that there is a grandiose universe surrounding us that we have been told doesn't exist. But we are remembering that it does. And the beauty of this realization fills one with vigor, and strength, and excitement, and happiness, and a longing to learn as much as they possibly can from all different types of mindset, culture, and opinion. This is what I think humanity is struggling with. We have an uncanny ability to melt into modes of habit and pleasure and pride. And taken to the most serious levels it can cause people just as much of a withdrawal and fight that one would expect from a severe alcoholic or a heroin addict who is dopesick.

People have a long way to go for healing. But I think the image of what could be is a beautiful thing. I would hope it fuels people to want to detach and learn and experience. But we are battling a control system based around these negative institutions and beliefs. People have become too comfortable. Knowledge can be an arduous, yes, task, but we have so much **** in the way that at this point it is going to be a monumental task to rehabilitate.


NO OFFENSE. I absolutely hate when people on this forum call the general public sheeple. Are they under educated in topics of such, yes. Do they act in a herd mentality, yes. Can this lead to problems?...of course. But still these are your brethren. We need to learn how to coincide with one another in a group based effort based on knowledge....The whole point of corruption, and conspiracy, and the filtering and supression of knowledge is to make sure other people don't find out.....DUH. But this whole fiasco we are living in is caused by the separation into factions and the whole point of being part of one team is to win against another team. Sorry, I'm rambling again.......

Life is hard man. There's a million and one ways to collaborate and make things better. But people have been tricked into being lazy, and confrontational, and a billion different external factors that causes so much frustration, depression, boredom, and parasitic instances. And the sad part is, any person that tries to stand up and do something about it, will be ****ing murdered. It's a weird time, hopefully a massive amount of personal and individual work and maybe a lil divine intervention could cause inspiration for humanity to realize that the **** has got to go..........

Paix!

Liiiiiittle off topic LOL

[sunnyrap]

I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.

But, having participated in many online groups over the past dozen years, it just rarely fails to happen that peep's buttons get pushed by either understanding OR misunderstanding another's communication. For such times, there must be proper 'rules of engagement' for respectfully thrashing out differences. (just today, someone reminded me of the 'Duchess of Queensbury Rules', made popular in the John Wayne classic 'The Quiet Man'). This is what makes all the difference in keeping members and keeping a civil and respectful forum without resorting to real censorship. Clearly define the rules. Break 'em once, you are read the rules again and get a reprimand; break 'em twice, you are blocked for a period of time then put on parole; break 'em three times, you are permanently out of the group. This formula has worked well for many groups.

Just a suggestion. And as someone pointed out earlier: Bill's forum, Bill's rules of engagement. Everything else is just input.

[ThePythonicCow]

Nice rant, Decibellistics. I am going to Thank it, even though I didn't read every word carefully.

There is probably something in there I disagree with (given you said a mouthful and given I have many views.) There is even the risk that someone will taunt me with that Thanks and a quote from your rant, at some future point -- perhaps it might even be someone who has also objected vehemently to Bill Ryan noticing who thanked what in forming his views. What a twisted web we weave at times.

Good point on labeling people as "sheeple." I have done so. I might do well to remember your point the next time I am inclined to do so.

[perfectresonance]

Posted by sunnyrap (here)
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.

In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.



The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.

"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.

PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.

The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first.

[Malcolm Linus]

Posted by Anchor (here)

Posted by andywight (here)
Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.

So what? Firstly it is not a public forum and is not accountable in that way. Most people int his position if asked to leave wont - like noisy drunks at a party, and end up having to ejected.

All should have the opportunity to leave by his or her own choice, even if the end result will be their person ejected by force. It's a gentleman's attitude, and I would very much like to see those who choose to give their time to defend this community go the extra step here, as I suspect it would be a good reflection of Bill Ryan's ideals. In my opinion, it is not a great sacrifice to send a PM asking the person to leave before doing it by force. It would be a show of respect to those who appreciate the gentleman's way. An ejection without notice can seem brutal to the minds that observe.

[NancyV]

Posted by perfectresonance (here)

Posted by sunnyrap (here)
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.

In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.



The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.

"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.

PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.

The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first.

If the prize was a dinner date with YOU I would be tempted. You have such a great smile that I almost always cannot resist thanking your posts. In fact, I think you should remove your photo since it has undue influence in you getting more THANKS. This is obviously an unfair tactic!

Nancy

[jackovesk]

Posted by Decibellistics (here)
NO OFFENSE. I absolutely hate when people on this forum call the general public sheeple. Are they under educated in topics of such, yes. Do they act in a herd mentality, yes. Can this lead to problems?...of course. But still these are your brethren. We need to learn how to coincide with one another in a group based effort based on knowledge....The whole point of corruption, and conspiracy, and the filtering and supression of knowledge is to make sure other people don't find out.....DUH. But this whole fiasco we are living in is caused by the separation into factions and the whole point of being part of one team is to win against another team.

No Offense taken Decibellistics, I just used the word 'Sheeple' in one of my posts. Sorry...

I have a different view - I don't see the word 'Sheeple' as a Derogative term at all...

I see it as a term of 'Awakening', to question/challenge anothers view on the type of information one absorbs/listens to?

Have they heard both sides of the story, can they change their MSM/GOVT. diet and start questioning what they are being constantly fed Day In/Day Out?

In summary I don't find the word 'Sheeple' offensive or divisive that creates further dissension or discord...

To me its simply a word used to prompt a questioning of ones long-term belief system...